PRESIDENT OBAMA IS ‘MR. $20 TRILLION’

[yota691]

PRESIDENT OBAMA IS ‘MR. $20 TRILLION’

The Associated Press

by CHRISS W. STREET2 Nov 2015Newport Beach, CA4,162

 

With the signing of the Congressional budget deal on November 2 and sale of at least another $1.5 trillion in Treasury debt before he leaves office, President Obama will have earned title: “Mr. $20 Trillion.”

Obama’s first Chair of the Council of Economic Advisors, Christina Romer, promised from the White House in January 2009 that with the help of the veto-proof Democrat Congress passing the $787 billion stimulus package, America would return to sustainable growth and drive unemployment from 8.1 percent to 5.5 percent by the third quarter of 2012.

Barack Obama followed up the expected good news at his Fiscal Responsibility Summit on February 23, 2009 by promising an enthusiastic crowd of supporters and academics:

Congress did pass the President’s economic recovery plan, allowing U.S. government spending to rise by over 18 percent from $2.98 trillion in 2008 under President Bush to an average of $3.53 trillion during the first four years of the Obama Presidency. But the President’s plan failed to stimulate the economy as the unemployment rate was down only slightly to 7.8 percent by September 2012, and would rise back up to 8 percent by the end of the President’s first term.

And that’s why today I’m pledging to cut the deficit we inherited by half by the end of my first term in office. This will not be easy. It will require us to make difficult decisions and face challenges we’ve long neglected. But I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay–and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control.

Rather than the U.S. debt being cut in half, Obama led the greatest debt expansion in history as the United States debt rose over 25 percent in his first four years, from $9.99 trillion to $14.05 trillion.

The current national debt is $18.15 trillion, but the budget deal will allow the Obama Administration to borrow an additional $2 trillion more, pushing the U.S. national debt to$20.1 trillion before Obama leaves office in January 2017.

In the first century after Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton refunded the debts of the American Revolutionary War with a federal debt, the United States only went into debt to pay for its wars. But President Franklin D. Roosevelt attempted to pull the nation out of the Great Depression by pushing the net national debt up from about 21 percent to an unheard-of 39 percent of GDP.

President Obama will have set the record by doubling the size of the U.S. debt in just eight years to over $20 trillion. The net national debt as a percentage of the United States economy will have risen from about 47 percent of GDP when he was first elected to 94 percent of GDP before he leaves.

Under President Obama’s leadership, the combined debt of all federal, state and local governments will have risen to over $23 trillion, or about 120 percent of America’s GDP.

 

Obama says adding $4 trillion to debt is unpatriotic.

[10 YEARS LATER]

It's GOOD to the KING, huh !

[Shabibilicious]

Does this mean he's twice the man that Dubya was?    

 

GO RV, then BV 

[Texstorm]

Perhaps his new found huevos grande is a direct result of his wife and a well placed kick !

[jg1]

Your plan is working. You lying sack of #@#&! 

[Whatshername]

[10 YEARS LATER]

Brilliant     Well Done - Excellent choice !

 

 

[dog53]

He had a lot of help.

Both parties need to be up against the wall in my opinion

[Shabibilicious]

He had a lot of help.

Both parties need to be up against the wall in my opinion

 

Right on Dog.....power of the purse lies with congress.    

 

GO RV, then BV

[brokerkeith]

 

You should see the crap there feeding us in here.............We're With Ya Sistuh!!

 

[Jim1cor13]

It is always fun to watch party loyalists blame each other for the financial

house of cards we have now, not understanding that this has been coming

to this point in time for over 30 years. Obama simply did what they all do,

lie about it on the campaign trail, then continue the charade once in office.

 

None of them understand how to manage finance, they only know how to take

from those who produce, yet we still have some who believe one party is superior

which is simply denial. Both must go, otherwise, we continue to falter as a country

because they are all in bed together performing the same actions, and accusing

each other of wrong doing. It is quite insane to watch, but it never changes.

 

Every election cycle we see hopeful attitudes about some new candidate who will

make it all better...when do they actually ever do this and why do we still buy into the

game? Until we demand accountability from these posers, we will continue to accept

their deception and make excuses for our own lack of attention created in part by

believing any of them.

 

It is time we stop giving a pass to those based upon our own bias, and start letting them

know we understand their game and run them out of town...remember Iceland.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Jim1cor13

[Whatshername]

It is always fun to watch party loyalists blame each other for the financial

house of cards we have now, not understanding that this has been coming

to this point in time for over 30 years. Obama simply did what they all do,

lie about it on the campaign trail, then continue the charade once in office.

 

None of them understand how to manage finance, they only know how to take

from those who produce, yet we still have some who believe one party is superior

which is simply denial. Both must go, otherwise, we continue to falter as a country

because they are all in bed together performing the same actions, and accusing

each other of wrong doing. It is quite insane to watch, but it never changes.

 

Every election cycle we see hopeful attitudes about some new candidate who will

make it all better...when do they actually ever do this and why do we still buy into the

game? Until we demand accountability from these posers, we will continue to accept

their deception and make excuses for our own lack of attention created in part by

believing any of them.

 

It is time we stop giving a pass to those based upon our own bias, and start letting them

know we understand their game and run them out of town...remember Iceland.

Jim, I agree with most everything you said and I must say, you're gentle condescension never disappoints.

