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The Face of Islam


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33 minutes ago, umbertino said:

Quote

my question is this...are muslims, muslims because of their skin color, because of their religious belief  or because they are from the middle east? 

End Quote

 

No, not only coming from the Middle East...There are muslims in Asia ( fmr soviet republics, Indonesia, Malaysia, parts of India, in Pakistan and Bangla Desh) ...there are many Muslims in Africa.l...In Europe of course and I'm sure also in Central and S.America, let alone the States and Canada..

 

And there are also white Europeans ( but not only Europeans) who converted to Islam for various reasons.....For love of a Muslim man/ woman and/ or  for personal conviction.....

Umb, thank you for your answer  but I actually was asking a rhetorical question to get everyone to think about the plan that God has for every man on the face of the earth regardless of nationality or race.  We only have 2 options here....heaven or hell...there is no in between.....sitting in the middle of the fence renders hell

 

...

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6 hours ago, learning all i can said:

Umb, thank you for your answer  but I actually was asking a rhetorical question to get everyone to think about the plan that God has for every man on the face of the earth regardless of nationality or race.  We only have 2 options here....heaven or hell...there is no in between.....sitting in the middle of the fence renders hell

 

...

 

Ok LAIC....Point being that if you or myself or even LGD or any other person in this Forum for that matter might have happened to be born in an Islamic Country....Then, sorry but we'd be all Muslims ourselves ....It's that simple...And the contrary also holds valid

 

 

Then, about the extremism...That has touched most religions as  we have had Islamic extremism, Christian Extremism, Jewish extremism ( kind reminder: Mr Rabin was killed by an ISRAELI, not a Palestinian).......

 

Christians themselves in the past when conquering / raiding foreign lands would commit unmentionable massacres killing 100's or even 1,000's......In the name of God....I do not think HE approved

Edited by umbertino
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4 hours ago, umbertino said:

Christians themselves in the past when conquering / raiding foreign lands would commit unmentionable massacres killing 100's or even 1,000's......In the name of God....I do not think HE approved

This is where you are wrong. Maybe when you talk about the crusades, but their ideology was the same then as it is now. However, my point is this, there are many times in the BIBLE where GOD commanded the Israelites to kill, all in his name. So, there are times he does approve. Look at when the LORD returns, he comes on a white horse with a sword in hand, ( out of the BIBLE). There will be killing to be done and it will be when evil is vanquished. 

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8 hours ago, 8th ID said:

This is where you are wrong. Maybe when you talk about the crusades, but their ideology was the same then as it is now. However, my point is this, there are many times in the BIBLE where GOD commanded the Israelites to kill, all in his name. So, there are times he does approve. Look at when the LORD returns, he comes on a white horse with a sword in hand, ( out of the BIBLE). There will be killing to be done and it will be when evil is vanquished. 

You are absolutely  right 8th ID....the OT is full of mass killings.  Many by Gods own hand or his Angel's and many, many that He delivered up for Israel's taking.

13 hours ago, umbertino said:

 

Ok LAIC....Point being that if you or myself or even LGD or any other person in this Forum for that matter might have happened to be born in an Islamic Country....Then, sorry but we'd be all Muslims ourselves ....It's that simple...And the contrary also holds valid

 

 

Then, about the extremism...That has touched most religions as  we have had Islamic extremism, Christian Extremism, Jewish extremism ( kind reminder: Mr Rabin was killed by an ISRAELI, not a Palestinian).......

 

Christians themselves in the past when conquering / raiding foreign lands would commit unmentionable massacres killing 100's or even 1,000's......In the name of God....I do not think HE approved

Umb,  there are many mass killings recorded in the OT.  Here are just a few

 

1.  The Flood (Genesis 6-8

2.   The cities of the plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah  (Gen. 18-19

3.   The Egyptian firstborn sons during the passover (Exodus 11-12

4.   The Canaanites under Moses and Joshua. (Numbers 21:2-3,  Deuteronomy 20:17,  and Joshua 6:17,21.

 

The 1st 3 examples of Gods own hands as there were no human agents involved.  In these mass killings either God himself or his Angel's carried out these killings directly.

 

#4, the mass killings of the Canaanites is a case of Gods people, the nation of Israel, which were commanded by God to attack and kill.  This was not genocide but Gods judgement and was intended to be expulsion  from the land that God had promised to Israel.  The mass killing was also because of the Canaanites wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4-6.  Their detestable  practices ( Deuteronomy 18:12 and in (Leviticus 18:24-25) God says; "Even the land was defiled; so I will punish it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants."  And yes, God has ordered mass killings and destruction and it was done in the name of the Lord.

