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Free Will or Predestination?


George Hayduke
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You are either of God, or not, then you are of the devil, the spirit of the flesh. Born of the Spirit or not. You must be "born again". John 3:

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Wm13

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Good post, learning all i can.  I greatly appreciate that name. I think thats the way I am.  I am studying and learning all I can and as the time for my departure gets closer, I thirst for even more.  

 

I do think that the desire must be placed in the mind/heart of someone before they can even start looking for God.  I must qualify what I just said.  There is in the heart of every human being an emptiness and a yearning for "something." It has been referred to as a "hole" which must be filled.  It is natural to fill the hole with whatever pleases us, whatever we enjoy, whatever is rational to accept as the filler of the "hole."  Without any knowledge of God, man begins to fill that hole with what he believes to be his god.  In Jeremiah 10 there is a criticism of Judah for going out, cutting down a tree, cutting out a carving, covering it with gold and silver, and then putting it up in the house and worshiping it as god. The desire to have a physical, household "god" was placed in their mind because of the people of the nations around them.  The desire was not there until they saw what those nations were doing.  

In New Guinea there are hundreds of languages and tribes. Every valley has their own culture and the way they do things.  The way they learn is by trading with the other tribes and seeing what they are doing and would like to have in their village.  When they see something that pleases them, they bring the idea back to their people and teach them how to make whatever object or food they have encountered.  A desire was created that they did not have before.

The great commission given by the Lord was to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned" (Mk 16:15-16).  If the disciples had not obeyed the Master's commission, you and I would not be believers today.  If you leave men without the knowledge of the gospel, they will have "gods" of their own making.

Paul, the apostle, states that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God "(Rm 10:17).  Unless the message is heard there can be no faith. (I include reading on ones own as "hearing.") In another passage, Paul has warned the Thessalonians about being led astray by satanic teachers and what is false.  Then he says, But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation IN sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the TRUTH.  And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Thess 2:13-14). God has called us into the entire program of salvation and sanctification.  The means of our heart or mind being motivated and our desires stimulated is by hearing the message of the gospel.  That is also the meaning of Romans 8:29-30.  That is, the predetermined plan of God was that the believers be conformed to the image of His Son, that we become the the firstborn ones.  So, God called us, justified us, and glorified us!  But the first desire to know Christ came when we were called by the gospel.  

It would be difficult to stimulate the heart any other way.  The work of the Spirit is to magnify the Son and He does so when the gospel is preached or taught.  

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Excellent posts all the way through and some great perspectives on an interesting topic. A few thoughts before I forget.

  1. Abraham was accounted faithful before the covenant. He had something worthy of the offer.
  2. God’s law is written on our hearts, which to me goes beyond circumstances, I.e. in our hearts we know right from wrong.
  3. Nelg, great commentary on creation. I would add, Lucifer and his followers fell before we did and they were cast out. From Isaiah quoting Lucifer, ‘I will be like the most high”, same temptation he pulled with Eve, ‘you will be like God knowing good and evil’, as he is the father of disobedience he introduced disobedience into God’s creation. Adam chose to follow Eve’s defiant act and the fullness of Humanity, both woman and man was deceived, with freedom to choose that path, a reconciliation and atonement greater than the evil is now needed, enter Jesus.

 

Many of the posts move forward form the here and now and perhaps the then and when should be considered also. Obviously we are not robots and the same stimulus will create an infinite number of responses in us when we factor in the mental, emotional, spiritual, social etc. balance of those choices.

 

My thoughts:

What is out of our control?

We cannot choose our parents or our siblings, the place that we are born and how we are raised.  The wisdom of righteousness or the foolishness of evil we encounter in our home. We cannot choose the food we put on the table as a child, a discipline of prayer and fasting set, involvement in charitable acts, attending church etc. the school we attend and the list goes on.

 

We are not just suddenly here, we are born and raised. So to me, the process of salvation and pre-destination begins before we are born when God places the soul in the womb, of the womb, of the womb all the way back in our genealogy. Parents play a critical role in forming their children’s understanding and interpretation of the world and this speaks to the probability of making like choices. When God chooses our parents and the child that will be received with our co-operation, there is a likely result that will occur from that placement, no absolute, but likely. God has always played a role in bringing man back and He is not a casual observer, His desire is that we seek out His will so that He may direct our steps. “Raise a child in the ways of the Lord and when he is old he will not depart from it.” SO TO ME, the whole pre-destination concept, like salvation, is very complex as are the factors that play into our eternal judgment. I like TANKDUDE’s flow chart concept. God knows all the possible outcomes of any choice we make. While choosing God’s choices also lead to consequences, perhaps some difficult, but when executed, they are consequences that edify us and lead to salvation. God will not abandon us, if we follow God He will lead.

 

But ultimately, God will save whom He will save and have mercy upon those He will have mercy upon, be they a gang banger or the Holy Hermit, God is He who searches mind and heart and will give to each according to their deeds because like us, God is free and made us free. Nelg said it well; we must hear the call and choose to be transformed by its message.  God has done His part in that He has pre-made, pre-formed, pre-approved, pre-destined the road that leads us to eternal life made complete in Jesus Christ. He has sent the comforter that we may never walk alone, He has given us the saints that we may have excellent role models and He has made us free to choose Him even unto and beyond death.

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Nelg i agree with you, let me offer my opinion:

 

Jesus signed off on the gentiles free will of choice at the cross. Yes God know our every move, every though, every thing we will do in the future on top of what we do now. Does he intervene, yes and no and mostly if we want that, i mean sincerely want that, it can't just be talk or a spur of the moment thing, he knows the difference. Our destiny's is determined somewhat through this free will of choice and that's not to say he don't know at some point we will chance course or will stay the same until death. Free will of choice is one of his gifts to us to deside if we want his saving grace or the alterative.

 

You would be surprised at how many people has given no thought to the after life because death is death, that's it it finished. They can't seem to realize that there is a life after death either in torment or heaven. People speak of Global Warming they haven't seen nothing yet.

 

I will finish with this...the original question was Free will or predestination. Each one of us while in our bodies has a chance to change our utilmate destinations with free will of choice. Jesus will not push himself on no one who doesn't not want him in their lives, but accountability comes with that. At the end when you draw your last breath what ever choice you made at that moment will be your destination. He wants every one created to be with him in glory but many will not because of the deceiver. Your choice of your destination is yours while you breath then it becomes God's. It's simple destiny in glory or destiny in torment. JEsus said i am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except by me.

AMEN--VERY GOOD I AGREE

FREE WILL

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Good evening everyone,

@Nelg, thank you but I must admit, most of my post was base on the writings of Jonathan Edwards and R.C. Sproul(yep that Reformed Theologian) that Hayduke brought up at the beginning of this thread. I just threw in a few extra words here and there to make it sound good!