Curious... What party do you imagine we "loyalists" identify with? Do you hold obama accountable for any of this $20 trillion? Do his collectivist policies and redistributive agenda not qualify as a threat to our economy and generational theft? What part of the coming collapse do you think we don't understand? Does your superior grasp of the political/ideological battlefield enable you to look down upon us foot soldiers of Liberty? Do you think to yourself "tsk tsk, small-thinkers... TPTB will never set you free so why bother..."?

What is the answer, Jim? How do we fix it? Who can lead us out of this... and to where?

[dog53]

Jim, I agree with most everything you said and I must say, you're gentle condescension never disappoints.

Curious... What party do you imagine we "loyalists" identify with? Do you hold obama accountable for any of this $20 trillion? Do his collectivist policies and redistributive agenda not qualify as a threat to our economy and generational theft? What part of the coming collapse do you think we don't understand? Does your superior grasp of the political/ideological battlefield enable you to look down upon us foot soldiers of Liberty? Do you think to yourself "tsk tsk, small-thinkers... TPTB will never set you free so why bother..."?

What is the answer, Jim? How do we fix it? Who can lead us out of this... and to where?

 

Dammmmm

 

Good question whats yer name.

I myself do not see any way out of it other then armed rebellion

 

Oops   crap I went and said it.

They will probably be knocking down my door around midnight.

Hmmm at least I wont miss the Originals .

[Jim1cor13]

Jim, I agree with most everything you said and I must say, you're gentle condescension never disappoints.

Curious... What party do you imagine we "loyalists" identify with?  I have no idea, I would hope it is with none of them.

 

Do you hold obama accountable for any of this $20 trillion? You bet I do, just as I hold GWB accountable, the FED, and

those who knew 30 years ago that we were headed in this direction and did nothing.

 

 

Do his collectivist policies and redistributive agenda not qualify as a threat to our economy and generational theft? Of course they do, just as the

shortsighted agendas of many past presidents contributed to our current fiscal nightmare.

 

What part of the coming collapse do you think we don't understand? What collapse are you referring to? Where did I accuse anyone of not

understanding about a collapse? I commented on party loyalists finding fault and not realizing their own parties are just as guilty and I base

this upon my own experience on a local level also where all I hear is bickering and blaming and never any solutions. We need more than one sided

discussions to try and find our way back to something that makes sense and is fair without any party loyalists. We need those loyal to our country

I think, above and beyond any political parties, but that is just my opinion based upon what I hear and read.

 

Does your superior grasp of the political/ideological battlefield enable you to look down upon us foot soldiers of Liberty? Why you think I have some supposed

"superior grasp" of these issues is beyond me. I am just trying to make sense out of the issues, and my heart tells me we are being played by a bunch of liars.

 

Do you think to yourself "tsk tsk, small-thinkers... TPTB will never set you free so why bother..."? Again, from where do you get this idea? How do you know what I am

thinking? I made a comment based upon my observations, and you tell me I am condescending and that I think you are all small-thinkers? Seriously?

What is the answer, Jim? How do we fix it? Who can lead us out of this... and to where? I can only speak for myself...I do not think any current group or politician has

the answer(s), and I personally do not think we can fix this mess as long as we continue to show support to a corrupt political system apart from being honest with

ourselves. do I have the answers? NO and no one I know seems to either, I only have a lot of questions and a desire to see this country be led by someone who actually

has its best interests at heart, and someone who does not lie for a living and tell people what they want to hear. I would like someone who will tell the truth based upon reality,

not using a bunch of polls and manipulated agendas along with the rest of the games. How does that make me your enemy or thinking I am "superior"? i am nothing

and I admit it, but I do like to think for myself, and I think you do also.

 

 

ALL should be held accountable. Period. I have no superior grasp of the political battlefield, only a discernment that

tells me it is all a sad bunch of BS coming from all parties. I never look down on others WHN, I never belittle others just

because they do not agree with me, you know that. I simply find it strange that so many seem to think that one party has

any solutions to this mess we are in. All I attempt to do is make sense of it all, and I fail at that because it does not make

sense to me so the only course of action that does make sense is for this country to start over, beginning with our

political system.

 

I have never been an Obama fan no more than I am a political fan of anyone, but I DO know he is not the only one to blame

for the current mess we are in, it was a long time coming especially the financial circus. Obama proved by his actions that he

is a poser like so many others. Do I have the answers? Personally, the only thing that makes sense to me is to rid this country of both

parties, because they are both to blame for our lack of direction and they are corrupt to the core. We do not have enough folks to

stand up against this batch of criminals nor those who are to come.

 

Then what happens next? Your guess is as good as mine dear. Your assumptions about what I wrote, did you think I was aiming them

at you or anyone in particular as it was a generic observation that I hear and see all the time on a local level and the results are always

the same, no solutions, just bickering, and to accuse me of some kind of superiority is nonsense. I do not play that game. I have no more

clue how to fix our mess than any one else. What I will not do is hide behind any political party and you will not find me cheerleading for

any candidate because history has shown me they do not keep their promises, nor will I join in the bashing of Obama because he is not

our only problem. His socialist views and policies do nothing but add more problems down the road for the US. It would appear to me that

so much of what is going on has been quite scripted, but I could be wrong like i am wrong every day about something.

 

Without some manner of house cleaning, which I have no idea how that would happen in reality, we cannot fix the problems we

have. Without all of us being honest with ourselves, I am very doubtful of our long term future as a country as long as we tolerate

corruption and blind greed.