 

Here is something for you to think about Umb........God gave Israel the land of milk and honey from the very beginning.  It was a covenant that God made with them.  No one but Israel will actually ever own this land except Israel.   Others may claim it, fight over it and even occupy it for a time but in the end Israel will have ALL that God has promised them.  This is what 8th ID is speaking of.  There will be mass killings again all that God may bring about his promised covenant.  Israel WILL HAVE ALL THAT HAS BEEN PROPHESIED.

 

As you can see here the Bible gives us the history of the beginnings,   the history of our present and the history of our future...The Bible gives us the answers to ALL OF OUR WHYS.  It's worth the read

Edited by learning all i can
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8 hours ago, 8th ID said:

This is where you are wrong. Maybe when you talk about the crusades, but their ideology was the same then as it is now. However, my point is this, there are many times in the BIBLE where GOD commanded the Israelites to kill, all in his name. So, there are times he does approve. Look at when the LORD returns, he comes on a white horse with a sword in hand, ( out of the BIBLE). There will be killing to be done and it will be when evil is vanquished. 

We live today in the Church Age, where Jesus commanded we ,"Turn the Other cheek". And "To love your enemies,....and pray for them ".

Having said that I know doing so is much easier than saying. I myself have taken a vow of non violence but that is not something everyone can do. 

You're also right that when Christ returns he will indeed have a sword and will definitely be of the mind for some gratuitous killing. But I think you're probably forgetting that will happen after the end of the Church Age. 

Matthew 24:14

At that time the world will revert back to days like unto before the Church Age. 

Remember, The Church Age began when the Holy Spirit was given to live INSIDE man. But with the Last Trump, the Trumpet of God will sound.....

1st Corinthians 15:52

And just like that, "He who restrains....will be taken out of the way " 2nd Thessalonians 2:7

 

Also let us not forget it was because of violence that God flooded the Earth.

Genesis 6:11

This should tell us what he thinks of violence. 

 

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45 minutes ago, ladyGrace'sDaddy said:

We live today in the Church Age, where Jesus commanded we ,"Turn the Other cheek". And "To love your enemies,....and pray for them ".

Having said that I know doing so is much easier than saying. I myself have taken a vow of non violence but that is not something everyone can do. 

You're also right that when Christ returns he will indeed have a sword and will definitely be of the mind for some gratuitous killing. But I think you're probably forgetting that will happen after the end of the Church Age. 

Matthew 24:14

At that time the world will revert back to days like unto before the Church Age. 

Remember, The Church Age began when the Holy Spirit was given to live INSIDE man. But with the Last Trump, the Trumpet of God will sound.....

1st Corinthians 15:52

And just like that, "He who restrains....will be taken out of the way " 2nd Thessalonians 2:7

 

Also let us not forget it was because of violence that God flooded the Earth.

Genesis 6:11

This should tell us what he thinks of violence. 

 

Yes, the earth was filled with violence (Gen.6:11) but there are more reasons for His judgement.

Wickedness increased to the degree that God had to destroy to cleanse (Gen 6:5.  Judgement was neccessary  not only because of evil v5, but they had no desire for godliness.  Sin of every kind was rampant.  The rulers commanded the peoples worship 

 

Lest we forget the sins of Seth and Cain.....then there was the corruption of race. The sons of God went into the daughters, married and had children.  The most important fact to remember is:  evil started seeping it's way into generational bloodlines so much it would have been certain to have an effect on the generations to come.  .  There is so much more for us to understand.  But yes violence was among the reasons for the flood.

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13 hours ago, 8th ID said:

This is where you are wrongThis is where you are wrong. Maybe when you talk about the crusades, but their ideology was the same then as it is now. However, my point is this, there are many times in the BIBLE where GOD commanded the Israelites to kill, all in his name. So, there are times he does approve. Look at when the LORD returns, he comes on a white horse with a sword in hand, ( out of the BIBLE). There will be killing to be done and it will be when evil is vanquished. 

 

Ok...Thanks for your contribution...I do respect it but do not share it....Sorry

 

And when you state "This is where you are wrong"....With all the due respect...I don't think so.... As I wrote Christians committed those massacres  "in the past"....But not only during the Crusades...Also after that....In Central and S. America ( let's not talk about N.America)...in the 16th century and on infact....In Africa also....

 

Let's not forget the simple fact the Christian Missionaries ( who usually do a great job anf can be deemed certainly commendable  for it) in the past did impose to those out there populations to convert to Christianity ( Politics, Religion and Trade were all mixed anyway as a way of conquest)....Centuries ago...But that was the way it used to be ...That the Missionaries'd think/believe they were doing good for the "savage Folks" for helping them somehow.....is not the point as they didn't ask for that....they were forced to and that's wrong....You can't simply force anybody to swallow something against their will...I'd deem that very Un-Christian infact

 

 

Let's agree to disagree

 

 

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Edited by umbertino
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The fact is this.

