Do we really have free will or is everything planned?

[cranman]

I love discussing religion even though I am an atheist.   A little back ground.  I've been baptized, took communion, been confirmed and served as an altar boy for 4 years.  Raised as a Catholic.  Religion is a wonderful thing for those who believe.  I don't say that in a condescending manner either.

 

As for my question, do you really think you have free will or the illusion of free will?  If God is all knowing and has a plan for each one of us, then is that to say that he knows how we will live our life, knows what we will believe and  ultimately where you will reside when you die?  I believe the bible says our destiny is Gods will and is pre-determined.  If that is the case then he knows that I am not a believer and that ultimately I will reside in Hell.  Don't say I can change my Iife and destiny if I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior.  I know that, and as I said I'm an atheist.  I'm not looking for anyone to convert me.  Haha

 

I just like to hear what other believe or what their thoughts are.  It really is an amazing subject to discuss.  IMO

[Sage449]

I like religious debate. As long as it remains a debate and doesn't get snarky. And not going to attempt to proselytize you. 

There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. SInce He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).

 

 

[learning all i can]

This is such a debatable question and one I also love to discuss and talk about.  I am a "Calvinist"  "reformed" believer and my belief is in a Sovereign God that predestined man before the foundation of the earth.  I believe that Adam and Eve had free will to make decisions between good and evil as they were told by God that they could eat of any tree in the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  When Eve ate of the tree and gave also to Adam, God cursed the serpent and the woman, they were then banned from the garden.  And that is where I believe that "free will" ended.  Adam, being the first representative of man took away our choice of doing that which is good and now our hearts are always bent towards the things that are not of God.  Therefore our so called free will is really only one choice and that is never in God's favor.. "There is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.".  KJV Romans 3:11

Not until our Lord does a work in our hearts can we turn and seek the things of God.

 

Gods word speaks of predestination, elect, chosen and foreknowledge from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation.   I personally believe that God chose and gave the ones He chose to His son Jesus Christ.  Arminians, do believe in free will both to make good and wrong decision and choose God on their own,but as I read His word over and over my belief becomes stronger every day that He is all powerful, He is our Maker and He can and may do anything that He wills and is for His good pleasure.  He truely is the Potter and we are His clay.  He alone chooses what He will do with these ole pots.

 

My reformed belief is refuted by many and can cause much hostility even between Christians but as George Hayduke once told me, predestination and free will are not essentials  in our beliefs.". Only knowing, believing and having faith in the righteousness of Christ, His death on the cross and ressurection is essential when it comes to the miracle of salvation.

 

One more note, God is all knowing but I don't believe that it is because He looked in to the future(Arminians) and saw what we would do but made His plans from the very beginning.  He chose who, what, when and where and His plans will not be thwarted.

Thank you for giving me this time to think upon His majesty and His glory....how wonderful.

[umbertino]

 

Great topic, cranman and thanks....I've been wondering about that myself for a long time......

 

I have ( obviously so) no proof or anything  but I'd tend to think / suppose / believe  most of my / our life is somehow planned  / pre-determined

 

Of course I address and think of my own life so far while commenting on that

 

It did seem to me  more often than not that I had just a mere thought / delusion / resemblance of the fact that my life could be a total work in progress and therefore all the various events were coincidental while instead  the feeling now is that it's not ....

 

So.....I do believe now more than before that it's just a resemblance ( talking about my own life) of a free will thing while in actuality  it is ( most likely...not sure...how could I?) all created / thought / decided / molded before

 

I can't say why I feel that way...That's just the way I feel about it

 

My life might look / sound / appear as a free will thing  but deep inside  it's probably ( my very personal feeling, mind you) all been written and somehow decided ( not sure by whom....God, Buddha or whoever..maybe just by the power of the Universe or something like that...)...All the good, all the bad, the love , the family ties, friends, birthdate and death date...All already  somehow coded down......

 

Maybe there will be the chance to find out about it all when we do leave this plane....Don't know...I'd like to find out.....

 

 

Again thanks, cranman....Complex but most certainly fascinating issue

Edited September 23, 2018 by umbertino

[cranman]

Well since I don't believe in God, or any deity,. I have absolute free will.  I propose that if God is all knowing then he knew that I would be born, when I'm going to die and everything in between.  The bible says many things about destiny and God having a plan, which suggest a predetermined outcome.  After all, that is what a plan is .  A path to a predetermined outcome.  If God has a plan for everyone then all the plans must work together in order for them to have the right outcome.  If everyone had true free will then how could the plans work together?  Wouldn't individuals inadvertently change the plan due to free will?  I know that I am humanizing it and to do so is basically worthless since no one can understand Gods thought process and plans.  That's where faith comes in I guess. 