I have some questions, if you don,t mind. I just feel that Ive got to understand a couple of things before I can address certain things. After readig your post, I felt somewhat confused as to what most of you consider as free will. You qouted (2Thess. 2:13-14) and (Romans 8:29-30). Im not confused with the passages but confused as how these connect with free will. Of course, I have dug a little deeper here to settle my mind and know what this belief of freewill means to the Christian/believer.

I can certainly see that I am out numbered here with the majority of others here, but thats ok. I just want to know for sure what everyone is thinking or believingnd why. I didnt start searching and seeking until our Lord took me as His on ..

This is what I found and just need/want to know is this most belief.

Thank you in advance

The vast majority of Christians who reject the Reformed view of predestination adopt what is what is sometimesalled the prcient or forknowledge (pre-science, prior knowledge) view of predestination. Briefly state, this view teaches that from all of eternitygod knew how we would live. He knew in advance whethr we would receive Christ or reject Christ. He knew our free choice§ before we evr made them. Gods choice of our eternal destiny then was madeon the basis of what he knew we would choose. He chooses us because he knows that we will choose Him. The elect, then are those who God know will choose Christ freely.

Is this it? is this what most here believe? I guess before now Ive never really thought about freewill and what predestination that doesnt come from Reformed thology really meant. Hard to believe something if we cant truely wrap our minds around it. Im not one that just goes withh the crowd or what my family rew me up on. I need the truth.

I thank you all for any feed back on this. If this is incorrect, please tell me what is right.

Barb

Edited by learning all i can
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Good evening willy1der.   Thanks for the complement.  I was just 1dering  :)  if you ever got through the notes on the Spirit? 

Not yet nelg. My father was with me and had surgery for cancer and I was busy tending to him. He is fine now. Then I got married the end of July and have been enjoying my bride. But your teaching is on the list. What I have been focusing on is my identity in Christ, who I belong to and how the fullness of God lives in me. I had an opportunity to preach a month ago and it was nice to share God's love in the church. Preparing a message on God's love at this time, I believe I'll get to share it soon, possibly during a community outreach. I spoke with my Pastor about going out to the community to reach them because they're not coming to the church. He said let's plan to do it during Thanksgiving or Christmas, he works for the school system in our community. Getting back to your teaching there is a LOT of info and I don't want to skim over it. I want to set time aside to study it. The first few pages answered some questions but then my father came to stay. I appreciate you, your knowledge and wisdom of God's word which only comes from studying to show yourself approved and intimacy with the Godhead.

God bless!

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Good evening everyone,

@Nelg, thank you but I must admit, most of my post was base on the writings of Jonathan Edwards and R.C. Sproul(yep that Reformed Theologian) that Hayduke brought up at the beginning of this thread. I just threw in a few extra words here and there to make it sound good!

I have some questions, if you don,t mind. I just feel that Ive got to understand a couple of things before I can address certain things. After readig your post, I felt somewhat confused as to what most of you consider as free will. You qouted (2Thess. 2:13-14) and (Romans 8:29-30). Im not confused with the passages but confused as how these connect with free will. Of course, I have dug a little deeper here to settle my mind and know what this belief of freewill means to the Christian/believer.

I can certainly see that I am out numbered here with the majority of others here, but thats ok. I just want to know for sure what everyone is thinking or believingnd why. I didnt start searching and seeking until our Lord took me as His on ..

This is what I found and just need/want to know is this most belief.

Thank you in advance

The vast majority of Christians who reject the Reformed view of predestination adopt what is what is sometimesalled the prcient or forknowledge (pre-science, prior knowledge) view of predestination. Briefly state, this view teaches that from all of eternitygod knew how we would live. He knew in advance whethr we would receive Christ or reject Christ. He knew our free choice§ before we evr made them. Gods choice of our eternal destiny then was madeon the basis of what he knew we would choose. He chooses us because he knows that we will choose Him. The elect, then are those who God know will choose Christ freely.

Is this it? is this what most here believe? I guess before now Ive never really thought about freewill and what predestination that doesnt come from Reformed thology really meant. Hard to believe something if we cant truely wrap our minds around it. Im not one that just goes withh the crowd or what my family rew me up on. I need the truth.

I thank you all for any feed back on this. If this is incorrect, please tell me what is right.

Barb

 

Barb - my input below:

 

"The vast majority of Christians who reject the Reformed view of predestination adopt what is what is sometimes called the prescient or foreknowledge (pre-science, prior knowledge) view of predestination. Briefly stated, this view teaches that from all of eternity God knew how we would live. He knew in advance whether we would receive Christ or reject Christ. He knew our free choices before we ever made them."

 

He also knows the choices we don’t make.  Adam and Eve did not have to sin.  They were given Free Will to continue fellowship with God in a sinless environment.  I think it’s safe to say God desired that sinless fellowship to continue for all mankind as well. As such, there would be no need for the condemnation of sin or atonement. However, that’s not how it worked out is it?  Even so, God still knew the possibility of that reality before mankind sinned and fell.

 

"God’s choice of our eternal destiny then was made on the basis of what he knew we would choose."

 

Depending on a person’s use of Free Will their destiny will result with an eternal residence in either Heaven or Hell.  Neither Heaven nor Hell exists simply as destinations of our choices but, they are two very real places we can choose to reside in forever and ever and ever…

 

 

"He chooses us because he knows that we will choose Him."

 

I would rather look at it this way; God acknowledges the choices of men whether they accept or reject him.

 

"The elect, then are those who God know will choose Christ freely."

 

The elect (saved) are those God knew in advance would accept Christ’s atoning sacrifice.  Conversely, the damned are those God knew in advance would reject Christ’s atoning sacrifice.  In other words, God did not choose man’s destiny prior to man’s choice but he did provide the option of destiny prior to man’s choice.

 

"Is this it? is this what most here believe? I guess before now I've never really thought about freewill and what predestination that doesn't come from Reformed theology really meant. Hard to believe something if we can’t truly wrap our minds around it. I’m not one that just goes with the crowd or what my family grew me up on. I need the truth."

 

It does appear most on this thread believe in Free Will from an evangelical point of view.  It is a view I choose to believe as true.

 

I hope I have helped you better understand the choices you are free to make…

 

GH 

This is the third attempt to post my reply, hopefully it will only post once. 

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Good evening Barb,

 

 

It does seem that most of us are in agreement, but I think that it just “seems” that we agree.  I think once we get into the discussion there will be more who hold the Reformed view than are posting at the present.  I will say that I attended a Reformed Theological Seminary for one of my degrees and enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

I will try to explain my understanding of predestination and what I meant by citing the passages. 

First, predestination is not an individual “pre-determining” of what an individual will or will not do. In other words I don’t think God has a book for each person with a blueprint of all that the person will do or say, as well as determining the choices that person will make.  