GOD never wants anybody to be forced to become a follower of his Son. It must come from the heart and be of a free choice. 

Any atrocities that are done in His name are just that, atrocities. 

They are performed for the most part by misguided, well intentioned over zealous people.

Some of those act were also performed by evil, greedy people. 

The bible says to go out and spread the word. NOT Go out and force people to accept the word or be punished if you don't. 

Any religion/man that demands obedience to the religion or die is a false religion. 

 

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7 hours ago, learning all i can said:

You are absolutely  right 8th ID....the OT is full of mass killings.  Many by Gods own hand or his Angel's and many, many that He delivered up for Israel's taking.

Umb,  there are many mass killings recorded in the OT.  Here are just a few

 

1.  The Flood (Genesis 6-8

2.   The cities of the plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah  (Gen. 18-19

3.   The Egyptian firstborn sons during the passover (Exodus 11-12

4.   The Canaanites under Moses and Joshua. (Numbers 21:2-3,  Deuteronomy 20:17,  and Joshua 6:17,21.

 

The 1st 3 examples of Gods own hands as there were no human agents involved.  In these mass killings either God himself or his Angel's carried out these killings directly.

 

#4, the mass killings of the Canaanites is a case of Gods people, the nation of Israel, which were commanded by God to attack and kill.  This was not genocide but Gods judgement and was intended to be expulsion  from the land that God had promised to Israel.  The mass killing was also because of the Canaanites wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4-6.  Their detestable  practices ( Deuteronomy 18:12 and in (Leviticus 18:24-25) God says; "Even the land was defiled; so I will punish it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants."  And yes, God has ordered mass killings and destruction and it was done in the name of the Lord.

 

Here is something for you to think about Umb........God gave Israel the land of milk and honey from the very beginning.  It was a covenant that God made with them.  No one but Israel will actually ever own this land except Israel.   Others may claim it, fight over it and even occupy it for a time but in the end Israel will have ALL that God has promised them.  This is what 8th ID is speaking of.  There will be mass killings again all that God may bring about his promised covenant.  Israel WILL HAVE ALL THAT HAS BEEN PROPHESIED.

 

As you can see here the Bible gives us the history of the beginnings,   the history of our present and the history of our future...The Bible gives us the answers to ALL OF OUR WHYS.  It's worth the read

Thanks LAIC, you put it in a much better why than I. Great minds...lol...I was thinking about all those examples listed, just didn’t have time to put them down. :tiphat:

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54 minutes ago, 8th ID said:

Thanks LAIC, you put it in a much better why than I. Great minds...lol...I was thinking about all those examples listed, just didn’t have time to put them down. :tiphat:

I know what you mean and besides that it would take numerous pages in this thread to list them.  I would even have to go back to the OT and refresh myself to list all the killings, but as we know, God wanted a holy people for Himself.   Most of his covenants to Israel were blessings or curses depending upon their obedience.  As you know, we have a just God,  He has always been long suffering and full of mercy but His judgement is always deserved as all are sinners and deserve death.  Many don't  understand how a loving God can bring about such destruction.  We only understand this when we truely know how Holy He is and how sinful we are and when we truely try to live His standards instead of our own.  It's impossible but his love and mercy shown thru when he sent is Son.  

 

It is so great to write to someone who truely understands what's going on in the Bible and knows these words are not my own but Gods very revelation to us.  I thank you for your time and your kind responses.  I just pray that all will come to know Him.....thank you

barb

btw...I still know so little but God grows me everyday. It is He that gives us the understanding at just the right time.  Wow. What a Saviour........

Edited by learning all i can
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The protest against President Trump got out of hand in St. Louis when a Muslim college student from Minneapolis attempted to burn down a Christian school, lighting four fires and endangering the lives of 33 children


Tnuza Jamal Hassan, a college student rom Minneapolis, has been charged with intentionally setting four fires at St. Catherine’s University in St. Paul to “protest” against President Trump.
A criminal complaint alleges 19-year-old Tnuza Jamal Hassan confessed to police that she started the fires on Wednesday because she had been reading about President Trump and the actions of the US military, and she felt she had to protest