 

The problem is interpretation.  The bible is written in such away that it is totally open to interpretation.   Kind of like Iraq's plan for their currency.  It's written in such a way that no one is certain what they mean.  

 

My concern with the bible is that it was written by man who supposedly had God whispering in their ear.  My belief is that mankind is generally good, but every once in awhile you get people who figure out how to manipulate people to follow them.  Whether their intentions are good or bad.   Hence all the different religions, cults and other groups with mass followings.

 

Again, my belief and opinion.  

[Bama Girl]

John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John. 6:65 “And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father. 

 

Romans 9:11-16

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

I prefer Bible references to just opinions when Bible beliefs are discussed. 😊. I believe totally in the sovereign power of our God. He has never and will never ask for our permission for anything. In all of the years of my reading, studying, and listening to God-called ministers, I’ve never read or heard of a passage in the New Testament ( the New Covenant that God established through Jesus, the perfect sacrifice) that discussed man’s will except in the negative sense such as in John 1:13 as an example. I’m certainly not an expert in the Bible so maybe someone can point to specific scripture for my enlightenment. 

 

This is always an interesting topic and as long as it can be discussed politely, it can be enjoyable and enlightening. 

[Jim1cor13]

1 hour ago, cranman said:

My concern with the bible is that it was written by man who supposedly had God whispering in their ear.  My belief is that mankind is generally good, but every once in awhile you get people who figure out how to manipulate people to follow them.  Whether their intentions are good or bad.   Hence all the different religions, cults and other groups with mass followings.

 

Again, my belief and opinion.  

 

Good discussion so far, hopefully it can continue to be civil and decent. 

 

Good and very valid point you make in your reply cranman.

 

I just have a few thoughts based upon my own personal experience...

 

I discuss and debate religious issues quite frequently with some folks. Over many years, in my 

personal experience, I have witnessed within religion the good the bad and the ugly. Unfortunately, much of it was ugly and yes, very manipulative.

 

Religion and its history can be a very interesting study, and also very troubling considering some are taught about a being that is said to have done some horrible things to its own creation.

 

Religious belief and certain religious superstitions resulting from those beliefs can be some of the most difficult things to get free from. I know this personally from experience, and the fear that goes along with it due to how we are taught and literally programmed to "believe".

 

Some never are able to escape the sense that their god will torture them forever if they do not blindly follow its decrees and demands. This alone has been the cause for many people to end up institutionalized because they were no longer able to function in a rational manner and could no longer live under that kind of horrible burden.

 

The manipulation and the desire to have power over others using various religions and beliefs has often been the

spark that sets off violence, torture, and murder within civilizations. Some even condone these actions based upon being taught that their god would treat them the same if they did not comply with its demands, etc., so they feel justified in using similar tactics towards others.

 

I find religious belief and how one reacts to it depends much upon their own state of mind and personality to begin with.

 

Religion can be very helpful to one, and a complete train wreck for another. One may be drawn to hope and love within the pages of their bible, while another may be drawn only to certain sections that justify them developing hateful unhealthy attitudes towards others who may not believe or think like them or choose to follow their religion, etc.

 

The latter person is most dangerous to themselves and to others. Certain traits can begin to appear in some who become consumed by their beliefs such as a "martyr complex" or some only ever seeing the bad within life, and a 'devil behind every tree'.

 

Taking literal what is meant as parable or metaphor/allegory can have a very high cost associated with it and it can be very destructive which can be seen often within certain "fundamental" religious sects.

 

I have met all kinds of people, some who have no interest in any religion or gods, that have proven to be quality decent people who do not hurt anyone and who are respectful of others and are able to control their mouths. This one area alone, controlling ones own words can be a real challenge to us all!

 

Often their reason for having no interest in religious affairs is because they have been treated like trash by those who claim to represent certain religions or gods, etc. At first they may have been treated kindly, then when they showed no interest in the claims being made, they felt threatened and in some cases they were by those who enjoy condemning anyone who does not "submit or convert".