 

If what I wrote seemed to appear as condescending, please forgive me, because that is not me at all, ever. I want to see progress as

much as anyone, and with the current team of politicians in charge, there is no solutions on the horizon, and that includes those

running in 2016. I do not want to be told what I want to hear, I want to see their actions support their words instead of betray them,

and I cannot find that in modern politics.

 

I get frustrated as much as anyone, but thinking any of us will arrive at finding answers debating it in a forum is simply not

going to happen. If we want our voice to be heard and we demand accountability inside the beltway, we have to get off these

forums and get out to those we need to communicate with and do so in a respectable manner.

 

Thanks for your questions. You never need to use any kind of intimidating approach with me, I am not your enemy and I

along with you want the best for all of us who reside inside this country. I also admit that I am nothing, I just like to think

for myself to try and sort through so much noise we hear.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Jim1cor13

[Jim1cor13]

Dammmmm

 

Good question whats yer name.

I myself do not see any way out of it other then armed rebellion

 

 

You are probably right dog, but I hope we do not take that path because it would get out of control

quickly. There is a time for armed rebellion, but that was before the gov. was as big as it is now,

and you can bet the guns would be turned upon anyone who did not agree with the leaders

of a rebellion, let alone trying to compete with modern weapons that could wipe out a town in seconds

without anyone knowing what hit them.

If the focus could stay upon the proper target, it may be of use, but too many innocents

would get caught in the crossfire.

 

We do not have enough true untiy in this country any longer to be able to pull off this type of tactic,

although I admit, it would be entertaining to see the hoards in washington running for the hills with

their tails between their legs. 

 

I would have no problem pulling a weapon on anyone threatening harm to my family or friends, but

i would not shoot to kill unless that harm was already inflicted, then it may get ugly. I hate to think

of those scenarios, but there are times when it is the only way to protect our families and neighbors,

friends. A rebellion is different, too manhy would get involved not to protect, etc., but to simply

vent their frustrations on others, at least that is what i could see happening.

 

I do think it appears someone is trying to find that breaking point by all the politicial nonsense going

on around us. I guess the question is not should we fight back, but what do you think is the best way

to do it without a broader civil war aimed at the wrong target and citizens killing each other instead of

running corruption out of DC.

[pattyangel]

Mr. O's cockeye ideas of running this Nation is so corrupt that neither parties are trustworthy.  There are  people who believe that Mr. O is only to blame for the tearing down of this country, not true, he is the puppet and a fine one at that. 

 

We need to clean, scrap, and sterilize, chew them up and kick the foul stench out from the state and local levels. 

 

The sad part of this, is that our children's children will be caught in the crosshairs of this big mess. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by pattyangel

[Whatshername]

Dammmmm

 

Good question whats yer name.

I myself do not see any way out of it other then armed rebellion

 

Oops   crap I went and said it.

They will probably be knocking down my door around midnight.

Hmmm at least I wont miss the Originals .

 

Thanks Dog.  We'll stand back to back if we have to.  

 

ALL should be held accountable. Period. I have no superior grasp of the political battlefield, only a discernment that

tells me it is all a sad bunch of BS coming from all parties. I never look down on others WHN, I never belittle others just

because they do not agree with me, you know that. I simply find it strange that so many seem to think that one party has

any solutions to this mess we are in. All I attempt to do is make sense of it all, and I fail at that because it does not make

sense to me so the only course of action that does make sense is for this country to start over, beginning with our

political system.

 

I have never been an Obama fan no more than I am a political fan of anyone, but I DO know he is not the only one to blame

for the current mess we are in, it was a long time coming especially the financial circus. Obama proved by his actions that he

is a poser like so many others. Do I have the answers? Personally, the only thing that makes sense to me is to rid this country of both

parties, because they are both to blame for our lack of direction and they are corrupt to the core. We do not have enough folks to

stand up against this batch of criminals nor those who are to come.

 

Then what happens next? Your guess is as good as mine dear. Your assumptions about what I wrote, did you think I was aiming them

at you or anyone in particular as it was a generic observation that I hear and see all the time on a local level and the results are always

the same, no solutions, just bickering, and to accuse me of some kind of superiority is nonsense. I do not play that game. I have no more

clue how to fix our mess than any one else. What I will not do is hide behind any political party and you will not find me cheerleading for

any candidate because history has shown me they do not keep their promises, nor will I join in the bashing of Obama because he is not

our only problem. His socialist views and policies do nothing but add more problems down the road for the US. It would appear to me that

so much of what is going on has been quite scripted, but I could be wrong like i am wrong every day about something.

 

Without some manner of house cleaning, which I have no idea how that would happen in reality, we cannot fix the problems we

have. Without all of us being honest with ourselves, I am very doubtful of our long term future as a country as long as we tolerate

corruption and blind greed.

 

If what I wrote seemed to appear as condescending, please forgive me, because that is not me at all, ever. I want to see progress as

much as anyone, and with the current team of politicians in charge, there is no solutions on the horizon, and that includes those

running in 2016. I do not want to be told what I want to hear, I want to see their actions support their words instead of betray them,

and I cannot find that in modern politics.

 

I get frustrated as much as anyone, but thinking any of us will arrive at finding answers debating it in a forum is simply not

going to happen. If we want our voice to be heard and we demand accountability inside the beltway, we have to get off these

forums and get out to those we need to communicate with and do so in a respectable manner.

 

Thanks for your questions. You never need to use any kind of intimidating approach with me, I am not your enemy and I

along with you want the best for all of us who reside inside this country. I also admit that I am nothing, I just like to think

for myself to try and sort through so much noise we hear.