Hassan has been charged with first-degree arson.
Hassan said this was the same thing that happened in the “Muslim land” and nobody cares if they get hurt, so why not do this?‘ the complaint stated.
The complaint, cited by the Minneapolis Star Tribune, says Hassan told police her intent was to “hurt people” and to “burn the Christian university to the ground.”
The Daily Mail reports the teenager was also quoted as telling police and arson investigators: “You guys are lucky that I don’t know how to build a bomb because I would have done that.”
On Friday, Hassan appeared in Ramsey County District Court and was charged with a single count of first-degree arson, reported Pioneer Press. She was then remanded back to the county jail Related:Arkansas: Muslim who murdered U.S. soldier demands halal food in prison
Officials say a sprinkler system prevented a dormitory fire from spreading to a day care center where 33 children and eight adults were present. 
The university said in a press release on Thursday that the fires were “contained, and no one was injured. There was damage to furnishings, but no structural damage to the impacted buildings.

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Why has the establishment and media suppressed this? Especially in New Zealand.

 

A devout mosque-going, jihadi to kill policeman whilst yelling allahu akbar, hoped he’d be killed in the process.

Martyrdom for the cause of jihad is halal with repeated promises of reward in the afterlife. One such:

 

Quran 47: 4-6 “So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah – never will He waste their deeds. He will guide them and amend their condition. And admit them to Paradise, which He has made known to them.”

MAN ADMITS RAMMING POLICE CAR, AXE ATTACK

By Rob Kidd, Otago Daily Time, September 20, 2019 (thanks to James):

A man has admitted ramming a police car and chasing an officer down the highway on foot with a tomahawk while yelling “Allahu Akbar”.After giving up the pursuit, Ruairi Kern Taylor (24), of Gore, returned to the empty police car, took to it with the weapon – causing more than $30,000 of damage – and was later found wearing a police hat and jacket while yelling excerpts from the Koran.

 

The man appeared in the Dunedin District Court yesterday, where he pleaded guilty to two counts of assault with a weapon and one of intentional damage.

He was remanded in custody and Judge Kevin Phillips said Taylor was facing an inevitable prison term at sentencing in December.

The court heard the defendant quit his job in Tapanui on the afternoon of September 4 when the unusual behaviour began.

First, Taylor went to a hardware store in Gore and bought a tomahawk, then went to his home nearby to retrieve a sheathed dive knife which he strapped to his leg.

He set off north in his Subaru Forester and when he saw a police patrol car, he U-turned to follow it.

 

Police say the man crashed his car into a patrol vehicle, then approached an officer in a...

Police say the man crashed his car into a patrol vehicle, then approached an officer in a threatening manner. Photo: Gregor Richardson

The officer turned into the local station and Taylor drove off.Several hours later, Constable Steven Treloar had pulled a motorist over for a routine check on State Highway1 in Allanton.

When Taylor saw the blue and red lights in the distance, he turned up the “religious music” playing on his stereo and slammed his vehicle into the back of the stationary police car.

Const Treloar’s head snapped back and rebounded into the windscreen as he was shunted into the vehicle he had pulled over.

Within seconds, Taylor had smashed his window with the axe.

 

The officer called for back-up before climbing over the central console and escaping from the passenger door.

As Const Treloar ran off, Taylor pursued him “with the tomahawk raised about his head for approximately 40 metres before giving up”.

“Throughout the attack the defendant was yelling `Allahu Akbar’,” a police summary said.

Const Treloar was whisked away from the scene by a member of the public while Taylor returned to the abandoned police car.

He smashed both headlights and two side windows and made various holes and dents in the car, causing $31,7420 of damage.

 

The defendant, the court heard, then rummaged around in the car, donned police garments and began yelling religious passages.

He was arrested without incident, police said.

While Taylor told officers he was not a practising Muslim, the imam at Mataura Masjid Islamic Centre, Zamberi Mat Yunus, said the defendant had attended prayer two or three times.

He believed Taylor had recently moved from the North Island and was disappointed to hear about the violent incident.

After being arrested, the defendant told police he had wanted them to shoot him.

 

“He stated he wasn’t trying to injure the victim and that if he wanted to he could have,” the summary said.

Taylor had no previous convictions.