 

To me, the subject of "free will" is also interesting. "Free will" can suggest a persons own will can be elevated above the will of their god, which should be seen as absurd, but it appears to be generally accepted as "truth". This way, the doctrine can be used to relieve any responsibility of their god, and be used to guilt a person into thinking something is all their fault, when often they had little to no control over a situation. Some even go so far as blaming others for their problems due to "lack of faith" and that they "chose" a certain predicament they may be experiencing. This too is often absurd thinking in many cases.

 

The bottom line to all of it in my opinion,  is not whether or not a person believes in this or that person, doctrine, dogma, decree or some religious ritual...it is that they learn to treat others the same way they desire to be treated.

 

If one fails in this area, the rest of their religion and beliefs would appear to be vain and self serving and can easily become destructive. I have seen this happen too many times to some who thought they had all the "answers" so to speak.

 

Thank you cranman for the discussion! Unfortunately these topics often end up getting nasty. I sincerely hope it remains civil and productive.

 

 

 

 

[Bama Girl]

3 hours ago, learning all i can said:

Gods word speaks of predestination, elect, chosen and foreknowledge from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation.   I personally believe that God chose and gave the ones He chose to His son Jesus Christ.  Arminians, do believe in free will both to make good and wrong decision and choose God on their own,but as I read His word over and over my belief becomes stronger every day that He is all powerful, He is our Maker and He can and may do anything that He wills and is for His good pleasure.  He truely is the Potter and we are His clay.  He alone chooses what He will do with these ole pots.

 

I’m on the same page as you “learning all I can.” 😊

[cranman]

@Jim1cor13  Since this is a free country and so far everyone is just stating there opinions , there is no reason for the discussion to turn nasty.  If people do as you and others have so far then it will stay civil and informational.   I look at this way, I am never trying to prove that God doesn't exist . It is not in my intentions to make anyone mad or disrespect their beliefs.  As one person said to me  "your faith and belief is that there is no God" .  I guess I can't argue with that.

 

@Bama Girl I'm definitely no expert in the Bible and will say that my opinions are based on what others quote from the Bible and their interpretations.  It's funny that when you talk to Catholics, Christians, JWs and other denominations there are usually different views and interpretations of scriptures and quotes from the Bible.  At least everyone can have their say, pray how they wish, when they wish and they will leave to see another day.  Thankfully we have learned from the past.

[cranman]

I could go on forever with the subject of religion.  Like if God created the universe is it truly infinite?  If it was created, what space did it occupy?  Is it considered infinite by man because we could never reach the edge due to of lack of technology?  How can God be a deity that always has been and always will be ?

 

This could be the longest thread ever!   I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and beliefs.  My wife doesn't like talking to me. Haha

[Bama Girl]

5 minutes ago, cranman said:

 

 

@Bama Girl I'm definitely no expert in the Bible and will say that my opinions are based on what others quote from the Bible and their interpretations.  It's funny that when you talk to Catholics, Christians, JWs and other denominations there are usually different views and interpretations of scriptures and quotes from the Bible.  At least everyone can have their say, pray how they wish, when they wish and they will leave to see another day.  Thankfully we have learned from the past.

So true Cranman. I’ve stated many times to different friends of different denominations that there will not be denominations in Heaven. If one has the love of Jesus in their heart and desire to live their life to please Him and not man, then it doesn’t matter what he/her calls him/herself on this old earth. Imo, of course. 😊

[Jim1cor13]

5 minutes ago, cranman said:

@Jim1cor13  Since this is a free country and so far everyone is just stating there opinions , there is no reason for the discussion to turn nasty.  If people do as you and others have so far then it will stay civil and informational.   I look at this way, I am never trying to prove that God doesn't exist . It is not in my intentions to make anyone mad or disrespect their beliefs.  As one person said to me  "your faith and belief is that there is no God" .  I guess I can't argue with that.

 

@Bama Girl I'm definitely no expert in the Bible and will say that my opinions are based on what others quote from the Bible and their interpretations.  It's funny that when you talk to Catholics, Christians, JWs and other denominations there are usually different views and interpretations of scriptures and quotes from the Bible.  At least everyone can have their say, pray how they wish, when they wish and they will leave to see another day.  Thankfully we have learned from the past.

 

Good attitude cranman and refreshing to read. Have a good evening.

 

 

[Bama Girl]

9 minutes ago, cranman said:

I could go on forever with the subject of religion.  Like if God created the universe is it truly infinite?  If it was created, what space did it occupy?  Is it considered infinite by man because we could never reach the edge due to of lack of technology?  How can God be a deity that always has been and always will be ?