 

What is predestined is the Plan and Will of God to save mankind from sin and death.  That “will” or “plan” was totally mapped out before the foundation of the world.  That would mean that it was established in the mind of God before mankind came into existence.  That plan was based on the foreknowledge of what man (Adam and Eve) would do: sin.  Because of the propensity of humans to naturally follow their desires of what they see, they feel, and the power they crave, they would sin by misuse and abuse of the gifts God had given to them.  Thus, mankind would be by nature, children of wrath (Eph 2:1-3).  God, knowing that man would sin and bring in physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death devised a plan to redeem mankind and destroy the power of all three deaths.  That plan was for God to come in the flesh to do what man could not do on his own.  So from the beginning or entrance of sin into the world, God worked His plan through Abraham’s seed to bring this blessing to all mankind (Gen 12:1-3).  God in His foreknowledge carried out the predetermined plan by working through Israel, Judah, and certain individuals from the Gentiles to make sure that everything was accomplished. Of course that is the scarlet thread that runs through the entire OT.  He used Jacob and Esau and their particular foibles to accomplish the task (Rom 9:6-19).  God “elected” those who were to carry out His will and He made sure that His predetermined plan was carried out to completion. 

 

Once Christ came “in the fullness of time” and died on the cross, bore all the sins of mankind and suffered the wrath of God for us, and was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father, the predestinated plan was near completion.  Jesus presented His blood before God and poured forth the Holy Spirit to indwell the heart of the believer the predetermined plan was completed.  Individuals now have a way to reconcile and fellowship with God. Here is the determination of those who are elect – those who have faith and obey Christ Jesus are now “in Him” and are the elect.  (The Scripture references were not included.  They will be provided if necessary, but this story is generally known I saw no reason to include them.  I know, that’s a big assumption on my part.)

 

The definition you gave is the Reform view of election, but I do not believe it reflects the biblical definition of election.  The subtle difference is that the Reform view is in reverse. 

Of all passages of Scripture touching the matter of election, Ephesians 1:3-14 is the foundation passage. In this doxology, as in certain other Scriptures, an essential aspect of election is explicit: the election is Christ centric.  The first step toward a correct understanding of the Biblical doctrine of election is the recognition that the election of individuals is comprehended only “in Christ;” outside of Christ there is no election of any individual.  Now what does that mean?  God did not choose a person because He knew they would believe, but God chooses a person because they DID believe!  “God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4).  Thus the gospel message of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is proclaimed.  A person listens to the gospel, believes and obeys the gospel and is placed “In Christ.”  Those “in Christ” are the elect and chosen of God.

 

The coming of Jesus into this world was for the purpose of dying and shedding His blood for “all” humanity.  The atonement is a holy fact of many facets, but I’m not going to go into all those things in this short post.  The NT concept of atonement is that it involves ransom, redemption, and propitiation – all concerned primarily with God and His holiness rather than with man.  It is for mankind, but it looks toward God and the vindication of His holiness, that He might be “just and the justifier” of those that believe in Jesus (Rm 3:26). The propitiation brought about by Christ is toward God, for man. It was offered to satisfy God for the sake of God Himself, but more especially to satisfy the necessities of His moral economy and the kingdom He purposed from eternity and to provide the only circumstance in which and individual, having sinned, could become part of the kingdom of God. 

An integral part of the Reform or Calvinistic system of theology is the doctrine of limited atonement, which means that Christ’s atonement was only for those “elected” for salvation. In a way that is true.  Salvation through the atonement is only for those “in Christ.”  But it does not limit the recipients as only those whom God has “chosen” while those He has not “chosen” must remain as lost, whether they desire to be saved or not. 

 

 

However, I believe the fault in this theology, that only the elect are predestined to be saved, falls under the weight of biblical passages that indicate that the atonement and salvation is for everyone, and that it is their choosing of Christ (belief) that determines their destiny.

 

For example:

     “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself (2Co 5:19).

     “God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1Tim 2:4-6).

     “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jno 1:29. 

     “For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men” (Titus 2:11)

There are many more which indicate that the grace extended was a universal grace.  It was unlimited.  To this even the Reform and Calvinist would agree.

But what is provided by the atonement to “all men” or “the world” benefits only those who “receive it.” The Gospel of John is a catalogue of passages that underscore the responsibility and choice that the hearer must make.  Passages like John 1:11; 3:16-21; 6:33, 35, 51 or Mark 16:15-16 or 1Tim 4:10 all indicate that “faith” is the element the hearer must choose if they are to be saved. 

 

 

In other words, our redemption depends on God’s decision and our decision.  His decision was that those in Christ are the elect.  My entrance into Christ is by faith and obedience to Him (Jno 3:36; Rom 5:1; Gal 3:22-29).

Some will, I am sure, declare that that would destroy the sovereignty of God.  But does it? Not in the least.  It was His sovereign plan that predetermined that the elect/chosen will be those in Christ or those who believe in Christ.  The sovereignty of God does not need to be established.  The sovereignty does not depend, for either its existence or its manifestation, on either the fact or the mode of election.  God is sovereign, regardless of whether He elects, or does not elect, whether He elects some are all, whether election is conditional, or unconditional.  Faith and obedience is (not “are”) the response to the message of the gospel. 

 

 

Just one more point to consider, The passages positing foreknowledge (1Pt 1:2; Rom 8:28-30; 11:2) and predestination (Ep 1:3-14) obviously comprehend individuals, but only within the context of the corporate election of those “in Christ” or the church, or the Israel of God (Gal 6:14-16).

 

The Gospel commission given by our Lord to His disciples is to “all nations . . .all the world . . . every creature.”  The gospel call is as broad as the command to repent --  to “all men everywhere” (Acts 17:30). 

Now, I don’t know if mudded the water or let the stream run clear, but these are quick ramblings. 

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I hope I have helped you better understand the choices you are free to make…

 

GH

I have only used a couple of the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ on why I must believe as I do. There is so much more.

Pauls teches over and over and over again that we in our natural state cannot make a choice to pick God. He tells us we are spiritually dead..We are not just spiritually dead on our death bed, where we may be able to choose to take some medicine and make us well......He says we are DEAD.....The spiritually dead can do nothing

Yes GH, you have helped me tremendously and I sincerely appreciate your time

Thankyou

Barb

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GH and Nelg, I appreciate both of you addressing my concerns.

Believe it or not, I have spent a good portion of my afternoon addressing some of the things that GH offered in his post to me, only to find that upon completion more of it was gone as you can see above. So if its ok I will start from my beginnng with that post. Possibly this will also address some of the thing§ that Nelg has given me to chew on also.

I thank you both for your time.

Btw....I am on this silly little tablet..I can not post from another post. (Im sure many could but I am just too computer illiterateto figure it out

We have a all knowing, all-powerful, sovereign God. His mercy and grace is never ending. Nothing can or will thwart His divine plan. I love Him and want only to be pleasing in His eyes.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve had the ability to Sin or not to sin. God gave them that freedomI would suppost that they were able to decide by their strongest desires, motivation or inclination.

After the fall, man was still able to sin but his ablilty to not sin was lost. This moral inability or moral bondage can only be overcome by a spiritual rebirth. Rebirth liberate us from original sin. Before rebirth we still have a freewill but we do not have a liberation from the power of sin. In other words-after our rebirth wre still have to ablity to sin but we have also regained our ablity through the power of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be able Not to Sin...We truely have been set free. We still sin but we can never say again that we sin because that is all our fallen natures have the power to do.

