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The Prophet Muhammad


waterman13
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Got it.

You gotta be a lawyer to get to heaven

Cause the everyday joe sure as hell wont understand a word you both have said. 

Its wonderful that you two theologians are so gifted.

But not so for most the masses.  

Dog53, it doesn't take a vast knowledge, but it does take some effort on the individual who wants to know.  You have to remember, my conversation is with someone who does study the Scripture.  Therefore what I would say to him maybe a little different that what I would say to someone who doesn't study the Bible that much.  It would be the same message or teaching, but a little less pointed.  

 

Dog53, you can get to know how to "get to heaven," but you can't listen to men.  You MUST get to the source of truth and that is revealed in the Bible.  Jesus is the Truth, but it is the Scriptures that tell about Him.  There are too many voices in the spiritual realm that speak their "views" and "opinions" without consulting the Bible.  Much of what they say is pure "fluff" as Athim says.  I don't mean to be offensive, but "hearsay" and "better felt than told" religion is perverting the gospel.  You may be doing this, but if not, you need to take some time and start reading the Bible.  See what it has to say.  It will amaze you how the fog will begin to clear and begin to understand what God is saying and how vastly different it is from what religions of men are teaching.  God speed.  

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Dog53, it doesn't take a vast knowledge, but it does take some effort on the individual who wants to know.  You have to remember, my conversation is with someone who does study the Scripture.  Therefore what I would say to him maybe a little different that what I would say to someone who doesn't study the Bible that much.  It would be the same message or teaching, but a little less pointed.  

 

Dog53, you can get to know how to "get to heaven," but you can't listen to men.  You MUST get to the source of truth and that is revealed in the Bible.  Jesus is the Truth, but it is the Scriptures that tell about Him.  There are too many voices in the spiritual realm that speak their "views" and "opinions" without consulting the Bible.  Much of what they say is pure "fluff" as Athim says.  I don't mean to be offensive, but "hearsay" and "better felt than told" religion is perverting the gospel.  You may be doing this, but if not, you need to take some time and start reading the Bible.  See what it has to say.  It will amaze you how the fog will begin to clear and begin to understand what God is saying and how vastly different it is from what religions of men are teaching.  God speed.  

 

Thank you Nelg    :)

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Wow, a religious post that almost makes sense to me! hahahaha. Actually, I have heard this before from another Christian-that the Catholic Church is the Great ***** that is spoken about in Revelations. OK, so the BIG question is this: If the catholics are the "bad guys" (so to speak), why do so many Christians accept what they INVENTED to be true? In particular, the deity of Christ? The Trinity is NEVER found in either bible. It was invented as an article of faith by the early Catholics in 285 and 320 AD. Before that, TRUE Christians didn't accept this and, as the posts mention, they were hunted down and murdered. Basically, agree with all that was said here. Us Jews have heard this before also. Before, we were friends to the Arabic peoples, now look at us?!?! A true shame upon both groups.

 

'FACTS' always get +1 from me. Even if they hurt!!!!

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Good post above Nelg.

 

God revealing His Truths to us as we go through life is the greatest "high" ever! Love it!

WM13

Waterman13, thanks for the complement, but the statement "P. S. I love this stuff more than the Dinar I hold." should be attributed to Thim, but we should all agree with his statement.  

 

God Is Love :)

Yep, but His love is governed by His Holiness.  He does nothing outside His purity.  

Watching......MSN-Emoticon-058.gif

 

 

:cowboy2:

LOL!!  I lov it.  Looks like a French artist examining his (mustache) work. 

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Wow, a religious post that almost makes sense to me! hahahaha. Actually, I have heard this before from another Christian-that the Catholic Church is the Great ***** that is spoken about in Revelations. OK, so the BIG question is this: If the catholics are the "bad guys" (so to speak), why do so many Christians accept what they INVENTED to be true? In particular, the deity of Christ? The Trinity is NEVER found in either bible. It was invented as an article of faith by the early Catholics in 285 and 320 AD. Before that, TRUE Christians didn't accept this and, as the posts mention, they were hunted down and murdered. Basically, agree with all that was said here. Us Jews have heard this before also. Before, we were friends to the Arabic peoples, now look at us?!?! A true shame upon both groups.