 

This could be the longest thread ever!   I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and beliefs.  My wife doesn't like talking to me. Haha

😀😀. Well imo, all of that is God’s works and His business. Shoot, I’m still trying to figure how fax machines actually transmitted fax content over a telephone wire. 😀

 My faith is that the KJV  Bible said it and I believe it. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Bama Girl

[Jim1cor13]

5 minutes ago, cranman said:

I could go on forever with the subject of religion.  Like if God created the universe is it truly infinite?  If it was created, what space did it occupy?  Is it considered infinite by man because we could never reach the edge due to of lack of technology?  How can God be a deity that always has been and always will be ?

 

This could be the longest thread ever!   I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and beliefs.  My wife doesn't like talking to me. Haha

 

 

That means simply that you are willing to think for yourself and ask questions about life and the bizarre world we find ourselves in

 

I wonder if the god of some religions was created in the image of some twisted men who lusted after power over others and the god they created they made capable of committing atrocities against others so they could justify their own devious actions. If one refused to submit, it only takes a threat of endless torment to force conversion.

 

It all does make one wonder, and that is a healthy thing.  

[cranman]

@Bama GirlYou said something interesting" 

If one has the love of Jesus in their heart and desire to live their life to please Him and not man, then it doesn’t matter what he/her calls him/herself on this old earth. Imo, of course. 😊".

If I live my life like you as a good person, but I don't believe in God,  is it your opinion that I would be destined for Hell.  Understand that if you say "Yes" I understand that it is your belief and not that you think I'm a terrible person.  I won't be offended. lol

 

[cranman]

@Jim1cor13I do believe that some men used religion as a reason to go to war (crusades) and did so because they interpreted what they thought God wanted.  Or at least they convinced others they knew what God wanted and that was to convert or kill non believers.  Those were twisted men who lusted over power!

[learning all i can]

1 hour ago, Bama Girl said:

John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John. 6:65 “And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father. 

 

Romans 9:11-16

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

I prefer Bible references to just opinions when Bible beliefs are discussed. 😊. I believe totally in the sovereign power of our God. He has never and will never ask for our permission for anything. In all of the years of my reading, studying, and listening to God-called ministers, I’ve never read or heard of a passage in the New Testament ( the New Covenant that God established through Jesus, the perfect sacrifice) that discussed man’s will except in the negative sense such as in John 1:13 as an example. I’m certainly not an expert in the Bible so maybe someone can point to specific scripture for my enlightenment. 

 

This is always an interesting topic and as long as it can be discussed politely, it can be enjoyable and enlightening. 

Excellent read Bama, you touched many bases here that truely expresses God's will and and His plan for salvation for us.  The only true way for us to learn His word and believe His word is to stay in it daily and hear with ears that have been opened by His hand.  I am so pleased to read your response and the quotes you used from Scripture.  You have done my heart well tonight...thank you

barb

[Bama Girl]

3 minutes ago, cranman said:

@Bama GirlYou said something interesting" 

If one has the love of Jesus in their heart and desire to live their life to please Him and not man, then it doesn’t matter what he/her calls him/herself on this old earth. Imo, of course. 😊".

If I live my life like you as a good person, but I don't believe in God,  is it your opinion that I would be destined for Hell.  Understand that if you say "Yes" I understand that it is your belief and not that you think I'm a terrible person.  I won't be offended. lol

 

I would never be so presumptive to judge whether one goes to heaven or hell. Again, imo, that is God’s business. I think often of the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus. Before his conversion, he was killing and persecuting Christians because he thought that was the right thing to do.  Any Christian living in that era and knew Saul would surely have believed Saul to be hell bound. But they did not know God’s plan for Saul. God called Saul into service and look at Paul’s (Saul after conversion) life then. Maybe God isn’t finished with you yet😊

[climber7]

Not that my opinion is more important than anyone else's but I have walked with God nearly my entire life so I know Him personally--as many of you do--and I've been a lifelong student of His Word, as well as school for the ministry. 

 

I have many thoughts regarding this subject but my short version opinion is......the word 'repent' is all the answer we need. If we didn't have free will--there would be no way to, or need for, repentance that God keeps requiring from us. 

 

Peace and blessing to you all

[Synopsis]

The questions of, "Is Man's (individual) Will Free?" and/or, "Is Man (individual) Predestined?" likely does not hit at the heart of the real question which is, "Is Man (individual) Accountable For His (individual) Will?"