GH, I agree with you that we as sinners have the ability to make chiocesut we lack the moral ability to make godly choices.

Jesus tell us or teaches us in (John 6:65) that man is powerlessto come to Hime without divine aid.

Therefore I have siad to you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to hime by the Father.

He is speaking to everyone/universal.

The words NO ONE- means every body, no exceptions. But be have to also look at the word CAN. The can word has to do with our ablity, not permission. Jesus is not say no one is allowed to come to me......He is saying, no one is able to come to me....Then we have to look at the word UNLESS. We all know that means a neccessary condition and that mean something must happen before something else happens. I think the meaning of Jesus words are pretty clear here. No human bneigh can possibly come to Christ unless unless something happens that makes it possible to come and that nesccesary condition that Jesus devclares is that IT Has been Granted to Him by the Father. I believe that Jesus is telling usthat our ability yto come to Him is a gift from God..Man does not have the ability in and of himself to come to Christ. God must fo something 1st. So I guess the question here is : Does God give this ability to all men?

Regardless of the answer of yes or no, we sdtill want to know Just how far does God to go to overcome our natural inablity to come to Christ?

Whwn we look back at chapter 6 of Johns gospel, Jesus make a similar statement. He says:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him(John 6:44).

Now you know we just have to look at that word DRAWS. What does that mean? Its so hard to understand if we dont know the true meaning of a word

Btw, I have heard several Minister/Preachers at their closing invitation use the word woo.Im sure you probably have too. They tell us that we can resist this wooing or we can resist this wooing on our own accord or we can make that choice to rceive Jesus right now because He is there knocking and wants us to let Him come into our hearts today right now...Just open the door....But WOO is not the word that Jesus is using here. He uses the word DRAW. The Greek word here is elko. Kittels Theological dictionary of the NT defines it to mean: To compel by irresistible superiority. I think to compel is a much more foreful concept that than the word woo! Dont you? .Our understanding of word and true meanings are vital to the understanding of scripture. I just cant stress that enough..and no, I have no iota about Greek or any other language. I just happen to stumble on true meanings when I dig. Most of the time, I do not.

With this word draw in mind and itd true meaning (irresitible superiority) I just Hve to think that Jesus is speaking of a Inward Call. A call that can only come from God..Nelg, was gracious enough in his post to explain the outward call. Thru the preaching of the gosspel, the hearing, sharing and of course reading Gods word. I can tell you about the gospel of our Lord Jesus, I can plant that seed. But I cant reach down in your heart plant it in ya.. No Jesus is speaking of something entirely different here. A inward calling that is coming from our LORD God almighty, himself..So wonderful.

So what am I to think of this..

Do I still try to use my own natural ablity, my own esteem, my own determination. I dont have any moral ablity so I can use that!

Ive only used a couple of the teachings of Jesus. There are so many more..and of course we cant forget Paul. He teaches over and over and over againthat we can not make a choice to pick God.

He tells us we are spirituall dead. We are just dying on our death bed where we may choose to take some medicine to make us stay aliveand make us well. He says we are dead. The spiritually dead can do nothing on their own accord.

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GH and Nelg, I appreciate both of you addressing my concerns.

Believe it or not, I have spent a good portion of my afternoon addressing some of the things that GH offered in his post to me, only to find that upon completion more of it was gone as you can see above. So if its ok I will start from my beginnng with that post. Possibly this will also address some of the thing§ that Nelg has given me to chew on also.

I thank you both for your time.

Btw....I am on this silly little tablet..I can not post from another post. (Im sure many could but I am just too computer illiterateto figure it out

We have a all knowing, all-powerful, sovereign God. His mercy and grace is never ending. Nothing can or will thwart His divine plan. I love Him and want only to be pleasing in His eyes.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve had the ability to Sin or not to sin. God gave them that freedomI would suppost that they were able to decide by their strongest desires, motivation or inclination.

After the fall, man was still able to sin but his ablilty to not sin was lost. This moral inability or moral bondage can only be overcome by a spiritual rebirth. Rebirth liberate us from original sin. Before rebirth we still have a freewill but we do not have a liberation from the power of sin. In other words-after our rebirth wre still have to ablity to sin but we have also regained our ablity through the power of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be able Not to Sin...We truely have been set free. We still sin but we can never say again that we sin because that is all our fallen natures have the power to do.

GH, I agree with you that we as sinners have the ability to make chiocesut we lack the moral ability to make godly choices.

Jesus tell us or teaches us in (John 6:65) that man is powerlessto come to Hime without divine aid.

Therefore I have siad to you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to hime by the Father.

He is speaking to everyone/universal.

The words NO ONE- means every body, no exceptions. But be have to also look at the word CAN. The can word has to do with our ablity, not permission. Jesus is not say no one is allowed to come to me......He is saying, no one is able to come to me....Then we have to look at the word UNLESS. We all know that means a neccessary condition and that mean something must happen before something else happens. I think the meaning of Jesus words are pretty clear here. No human bneigh can possibly come to Christ unless unless something happens that makes it possible to come and that nesccesary condition that Jesus devclares is that IT Has been Granted to Him by the Father. I believe that Jesus is telling usthat our ability yto come to Him is a gift from God..Man does not have the ability in and of himself to come to Christ. God must fo something 1st. So I guess the question here is : Does God give this ability to all men? 

Regardless of the answer of yes or no, we sdtill want to know Just how far does God to go to overcome our natural inablity to come to Christ?

Whwn we look back at chapter 6 of Johns gospel, Jesus make a similar statement. He says:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him(John 6:44).

Now you know we just have to look at that word DRAWS. What does that mean? Its so hard to understand if we dont know the true meaning of a word

Btw, I have heard several Minister/Preachers at their closing invitation use the word woo.Im sure you probably have too. They tell us that we can resist this wooing or we can resist this wooing on our own accord or we can make that choice to rceive Jesus right now because He is there knocking and wants us to let Him come into our hearts today right now...Just open the door....But WOO is not the word that Jesus is using here. He uses the word DRAW. The Greek word here is elko. Kittels Theological dictionary of the NT defines it to mean: To compel by irresistible superiority. I think to compel is a much more foreful concept that than the word woo! Dont you? .Our understanding of word and true meanings are vital to the understanding of scripture. I just cant stress that enough..and no, I have no iota about Greek or any other language. I just happen to stumble on true meanings when I dig. Most of the time, I do not.

Good point, and i like the way you reason.  And I believe you are correct, for it was Jesus who said  that no one can come to Him, unless it has been granted him from the Father.  Now read carefully what Jesus did say and it will help to find the answer of HOW God grants us to know Him.  "For this reason I have said to you, . . ."  "have said" is past tense, so when did He say that?  God back to vss. 44-45 and read what Jesus said there, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." It is parallel to vs 65.  God draws a person to Jesus, but how does He do that.  Vs. 45 gives the How.  "It is written in the prophets, AND THEY SALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.  Every one who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."   Jesus gives us the way God draws us, through hearing and learning of Jesus.  In this case the disciples were listening to the teaching of Jesus.  As yet, the Spirit had not been given (Jno 7:39).  

