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Appoupon

Tax on Dinar exchanged through a currency broker in Kuwait

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I have read hundreds of posts pertaining to tax on Iraqi dinar. They all talk about capital gains and investment in the Dinar. All of my Iraqi Dinar were exchanged by a broker in Kuwait when I worked there as a DoD contractor. All of my Iraqi Dinar were exchanged for Kuwaiti Dinar at a Currency Broker that exchanged multiple currencies. I did not invest in Iraqi Dinar, I simply exchanged Kuwaiti Dinar for it. I made my last exchange in 2011. Why would I owe tax on a currency exchange?

 

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I am not accountant and I could be wrong, but I have looked into this issue over these last few years, and this is what I have come to believe:  Once the profit (gain) from a currency exchange exceeds $200, then that profit becomes taxable as ordinary income.  Perhaps when you did your exchanges, the currencies were pretty stable and you therefore did not have that much of a gain. 

 

I am sure there must be some members here who are CPAs, but none of them ever give their opinion on this subject.  Really, a CPA is really the only one you should be listening to about this.  However, not even the CPAs agree because I've had other dinar holders tell me that their CPA told them it's taxable as capital gains.  But from what I can gather, whenever a CPA digs more deeply into the tax laws, they usually conclude that the gain is taxable as ordinary income.  Also, Adam says this and I believe his wife is a CPA.  

 

jmho, for what it's worth

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I'm not a CPA either, but my opinion is this:

 

I can see currency being taxed as ordinary income in a situation where you bring back some foreign currency and it appreciates while you have it, and then you exchange the currency for dollars.  That would be a short-term capital gain.

 

But in the case of buying the Dinar for investment and holding it for 5, 10, 15 years, I would argue that this would be a long-term capital gain if ever there was one.  Something tells me that new rules will be made concerning taxing the gain on the Dinar.   I don't think Uncle Sam has had to consider something like this before.

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Appoupon, I agree with you but don't think the logic will fly. I was just like you, I carried my American Dollar down to the local DinarTrade where they handle all types of foreign currencies an exchanged it for some Iraqi Dinar. My US dollar had already been taxed so why tax me again? 

The crooked IRS system America has in place is no better than the Billy the Kid or Al Capone of days gone by, only they don't go jail....

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I will also say that Bob Adams, who is a CPA (and he works with Breitling along with an investmentment advisor to offer retirement planning for dinar holders), has said repeatedly that he, along wih some other very reputable CPAs, dug deep into the tax code (and I'm pretty sure the IRS has considered all angles when it comes to making money, people have made money on currency revaluations before after all) and he is adamament that any gain from the RV will be taxed as ordinary income.  He even discussed the why of it in one of Breitling's audios.

 

I would normally agree that there will likely be a windfall tax or some such thing instituted after the RV, but now that we have Trump, I am rethinking that.  Trump understands capitalism.  Businesses and countries grow and are very successful if the thinkers and hard workers are encouraged to do their best work and are well rewarded when they do.  So I think it's at least possible that Trump will NOT introduce a windfall tax because he may want to encourage the initiative and forward thinking that dinar investors demonstrated when they decided to buy and hold dinar.  Also, when people have extra money, they tend to spend at least some of it and that grows the economy.  And Trump wants that very much.  I admit that this idea is something I came up with on my own and  I have not heard anyone else say this, but, hey I could be right.....

 

In any event, unless you plan to commit tax fraud or are using legal methods to minimize taxes, you will have to pay whatever the IRS says when the RV happens.  I believe it's best to be prepared to pay the maximum tax rate, and even a windfall tax, and then if there is no windfall tax and/or it turns out the profit will only be taxed as capital gains, then you end up with a lot more money than you expected.  I just wouldn't want to be caught on the opposite side where I was expecting to only pay 15% capital gains and then it ends up being 37% and it's too late to buy more dinar at (post RV) to make up for the extra 22% I hadn't planned on paying.   

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I doubt there will be a "Windfall Tax".  It doesn't fit the situation.  This was an investment we all made.

 

https://www.irs.com/articles/windfalls-and-your-taxes

 

Long Term Capital Gains is 20% Tax

Short Term Capital Gains (ordinary income) is 37% Tax

(These rates are the "highest", assuming we make a killing in dinar revaluation.)