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Yes, there are millions of good Muslims around the world, but the problem is that the few that set the agendas and eventually will dominate the religion in the future if we American do not take note of it.  Of course, the Muslims are working hard to change the dynamic of American society by trying to introduce Sharia Laws into some communities where their populations is numerous. They are demanding that the system accommodate their practices.  It may not be as drastic and life changing at this time, but wait till their population grows and dominates in the many cities, counties and states.  We will see their wings spread just like in Europe where you can't go to some of their communities where the Muslims live.  Am I wrong? lol

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On 9/23/2019 at 7:42 PM, ladyGrace'sDaddy said:

The protest against President Trump got out of hand in St. Louis when a Muslim college student from Minneapolis attempted to burn down a Christian school, lighting four fires and endangering the lives of 33 children


Tnuza Jamal Hassan, a college student rom Minneapolis, has been charged with intentionally setting four fires at St. Catherine’s University in St. Paul to “protest” against President Trump.
A criminal complaint alleges 19-year-old Tnuza Jamal Hassan confessed to police that she started the fires on Wednesday because she had been reading about President Trump and the actions of the US military, and she felt she had to protest

Hassan has been charged with first-degree arson.
Hassan said this was the same thing that happened in the “Muslim land” and nobody cares if they get hurt, so why not do this?‘ the complaint stated.
The complaint, cited by the Minneapolis Star Tribune, says Hassan told police her intent was to “hurt people” and to “burn the Christian university to the ground.”
The Daily Mail reports the teenager was also quoted as telling police and arson investigators: “You guys are lucky that I don’t know how to build a bomb because I would have done that.”
On Friday, Hassan appeared in Ramsey County District Court and was charged with a single count of first-degree arson, reported Pioneer Press. She was then remanded back to the county jail Related:Arkansas: Muslim who murdered U.S. soldier demands halal food in prison
Officials say a sprinkler system prevented a dormitory fire from spreading to a day care center where 33 children and eight adults were present. 
The university said in a press release on Thursday that the fires were “contained, and no one was injured. There was damage to furnishings, but no structural damage to the impacted buildings.

 

That's of course dead wrong and has to be stigmatized as much as possible....Obviously

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2. Muslims should NEVER "assimilate"

End Quote

 

Well, here in my hometown I do know they want to get assimilated by our culture since they were born here and also for lots of other reasons....They do not want to feel like something stranger and excluded  somehow all their life ...so they do commit in school and learn and get to speak perfect Italian the way they were taught  in school ( which they may also teach their parents if they still do not speak it or not speak it well at least) and they have Italian buddies....

 

I saw  interviews on TV where many of them ( 2nd o 3rd generation youth of Arab origin) state they would like to become Police  or Carabinieri ( more or less same thing) and whenever  asked if they feel more Italian or, let's say, Tunisian or Moroccan or Egyptian....They say surely Italian  " I was born here,  it's my language, my buddies are Italian, etc"

 

Then I'd deem it also obvious they can't be asked to deny and reject all the things of their parents' tradition......

 

There's still a battle in Parliament ( which has been going on for years ) for giving those born here in Italy the automatic citizenship but it's still not that way...It's somehow absurd and surreal as per the current law we have here  ..they do not need to do anything ( granted their parents are legallly residing here with a job and a domicile) until they get to 18 and after that ( even if they were born here) they have to go to the police station ( which in this Country takes care of everything concerning immigration...permits etc...I deem a consequence of the past Mussolini regime as in most Countries those issues have a speciale office for handling those things...In Italy it's the Police, which also takes care of giving  passport to Italian citizens who make a request  for it...I know as I did always had to request it at the police station....with all the load of " normal" police work they already have...That's plain stupid....Period)

 

So, I was saying  when a person of foreign (non-European) origin turns 18 ( which is deeed adult age here) no matter if they were birn here...The have to go to the Police which gives them a "PERMIT" in order to stay leggally in the Country where they were born...I repeat....Surreal and laughable if it weren't tragic ( and also racist somehow)

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So, I was saying  when a person of foreign (non-European) origin turns 18 ( which is deemed adult age here) no matter if they were born here...The have to go to the Police which gives them a "PERMIT" in order to stay legally in the Country where they were born...They must repeat this process every 3 or 4 years...I repeat....Surreal and laughable if it weren't tragic ( and also racist somehow)

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1 hour ago, jaybake said:

Yes, there are millions of good Muslims around the world, but the problem is that the few that set the agendas and eventually will dominate the religion in the future if we American do not take note of it.  Of course, the Muslims are working hard to change the dynamic of American society by trying to introduce Sharia Laws into some communities where their populations is numerous. They are demanding that the system accommodate their practices.  It may not be as drastic and life changing at this time, but wait till their population grows and dominates in the many cities, counties and states.  We will see their wings spread just like in Europe where you can't go to some of their communities where the Muslims live.  Am I wrong? lol

 

 

Italy is way smaller than the USA  and certainly a few thousands times less powerful

 

 

Still here, with a discreet amount of Immigrans of Arabic origin....Nobody that I know of ( and I watch 4/5 TV news programs every day, domestic and Int'l) I NEVER heard so far of anybody and / or any Arab community demanding Sharia law

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