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Government shuts down after Congress fails to pass spending bill


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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/10/01/government-shutdown-congress/2899657/

It's about time they shut that goon down

Now everyone knows who controls the purse string its not Harry Reid and obama



WASHINGTON —The federal government shut down for the first time in nearly two decades following more than a week of legislative jockeying by House Republicans to extract concessions from President Obama and Senate Democrats on the Affordable Care Act.

Shortly before midnight, Obama notified government agencies to prepare to cease operations Tuesday, even as House Republicans worked on a fourth and final attempt to again advance a plan to delay the individual mandate to buy health insurance exchanges that open for enrollment Tuesday.

The House Republicans' moves came as a series of polls released Monday showed that they were bearing the bulk of the blame for the shutdown. One of their Senate colleagues, Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the party's 2008 presidential nominee, called their position doomed to eventual failure.

Republicans were also seeking a motion to start formal negotiations, called a conference committee, with the Senate on the stopgap spending measure — an unusual request for a six-week spending bill that funds the government at current levels, but it provides Republicans a vehicle to keep the debate going. It was quickly rejected by Senate Democrats.

"We will not go to conference with a gun to our head," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said late Monday.
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Sen. Harry Reid says attempts to cut funding for the health care law are dead in the Senate.(Photo: J. Scott Applewhite, AP)

Reid and other Senate Democrats urged House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, to put a Senate-passed bill on the floor to keep the government funded through Nov. 15 and that did not include any provisions affecting the health care law. Boehner refused.

"That's not going to happen," he said.

The Senate voted twice Monday to reject House efforts to delay the individual mandate, repeal a 2.3% tax on medical devices enacted to help pay for the law, and a proposal to eliminate a proposed subsidy to members of Congress, their staffs, and members of the Obama administration to buy insurance in the new system.

Obama reiterated that he would not sign any bill that seeks to dismantle the law. "One faction of one party in one house of Congress in one branch of government doesn't get to shut down the entire government just to refight the results of an election," Obama said at the White House.

The president did sign late Monday a bill that would pay members of the military during a shutdown.

Reid maintained the only way to avoid a shutdown was to approve the Senate-passed stopgap spending bill with no provisions on "Obamacare."

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Speaker of the House John Boehner, R-Ohio.(Photo: J. Scott Applewhite, AP)

"They try to send us something back, they're spinning their wheels," Reid said.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Democrats would deliver most of their 200 votes if Boehner would agree to put the Senate bill on the floor. "I think it's very clear Democrats are making an explicit offer to the speaker to keep government open. Whatever he may bring out of his caucus to bring to the floor, we hope that he will also give a vote to the clean (funding bill)," Pelosi said.

The House provision on insurance subsidies was a reaction to an Office of Personnel Management decision to provide members of Congress and their staffs the same amount of money they get now as part of the federal employees insurance system to pay for policies they will now have to buy on local exchanges, which are state websites where people can shop for and buy insurance.

"There should be no special treatment for the well-connected under ObamaCare. Delaying the individual mandate and withdrawing special exemptions for Congress is the fair thing to do," House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Va., said in a statement.

Some of the health care law is already in place, including provisions that expand prescription-drug discounts and allow young people up to age 26 to remain on their parents' health insurance policies. Obama said Monday that those exchanges will open regardless of what Congress does.

1380587252000-AP-Obama-Budget-Battle-007
President Obama(Photo: Carolyn Kaster, AP)

"We're at an impasse that can only be resolved by Speaker Boehner going to his caucus and saying, 'Enough is enough,'" Rep. Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee and a former campaign committee chairman, said at a breakfast hosted Monday by The Christian Science Monitor.

The standoff has energized Tea Party organizations, which have made dismantling the health care law a top priority and have exercised substantial influence over House Republicans elected with their help since 2010.

"What's happening in Washington right now is largely a result of the grass roots speaking with one voice at the same time," said Dean Clancy, vice president of public policy for FreedomWorks, one of the leading Tea Party-affiliated groups. His group, which touts an e-mail list and social media following of more than 6 million, said it has driven more than 50,000 calls to Congress in recent weeks as part of the effort to defund the law.

"We are setting the agenda in Washington, and it feels good," he said.

Van Hollen said he's not sure when a shutdown will end. "I think the scary thing about this period we're in is that there's no clear end point to a shutdown," he said.
The last time the government shut down was in 1995-96 for a combined period of 28 days during budget standoffs between the Clinton administration and a Republican Congress. Most Americans would not feel the effects of a short-term shutdown because most essential government operations would continue, but a longer-term shutdown could negatively affect the economy and federal workers and inconvenience Americans in need of government services.

Contributing: David Jackson, Gregory Korte and Fredreka Schouten. Edited by Markinsa
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Quoting from the article:

one party in one house of Congress in one branch of government doesn't get to shut down the entire government just to refight the results of an election," Obama said at the White House.