I like what you said about the word "draw" (helkuo), and it is helpful to look at how it is used in other passages.  

Jno 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 

Jno 18:10 "Simon Peter therefore having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave and cut off his right ear, and the slave's name was Malchus."

Jno 21:6 "And He said to them, Cast the net on the rigt hand side of the boat, and you will find a catch.  They cast therefore, and then they were not able to haul (helkuo) it in because of the great number of fish."

Jno 21:11 "Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn."

Acts 16:19 "But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, tey seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities. . . "

In all these passages the idea being conveyed that the object being "drawn" were being acted upon.  The verb is an aorist passive, third person, singular.  These passages would support your position.  However, as you indicated, we are just "seed" planters.  The place where the seed of the gospel is planted is within "good soil" or "good hearts." The parable of the Sower is given and interpreted by Jesus in Matthew 13.  There is is said that the "seed" is "the word of the kingdom" or as Luke states that the "seed is the word of God" (Lk 8:11).  Of course, that is the area which the teacher of the gospel wants to reach, the heart.  It is there that the Spirit takes the word and changes the heart.  After all, the word of God is the sword of the Spirit (Eph 6:17).  The Spirit takes the word of God and pricks the heart of the one hearing the message.  The Spirit may still do things that spur us to consider the gospel, but it is pure supposition as to what He does.  We know it, but we can't prove it because it is spiritually discerned.  The result is that the individual will either obey the gospel or be disobedient  to Christ.  

 

 

 

With this word draw in mind and itd true meaning (irresitible superiority) I just Hve to think that Jesus is speaking of a Inward Call. A call that can only come from God..Nelg, was gracious enough in his post to explain the outward call. Thru the preaching of the gosspel, the hearing, sharing and of course reading Gods word. I can tell you about the gospel of our Lord Jesus, I can plant that seed. But I cant reach down in your heart plant it in ya.. No Jesus is speaking of something entirely different here. A inward calling that is coming from our LORD God almighty, himself..So wonderful.

Correct again.  But we would differ in this one point.  The seed must be planted into the heart.  It is the preaching/teaching of the word that places the gospel into the heart.  It is up to the Spirit to do His work in stimulating the response of the hearer to either believe or into rejection.  

So what am I to think of this..

Do I still try to use my own natural ablity, my own esteem, my own determination. I dont have any moral ablity so I can use that!

Ive only used a couple of the teachings of Jesus. There are so many more..and of course we cant forget Paul. He teaches over and over and over againthat we can not make a choice to pick God.  ??

He tells us we are spirituall dead. We are just dying on our death bed where we may choose to take some medicine to make us stay aliveand make us well. He says we are dead. The spiritually dead can do nothing on their own accord.  

How the Spirit motivates the unbeliever to belief by using the word is difficult to determine.  That may remain hidden to us, but the unbeliever is required to believe, repent, and to be baptized before the Spirit comes to indwell (Acts 2:37-41).  There are requirement for the person to become a Christian.  

 

 

Wow, nearly wen to sleep at the computer.  Got to go to bed.  Glorify Jesus in your life.  

Good evening.  

Nelg.

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Barb, I think you have illustrated the classic dilemma between the concept of Total Depravity and the Great Commission.  If Total Depravity means that man is so spiritually dead that he is unable to know God, understand God or respond to God why then the Gospel? Why send preachers out to the entire world? If the core of Reformed Theology is that Gods sovereignty allows or even directs Him to pre-choose those whom He would regenerate to be able to respond to the Gospel why then are the scriptures not explicit in revealing it?

 

And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Why go into all the world and preach to all creation if only a portion have been granted the ability to receive the Gospel?

 

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.  Acts 20:21

How is it spiritually dead Jews and Greeks must do something if they are incapable of doing it?

 

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:36

How can the spiritually dead reject the Son if they are incapable of knowing the Son?  Putting the logical contradiction aside did God elect those whom would receive His wrath?  If he did, is not all of mankind then a type of puppet pre-chosen to reject Him or accept Him, hate Him or love Him?

 

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the scripture to read: Whoever God chose to believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever God chose not to believe stands condemned already because God ordained them not to believe in the name of God’s one and only Son.  Nah… I didn’t think so.

 

For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

Barb, you stated, “God must do something first.”

 

He did:   

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.  John 1:1-18

GH

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Good morning GH.  Great posts!  

This is only a minor thing involving the translation of Jno 3:36.  It is interesting that John uses apeitheo (disobey) here as the antithesis to pisteuo (believe).  The translations vary in their use "believeth not" (KJV), "rejects the Son" (NIV), "does not believe" (NKJV), "does not obey" (RSV), "does not obey" (NASV), but the weight of evidence falls to the "does not obey." 

I understand that it really makes very little difference to the statement, but it does indicate that "faith" and "obey" go hand-in-hand.  One cannot believe unless the individual is willing to obey.  In other words "faith" is not totally intellectual.  

Have any insight?  

 

Athim, you might want to comment as well.  

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Wow, it looks like I am always a day late and a key board stroke behind! But I'm loving it...

Nelg, I have thought about your post from last night all morning. You have indeed arose to the occasion. I've got a couple of things to take care before I can get back to ya. Hope for your patience.

GH, Nelg is absolute right. Your post is great. You have some pretty demanding and point blank question ther but as I skimmed thru some of my answer popped into my head. There are several that I will struggle with.

Please bbare in mind, I'm not here to prove anything. Not here to sway one. Thats why at the srart of this thread that I'm not a true Calvinist (not to the core atleast). I do believe we as sinners are totally deprave and we cannot help ourselves. As far as being in the TULIP family, I don't think I am...btw......I think RC Sproul wants to change tulip to RULIP. I will share that with youu latter.

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Good evening Barb,

 

 

It does seem that most of us are in agreement, but I think that it just “seems” that we agree.  I think once we get into the discussion there will be more who hold the Reformed view than are posting at the present.  I will say that I attended a Reformed Theological Seminary for one of my degrees and enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

I will try to explain my understanding of predestination and what I meant by citing the passages. 

First, predestination is not an individual “pre-determining” of what an individual will or will not do. In other words I don’t think God has a book for each person with a blueprint of all that the person will do or say, as well as determining the choices that person will make.  