 

Thank you.  I might have overshot if I came off as intimidating... I was going for irritated!  

 

Again, I don't disagree with you.  I find you to be very intellectual and thoughtful... which is why I don't understand your amusement at our perfectly reasonable nomenclature.  We know the difference between right and wrong and most here can easily identify the ideological differences that are the source of much of our angst.  We aren't too far down the PC craphole to call a spade a spade.

 

Would it surprise you to learn that there is a Contitutional-centered grassroots party (organically grown on forums just like this) that espouses most of your thoughts?  Whose "mission is to bring awareness to any issue which challenges the security, sovereignty or domestic tranquility of our beloved nation, The United States of America".  Besmirched and maligned as they were/are, by BOTH the left and the GOPestablishment, but still they fight on.  One is even running for president!    

 

With precious little exception, only the 'left' is represented in modern politics.  D and R share the same canoe... one is paddling furiously and the other just drags their ore as we head for the falls.  Personally, I'd like to throw a full beer at both their heads!  WORST FLOAT TRIP EVER!

 

Of course you're not the enemy.  It just doesn't always feel like you're with us either.  Often finding entertainment in our outrage and discounting our appreciation for the seriousness of our ideological battles with the Washington Cartel - when you yourself have no answers, only platitudes... comes off as condescending.  We don't want division.  But we will not compromise our values just to get along. 

 

You could be a good leader, Jim.  I just don't know where you're going.  

[dog53]

You are probably right dog, but I hope we do not take that path because it would get out of control

quickly. There is a time for armed rebellion, but that was before the gov. was as big as it is now,

and you can bet the guns would be turned upon anyone who did not agree with the leaders

of a rebellion, let alone trying to compete with modern weapons that could wipe out a town in seconds

without anyone knowing what hit them.

If the focus could stay upon the proper target, it may be of use, but too many innocents

would get caught in the crossfire.

 

We do not have enough true untiy in this country any longer to be able to pull off this type of tactic,

although I admit, it would be entertaining to see the hoards in washington running for the hills with

their tails between their legs. 

 

I would have no problem pulling a weapon on anyone threatening harm to my family or friends, but

i would not shoot to kill unless that harm was already inflicted, then it may get ugly. I hate to think

of those scenarios, but there are times when it is the only way to protect our families and neighbors,

friends. A rebellion is different, too manhy would get involved not to protect, etc., but to simply

vent their frustrations on others, at least that is what i could see happening.

 

I do think it appears someone is trying to find that breaking point by all the politicial nonsense going

on around us. I guess the question is not should we fight back, but what do you think is the best way

to do it without a broader civil war aimed at the wrong target and citizens killing each other instead of

running corruption out of DC.

 

 

What do I think?

Unfortunately I dont think there has ever been a clean war where innocents did not get hurt.

It is the way of war. But with that being said I didnt mean just total anarchy. Im talking about

State militias formed , trained , and properly armed. with concise objectives.

Unity

regulation

dicipline

No you cant just throw a million deer hunters out there with AR`s and expect things to go well.

But our forefathers fought the largest empire in the world.

And won

They did this by utilizing our greatest asset

Our brains 

[Shabibilicious]

Jim, I agree with most everything you said and I must say, you're gentle condescension never disappoints.

Curious... What party do you imagine we "loyalists" identify with? Do you hold obama accountable for any of this $20 trillion? Do his collectivist policies and redistributive agenda not qualify as a threat to our economy and generational theft? What part of the coming collapse do you think we don't understand? Does your superior grasp of the political/ideological battlefield enable you to look down upon us foot soldiers of Liberty? Do you think to yourself "tsk tsk, small-thinkers... TPTB will never set you free so why bother..."?

What is the answer, Jim? How do we fix it? Who can lead us out of this... and to where?

 

....and ultra conservative, constitutionalist, Donald Trump is the solution.    

 

GO RV, then BV

[coorslite21]

Good Thread.

 

Perhaps this is the solution.  Those Founding Fathers were a pretty smart group!

 

I suspect in time the changes that need to be made will happen in this manner.

 

+++++++++++++++

 

 

The Constitution, Article V, was established for the purpose of reigning in an out of control government.

 

Some people don’t believe it.

 

In school, we were taught, along with reading, ‘riting, and ‘rithmatic, how the Constitution is amended: an amendment must go before both houses of Congress and pass a two-thirds vote. Before it becomes a permanent part of the Constitution, three fourths of the state legislatures would have to ratify it.

 

But there’s another way to change the Constitution, and it’s hidden in plain sight in Article V, one that many of us have never even heard of. Here’s the text of Article V:

 

“The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, also as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress…”

 

Did you catch the second way to change the Constitution?

 

In addition to the way stated above, the founders put a little gift in Article V for us. In fact, George Mason is the one who made sure to include what some have called a “Constitutional Emergency Cord” to be pulled in case of government overreach. Mason urged his fellow founders, “It would be improper to require the consent of the National Legislature, because they may abuse their power, and refuse their consent on that very account.”

 

The founders paid attention to Mason’s argument and changed Article V to reflect this second way: Congress will call a convention if two thirds of the states petition to call a convention in which they can consider new amendments. In both the first and second scenarios, three fourths of the state legislatures must ratify the amendments before they become permanent.

 

Therein lies the beauty of Article V. It gives us two ways to change things up when times get challenging. Amending the Constitution isn’t too easy (which would throw society into chaos), and it’s not too hard (which would make the Constitution so rigid that the people might rebel against it).