 

What frickin election.... I don't recall getting to vote or electing ObamaCare into law!!! There is no way I could imagine anyone voting  yes to double insurance premiums, with half the care, run by the IRS, with bigger than ever profits for the insurance industry and still precluding 30% of the population from getting medical care....

Talk about insurance fraud of the  century!!!!

 

And very glad that TD and others in military will still get paid..... YES!!!!!!

Edited by Rayzur
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Shut-R-Down

It's mostly theatrics anyway.



this will cost us more money for the shut down than it would have cost to pass the budget

This is what happens when idiots are in control of our country

We can just print up another trillion if we need to.

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It's ironic that a lunatic operating under trillions in debt would have the audacity to threaten additional cost will be incurred if we don't do it my way.   If the USA credit rating is still good the fools that are still lending don't have enough sense to stop.  Shutting-R-Down is the best thing to happen to this out of control Frat-Party   

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It's ironic that a lunatic operating under trillions in debt would have the audacity to threaten additional cost will be incurred if we don't do it my way.   If the USA credit rating is still good the fools that are still lending don't have enough sense to stop.  Shutting-R-Down is the best thing to happen to this out of control Frat-Party   

Yep... shut-r-down.  A little pain and austerity here and there is what is necessary when costs are unsustainable.   It's called sacrifice.   I do it every day... like a lot of people.

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Quoting from the article:

one party in one house of Congress in one branch of government doesn't get to shut down the entire government just to refight the results of an election," Obama said at the White House.

 

What frickin election.... I don't recall getting to vote or electing ObamaCare into law!!! There is no way I could imagine anyone voting  yes to double insurance premiums, with half the care, run by the IRS, with bigger than ever profits for the insurance industry and still precluding 30% of the population from getting medical care....

Talk about insurance fraud of the  century!!!!

 

And very glad that TD and others in military will still get paid..... YES!!!!!!

 

Rayzur,

 

You and I generally see eye to eye, but in this case we are poles apart.

 

The election that returned President Obama to the Whitehouse had the ACA at its heart.  Republicans were against, Democrats were for.  The fact is that the President was re-elected (with quite a margin).  I suspect that if Romney had of won the election, the ACA may have been repealed.  (Would have been ironic considering the ACA (Obamacare) is much the same as Romneycare in Massachusetts but anyaway).

 

Whether people like it or not - the system of government is that people vote for representatives to, well, represent them in the halls of government.

The ACA is law.  It has been voted on, and passed.  And, whatsmore, it is going to go ahead whether the government shuts down or not.  Republicans have tried, I think 41 times, to get rid of the ACA.  They have failed every time.

 

A couple of other points on your post:

 

Can you point me to a link to wear the cost of insurance of insurance where double, because the information that I have does not compute with that.  To the extent that a lot of people will now be covered for a lot more (things like mental health care, pre-natal care etc) than they were not covered for previously on cheaper plans.  Add to that the decreased deductibles and other subsidies, and people will be covered for a lot more, for the same or less cost.

 

The ACA is not run by the IRS.

 

From the linky

4. The IRS is going to be "in charge" of "a huge national database" on health care that will include Americans’ "personal, intimate, most close-to-the-vest-secrets." Pants on Fire.

U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., May 15, 2013, in an interview on Fox News

The Internal Revenue Service does have a role to play as part of the health care law, but it’s not the role suggested here. If you buy insurance on the marketplace and you get a subsidy, officials will check tax records to make sure you qualify. That communication with the IRS happens via a data hub that’s also connected to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It’s important to note, though, that the hub isn’t a database. The IRS isn’t running it. And it doesn’t include "intimate" health data. The hub is for signing up for health insurance, not for storing medical records.

 

 

 

Sadly, yes, this will lead to increased profits for the insurance companies.  That could have been avoided under a single payer option, but the Republicans didn't want that and so the ACA is the result.  It's certainly not the best option, but at least it's a start and will allow people who were unable to get insurance before to now get coverage.

 

The part that baffles me the most, well, one of the parts that baffles me the most, is why the Republicans are against the ACA. 

It was their plan after all.

 

The part that ticks me off the most, is that we have Republicans (mainly TeaParty nutbags) who are prepared to cost the USA billions by forcing a government shutdown, but I have yet to see what their plan is for healthcare reform.  Maybe they are of the opinion that the healthcare system in the USA doesn't need reforming, but I think that they would be in the minority.

TeaParty nutbags like Cruz are prepared to spend hours talking about nothing, reading books by Dr Seuss, but are offering nothing as far as telling people what their plans are.

 

And yes I use the word nutbags deliberately.  The GOP is supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility, but anybody who is prepared to throw away billions of dollars cannot be considered fiscally conservative and deserves the nutbag title.

 

I suspect that the shutdown will not last long, but I fear that with the debt ceiling vote rapidly approaching, the nutbags will again be doing everything they can to use the debt ceiling as a political plaything.