 

Don't forget to allow for bank fees and any other fee they might decide to impose.

 

I think people will be safe allowing 50% for taxes, fees, etc. (unless, of course, they have other tax advantage plans).

If it winds up to be less than 50%, all the better.

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Well this is all very interesting as in Australia after 4 years it's no Cspital gains but as Governments make and change the rules that may change but if two 00s are taken off our value there  wont be too many paying capital gains and second yes I was told the Dinars we baught why we paid above the price we paid tax on them when baught so all this is going to be interesting in the next few weeks or  months . Lots of Bullshit floating around at present but they Governments is what worries me they dont like any one outside the Government to make lots of money so things could change . 

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Look up my posts on this topic several years back.  I was a big 8 tax partner with numerous international clients and a tax manager at the HQ of a Fortune 100 company where one of my duties was to calculate the unrealized currency conversion gains and losses on periodic financial statements including the unrealized (i.e., deferred) tax effects related to those gains or losses.  Basically, they are ordinary if related to the active conduct of a trade or business, unless they are derived from the disposal of an asset held for investment.  Businesses that routinely have such gains and losses can get a safe haven by giving the IRS notice that a foreign currency denominated asset has been acquired for investment purposes.  The code subsection with the $200 rule relates only to de minimus personal gains, and is not relevant to investment nor ordinary trade or business gains/losses.  It's easier to understand if you think of any foreign currency as widgets or gizmos instead of money.  If you buy and/or sell gizmos overseas as an active business, gains/losses will be ordinary.  And if you decide to keep some particularly nice gizmos because you think some day theiy may become valuable collector items, they're investments that will generate capital gain or loss.

 

Conceptually, stop thinking of IQDs as money.  I you are an American and paying taxes, IQDs are an asset (e.g., gizmo) that you can buy or sell for US dollars or barter for any other asset.  ALL such transactions are taxable and the normal rules for determining the flavor of the taxable income or loss (i.e., ordinary trade or business, ordinary investment with or without the surtax, ordinary rental, short or long term capital gain/loss (with or without depreciation, amortization, or other "recaptures"), etc.  Yeah, it's really messy, and no longer even remotely sane, logical, or knowable given the hundreds of pages or regs not yet written and thousands of court cases not yet litigated. 

 

If your tax preparer says "ordinary," get a new tax preparer.  Repeat until you have a return reporting capital gain or loss.  If the IRS decides to litigate, you can defer payment or additional taxes (IF the IRS bills you) while a test case is litigated.  If it's heard outside the 9th CCA, the test taxpayer will win and so will you.  If not, the Supreme Court will reverse the 9th as it almost always does provided the actually here the case, and there is a risk they will not because like every one else they hate to try to figure out any tax issue.  If that happens, you might owe some tax plus some interest, but no penalties because you relied on a pro and the Courts treated it as a real issue.  But not to worry, we'll all be dead before that day comes. 

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6 hours ago, Xtaxguy said:

 If your tax preparer says "ordinary," get a new tax preparer.  Repeat until you have a return reporting capital gain or loss.  

 

YES!  :bravo:

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That's exactly what my CPA has told me since the first time I talked to him about it...

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exchanging a few at a time at the airport ? what about that -or walk across the mexican border and exchange for pesos,  then come back and exchange for dollars--or fly to belize and exchange there

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On 12/30/2018 at 7:27 AM, Xtaxguy said:

I was a big 8 tax partner with numerous international clients and a tax manager at the HQ of a Fortune 100 company where one of my duties was to calculate the unrealized currency conversion gains and losses on periodic financial statements including the unrealized (i.e., deferred) tax effects related to those gains or losses.  Basically, they are ordinary if related to the active conduct of a trade or business, unless they are derived from the disposal of an asset held for investment.  Businesses that routinely have such gains and losses can get a safe haven by giving the IRS notice that a foreign currency denominated asset has been acquired for investment purposes.  The code subsection with the $200 rule relates only to de minimus personal gains, and is not relevant to investment nor ordinary trade or business gains/losses.  It's easier to understand if you think of any foreign currency as widgets or gizmos instead of money.  If you buy and/or sell gizmos overseas as an active business, gains/losses will be ordinary.  And if you decide to keep some particularly nice gizmos because you think some day theiy may become valuable collector items, they're investments that will generate capital gain or loss.