 

Since the government has tried to reach into our homes, medical care, and pockets, frustrated citizens have talked of rebelling against the government or even secession. But this extreme reaction ignores the fact that the founders saw this day coming and gave us a Constitutional tool which allows us to restrain the out-of-control federal government. Knowing human nature, the founders knew the federal government would eventually grow like a fungus and try to cover every aspect of our lives. That’s why there’s a modern-day interest in Article V. Mark Levin’s book The Liberty Amendments brought it into the public eye, Glenn Beck has also been promoting it on his show, Hannity and Limbaugh are talking about it, and several well-known leaders – such as Tom Coburn, Michael Farris, Mike Huckabee, and David Barton – have publicly endorsed it.

 

As President of Citizens for Self-Governance, I’ve been advocating a convention of states since long before the idea reached the general public. We’ve even created a viable strategy to bring a convention to reality.

 

Many times, people lament how powerful and abusive our federal government has become, without realizing there’s a way to fight it – right there in Article V of the Constitution. So now you know. Now you see.

 

It is our moral obligation to use it.

 

Mark Meckler is the President of Citizens for Self-Governance, which created the Convention of States Project.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/02/10/article-v-an-emergency-solution-hidden-in-plain-sight/

[Jim1cor13]

 

Thanks Dog.  We'll stand back to back if we have to.  

 

 

Thank you.  I might have overshot if I came off as intimidating... I was going for irritated!  

 

Again, I don't disagree with you.  I find you to be very intellectual and thoughtful... which is why I don't understand your amusement at our perfectly reasonable nomenclature.  We know the difference between right and wrong and most here can easily identify the ideological differences that are the source of much of our angst.  We aren't too far down the PC craphole to call a spade a spade.

 

Would it surprise you to learn that there is a Contitutional-centered grassroots party (organically grown on forums just like this) that espouses most of your thoughts?  No surprise at all dear. In fact it is a good thing, my only issue is that at some point the mission has to go from the forum and meet people face to face beginning on the local level which I understand you are very aware of this

 

Whose "mission is to bring awareness to any issue which challenges the security, sovereignty or domestic tranquility of our beloved nation, The United States of America".  Besmirched and maligned as they were/are, by BOTH the left and the GOPestablishment, but still they fight on.  One is even running for president!  All good, but in order to bring awareness of any issue that challenges what is stated, we must be honest with ourselves about those issues AND who is involved. I say this because there are far too many issues given a blind eye because they represent something many are afraid to tackle and expose. One of the threats are special interest that no one seems to be able to stop the momentum of how washington has been bought and paid for and by whom. How can there be true leadership when the leader is beholden to those who foot their campaign bills and helped them enter office? it is skewed from the start but this is how the game is played. How do we stop this kind of manipulation and threat to the proper functioning of government? I think it is too late, and it cannot change without massive change from within the establishment, and I simply do not know how any group well meaning as they may be can affect this in a positive way until the system is purged. I do not see how the system can be purged from what it has matured into and is so corrupt. What does it take to deal with the deep level of this manner of corruption? The voting box? No, not in my opinion, because this has not worked for many years, and is easily controlled with numerous security holes, etc. That is just one little area we cannot even change...the entire system was hijacked, how do we return it to those who understand this and can assist in returning the political beast back to integrity?

 

With precious little exception, only the 'left' is represented in modern politics.  D and R share the same canoe (agreed, and how can this change without divesting this country from the current party system which is the root of the corruption and has been for 100 + years?) ... one is paddling furiously and the other just drags their ore as we head for the falls.  Personally, I'd like to throw a full beer at both their heads!  WORST FLOAT TRIP EVER!

 

Of course you're not the enemy.  It just doesn't always feel like you're with us either.  Often finding entertainment in our outrage and discounting our appreciation for the seriousness of our ideological battles with the Washington Cartel - when you yourself have no answers, only platitudes... comes off as condescending.  We don't want division.  But we will not compromise our values just to get along. 

 

You could be a good leader, Jim.  I just don't know where you're going. My history of communication should be sufficient to show that I never intend to come off as condescending, nor do I ever take the path to bash, belittle, etc. It is not my nature, it solves nothing. We are all to some extent trying to find our way daily. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is only fooling themselves, and the moment we take ourselves too seriously, we already lost the battle. I do not always know where I am going either WHN , but I do have experience at how the game is played and also a lot of life experience in matters that are both fulfilling and gut wrenching if that makes sense. I KNOW what I am, I have no delusion about that, my faults, my failures, regrets too numerous to mention, but I know my strengths also. I live honestly and treat others as I desire to be treated. what more are you looking for? I cannot change your perceptions about me or anyone else. I have no desire to join in political debates because they are as bad as religious debates, etc., everyone wants to be right...they often have little desire to find unity of purpose. You want what I think is an answer to our problems? LOVE, not the warm fuzzy that we all think is love, but the kind of love that commits to each other across the board, in the midst of all our petty disagreements. I do not have to agree with you or anyone in order to love them and treat them with respect. I do not have to support those things I myself do not support in order to find a common ground that I can work with. If we fail consistently at THIS most basic principle, how are we ever going to find solutions to the issues your raise on a broader scale?

 

Hi WHN

 

I made a few comments in red above. My only answer to what we are facing has to go back to the most basic foundation of love.

If we fail at that, we fail at everything.