 

I also suspect that there will be plenty of little red negs attached to this post, so I will add this:

 

The TeaParty is ruining the Republicans.  If Cruz is the Republican nominee for the next Presidential race he will be smashed by whoever the Democrats choose to run.  The TeaParty and their backers are dangerous to the United States and to the world.  If they decide to play political games with the debt ceiling, and in the worst case scenario, choose to let the USA default on it's debts.  The fallout could be substantial and felt world wide.

I miss the old Republicans.  I miss the party of fiscal responsibility.  I don't like the TeaParty trying to turn the Republican Party into something it was never meant to be.

 

Now, before anyone throws a neg - debate the points.  Prove to me that the TeaParty has the best interests of Americans at heart.  And prove to me that they are not destroying the USA.  Show me what their plans are for healthcare reform and prove to me that they are better than the ACA.  Better yet - email your TeaParty representatives and ask them what plans they have with regard to healthcare reform.  Ask them what they are offering that is so much better than the ACA that they are prepared to force the government to shutdown.  Ask them what they have brought to the negotiation table other than - "Get rid of Obamacare".

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My husband makes less than 60k each year. We just got our first full paycheck after seaquestration and now no check at all. I dispise that either party can do this to us and yet they still get their paychecks. No one should have that power.

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Harry Reid is garbage he should put a gun to his own head

He claims he's got a gun to his head since he doesn't get his way or the highway

Obama is the same way it's his way or the high way

Obama shut down the govt by not compromising

Problem is Obama wont give in he doesn't care he won't budge for the next 3 years

Obama doesn't care that people will suffer he will just play his usual blame game

Obama should be removed from office

Obama does not controll the entire govt

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Time to close down the Senate and Congress.  We have paid their salary long enough without them even coming close to doing their job. Now the government shuts down voting people lose their paychecks.... Time to wake up America and vote these non producing,deadweight,incompetent fools out!! Hope all that voted for Reid and O are happy with their choice and with the outcome!

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Rayzur, You and I generally see eye to eye, but in this case we are poles apart. The election that returned President Obama to the Whitehouse had the ACA at its heart. Republicans were against, Democrats were for. The fact is that the President was re-elected (with quite a margin). I suspect that if Romney had of won the election, the ACA may have been repealed. (Would have been ironic considering the ACA (Obamacare) is much the same as Romneycare in Massachusetts but anyaway). Whether people like it or not - the system of government is that people vote for representatives to, well, represent them in the halls of government.The ACA is law. It has been voted on, and passed. And, whatsmore, it is going to go ahead whether the government shuts down or not. Republicans have tried, I think 41 times, to get rid of the ACA. They have failed every time. A couple of other points on your post: Can you point me to a link to wear the cost of insurance of insurance where double, because the information that I have does not compute with that. To the extent that a lot of people will now be covered for a lot more (things like mental health care, pre-natal care etc) than they were not covered for previously on cheaper plans. Add to that the decreased deductibles and other subsidies, and people will be covered for a lot more, for the same or less cost. The ACA is not run by the IRS. From the linky Sadly, yes, this will lead to increased profits for the insurance companies. That could have been avoided under a single payer option, but the Republicans didn't want that and so the ACA is the result. It's certainly not the best option, but at least it's a start and will allow people who were unable to get insurance before to now get coverage. The part that baffles me the most, well, one of the parts that baffles me the most, is why the Republicans are against the ACA. It was their plan after all. The part that ticks me off the most, is that we have Republicans (mainly TeaParty nutbags) who are prepared to cost the USA billions by forcing a government shutdown, but I have yet to see what their plan is for healthcare reform. Maybe they are of the opinion that the healthcare system in the USA doesn't need reforming, but I think that they would be in the minority.TeaParty nutbags like Cruz are prepared to spend hours talking about nothing, reading books by Dr Seuss, but are offering nothing as far as telling people what their plans are. And yes I use the word nutbags deliberately. The GOP is supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility, but anybody who is prepared to throw away billions of dollars cannot be considered fiscally conservative and deserves the nutbag title. I suspect that the shutdown will not last long, but I fear that with the debt ceiling vote rapidly approaching, the nutbags will again be doing everything they can to use the debt ceiling as a political plaything. I also suspect that there will be plenty of little red negs attached to this post, so I will add this: The TeaParty is ruining the Republicans. If Cruz is the Republican nominee for the next Presidential race he will be smashed by whoever the Democrats choose to run. The TeaParty and their backers are dangerous to the United States and to the world. If they decide to play political games with the debt ceiling, and in the worst case scenario, choose to let the USA default on it's debts. The fallout could be substantial and felt world wide.I miss the old Republicans. I miss the party of fiscal responsibility. I don't like the TeaParty trying to turn the Republican Party into something it was never meant to be. Now, before anyone throws a neg - debate the points. Prove to me that the TeaParty has the best interests of Americans at heart. And prove to me that they are not destroying the USA. Show me what their plans are for healthcare reform and prove to me that they are better than the ACA. Better yet - email your TeaParty representatives and ask them what plans they have with regard to healthcare reform. Ask them what they are offering that is so much better than the ACA that they are prepared to force the government to shutdown. Ask them what they have brought to the negotiation table other than - "Get rid of Obamacare".