 

Wow Xtaxguy!!  This is fantastic news!!  But do you think it's possible that with Trumps new tax laws starting last year, that this treatment might have changed?  Do you know where to look it up in the current tax code to find out?  Or can you tell us where to look for it?

 

Thanks sooooo much for your input!!

 

 

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If you give your IQDs (or any other asset) to anyone, anywhere, in exchange for anything, and you are a citizen or permanent resident of the US, you have a taxable event reportable on your US tax return.  Everything else is just details about how the amount of the tax burden or benefit (in the case of losses on such transactions) is calculated.  If what you get in the exchange is of lesser value than the then current value of what you are giving, the difference is likely to be a gift, which might be a tax deductible charitable contribution, or a reportable taxable gift to someone you wish to benefit.  In short, ALL transactions are taxable events to those involved, it's just that on most of them one or more of the parties involved may be exempt from reporting it or, if reportable, may have no practical tax impacts.  For example, when you buy a beer to drink, that's almost always a non-reportable personal expense, but not to the entity that poured it.

 

The new federal tax law makes no changes in fundamental concepts that I know of, and what I described in the above paragraph is as fundamental as it gets.  The new law is just another big hodge podge of tweeks in the computational details designed to benefit some and penalize others.  Overall, a significant tax cut on identical facts will occur, but total federal revenue very likely will go up significantly because the burden shifting has stimulated businesses (changed facts) which will likely pay more total dollars of taxes despite lower tax rates because their income is going up.  Total dollars collected from individuals will go up much more despite lower tax rates primarily because millions of people have gone back to work (more changed facts) and most again will be paying some income and social security taxes.  Those who have been employed all along will pay at lower rates, but in most cases on increased income levels as wages rise everywhere.  This phenomena was previously best illustrated by the huge tax cuts Jack Kennedy got passed early in his administration and lit up the economy like never before.  This is horribly embarrassing to the loonie left who invariably try to ignore or deny it.

 

But, for the top 3 to 5% of earners, federal taxes will take a significant jump if they live in very high tax rate States (e.g., NY, NJ, Mass., Conn., Penn., Ill., Calif., etc.) because their State and local tax (SALT) deductions on their federal tax returns will be limited to $10,000 despite their actual SALT payments often being much higher.  Much teeth gnashing to come soon from the bluest States!

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49 minutes ago, Xtaxguy said:

If you give your IQDs (or any other asset) to anyone, anywhere, in exchange for anything, and you are a citizen or permanent resident of the US, you have a taxable event reportable on your US tax return.  Everything else is just details about how the amount of the tax burden or benefit (in the case of losses on such transactions) is calculated.  If what you get in the exchange is of lesser value than the then current value of what you are giving, the difference is likely to be a gift, which might be a tax deductible charitable contribution, or a reportable taxable gift to someone you wish to benefit.  In short, ALL transactions are taxable events to those involved, it's just that on most of them one or more of the parties involved may be exempt from reporting it or, if reportable, may have no practical tax impacts.  For example, when you buy a beer to drink, that's almost always a non-reportable personal expense, but not to the entity that poured it.

 

The new federal tax law makes no changes in fundamental concepts that I know of, and what I described in the above paragraph is as fundamental as it gets.  The new law is just another big hodge podge of tweeks in the computational details designed to benefit some and penalize others.  Overall, a significant tax cut on identical facts will occur, but total federal revenue very likely will go up significantly because the burden shifting has stimulated businesses (changed facts) which will likely pay more total dollars of taxes despite lower tax rates because their income is going up.  Total dollars collected from individuals will go up much more despite lower tax rates primarily because millions of people have gone back to work (more changed facts) and most again will be paying some income and social security taxes.  Those who have been employed all along will pay at lower rates, but in most cases on increased income levels as wages rise everywhere.  This phenomena was previously best illustrated by the huge tax cuts Jack Kennedy got passed early in his administration and lit up the economy like never before.  This is horribly embarrassing to the loonie left who invariably try to ignore or deny it.