 

This last question is quite a different, but more to the point, question.

 

For those who have received Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for their sins:

 

John 1:9-14 New International Version (NIV)

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

1 Corinthians 3:10-23 New International Version (NIV)

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 3:19 Job 5:13

1 Corinthians 3:20 Psalm 94:11

1 Corinthians 3:22 That is, Peter

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

For those who have not received Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for their sins:

 

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
    he who is coming will come
    and will not delay.”[c]

38 And,

“But my righteous[d] one will live by faith.
    And I take no pleasure
    in the one who shrinks back.”[e]

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:35

Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:36; Psalm 135:14

Hebrews 10:37 Isaiah 26:20; Hab. 2:3

Hebrews 10:38 Some early manuscripts But the righteous

Hebrews 10:38 Hab. 2:4 (see Septuagint)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

Revelation 20:11-15 New International Version (NIV)

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hadeswere thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

You may have seen the movie “Expelled” starring Ben Stein. I believe this documentary of sorts exposes the heart or kernel of the core beliefs for those who identify in various forms with the atheistic and evolutionary views. From this clip is what I believe to be a concise summary of these views:

 

 

Here, from the clip, is the Philosophical Assertions Of Evolutionary And Atheistic Adherents Regarding The Asserted Experiential Perceived Realities Of Man (here today gone tomorrow)

No gods No life after death No ultimate foundation for ethics No ultimate meaning in life No human free will

Other comments from the clip:

Began to doubt the existence of the Deity Starts by giving up an active deity Then it gives up the hope that is in life after death Give up the hope that there is an imminent morality There is no human free will If You believe in Evolution, you can not hope for there being any free will There is no hope whatsoever of there being any deep meaning in human life We live, we die, we are absolutely gone

So is there any right or wrong? Are there rewards or punishments for right or wrong? For those with no assertion of God, I ask the question, " Can (not "Is") Man (individually and collectively) be ethical?" If the answer is "No", then there is a misperception of reality. If the answer is "Yes", then what is the basis of ethics and what is the benefit of ethics? Peace and stability come to mind as a desired outcome. There are many bases for ethics but ultimately they need to come from the Creator who Created us.

 

So, in reality, the question of, "Is Man (individually) Accountable For His Will?" is truly paramount with regard to the questions, "Is Man's (individual) Will Free?" and/or, "Is Man (individual) Predestined?"

 

Jesus Christ said:

 

Matthew 16:15-17 New International Version (NIV)

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

John 6:37 New International Version (NIV)

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

There is more, much more in relation to, "free will or the illusion of free will" but ultimately there is an accountability for the exercise (or lack thereof) of free will.

 

For those who say there "is NO God", I must say they "have NO mind" since the proofs are the same. A mind can not be seen but deduced from the actions and outcomes thereof. For to know there is a God (the One True God - God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Spirit):

 

Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

Matthew 28:16-20 New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

[CSM (R) Thack]

18 minutes ago, Synopsis said:

The questions of, "Is Man's (individual) Will Free?" and/or, "Is Man (individual) Predestined?" likely does not hit at the heart of the real question which is, "Is Man (individual) Accountable For His (individual) Will?"

 

This last question is quite a different, but more to the point, question.

 

For those who have received Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for their sins:

 

John 1:9-14 New International Version (NIV)

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

1 Corinthians 3:10-23 New International Version (NIV)

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 3:19 Job 5:13

1 Corinthians 3:20 Psalm 94:11

1 Corinthians 3:22 That is, Peter

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

For those who have not received Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for their sins:

 

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
    he who is coming will come
    and will not delay.”[c]

38 And,

“But my righteous[d] one will live by faith.
    And I take no pleasure
    in the one who shrinks back.”[e]

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:35

Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:36; Psalm 135:14

Hebrews 10:37 Isaiah 26:20; Hab. 2:3

Hebrews 10:38 Some early manuscripts But the righteous

Hebrews 10:38 Hab. 2:4 (see Septuagint)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

Revelation 20:11-15 New International Version (NIV)

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hadeswere thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

You may have seen the movie “Expelled” starring Ben Stein. I believe this documentary of sorts exposes the heart or kernel of the core beliefs for those who identify in various forms with the atheistic and evolutionary views. From this clip is what I believe to be a concise summary of these views:

 

 