 

I can’t speak to that interpretation.  It is a little “iffy” when it comes to exegesis and application.  The Revelation was written to comfort people in John’s day (80-100 a.d.) who were undergoing persecution and death from the Roman gov.  The point of the Revelation is to show that the Christians overcome and win even under the most hostile of circumstances.  A prophecy of a future group 300 or so years later, the Roman Catholic Church, which would persecute and murder Christians, would have little comfort to the church of God during the time of  John. 

 

The Deity of Jesus has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.  Christ’s deity, as a fixed doctrine and teaching, was being taught by the church during the first century and a couple of hundred years before the Catholic was ever conceived or established. 

 

Debates about the deity of Christ were going on during His ministry and continue even today.  The reason is simple.  Either one must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, or, He is lying and we must reject Him as an imposter and fraud.  If He is Lord, we must worship Him.  If He is a fraud, we are lost and without hope.

 

I believe from the evidence of Scripture and from the power of the resurrection that He is God, come in the flesh, and we should worship and serve Him with all our being. 

 

The RCC did not invent the teaching of the Godhead (I have problems with calling the teaching  “the Trinity” since that is not a biblical word and carries with some wrong ideas about God.)  But the Deity of Christ was a fixed teaching long before the Catholic Church.  During the first century, the Christians had no problem with believing that Christ was/is God come in the flesh.  It is stated over and over by the apostles of Jesus as well as prophets inspired by the Holy Spirit.  Such a “revelation” (a fact hidden but now revealed) could not have been conceived in the human mind, and certainly not the apostles who were all Jewish. 

 

Thus, in their writings, the New Testament scriptures all compiled before the end of the first century, there are many references to Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, or Deity.  (Since your question was about the Deity of Jesus, my information will revolve around whether He is God come in the flesh.)

 

Often it is important to define terms to adequately understand what is being said. 

 

a)    When I use the term “God” it is use to state the divine nature of the One Being discussed.  It is used in a general sense as any one possessing the divine characteristics: total holy, total love, total just, total mercy, total Truth.  It is God Who is an All Powerful, All Knowing, Omni-present, Self-existent, Eternal, and an Immaterial and Incorporeal Spirit Being.  (That was a mouth full . . . or sentence full. Ha.)  Now, I am making an assumption at this point that any Jewish or Christian person would agree to this point.  I will not take the time to justify what I just said with passages from the Bible.  I can furnish that if you want. 

 

B)    God is referred to in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Since God is the nature of the being under consideration, then it can refer to anyone with those identical qualities and characteristics under the same umbrella term of “God.”  (It is like the term “human,” many people can be called human because they have the same nature.) 

 

c)    But in this case the Scripture recognize that there is but One God, which is a great burden or teaching of the Old Testament [OT] (cf. Dt. 4:35, 39; 1Kgs 8:60; Isa 45:5-6; Zech 14:9); but the same teaching is found in the New Testament [NT] (cf. Mk 12:19-32; Jn 17:3; 1Co 8:4-6; 1Tm 2:5).  So, according to the Bible,  God is not merely one, but He is the only One.  There can be only one infinite and perfect being.  The divine nature is undivided and indivisible is intimated in Dt 6:4”Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”  God does not consist of parts nor can He be divided into parts. 

 

Now to the subject at hand, Is Jesus, Lord, God, and Savior??

im for blasphemy because they understood that He had declared himself to be God.

 

The writings of the apostles and prophets of the New Testament are some of the earliest writings of Christianity.  They are expressive of what the early saints believed about Jesus.

The Gospel of John begins with a remarkable declaration of both Christ's deity and full humanity. (Jno 1:1-2 with 14).  Read verse 18 in the NASV.  It is stating what the Greek text says, “the only begotten God.”