 

What is predestined is the Plan and Will of God to save mankind from sin and death.  That “will” or “plan” was totally mapped out before the foundation of the world.  That would mean that it was established in the mind of God before mankind came into existence.  That plan was based on the foreknowledge of what man (Adam and Eve) would do: sin.  Because of the propensity of humans to naturally follow their desires of what they see, they feel, and the power they crave, they would sin by misuse and abuse of the gifts God had given to them.  Thus, mankind would be by nature, children of wrath (Eph 2:1-3).  God, knowing that man would sin and bring in physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death devised a plan to redeem mankind and destroy the power of all three deaths.  That plan was for God to come in the flesh to do what man could not do on his own.  So from the beginning or entrance of sin into the world, God worked His plan through Abraham’s seed to bring this blessing to all mankind (Gen 12:1-3).  God in His foreknowledge carried out the predetermined plan by working through Israel, Judah, and certain individuals from the Gentiles to make sure that everything was accomplished. Of course that is the scarlet thread that runs through the entire OT.  He used Jacob and Esau and their particular foibles to accomplish the task (Rom 9:6-19).  God “elected” those who were to carry out His will and He made sure that His predetermined plan was carried out to completion. 

 

Once Christ came “in the fullness of time” and died on the cross, bore all the sins of mankind and suffered the wrath of God for us, and was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father, the predestinated plan was near completion.  Jesus presented His blood before God and poured forth the Holy Spirit to indwell the heart of the believer the predetermined plan was completed.  Individuals now have a way to reconcile and fellowship with God. Here is the determination of those who are elect – those who have faith and obey Christ Jesus are now “in Him” and are the elect.  (The Scripture references were not included.  They will be provided if necessary, but this story is generally known I saw no reason to include them.  I know, that’s a big assumption on my part.)

 

The definition you gave is the Reform view of election, but I do not believe it reflects the biblical definition of election.  The subtle difference is that the Reform view is in reverse. 

Of all passages of Scripture touching the matter of election, Ephesians 1:3-14 is the foundation passage. In this doxology, as in certain other Scriptures, an essential aspect of election is explicit: the election is Christ centric.  The first step toward a correct understanding of the Biblical doctrine of election is the recognition that the election of individuals is comprehended only “in Christ;” outside of Christ there is no election of any individual.  Now what does that mean?  God did not choose a person because He knew they would believe, but God chooses a person because they DID believe!  “God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4).  Thus the gospel message of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is proclaimed.  A person listens to the gospel, believes and obeys the gospel and is placed “In Christ.”  Those “in Christ” are the elect and chosen of God.

 

The coming of Jesus into this world was for the purpose of dying and shedding His blood for “all” humanity.  The atonement is a holy fact of many facets, but I’m not going to go into all those things in this short post.  The NT concept of atonement is that it involves ransom, redemption, and propitiation – all concerned primarily with God and His holiness rather than with man.  It is for mankind, but it looks toward God and the vindication of His holiness, that He might be “just and the justifier” of those that believe in Jesus (Rm 3:26). The propitiation brought about by Christ is toward God, for man. It was offered to satisfy God for the sake of God Himself, but more especially to satisfy the necessities of His moral economy and the kingdom He purposed from eternity and to provide the only circumstance in which and individual, having sinned, could become part of the kingdom of God. 

An integral part of the Reform or Calvinistic system of theology is the doctrine of limited atonement, which means that Christ’s atonement was only for those “elected” for salvation. In a way that is true.  Salvation through the atonement is only for those “in Christ.”  But it does not limit the recipients as only those whom God has “chosen” while those He has not “chosen” must remain as lost, whether they desire to be saved or not. 

 

 

However, I believe the fault in this theology, that only the elect are predestined to be saved, falls under the weight of biblical passages that indicate that the atonement and salvation is for everyone, and that it is their choosing of Christ (belief) that determines their destiny.

 

For example:

     “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself (2Co 5:19).

     “God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1Tim 2:4-6).

     “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jno 1:29. 

     “For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men” (Titus 2:11)

There are many more which indicate that the grace extended was a universal grace.  It was unlimited.  To this even the Reform and Calvinist would agree.

But what is provided by the atonement to “all men” or “the world” benefits only those who “receive it.” The Gospel of John is a catalogue of passages that underscore the responsibility and choice that the hearer must make.  Passages like John 1:11; 3:16-21; 6:33, 35, 51 or Mark 16:15-16 or 1Tim 4:10 all indicate that “faith” is the element the hearer must choose if they are to be saved. 

 

 

In other words, our redemption depends on God’s decision and our decision.  His decision was that those in Christ are the elect.  My entrance into Christ is by faith and obedience to Him (Jno 3:36; Rom 5:1; Gal 3:22-29).

Some will, I am sure, declare that that would destroy the sovereignty of God.  But does it? Not in the least.  It was His sovereign plan that predetermined that the elect/chosen will be those in Christ or those who believe in Christ.  The sovereignty of God does not need to be established.  The sovereignty does not depend, for either its existence or its manifestation, on either the fact or the mode of election.  God is sovereign, regardless of whether He elects, or does not elect, whether He elects some are all, whether election is conditional, or unconditional.  Faith and obedience is (not “are”) the response to the message of the gospel. 

 

 

Just one more point to consider, The passages positing foreknowledge (1Pt 1:2; Rom 8:28-30; 11:2) and predestination (Ep 1:3-14) obviously comprehend individuals, but only within the context of the coalot.rporate election of those “in Christ” or the church, or the Israel of God (Gal 6:14-16).

 

The Gospel commission given by our Lord to His disciples is to “all nations . . .all the world . . . every creature.”  The gospel call is as broad as the command to repent --  to “all men everywhere” (Acts 17:30). 

Now, I don’t know if mudded the water or let the stream run clear, but these are quick ramblings. 

 

 

Mo mudding the water here and after reading your post. I must admit that mu terminology and use of words seems somewhat out of order.  No not some what but a lot.  I'm reaching  deep here to understand so any correction is appreciated.  

 

Your explanation or definition here seems to hit the nail right on the head.  but this definition would make any man a reason to run away from this reformed theology.  

Most people that see that predestine  word in front of them tend to think only one thing.....OH No, If I believe that then that makes me no more than a puppet.  No more than a robot or an android as you so delicately put in one of your previous post.  Am I offended by that..Absolutely not!  This is a cruel and debasing thought for any of us to have to look at..Besides,  how can a God of love, A God that is just choose some for His paradise and another to suffer and spend eternity in a hell, absent from Himself and a torment that is too unbearable for us to think about.  Even I have problems with this.   But I do know that before He took me as His own, thats exactly what I deserve.  Even now looking back over my life(cringe) a friendly reminder is always there to shame me and fall to my knees and praise Him for His mercy.

 

Nelg I don't know the answer to these things but I do know as a human I was totally depraved.  There truely was no life in me.  Without the precious blood of our Lord Jesus and His loving Holy Spirit I wouldn't be here typing on this subject today.

 

But I'm not God, I can not Create, produce or make anything out of nothing.  He is the Creator, I am His creature and I truely do not know if God picks, chooses certain individuals and leaves the rest but this concept is not what bares so much on my mind but what His words say to my heart and all the scripture that leads me to believe that this is so...starting in the OT, running all the way in to the NT.

 

btw...If He did indeed choose me, or made me His elect from the being then thats  ok..If He did reduce me to a robot or an andriod or a puppet at this point , then so be i.   