Big difference aca and Obama care is if the states handled their own healthcare Obama wouldn't be able to regulate the commerce since it doesn't cross state lines

Democrats including Obama fought against insurance company's competing across state line for ever

Now Obama care can't survive with out going across state line in his socialist national health care and Obama is forcing the private sector to provide welefare if they sell insurance

Pre existing conditions does not fall under insurance

It doesn't meet the definition of insurance

Why would some guy in the private sector want to open a business to pay someone's bills for them and lose money

Plus they have to pay taxes to the govt to provide welefare

If you lose because of illness or injury you now can pin it on a business man

All you liberals can gang up on one company and bankrupt it by all going to say Allstate with your pre existing conditions till they are bankrupt

Then move on to the next company

Don't you think every American should be protected by the govt including business men and women

Or do you think it's good to make laws that could destroy business men and women

I can see the lobs saying ok we got to destroy this company or that company so if you have pre existing conditions go sign up there

You liberals are the disease of America

You got your bankruptcy courts , you got your govt welefare you now want everyone else's wealth to be yours as if you earned it

I say shut down the go t if obamas Marxist socialist nationalist ways continue till he's removed for no confidence

This is a free country if you libs don't like it get out

Edited by dontlop
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My husband makes less than 60k each year. We just got our first full paycheck after seaquestration and now no check at all. I dispise that either party can do this to us and yet they still get their paychecks. No one should have that power.

I'm right there with you.  Had 3 pay periods towards the end of this fiscal year that basically amounted to a 20% pay cut.  I'm currently considered an "essential" position, so I'm at work (On lunch so I can do a little web surfing) and am one of the 3 out of 23 in my section that they kept working. However, I'm still technically on furlough, and am NOT 100 percent assured that I will be paid for my time that I am working as a Federal Technician.

 

As for the Military being paid - this only applies to the Active Duty military - and most likely their pay checks will be late. The civilians at DFAS who process the pay have been cut by almost 50% manpower. My son in law is an Active Army recruiter - and his PCS move to a new station was just cancelled. For the recruiting force - no PCS moves in the foreseeable future.

 

I have been given advance warning that most likely my National Guard drill will be cancelled this weekend unless something happens by noon tomorrow. If something is done within 2-3 weeks, then the drill will be rescheduled.  If not, then we will simply lose that drill period for the year. For me, that means a loss of almost $500.00 in income this month. It will also effect my military retirement - not as much, only about $0.65 cents a month on my retirement check - but if you add that up, in a period of 10 years, that's $78.00 dollars.

 

I also sit next to our mail room - which is completely empty. We have 1 person who has been given the additional duty of getting the mail (guess who) but we cannot accept any mail that does not already have postage on it. So, we can not send certified mail like we normally do, no FedEx, No UPS, and we can't use our postage meter. Already had a 2 star get mad at me because I wouldn't take his letter to Janet Napalitano because it didn't have a stamp. *lol*

Just had a thought - I wonder how many of the over 800,000 furloughed workers are veterans? How many of them used their VA loan to get their house? I wonder how many may lose their house if this isn't resolved quickly? (Yeah, I'm worried about it.) I'm thinking that if the VA has to cover the guarantee on those loans, they will have to pay out more than if they had  kept those employees working. Just a thought.

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We have a bill of rights and liberals don't have any right to trample on our rights like they have with Obama care

Well then......Is it a free country for libs also?   :shrug:  GO RV, then BV

Bad answer

Freedom doesn't cover trampling on American citizen rights

That could start a civil war

Edited by dontlop
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Big difference aca and Obama care is if the states handled their own healthcare Obama wouldn't be able to regulate the commerce since it doesn't cross state lines

Democrats including Obama fought against insurance company's competing across state line for ever

 

Yes, because 50 social experiments all going on at the same time would be just wonderful.  What happens if you fall ill while visiting Aunty May across state lines?  Would you need to buy extra insurance to cross state lines?

Now Obama care can't survive with out going across state line in his socialist national health care and Obama is forcing the private sector to provide welefare if they sell insurance

 

Ummmm - mandating that people purchase insurance from an insurance company (private company) would appear to me to be very anti socialism.

Pre existing conditions does not fall under insurance

It doesn't meet the definition of insurance

 

So, you have a pre existing condition and your response is "Too bad, hurry up and die."  Nice.