 

We have failed, I think we are as much of the problem as those we detest because our words and often our actions accuse us, no

matter if we think we are right or think we have it "all together". We are divided as a country, we are falling into a very deep funk

that I do not see how it can be addressed until we get back to this basic foundation. If we cannot agree on this most basic principle,

then we are wasting our time trying to find solutions because we are not being honest with ourselves and others.

 

My direction is always seeking what is true, but I do not always know where that will lead me, nor do I have to, it is just one day at a time

and I am ok with that. I have seen and experienced both the good and the rotten of life, and as much as I dislike what I am about to say,

it is the rotten times in life that i have learned the most, both about myself and about others. We can either allow these moments to bring

out our best, or we can bi*ch and complain about it and allow it to drag us deeper into a dark place which breeds selfishness and contempt

towards the world in general. I have a long way to go, but I am honest with myself and learned the hard way to never take myself too seriously.

 

There is a lot of good left in this world, we must be careful how much we focus only on the bad. Love will get us through, but it usually just makes

people roll their eyes and think somehow that makes one 'weak', when in fact it is just the opposite.

 

Have a good weekend, thanks for the discourse, and I am sorry you perceived me to sometimes be something that I am definitely not. Perhaps i

did come off in a way that was unintended, for that I am sorry as it is just not me. Keep thinking for yourself, and never be afraid to ask questions,

it is how we learn and become honest with ourselves and with others. Maybe if we turned off and muted all the distractions in our lives, perhaps

things would be different, and we would get back to communicating with each other in a way that would be more constructive instead of just black

on white text. That is sometimes difficult to reveal the intent of ones words.

 

Jim

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jim1cor13

[Whatshername]

Hi WHN

 

I made a few comments in red above. My only answer to what we are facing has to go back to the most basic foundation of love.

If we fail at that, we fail at everything.

 

We have failed, I think we are as much of the problem as those we detest because our words and often our actions accuse us, no

matter if we think we are right or think we have it "all together". We are divided as a country, we are falling into a very deep funk

that I do not see how it can be addressed until we get back to this basic foundation. If we cannot agree on this most basic principle,

then we are wasting our time trying to find solutions because we are not being honest with ourselves and others.

 

My direction is always seeking what is true, but I do not always know where that will lead me, nor do I have to, it is just one day at a time

and I am ok with that. I have seen and experienced both the good and the rotten of life, and as much as I dislike what I am about to say,

it is the rotten times in life that i have learned the most, both about myself and about others. We can either allow these moments to bring

out our best, or we can bi*ch and complain about it and allow it to drag us deeper into a dark place which breeds selfishness and contempt

towards the world in general. I have a long way to go, but I am honest with myself and learned the hard way to never take myself too seriously.

 

There is a lot of good left in this world, we must be careful how much we focus only on the bad. Love will get us through, but it usually just makes

people roll their eyes and think somehow that makes one 'weak', when in fact it is just the opposite.

 

Have a good weekend, thanks for the discourse, and I am sorry you perceived me to sometimes be something that I am definitely not. Perhaps i

did come off in a way that was unintended, for that I am sorry as it is just not me. Keep thinking for yourself, and never be afraid to ask questions,

it is how we learn and become honest with ourselves and with others. Maybe if we turned off and muted all the distractions in our lives, perhaps

things would be different, and we would get back to communicating with each other in a way that would be more constructive instead of just black

on white text. That is sometimes difficult to reveal the intent of ones words.

 

Jim

 

Hey Jim  

 

Please do not apologize.     I'm very difficult to truly offend!  I do appreciate you taking the time to address my queries.  I need clarity and I thank you for providing it.  I will attempt the same...

 

There are many lies and many truths.  You and I (and many others here) are awake to a lot of the same truths.  To stay on point, let's just use the $20 trillion Treasury debt in the OP.  We know the truth and consequences of this (not to mention the $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities).  Perhaps our contempt seems futile to you... and ultimately, maybe it is.  Maybe that's what annoys me... that we agree on so much but our responses to it are so different.  You don't have to think or respond in lockstep with us.  But know this... conservative outrage is the ONLY pushback to this big government fiscal disaster and threats to our liberty.  You see it for what it is but you're not outraged.  You're not surprised at all because you saw it coming and have already made up your mind that it's too far gone and just isn't worth fighting for.  Conscientious objector does not suit you - FIGHT!  VOTE!  ENCOURAGE!  INSPIRE!  What do you have to lose?  And if you can't or won't, please don't disparage our efforts and opinions as we reel from whatever fresh hell, evil dujour that's been thrust upon us.  We verbalize our outrage because we can.  We resist because we must... and we could use your support, knowledge, and certitude.  

 

Never give up... Never surrender.  I love your vision.  I love love!  But love alone isn't practical in a world so full of hate, deceit and evil.  It's just never gonna happen  (Well, NEVER say never    Come Lord Jesus)  <-- While we wait for that, we prepare for the inevitable... and we FIGHT!  Join us!  

[pattyangel]

Excellent conversation between Jim and WHN...both are pretty much saying the same thing but in different verbiage.  Both have a golden heart for their country.  Thanks for sharing!!!

 

But you're right WHN, love alone will not conquer this evil, it will take divine intervention, so the love of God is our winner.  God as our sovereign over our nation is indicated in the Declaration of Independence.  We have to remember God will act on our behalf.(b 

 

Although we must not, can not, should not, be silent in defending our liberties. 

 

We may be mere shepherds, but we have to be the DAVID'S of the world and defeat evil.  We must protect the Constitution!!!