 

As Athim posted earlier-------God will save whom He will.  Save and have mercy upon those He will have mercy upon.   He is the Potter, I just praise Him for letting me be His clay.

 

 

Here is the focal point of the reformed doctrine of predestination rest on the bibical teachings of man's spiritual death..Briefly,   natural man does not want Christ.  He may want the benefits of Christ (heaven instaed of hell but he will never seek and search unless God plants that desire in him.  Yes that outward call.    I think most non- reformed view on  that predestination fail to take seriously the fact that fallen man is spirititiualy dead.   Other evangelical positions acknowledge that man is fallen and his falleness is great is a serious matter.  They even grant that sin is a radical problem.  Most even grant that man is not merely ill but mortally ill, sick unto death.  But most would stop there and say man is not quite dead yet.  He has just enough life in his body,maybe one tiny breath of spiritually life left that he is able to reach out and and grab hold to save himself....In this way  God is doing about 99%  of what is necessary to save man but man still has to come with that 1%.  Of course this analogy almost does justice to the Bible and Paul's teaching of grace of regeration  but not quite, The Bible does not  speak of mortally ill sinners.  According to Paul, they are dead.  If I'm to take God word literally and I do.  Paul is saying that there is not 1 ounce of spiritual life left in him.  I would conclude that this is where we don't see things eye to eye.  This is where our words rebirth, regenerate,irresistible grace, prevenient grace all come together but gets turned upside down.

It wouldn't be right for me to tell you that I understand all of it and all I can share is what seems right to me and I see scripture saying to me.

 

I will start with the word  regeneration.  We know that this word has to do with new life.  It can be called new birth or being born again.  Lots of confusion exists about this matter.  The new birth is closely linked in the Bible to th new life that is ours in Jesus.  Just as in natural biology there can be no life without birth so as is in our supernatural terms there can be no new life without new birth.  Rebirth  produces new life .  It is the beginnng of a new life but not the total sum of new life. but it is the crucial point of transition from spiritual death to spiritual death.  Of course a person is never partially born again.  He is either regenerated or he is not.  The Bible clearly teaches that regeneration is that it is the work of God and not of ourselves.  The work of God alone.  In fact, regeneration is an act of creation.  God is the one that creates.    When God regenerates a human soul, when He makes that soul, when he makes us spiritually alive, we make choices.  We believe We have faith. We cling to Christ.  God doesn't believe for us.  In regeneration, God changes our hearts.  He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination, new desire.  He plant a desire for Christ in our lives.  That is why I believe that regeneration precedes faith.  When God regenerates us, it is a act of His Grace.

 

When we look at Ephesians 2 " But God, who is rich in His mercy, because of His great love with which He has loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive....."

What is Paul saying here?    "But God , who is rich in goodness."  Its God alone who makes us alive.  and when does He do it?  Paul doesn't leave us guessing on this one.  He says ,

"......when we are dead in our trespasses."  Wow, this is amazing to me.  How could a Holy God be so generous and so full of grace to give a sinner like me such a indescirible  gift!

Then Paul says,  " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves, It is the gift of God."   Oh my, that sorta seals it for me.

 

Then we come to irresistible grace........

Most christians agree that God's work of regeneration is a work of grace.  I guess the issue that probably divides us is whether is grace is irresistible or not.  Is it possible for one to receive the grace of regeneration and still not come faith?  RC Sproul explains it this way:     The term irresistible grace can be misleading.  Calvinist all believe that man can and do resist the grace of God.  God's grace is resistible in the sense that we can and do resist it.  It is irresisible in the sense that it achieves its purpose.  It brings about God's desired effects.  So RC prefers to use the word effectual.

 

I have been all over the page here and I apologize so I must close.  My husband will be home shortly so in closing I will just say, Every soull whose heart beats with the life of God within it longs for our Precious Jesus.

"All whom the Father gives to Christ comes to Christ. (John 6:37)

 

barb  

 

GH,  I can't get back to ya untill to night after dinner,  but my plans are on coming back.

barb

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A beautiful heartfelt post Barb, thanks for sharing.

 

Please don't fret about how quickly you must respond this evening, enjoy time with your husband.

 

I have two grandkids coming over tonight to spend the weekend with me and my wife and, depending on how much energy they have I may have to 'elect' them to assist with the yard work. :)

 

GH

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GH,  its 11 pm  here in Tn and I just don't think I have it in me to post tonight.  Please forgive me as I had told you I would be back.

 

I just saw your post and appreciate you giving me the time off.  I'm just happy that you have that ability to be able to "choose" to spend your time with them..lol

 

Enjoy your time with the grand babies.

 

thank you 

barb

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Barb, I think you have illustrated the classic dilemma between the concept of Total Depravity and the Great Commission.  If Total Depravity means that man is so spiritually dead that he is unable to know God, understand God or respond to God why then the Gospel? Why send preachers out to the entire world? If the core of Reformed Theology is that Gods sovereignty allows or even directs Him to pre-choose those whom He would regenerate to be able to respond to the Gospel why then are the scriptures not explicit in revealing it?

 

And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Why go into all the world and preach to all creation if only a portion have been granted the ability to receive the Gospel?

 

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.  Acts 20:21

How is it spiritually dead Jews and Greeks must do something if they are incapable of doing it?

 

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:36

How can the spiritually dead reject the Son if they are incapable of knowing the Son?  Putting the logical contradiction aside did God elect those whom would receive His wrath?  If he did, is not all of mankind then a type of puppet pre-chosen to reject Him or accept Him, hate Him or love Him?

 

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the scripture to read: Whoever God chose to believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever God chose not to believe stands condemned already because God ordained them not to believe in the name of God’s one and only Son.  Nah… I didn’t think so.

 

For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

Barb, you stated, “God must do something first.”

 

He did:   

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.  John 1:1-18

GH

 

Hello GH,  I was hoping if I put this off long enough that these questions would disappear...but they have not!

When one becomes a Christian, I think it only natural that they search and seek the doctrine that they have been indoctrinated with.  We do double takes of certain word and passages that confirms what we are been taught.  

 

I believe just as you, GH.  I would not be reluctant to say that there are only a couple of things that we don,t see eye to eye on.  1.  Total depravity....Yes I believe my sin runs so deep that I can not help myself.  I am spiritually dead and I need the work of God's Holy spirit to raise me from this spiritual death that I may come to know Jesus...this lead to our 2nd difference.....Regeneration, the changing of ones heart, a quickening so to say.  Quickening means new life.  When a child is in its mothers womb, the 1st time that more fells the baby kick or move is called quickening.

 

More things may come up as we move along but this is what I see right now.

 

Ihave to comment on what you think is core of the reformed theology.  I do not think the word predestination or Gods choice is the core....The core  for me and most others< I believe is just what we spoke about above.  If God chooses then so be it.  Not a thing I can do about it..If your right and I'm wrong and it is all from free will, then so be, there is not a thing I can do about!