Why would some guy in the private sector want to open a business to pay someone's bills for them and lose money

Plus they have to pay taxes to the govt to provide welefare

If you lose because of illness or injury you now can pin it on a business man

All you liberals can gang up on one company and bankrupt it by all going to say Allstate with your pre existing conditions till they are bankrupt

Then move on to the next company

 

That's a nice little strawman you've built.  Can you explain why anybody would do that?

Don't you think every American should be protected by the govt including business men and women

Or do you think it's good to make laws that could destroy business men and women

I can see the lobs saying ok we got to destroy this company or that company so if you have pre existing conditions go sign up there

You liberals are the disease of America

You got your bankruptcy courts , you got your govt welefare you now want everyone else's wealth to be yours as if you earned it

I say shut down the go t if obamas Marxist socialist nationalist ways continue till he's removed for no confidence

This is a free country if you libs don't like it get out

 

Okay.  Assuming that little bit of rubbish is all true.  President Obama and evil little liberals are destroying the wealth of the USA with the ACA.  What's your plan to reform healthcare?

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I nominate House Republicans for the BONE HEAD PLAY OF THE DAY.

 

The GOP has lost it's mind. The American people have, and will continue, to turn AGAINST the Republican Party for it's disregard of the welfare of it's people.

 

IF the Republicans had come up with an alternative plan to Obama Care, then they might be able to say that they have the welfare of our country & it's people in mind while they shut down the government. HOWEVER, what they are telling the American people now is that they place the welfare of Big Business ahead of the individual worker.

 

Just plain STUPID.

 

This will hurt the Republican Party down he road. Take my word for it. Oh yeah, you still will not win the fight against Obama Care anyway. :)

 

The Democrates are pushing Obama Care & Republicans are pushing No Care. LOL

 

 

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Rayzur,

 

You and I generally see eye to eye, but in this case we are poles apart.

Its probably just an artifact of incomplete communication... I'm trying to be less wordy... Not sure its working so well on the actual communication end.. :rolleyes:

 

The election that returned President Obama to the Whitehouse had the ACA at its heart.  Republicans were against, Democrats were for.  The fact is that the President was re-elected (with quite a margin).  I suspect that if Romney had of won the election, the ACA may have been repealed.  (Would have been ironic considering the ACA (Obamacare) is much the same as Romneycare in Massachusetts but anyaway).

 

I thought about that afterward.... makes sense in that context....

 

Whether people like it or not - the system of government is that people vote for representatives to, well, represent them in the halls of government.

The ACA is law.  It has been voted on, and passed.  And, whatsmore, it is going to go ahead whether the government shuts down or not.  Republicans have tried, I think 41 times, to get rid of the ACA.  They have failed every time.

 

True and good point. And I would add to it, thinking about it... there is really no way anything should be conceded as a result of this shutdown... That is hostage negotiation 101. Meaning, if they actually were successful, it would start a whole new genre of approach, with each party being able to pull this every time they as a party wanted something done that didn't get done by way of the government infrastructure process..... One could probably also point out that there was not ever any counter offered in proposing something other than what was voted into existence.

 

A couple of other points on your post:

 

Can you point me to a link to wear the cost of insurance of insurance where double, because the information that I have does not compute with that.  To the extent that a lot of people will now be covered for a lot more (things like mental health care, pre-natal care etc) than they were not covered for previously on cheaper plans.  Add to that the decreased deductibles and other subsidies, and people will be covered for a lot more, for the same or less cost.

 

Well I could photo copy my pay stub and show the increase. And it has happened to all my colleagues.... It just about, though not exactly, but just about doubled. My friends paying for private insurance had theirs just about double as well.... So indeed I was speaking purely from personal experience... I also have insurance that offered those services anyway, so again, personal experience.....

What I mean by less care...is not the number of services but the quality or practice of services....... Its healthcare in general...not brought about by ObamaCare.... but will  permeate OC and just make it more real..... (and true it is NOT from OC, it started before that, I am annoyed I have to pay more for less in general apart from O/C)  Its this thing called evidence based medicine.... (which is total bull sheeet). Rand and other companies... Merck... developed checklist protocols that providers must now follow..... screw what the patient needs... go through the checklist.... and then in systems, other providers make sure the primary followed the checklist and will and has denied medicine and treatment without ever having to see the patient, based solely upon a checklist... Not something I think.... its something I know. The paperwork you have to fill out to get a medicine approved for a patient because it has worked for years, is a nightmare... because either the medicine or the patient doesn't follow the checklist variables....  and even the overseeing provider can deny it without ever seeing the patient....This is how doctors are treating other doctors...Indeed many are retiring as one can no longer practice medicine.... its become a paperwork nightmare trying to save the insurance company money, instead of treating the patient. And there is really no more need to go school.... just follow the checklist.. a high school student or nurse could practice medicine... really no need for docs anymore.... If people knew what really is going on these days, and how deeply the insurance company controls practice.... they would flip out.... Course its done under the fancy name of evidence based.... (which is a whole other subject I could rail on for hours... as in wtf does that mean anyway.... its the most uncontrolled, one case study anecdotal bs I have ever seen)...   And true this is not a reflection of O/C... its the insurance companies who will continue to insist this is how medicine is practiced until people demand better....