 

But, for the top 3 to 5% of earners, federal taxes will take a significant jump if they live in very high tax rate States (e.g., NY, NJ, Mass., Conn., Penn., Ill., Calif., etc.) because their State and local tax (SALT) deductions on their federal tax returns will be limited to $10,000 despite their actual SALT payments often being much higher.  Much teeth gnashing to come soon from the bluest States!

 

there is no proof regarding how much i paid for my IQD,  so where is the profit margin ?

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:31 AM, Floridian said:

I'm not a CPA either, but my opinion is this:

 

I can see currency being taxed as ordinary income in a situation where you bring back some foreign currency and it appreciates while you have it, and then you exchange the currency for dollars.  That would be a short-term capital gain.

 

But in the case of buying the Dinar for investment and holding it for 5, 10, 15 years, I would argue that this would be a long-term capital gain if ever there was one.  Something tells me that new rules will be made concerning taxing the gain on the Dinar.   I don't think Uncle Sam has had to consider something like this before.

kwat  comes to mind

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16 minutes ago, one2one said:

 

there is no proof regarding how much i paid for my IQD,  so where is the profit margin ?

that would de a great question for Adam...

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Xtaxguy, I know your not giving tax advice on this forum but would like an opinion on a scenario I have often pondered on a lot as of late.

If I wanted to buy a new motor home for say $600k an get the dealership to sell me this motor home for say 670k ID an he pays all bank fees (after RV of course) how would this work? I'm not exchanging anything only using a foreign currency to make this purchase...Thanks 

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re One2One's Q:  When you convey away an asset your gain or loss is computed by subtracting your cost basis for that asset from the value of what you received in exchange for that asset.  It's up to you to demonstrate your cost basis.  If you can't, it's considered to be zero, and your gain therefore equals your entire value of your proceeds.

 

To everyone else's squirming efforts:  reread the first paragraph of my 4:11 pm Wednesday post.  Think of it this way:  all transactions are just barter trades.  What you're getting on the deal is your sale proceeds, and your cost for what you are giving is your cost basis.  Proceeds minus cost equals gain or loss.  If your barter deal does not involve US CURRENCY you might have a problem in assigning a US dollar equivalent to either or both sides of the trade.  e.g., you swap a piece of furniture you inherited 10 years ago for a used motorcycle.  Your cost basis is the fair market value of the furniture on the date of death of the person who left it to you, but the current US dollar value of that furniture and the used motorcycle are rather subjective.  Best evidence of value of either of the bartered items defines the value of both.  Now substitute IQDs for the used furniture. 

 

If a transaction is reportable for US tax purposes and either side of the transaction consists solely of US dollars, the face amount of that US currency absolutely defines the reporting value of the transaction.  ANYTHING other than US dollars makes valuation of the deal less absolute, best evidence prevails, but the nature and taxation of the transaction for US tax reporting purposes DO NOT CHANGE.  CURRENCY OTHER THAN US DOLLARS is simply NOT currency for US tax return purposes.  It's just another vanilla paper asset to which a US Dollar value has to be designated by the best available evidence in order to compute the gain or loss on the deal for US tax reporting purposes.

 

 

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On 12/30/2018 at 7:27 AM, Xtaxguy said:

If your tax preparer says "ordinary," get a new tax preparer.  Repeat until you have a return reporting capital gain or loss.

 

Xtaxguy, I am so happy that you are posting in this thread, thank you!!!  I had pretty much decided that our gain from the RV will be taxed as Ordinary Income, but you and your experience in this area as a high level CPA has caused me to rethink my position.  The problem is that some CPAs say the RV will be taxed as Capital Gains and other CPAs say Ordinary Income.  (btw, I totally agree with you that it will be taxed.  Anyone thinking the IRS won't tax it is dangerously naive and if they don't report it and the IRS finds out about it (and we know the Powers that Be are watching everything), that could be considered tax fraud which has all sorts of nasty ramifications). 