 

but this is not answers to your questions is it.  I feel your question in your opening is the same question in question 1.  so I will start below

 

 

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As you can see that didn't work for me. So I will answer your questions in the order that you posted them but I will not be post your question...Sorry for your inconvenience..

 

1a.   (Matthew 28: 16-20)..The Great commission----We are to preach the gospel that all may hear.  We must surrender to the Authority of Jesus and what he has commissioned to us by His Holy Authority.  He has equipped us with His power and His strength.  We are to be obedient and faithful to His calling..(outward call) .  Our work begins when we come His.  Usually when we have found what we have been seeking or looking for our search ends  (its over).  This is not so with our new found birth..Our search, seeking and walk with the Lord has only begun.

 

b.   We as mere man do not know who God has chosen.  The outward call is the means to reach all that our Lord has called unto Himself.

(Romans 1: 16-17)  "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes for the Jew first and also the Greek.(v.17)For in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith".

Here we go, we have just got to look at that word POWER,  this is the life changing impact of the gospel Word through the Holy Spirit because of human bondage to sin.

 

 

2.  Apparently I am missing the point of your question here.  I am not seeing or finding anything that Paul is saying they have to do something...He preached the same gospel to Greek and Jew alike.  We all receive Christ in the same manner, which is the work, death and resurrection of our precious Lord Jesus Christ .  Paul is basically given a report to the Elders here of the work of his ministry to "all"  ,that he had been called to do.  We must all come to repentance of our sin and faith in Jesus.

Salvation is unmerited but it is not universally enjoyed.

 

I guess I am some what confused with your question...Whats the right answer? :shrug: 

 

 

Barb, I think you have illustrated the classic dilemma between the concept of Total Depravity and the Great Commission.  If Total Depravity means that man is so spiritually dead that he is unable to know God, understand God or respond to God why then the Gospel? Why send preachers out to the entire world? If the core of Reformed Theology is that Gods sovereignty allows or even directs Him to pre-choose those whom He would regenerate to be able to respond to the Gospel why then are the scriptures not explicit in revealing it?

 

And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Why go into all the world and preach to all creation if only a portion have been granted the ability to receive the Gospel?

 

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.  Acts 20:21

How is it spiritually dead Jews and Greeks must do something if they are incapable of doing it?

 

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:36

How can the spiritually dead reject the Son if they are incapable of knowing the Son?  Putting the logical contradiction aside did God elect those whom would receive His wrath?  If he did, is not all of mankind then a type of puppet pre-chosen to reject Him or accept Him, hate Him or love Him?

 

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the scripture to read: Whoever God chose to believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever God chose not to believe stands condemned already because God ordained them not to believe in the name of God’s one and only Son.  Nah… I didn’t think so.

 

For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

Barb, you stated, “God must do something first.”

 

He did:   

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.  John 1:1-18

GH

 

Hello GH,  I was hoping if I put this off long enough that these questions would disappear...but they have not!

When one becomes a Christian, I think it only natural that they search and seek the doctrine that they have been indoctrinated with.  We do double takes of certain word and passages that confirms what we are been taught.  

 

I believe just as you, GH.  I would not be reluctant to say that there are only a couple of things that we don,t see eye to eye on.  1.  Total depravity....Yes I believe my sin runs so deep that I can not help myself.  I am spiritually dead and I need the work of God's Holy spirit to raise me from this spiritual death that I may come to know Jesus...this lead to our 2nd difference.....Regeneration, the changing of ones heart, a quickening so to say.  Quickening means new life.  When a child is in its mothers womb, the 1st time that more fells the baby kick or move is called quickening.

 

More things may come up as we move along but this is what I see right now.

 

Ihave to comment on what you think is core of the reformed theology.  I do not think the word predestination or Gods choice is the core....The core  for me and most others< I believe is just what we spoke about above.  If God chooses then so be it.  Not a thing I can do about it..If your right and I'm wrong and it is all from free will, then so be, there is not a thing I can do about!

 

but this is not answers to your questions is it.  I feel your question in your opening is the same question in question 1.  so I will start below

 

 

 

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our mothers womb.  but we still lack the moral ability.  Man cannot and will not come to Christ with out regeneration or the work of God's Holy Spirit.  He alone gives us the gift of faith.  Its almost like we have a dependence-responsibility.  We have a dependence on God but we become responsible to ourselves at that time.  The cure for spiritual death is the creation of spiritual life in our souls

 

b.     Oh my GH..You have ask some thing I really don't know about and have not looked into...But it is reasonable to think that if God chooses some then He must reject all the others.  Sorry GH  I truly would rather stay a way from this one..

 

c.   I do not think at all that we are puppets. God and His Holy Spirit have given us the right to choose and reject him in His regeneration of our hearts.  When this occurs we have the moral ability and freedom to choose or rejest our life with Christ, until then we are spiritually dead.

 

For the sake of time, I will not quote scripture here but if you will jump over to (Romans 9:14-21) this clear this myth right on up for ya!   If you have taken the time to read this passage you will see this is an act of judgement resulting in God's display of power.

(v.19) It is unreasonable for anyone to question the righteous s of God's ways.  Remember Job?  Potters have the right to do anything they wish with there clay..The difference in our clay and God's clay is that God created that clay out of nothing.  It is God almighty created..Our clay was made from elements that God himself created.  I don't feel like His puppet but if thats what it takes  to make me His,  then here I am oh Lord.

I am His creature,  His sovereignty has power over my will, simply put:  He would not be God if there was one tiny molecule that could overcome His mighty and powerful sovereignty.

 

4.   GH I did not write Scripture.  A Holy God whom we have we can not even comprehend His Holiness did.  I don't even have the right to ask God why he did ths or why He did that.  All I can do is fall humbly before Him and praise Him in adoration.  I do not have an answer for you and I will not question God on this as I'm sure I would not understand any way.

but yes, if it did read as you put it, it would confirm the reformed view of predestination and you and I would not be at odds with one another.   BUT.....This is not ewhat he wrote.

 

5a.   this has been answered.  see above

 

b.     Explicit scripture...(John 3:3)  Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly I say. unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God".  or from above.

1 Peter 1:22-23

Ephesians 1:3-12 and most that I have share in your Q/A above

In my Bible I have a piece on regeneration: the New Birth that I will share a a later dater date.....Also one on Election and Reprobation that i will share in another post....Yes, my Bible is a reformed theology, NKJ version.

 

6.  Yes this our Lord Jesus Christ showing and making our Holy God know...Reveals

 

 

Closing,  Gh, You have certainly made me dig here.  I don't know that my answered  in a way that has helped or what you were looking for.  As I said earlier, I believe as you except for a few things.  depravity/regeneration probably effectual grace.  I'm still searching.  I want all of God and what He is telling me..If I am in err, I know the Lord will bring the right person to show me better of His truths.

Just remember, Jesus did it all...not 99% and me 1%.  If I had to to help Him then my only option would be hell.

Thank you,  hope the you enjoyed the grandbabies last night.

 

barb

 

 

5b.

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