 

The ACA is not run by the IRS.

 

okay okay I totally short handed that objection.... though I don't think they should have a day'um  thing to do with it.. and the Supreme Court ... well that was an interesting ruling in any event...

Sadly, yes, this will lead to increased profits for the insurance companies.  That could have been avoided under a single payer option, but the Republicans didn't want that and so the ACA is the result.  It's certainly not the best option, but at least it's a start and will allow people who were unable to get insurance before to now get coverage.

 

Absolutely, single payer would have been so much better...Maybe they didn't want it cause it cut out too much profit for the insurance companies??.

 

The part that baffles me the most, well, one of the parts that baffles me the most, is why the Republicans are against the ACA. 

It was their plan after all.

Oh.... i did not know that.... interesting.... hadn't followed it that closely. No wonder people are so upset.... So is this like in-fighting within the GOP itself?

 

The part that ticks me off the most, is that we have Republicans (mainly TeaParty nutbags) who are prepared to cost the USA billions by forcing a government shutdown, but I have yet to see what their plan is for healthcare reform.  Maybe they are of the opinion that the healthcare system in the USA doesn't need reforming, but I think that they would be in the minority.

TeaParty nutbags like Cruz are prepared to spend hours talking about nothing, reading books by Dr Seuss, but are offering nothing as far as telling people what their plans are.

 

Not to mention we don't want to introduce hostage taking as a forum of government problem solving as an acceptable course of action..... or.... we will be here every time something like this comes up...

 

I also suspect that there will be plenty of little red negs attached to this post, so I will add this:

 

The TeaParty is ruining the Republicans.  If Cruz is the Republican nominee for the next Presidential race he will be smashed by whoever the Democrats choose to run.  The TeaParty and their backers are dangerous to the United States and to the world.  If they decide to play political games with the debt ceiling, and in the worst case scenario, choose to let the USA default on it's debts.  The fallout could be substantial and felt world wide.

The cumulative evidence seems to be pointing in this direction and would be hard to argue.... This country is on such a fragile edge, it would be completely irresponsible to pick this time to push our fiscal interests off into the abyss.... IF they choose this time,  I would have to question their intelligence in terms of full  understanding of the issue, and consequences of this move, as well as their ability to exercise wisdom and judgment regarding the big picture and how frickin fragile it really is right now...Forget having to decide upon a policy of isolationism..... countries are stepping away at break neck speed.... and most importantly AWAY from the USD as the world reserve currency. That would put a knife in our current way of life... for generations upon generations to come...

 

I miss the old Republicans.  I miss the party of fiscal responsibility.  I don't like the TeaParty trying to turn the Republican Party into something it was never meant to be.

 

I've been very open about Reagan being a close personal family friend (by marriage), and find it almost unthinkable that he would not be nominated for president by his own party were he to run today.... Thats how far things have moved.... Did you watch that video by Moyers? It pretty much nails it...

 

Now, before anyone throws a neg - debate the points.  Prove to me that the TeaParty has the best interests of Americans at heart.  And prove to me that they are not destroying the USA.  Show me what their plans are for healthcare reform and prove to me that they are better than the ACA.  Better yet - email your TeaParty representatives and ask them what plans they have with regard to healthcare reform.  Ask them what they are offering that is so much better than the ACA that they are prepared to force the government to shutdown.  Ask them what they have brought to the negotiation table other than - "Get rid of Obamacare".

 

Your question got me thinking, do they have a unified mission statement as to what they stand for, or what unites them? As in do they have planks or platforms with objectives and solutions... Or are they an alternative that allows folk to project onto them what they believe them to be? Honest question. I'll have to go do some research.

Edited by Rayzur
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Its probably just an artifact of incomplete communication... I'm trying to be less wordy... Not sure its working so well on the actual communication end.. :rolleyes:

 

Words are wonderful things - keep using them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

True and good point. And I would add to it, thinking about it... there is really no way anything should be conceded as a result of this shutdown... That is hostage negotiation 101. Meaning, if they actually were successful, it would start a whole new genre of approach, with each party being able to pull this every time they as a party wanted something done that didn't get done by way of the government infrastructure process..... One could probably also point out that there was not ever any counter offered in proposing something other than what was voted into existence.

 

That to me is the problem.  The Republicans are saying - we will not allow government to continue unless the ACA is gone.  The time for negotiation was years ago when the ACA was proposed.  You are 100% correct in saying that holdin the government to ransom is not the way to get things done.