[Jim1cor13]

Hey Jim  

 

Please do not apologize.     I'm very difficult to truly offend!  I do appreciate you taking the time to address my queries.  I need clarity and I thank you for providing it.  I will attempt the same...

 

There are many lies and many truths.  You and I (and many others here) are awake to a lot of the same truths.  To stay on point, let's just use the $20 trillion Treasury debt in the OP.  We know the truth and consequences of this (not to mention the $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities).  Perhaps our contempt seems futile to you... and ultimately, maybe it is.  No not futile, but the contempt does not change anything, and in some cases I do not think the contempt is genuine. These figures are horrible, but no one wants to address it other than bit*h about it, while the numbers grow. The system broke many years ago, it just takes time to filter down to where many feel it. We were not able to stop the bail out in 2008, no one asked the public to vote on it, and the problem just keeps getting larger. This stuff is not a game we are watching, those who have benefitted from the 2007 - 2008 systemic breakdown are many, and it goes beyond politics, far beyond into schemes outside of the beltway. To try and make it only a political issue is missing the big picture as to WHY these things happen...what is behind them and who holds the purse strings. For ANYONE to ever accept a bail out of criminal bankers and then have that debt passed on to the public, what does this say about us??? We did not do anything back then except bitc* about it, and we still are 8 years later. This is the futile part I see.

 

Maybe that's what annoys me... that we agree on so much but our responses to it are so different.  I cannot help it if my responses do not match your style of contempt, nor can I help it if my response annoys you. I approach matters differently, but that should not annoy you. Nothing changes if I start screaming and writing in a manner that is not constructive nor does anything change if i bash and tear apart for some kind of game or to stir others up or call others the typcial political labels, libs, libtards, etc. makes no sense to me. What is that supposed to prove to anyone? How will it help us find solutions?

 

You don't have to think or respond in lockstep with us.  I cannot be in lockstep with actions I deem as political sport. Name calling, belittling, to me does not and cannot arrive at solutions. Look at how our political system reacts to each other such as the candidates. name calling, shouting, accusing, how does this help anything? No I would not involve myself in it because that IS futile and to me not constructive behavior.

 

But know this... conservative outrage is the ONLY pushback to this big government fiscal disaster and threats to our liberty.  So far conservative outrage has changed nothing. I share the outrage, but again, I have listened to the so called outrage on a local level, I have talked with people about issues and those talks always end up in the same manner...an attempt to argue and start the shouting matches, and then the name calling, etc. See what i am getting at? Although I can sometimes get through to some, I do not see on a local level a genuine outrage. I see more emotional response void of heart, and too many justifying taking part in the same tactics as their opponents. This can never be constructive in my opinion.

 

You see it for what it is but you're not outraged.  you think I am not outraged because I fail to react in the same manner as others. This is an error, because I try and steer any outrage I feel towards something constructive instead of going for the political jugular vein using tactics that do more harm than good. I see and hear the same statements on a local level that I see online, so far I do not see the results this outrage is supposed to have. I would rather talk face to face as I do with others, and it too often ends up with more complaining and bit*hing that goes no where.

 

You're not surprised at all because you saw it coming and have already made up your mind that it's too far gone and just isn't worth fighting for.  You take great liberty with your assumptions my dear. What is just and good is always worth fighting for in the proper manner. What I think is too far gone is the ability for level headed people to be able to address the issues that trouble all of us in a manner that finds real steps to begin dismantling this corrupt system we are in. We are too small to change it, it has to be gutted and I cannot see how outrage and anger and contempt can do this apart from anarchy. All those descriptive words are just that...words not solutions. Perhaps instead of using all the key words that one thinks are effective, we should have local common law courts that would address these issues on a legal basis and hold a public grand jury towards the arrest and detention of those deemed as corrupting influence. This is going on in some states, but it would appear the corrupt parties are above the law, and they often are because they write them! this IS frustrating because even legal attempts to stop the corruption fail so far. So what can we do? How can we approach this with the view and goal to dismantle this corrupt beast? What about the controlling factors outside of washington? The special interest 3 letter groups, the lobbies, the financial stronghold upon those who no longer serve the people but serve themselves and thier own interests? How do we suppose to be able to confront that element? Legally? We both know laws are broken daily by these criminals, who is holding them accountable? Legal action so far has failed. We should never give up, I agree, but what options are left on the table for the average conservative minded person who truly wants to see this current system stop gutting the country and the people? Are our voicees strong enough? Do we have unity of purpose? We must possess much more than just outrage and name calling, we must also have the resources to confront and convict right? Where would these resources originate from? Just another group wanting control? We cannot continue to play the same political game that we see others play.

 

Conscientious objector does not suit you - FIGHT!  VOTE!  ENCOURAGE!  INSPIRE!  I am far from conscientious objector, but all those words have yet to solve our problems. They may muster up a few, but it soon falters because maybe our focus has been misdirected for too long. Washington is only part of our problem the way I see it. Again, there are forces outside of that fairy tale that are behind the scenes, those who have the means to effect change that is not for our good as a nation while those of us who care about this nation always end up stuck in the box they create for us politically and financially. Who is addressing this box, who is thinking outside of this box we live in? it goes beyond washington, so how do we get out of it? Unless we are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for good people to confront and convict not just corrupt politicians, but also their financial interests, we will continue to lose this insane battle. i wish it were different, but so far, we are losing because there is too much confusion and lack of focus, at least this is what I see locally. What do I see locally? Same manner of politics...the ones that get voted in office are usually the ones who have the most resources, not because they are qualified. This has gone on for so long, it is accepted...what about the national level? Candidates having to come up with 100's of millions of dollars or more just to run for president??? what kind of insanity have we accepted? what about those qualified that never get a chance because they do not have the special interest behind them? THIS is the root of our problems, this lack of special interest funds disqualifies many who are actually qualified. How do we change this without replacing the entire system?