 

Anyway, to definitively resolve this issue of HOW it will be tax, I think we need to see exactly what the IRS has to say about the issue.  So far, no one has put forth this information.  Bob Adams (Breitling's CPA friend) did an audio trying to do that and claims it will be Ordinary Income.  But I looked through your posts and read your response to Bob's audio where you explained why he's wrong.  That got me to start researching the term "investment" to try to find out what the IRS says about it.  I think I may have found it, but I need a knowledgeable tax professional to weigh in on it. 

                   

I recently posted what I found and I started a new post in the "Tax Section" here.  But that was two days ago and it doesn't look like anyone is reading it.  Would you be so kind as to go there and comment on it?  

 

Again, thank you!  If we can find the authority from the IRS for claiming this as a Capital Gain, it would end this discussion once and for all and save many IQD holders millions of dollars.

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people keep talking about the I.R.S.,  my point is exchanging in a foreign country :

i used to have fishing boats in Costa Rica and carried large amounts of cash and certified checks :

no problem at all exchanging one for the other

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3 hours ago, coorslite21 said:

I am no expert......my belief is, and has been, no tax......just a spread of 2% or less....

 

JMO......CL

 

How did you come to this belief, CL?

I would think Uncle Sam would want a piece of any money that anybody makes on anything and everything.

 

Also, a spread of 2% or less?

I'm guessing the greedy banks also will take as much as they can get and probably the US Treasury will want part of the spread, too.

 

Unless, of course, you're in VIP, OSI, and all those things that some of us can't afford to do.

Surely, you can't be thinking no tax and less than 2% spread for EVERYBODY.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Floridian said:

 

How did you come to this belief, CL?

I would think Uncle Sam would want a piece of any money that anybody makes on anything and everything.

 

Also, a spread of 2% or less?

I'm guessing the greedy banks also will take as much as they can get and probably the US Treasury will want part of the spread, too.

 

Unless, of course, you're in VIP, OSI, and all those things that some of us can't afford to do.

Surely, you can't be thinking no tax and less than 2% spread for EVERYBODY.

 

 

 

Well, I may be totally wrong.....but here is my thought process....

 

First on the Spread......2% is actually on the high side..........Check with your bank......or google average bank spreads.......I will add that the more business you do with a bank....and the tighter the relationship.....the lower the spread.......btw....watch out for fees......another way they can stick you......I don't recall if you are into cryptocurrencies or not......the first day of the new year.....XRP (Ripple) handled over $520 million USD value in transactions with an average transaction speed of 4 seconds.......at a total cost of under a buck..........this is why Main Stream Finance is so worried about what Blockchain brings to the table......

 

As to taxes.........could be 95%.........but I doubt it........here.s why.........

 

IQD is held my many, everywhere........Countries, Businesses, Individuals.......Fortunately the Central Banking system......IMF......and that whole unit of corruption don't call the shots for the whole world....No one will be able to tell Russia or China what they do with Taxation......

 

Then it comes the the US........no doubt if HRC had been elected......and a change in value occurred.....it is likely the tax would have been 95%........mainly because that group thinks they need to take care of/control all of us.........ta

 

 

Taxes would have been collected.........and they would have fixed a few roads and stole the rest.....

 

Trump is a Capitalist.......a believer in free markets...........the money will flow where it needs to go........and taxes will be paid on those ventures..........

 

One last item here.........In the Economy section I posted......2019, what's ahead........you might read that.........

 

This Bubble that first blew up 07-09.........was never fixed........the band aid has only made it worse..........when it blows.... this time it will be ugly......perhaps prior we will see a revaluation/some sort of currency reset in the hopes of prevention.........perhaps afterwards as a hopeful fix.........

 

Either way, think about how you will hold your new found holdings.........they just might disappear as the deep state pulls another fast one...........

 

So, I hope this helps........and really I am no expert..........if you get a chance............Check out that thread I mentioned and if interested google Egon and Matterhorn........you might find it to be of some value.

 

Oh and BTW......VIP. OSI......sound concepts built on sound principal........at the very least an excellent insurance policy.....

 

Enjoy your weekend........CL

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2 hours ago, coorslite21 said:

 

Well, I may be totally wrong.....but here is my thought process....