 

 

 

Well I could photo copy my pay stub and show the increase. And it has happened to all my colleagues.... It just about, though not exactly, but just about doubled. My friends paying for private insurance had theirs just about double as well.... So indeed I was speaking purely from personal experience... I also have insurance that offered those services anyway, so again, personal experience.....

What I mean by less care...is not the number of services but the quality or practice of services....... Its healthcare in general...not brought about by ObamaCare.... but will  permeate OC and just make it more real..... (and true it is NOT from OC, it started before that, I am annoyed I have to pay more for less in general apart from O/C)  Its this thing called evidence based medicine.... (which is total bull sheeet). Rand and other companies... Merck... developed checklist protocols that providers must now follow..... screw what the patient needs... go through the checklist.... and then in systems, other providers make sure the primary followed the checklist and will and has denied medicine and treatment without ever having to see the patient, based solely upon a checklist... Not something I think.... its something I know. The paperwork you have to fill out to get a medicine approved for a patient because it has worked for years, is a nightmare... because either the medicine or the patient doesn't follow the checklist variables....  and even the overseeing provider can deny it without ever seeing the patient....This is how doctors are treating other doctors...Indeed many are retiring as one can no longer practice medicine.... its become a paperwork nightmare trying to save the insurance company money, instead of treating the patient. And there is really no more need to go school.... just follow the checklist.. a high school student or nurse could practice medicine... really no need for docs anymore.... If people knew what really is going on these days, and how deeply the insurance company controls practice.... they would flip out.... Course its done under the fancy name of evidence based.... (which is a whole other subject I could rail on for hours... as in wtf does that mean anyway.... its the most uncontrolled, one case study anecdotal bs I have ever seen)...   And true this is not a reflection of O/C... its the insurance companies who will continue to insist this is how medicine is practiced until people demand better....

 

I'm just about to step onto a plane so I'll respond more to this point later on.

 

The ACA is not run by the IRS.

 

okay okay I totally short handed that objection.... though I don't think they should have a day'um  thing to do with it.. and the Supreme Court ... well that was an interesting ruling in any event...

 

For determining rebates etc, the IRS has to be involved........................unfortunately.

 

 

Absolutely, single payer would have been so much better...Maybe they didn't want it cause it cut out too much profit for the insurance companies??.

 

Near as I can tell - that was the issue.  Apart from the socialism / marxism rubbish.

 

 

It was their plan after all.

Oh.... i did not know that.... interesting.... hadn't followed it that closely. No wonder people are so upset.... So is this like in-fighting within the GOP itself?

 

Yes.  I think if it was up to Boehner - a deal would probably have been reached.

 

 

 

Not to mention we don't want to introduce hostage taking as a forum of government problem solving as an acceptable course of action..... or.... we will be here every time something like this comes up...

 

The natural result is things like the issue with the debt ceiling getting "kicked down the road" rather than resolved.

 

 

The cumulative evidence seems to be pointing in this direction and would be hard to argue.... This country is on such a fragile edge, it would be completely irresponsible to pick this time to push our fiscal interests off into the abyss.... IF they choose this time,  I would have to question their intelligence in terms of full  understanding of the issue, and consequences of this move, as well as their ability to exercise wisdom and judgment regarding the big picture and how frickin fragile it really is right now...Forget having to decide upon a policy of isolationism..... countries are stepping away at break neck speed.... and most importantly AWAY from the USD as the world reserve currency. That would put a knife in our current way of life... for generations upon generations to come...

 

 

I've been very open about Reagan being a close personal family friend (by marriage), and find it almost unthinkable that he would not be nominated for president by his own party were he to run today.... Thats how far things have moved.... Did you watch that video by Moyers? It pretty much nails it...

 

I missed the Moyers video.

As far as Reagan not getting the GOP nomination in today's USA, I would like to add that I don't think Nixon would get a nomination for either party.

 

 

 

Your question got me thinking, do they have a unified mission statement as to what they stand for, or what unites them? As in do they have planks or platforms with objectives and solutions... Or are they an alternative that allows folk to project onto them what they believe them to be? Honest question. I'll have to go do some research.

 

Definite divide in the GOP between Moderate Republicans and TeaParty.  I have no idea where it will lead.