Here, from the clip, is the Philosophical Assertions Of Evolutionary And Atheistic Adherents Regarding The Asserted Experiential Perceived Realities Of Man (here today gone tomorrow)

No gods No life after death No ultimate foundation for ethics No ultimate meaning in life No human free will

Other comments from the clip:

Began to doubt the existence of the Deity Starts by giving up an active deity Then it gives up the hope that is in life after death Give up the hope that there is an imminent morality There is no human free will If You believe in Evolution, you can not hope for there being any free will There is no hope whatsoever of there being any deep meaning in human life We live, we die, we are absolutely gone

So is there any right or wrong? Are there rewards or punishments for right or wrong? For those with no assertion of God, I ask the question, " Can (not "Is") Man (individually and collectively) be ethical?" If the answer is "No", then there is a misperception of reality. If the answer is "Yes", then what is the basis of ethics and what is the benefit of ethics? Peace and stability come to mind as a desired outcome. There are many bases for ethics but ultimately they need to come from the Creator who Created us.

 

So, in reality, the question of, "Is Man (individually) Accountable For His Will?" is truly paramount with regard to the questions, "Is Man's (individual) Will Free?" and/or, "Is Man (individual) Predestined?"

 

Jesus Christ said:

 

Matthew 16:15-17 New International Version (NIV)

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

John 6:37 New International Version (NIV)

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

There is more, much more in relation to, "free will or the illusion of free will" but ultimately there is an accountability for the exercise (or lack thereof) of free will.

 

For those who say there "is NO God", I must say they "have NO mind" since the proofs are the same. A mind can not be seen but deduced from the actions and outcomes thereof. For to know there is a God (the One True God - God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Spirit):

 

Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

Matthew 28:16-20 New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

Great piece Synopsis...truly, thanks for sharing!👍

[Synopsis]

2 hours ago, CSM (R) Thackrey said:

Great piece Synopsis...truly, thanks for sharing!👍

 

 !!!CSM (R) Thackrey!!! AND The Best Of Your Week To You, Sir!!!

 

Lots of good questions and comments here. I reduce the answers to:

 

1 Peter 1:10-12 New International Version (NIV)

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

2 Peter 1:19-21 New International Version (NIV)

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable,and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

2 Timothy 3:10-17 New International Version (NIV)

A Final Charge to Timothy

10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Footnotes:

2 Timothy 3:17 Or that you, a man of God,

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

John 14:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

Jeremiah 31:33-34 New International Version (NIV)

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

John 14:15-21 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me.Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Footnotes:

John 14:17 Some early manuscripts and is

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

So, to me, the Holy Spirit (God himself living inside the ones who have received the gift of eternal life in God The Son Jesus Christ) caused the Prophets and Apostles to write the Scriptures AND is the ONLY ONE that can interpret and apply the very same Scriptures in the life of the believer.

 

So, instead of "free will", I chose to think of "active surrender" to the desires of God The Son Jesus Christ.

 

Hebrews 1:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

God’s Final Word: His Son

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 New International Version (NIV)

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called,both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called.Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 1:19 Isaiah 29:14

1 Corinthians 1:31 Jer. 9:24

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

Proverbs 30:5-6 New International Version (NIV)

5 “Every word of God is flawless;
    he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
    or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

1 Corinthians 4:1-7 New International Version (NIV)

The Nature of True Apostleship

4 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

 

So are there really ANY Absolutes OR Answers?

 

I say, "Yes, absolutely there are and it is all related to God The Son Jesus Christ taught to the believer in and receiver of God The Son Jesus Christ as taught by God The Holy Spirit ALL To The Glory Of God The Father."

[Bama Girl]

2 hours ago, Botzwana said:

If God is love, then it is NOT loving for him to burn souls forever in a hell.  That is called torture.  We do not even torture in the U.S.  Normal people consider it inhumane.  

Mark 9: 47-47 “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

 

Revelation 20:15 “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” 

 

I hope this thread doesn’t turn into an argument, don’t think that was the intention. We all have our beliefs based on how we understand the Word. All I encourage people to do is read the Bible themselves and pray for spiritual understanding. I prefer the KJV due to too many differences in the wording in other versions which can change the meaning of the text. But, that is my belief and I am not trying to convince others to believe as I do. 😊

[LA2009]

[DinarDavo]

18 minutes ago, LA2009 said:

 

This is on my brother's office wall.....He understands it......Me, not so much....LOL