 

What do you have to lose?  And if you can't or won't, please don't disparage our efforts and opinions I have never disparaged any efforts, I only can comment on what I see has so far failed to find solutions both on a local level and on a national level. This does not reflect on you or anyone else here, it is an observation, not disparaging anyone or anyones opinions. We all have opinions, we all should share them constructively not just here but also locally, and I have, but so far I already mentioned what I see and hear...it never changes and so we have to make the effort to find what works and then stay focused. Maybe we have been far too shallow in our attempts, maybe we have failed because too many agenda's, too many shotgun approaches that never targets the problems in an orderly manner. Making suggestions and stating observations is not disparaging ones efforts, it is only an attempt to approach matters in a different manner than just playing "libs" against "cons". Our problem is much deeper than mere labels. Corruption runs deep within both of these realms, so we have to understand again, what the real target is. Making it all about libs and cons is simply not enough, it may be "fun" for some so they can play the sport, but it will not resolve our problems.

 

as we reel from whatever fresh hell, evil dujour that's been thrust upon us.  We verbalize our outrage because we can.  We resist because we must... and we could use your support, knowledge, and certitude. You have my support, I just cannot join in with methods that will not and can not work in the long run. We must have depth to our convictions, not just outrage or anger or resistance. They serve a purpose for sure, but efforts must go deeper than what I see locally. We cannot continue to address our problems with only emotional responses as this runs deeper than emotion, we are talking about watching our nation being dismantled by not just the political forces, but that evil dujour you speak of is often outside of our sight. Unless those who are willing to resist and verbalize this resistance can find someone who will tell the truth about WHO is behind the curtain so they also can be confronted and convicted along with the corrupt political realm, I see efforts coming to the same conclusion...they are worthy efforts for sure...but they fall short because too much is overlooked.

 

Never give up... Never surrender.  I love your vision.  I love love!  But love alone isn't practical in a world so full of hate, deceit and evil.  Sure it is, it helps us keep focus and not get bogged down with emotional baggage. It helps us think clearly and remain fair while we learn to turn the tables on those who would hurt and corrupt this nation. Let those guilty taste their own manner of corrupt tactics without prejudice, while those who understand love and its power pick up the pieces and rebuild after the political and special interest freaks are rendered benign.  It's just never gonna happen It can happen if we stop playing politics, reject the PC nonsense and act like adults who understand how the game is played and bring the corruption to kight, exsposing it for what it is...THAT is the action of love, it is not emotion, it is demanding what is right and just, and holding accountable those who have violated those virtues.  (Well, NEVER say never    Come Lord Jesus)  <-- While we wait for that, we prepare for the inevitable... and we FIGHT!  Join us! I am active behind the scenes in various ways but I just conduct my efforts differently. Once I am able to help some on a local basis admit that our problems go beyond the surface of politics, I have actually had some constructive conversations and results, but so far that has not changed how local politics are run. it is a frustrating adventure, if one can call it that, because it is more complex than just hating some party or candidate or voting with ones pocketbook, etc. We must look beyond the surface, and not allow the busyness of life to any longer distract our focus and efforts. We cannot allow our own selfishness to continue to influence our motives, if we can all understand and join together for the good of the nation, outside of our own little world, I think we have a chance to see some victories, even though the battle is an uphill one. Without a willingness to make personal sacrifices, I fear all we will accomplish is hot air.

 

Have a good weekend Whn, somehow in the end, hopefully more things will make sense and we will understand why so often the unqualified end up in positions they have no right to be in...and to understand this we must not be ignorant of how the money flows behind the scenes, and by whom. They all must be addressed if we hope to realize the best for this nation.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Jim1cor13

[Whatshername]

Hmmm... very revealing.  Thank you Jim.  I'm beginning to understand - it is you who've been disparaged by your own local political process.  I feel ya!  It can be frustrating to watch their eyes glaze over.  Then the thought bubble emerges over their heads and you can barely read it but it says "uh oh! Conspiracy Theorist... RUN!".  Lol!  It's painful discovering that so many in politics either don't know the truths or worse, don't care.  I assume those that do know and do care feel powerless to change 'politics as usual' so they play the game that often leads to corruption.  Probably best to ease into that convo, huh?

 

I never meant to imply you should join our rough and tumble discourse... clearly it's not your style.  But don't underestimate the fun and satisfaction of Political Sport!  I love to hammer at inferior ideological theory.  Personally, I'm not PC and let's just say, I prefer tackle to touch!    Gloriously imperfect but highly effective!  Collectivism is the easiest to flame... effortless really.  Victimology is a blast!  Feminism... piece of cake!  Environmentalism (global warming)...    See a trend?   There is a war going on and it's for the mind.  LEFTist ideology is deeply flawed and must be challenged.  I have my style, you have yours.  True Conservatism may be the political underdog but when well articulated, it wins every time!  We absolutely do have the common sense solutions to much of what ails us.  It IS clarity through intellectual honesty.

 

Finally, what I WAS implying... You're wonderful, brilliant and generous with your thoughts!     Now... get over yourself!  Bitching about people bitching (about things you fundamentally agree with) is no way to go through life, dear.  And ask yourself which is worse,  ignorance or apathy?