 

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Big difference aca and Obama care is if the states handled their own healthcare Obama wouldn't be able to regulate the commerce since it doesn't cross state linesDemocrats including Obama fought against insurance company's competing across state line for ever Yes, because 50 social experiments all going on at the same time would be just wonderful.  What happens if you fall ill while visiting Aunty May across state lines?  Would you need to buy extra insurance to cross state lines?Now Obama care can't survive with out going across state line in his socialist national health care and Obama is forcing the private sector to provide welefare if they sell insurance Ummmm - mandating that people purchase insurance from an insurance company (private company) would appear to me to be very anti socialism.Pre existing conditions does not fall under insuranceIt doesn't meet the definition of insurance So, you have a pre existing condition and your response is "Too bad, hurry up and die."  Nice.Why would some guy in the private sector want to open a business to pay someone's bills for them and lose moneyPlus they have to pay taxes to the govt to provide welefareIf you lose because of illness or injury you now can pin it on a business manAll you liberals can gang up on one company and bankrupt it by all going to say Allstate with your pre existing conditions till they are bankruptThen move on to the next company That's a nice little strawman you've built.  Can you explain why anybody would do that?Don't you think every American should be protected by the govt including business men and womenOr do you think it's good to make laws that could destroy business men and womenI can see the lobs saying ok we got to destroy this company or that company so if you have pre existing conditions go sign up thereYou liberals are the disease of AmericaYou got your bankruptcy courts , you got your govt welefare you now want everyone else's wealth to be yours as if you earned itI say shut down the go t if obamas Marxist socialist nationalist ways continue till he's removed for no confidenceThis is a free country if you libs don't like it get out Okay.  Assuming that little bit of rubbish is all true.  President Obama and evil little liberals are destroying the wealth of the USA with the ACA.  What's your plan to reform healthcare?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr2203/text

This should of passed in 2006 but every democrat filibustered it and finally voted against it in the senate led by Harry Reid

No body says go hurry up and die they get welefare just like they always did

But 20 million would of been able to get health care by polling together under small business association plan

They just filibustered it so George bush wouldn't get to sign it into law

The democrats are evil liars period

It's called individual membership associations

The biggest association would of been small business association health care

Where a smal business with 5 employees could pool together with millions of small businesses to get group rates like big corporations get

I sat and watched the debates on senate floor

Democrats filibustered and destroyed any chance of health care reform under George bush

Just like the democrats swore up and down that Fannie may and Freddy Mac were sound institutions and said George bush was stupid

Well it turns out bush was the smart one and all the demo rats were the stupid ones or the democrats were just outright lying so the economy would fail under bushes presidency

Even though it was democrat policies that caused the housing melt down

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:twothumbs: 

Quoting from the article:

one party in one house of Congress in one branch of government doesn't get to shut down the entire government just to refight the results of an election," Obama said at the White House.

 

What frickin election.... I don't recall getting to vote or electing ObamaCare into law!!! There is no way I could imagine anyone voting  yes to double insurance premiums, with half the care, run by the IRS, with bigger than ever profits for the insurance industry and still precluding 30% of the population from getting medical care....

Talk about insurance fraud of the  century!!!!

 

And very glad that TD and others in military will still get paid..... YES!!!!!!

:bravo:  :twothumbs:  :bravo:  :bump:

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I'm right there with you.  Had 3 pay periods towards the end of this fiscal year that basically amounted to a 20% pay cut.  I'm currently considered an "essential" position, so I'm at work (On lunch so I can do a little web surfing) and am one of the 3 out of 23 in my section that they kept working. However, I'm still technically on furlough, and am NOT 100 percent assured that I will be paid for my time that I am working as a Federal Technician.

 

As for the Military being paid - this only applies to the Active Duty military - and most likely their pay checks will be late. The civilians at DFAS who process the pay have been cut by almost 50% manpower. My son in law is an Active Army recruiter - and his PCS move to a new station was just cancelled. For the recruiting force - no PCS moves in the foreseeable future.

 

I have been given advance warning that most likely my National Guard drill will be cancelled this weekend unless something happens by noon tomorrow. If something is done within 2-3 weeks, then the drill will be rescheduled.  If not, then we will simply lose that drill period for the year. For me, that means a loss of almost $500.00 in income this month. It will also effect my military retirement - not as much, only about $0.65 cents a month on my retirement check - but if you add that up, in a period of 10 years, that's $78.00 dollars.

 

I also sit next to our mail room - which is completely empty. We have 1 person who has been given the additional duty of getting the mail (guess who) but we cannot accept any mail that does not already have postage on it. So, we can not send certified mail like we normally do, no FedEx, No UPS, and we can't use our postage meter. Already had a 2 star get mad at me because I wouldn't take his letter to Janet Napalitano because it didn't have a stamp. *lol*

Just had a thought - I wonder how many of the over 800,000 furloughed workers are veterans? How many of them used their VA loan to get their house? I wonder how many may lose their house if this isn't resolved quickly? (Yeah, I'm worried about it.) I'm thinking that if the VA has to cover the guarantee on those loans, they will have to pay out more than if they had  kept those employees working. Just a thought.

 

Tank Dude I was hoping that O would have giving you imunity... like the crongress has not.

 

What concerns me more is that our kiddos that are not prepared... and are going to be put in a hurtlock.

 

Really TankDude... it just pizzed me off that these folks in Washington DC want to mess with your pay check for their games.

 

I'm sure you know this... but as well prepared for this game... we have a whole kiddos that are not.

Edited by Maggie123
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