 

First on the Spread......2% is actually on the high side..........Check with your bank......or google average bank spreads.......I will add that the more business you do with a bank....and the tighter the relationship.....the lower the spread.......btw....watch out for fees......another way they can stick you......I don't recall if you are into cryptocurrencies or not......the first day of the new year.....XRP (Ripple) handled over $520 million USD value in transactions with an average transaction speed of 4 seconds.......at a total cost of under a buck..........this is why Main Stream Finance is so worried about what Blockchain brings to the table......

 

As to taxes.........could be 95%.........but I doubt it........here.s why.........

 

IQD is held my many, everywhere........Countries, Businesses, Individuals.......Fortunately the Central Banking system......IMF......and that whole unit of corruption don't call the shots for the whole world....No one will be able to tell Russia or China what they do with Taxation......

 

Then it comes the the US........no doubt if HRC had been elected......and a change in value occurred.....it is likely the tax would have been 95%........mainly because that group thinks they need to take care of/control all of us.........ta

 

 

Taxes would have been collected.........and they would have fixed a few roads and stole the rest.....

 

Trump is a Capitalist.......a believer in free markets...........the money will flow where it needs to go........and taxes will be paid on those ventures..........

 

One last item here.........In the Economy section I posted......2019, what's ahead........you might read that.........

 

This Bubble that first blew up 07-09.........was never fixed........the band aid has only made it worse..........when it blows.... this time it will be ugly......perhaps prior we will see a revaluation/some sort of currency reset in the hopes of prevention.........perhaps afterwards as a hopeful fix.........

 

Either way, think about how you will hold your new found holdings.........they just might disappear as the deep state pulls another fast one...........

 

So, I hope this helps........and really I am no expert..........if you get a chance............Check out that thread I mentioned and if interested google Egon and Matterhorn........you might find it to be of some value.

 

Oh and BTW......VIP. OSI......sound concepts built on sound principal........at the very least an excellent insurance policy.....

 

Enjoy your weekend........CL

 

Thanks CL, for your perspective.  I will go over and read what you posted in the Economy section.

 

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15 hours ago, coorslite21 said:

 

Well, I may be totally wrong.....but here is my thought process....

 

First on the Spread......2% is actually on the high side..........Check with your bank......or google average bank spreads.......I will add that the more business you do with a bank....and the tighter the relationship.....the lower the spread.......btw....watch out for fees......another way they can stick you......I don't recall if you are into cryptocurrencies or not......the first day of the new year.....XRP (Ripple) handled over $520 million USD value in transactions with an average transaction speed of 4 seconds.......at a total cost of under a buck..........this is why Main Stream Finance is so worried about what Blockchain brings to the table......

 

As to taxes.........could be 95%.........but I doubt it........here.s why.........

 

IQD is held my many, everywhere........Countries, Businesses, Individuals.......Fortunately the Central Banking system......IMF......and that whole unit of corruption don't call the shots for the whole world....No one will be able to tell Russia or China what they do with Taxation......

 

Then it comes the the US........no doubt if HRC had been elected......and a change in value occurred.....it is likely the tax would have been 95%........mainly because that group thinks they need to take care of/control all of us.........ta

 

 

Taxes would have been collected.........and they would have fixed a few roads and stole the rest.....

 

Trump is a Capitalist.......a believer in free markets...........the money will flow where it needs to go........and taxes will be paid on those ventures..........

 

One last item here.........In the Economy section I posted......2019, what's ahead........you might read that.........

 

This Bubble that first blew up 07-09.........was never fixed........the band aid has only made it worse..........when it blows.... this time it will be ugly......perhaps prior we will see a revaluation/some sort of currency reset in the hopes of prevention.........perhaps afterwards as a hopeful fix.........

 

Either way, think about how you will hold your new found holdings.........they just might disappear as the deep state pulls another fast one...........

 

So, I hope this helps........and really I am no expert..........if you get a chance............Check out that thread I mentioned and if interested google Egon and Matterhorn........you might find it to be of some value.

 

Oh and BTW......VIP. OSI......sound concepts built on sound principal........at the very least an excellent insurance policy.....

 

Enjoy your weekend........CL

 

not concerned at all about the spread, cash in and get off this ride

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