 

The author of Hebrews writes plainly of Christ's deity (Heb 1:1-2; Heb 1:8). Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever. (States that Jesus is LORD, for he reigns; God, or deity; and eternal, he is forever and ever.)

 

Philippians 2:5-11 also talks of Jesus existing in the form of God. The Greek term used for form is “morphe”, denoting an outward manifestation of an inner essence.  Mention should also be made of the use by New Testament writers of the word “Lord” for Jesus. The same Greek word was used in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, as the translated word for the Hebrew words Yahweh and Adonai, two special names given to God.  OT: “Lord” or “Yahweh”, is the term for absolute deity.  In the NT the term is “kyrios” – LORD.  It was the earlier practice of appealing to Jesus as “Lord” which indicated that they considered Him to be God.  In 26 quotes from the OT in the NT, the writers attribute LORD to Jesus. 

 

John the Baptist prepared the way for the Lord:  Isa 40:3 with Mk 1:1-2.  In the OT passage, it is Yahweh who is coming.  In the NT passage Mark (by the Holy Spirit) applies the fulfillment to Jesus. This would be saying that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Old Testament.

 

Jesus is the First and Last: Isaiah 41:4 with Rev. 1:7-8, 17-18.  The Lord is speaking in Isaiah and He says that “He has called forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last.  I am He.’”  In the Revelation John, the apostle writes, “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even So. Amen.  I am the Alpha and the Omega. Says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”  Matthew 26 Jesus is being questioned by the High Priest who said, I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.:  Jesus said to him, “You have said it; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”  At that point the High Priest tour his robes, saying, “He has blasphemed!  What further need do we have of witnesses?” Meaning that he, the High Priest, knew that Jesus was claiming to be God. But what Jesus said in Matthew 26 is here repeated and states that He is the First and the Last, the Almighty.

 

Jesus is the Only Savior:  Isa 43:10 with Lk 19:10; Titus 2:11-14.  Isaiah words state that before the Lord there was no God formed and there will be none after Him.  In other words, He is the Only God!  In verse 11 the Lord states, I, even I, am the Lord; and there is no savior besides Me.” A very exclusive claim is being made by the Lord.  But in Luke 19:10, Jesus, the Son of Man, has come to “seek and to save that which was lost.” And, there are several passage through out the NT that declare Jesus to be the Savior of mankind.  Titus 2:11-14 makes it clear that Jesus is the Savior and Lord with the exclusive right of providing salvation.  Paul writes of Jesus “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.” 

 

Call upon His name:  Joel 2:32 with Act 4:12; Rom 10:13-17. Joel writes of how salvation can be received, and that is by “calling on the name of the Lord.”  To Joel, this was and is the only God, Yahweh.  Peter speaks in Acts concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ, and declares the exclusiveness of salvation in no one else; “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.”  While Paul in Romans states that individuals are to “Confess with the mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raise Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” In verse 13 Paul quotes the passage in Joel as referring to Christ. 

 

Every knee shall bow:  Isa 45:22-25 with Phil 2:10-11. God states in Isaiah 45 that individuals are to turn to Him, and be saved, for I am God, and there is no other. For to Him every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.  Then he states that “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’” While this same passage is used to state that every will bow and confess Jesus as Lord!” 

 

In all these passages there is a direct fulfillment found in Jesus.  He is the only God and Savior of the world! 

 

IF what we have said and read from the Bible is true, then it leaves us no choice but to conclude that all other sub-beliefs in Jesus are false.  Christ's deity is the foundation upon which the Christian faith rests.

 

The proof positive that Jesus is Who He claimed to be, and the Lord God Who comes to save mankind from death, is His resurrection from the grave.  Paul writes, “He was declared to be the Son of God with power, by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord (Rm 1:3-4).

 

There are many more passage that we could read, but these are enough for now. 

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So God had a beginning? God was killed by man. God got hungry? God had a mama?

Sorry, doesn't fly with this Jew. Also, the water analogy doesn't work because, God very clearly stated, "I am God and do not change..." Comparing god to something that does have different states doesnt work.

Jesus stated, "I am a man....." "sent by my father in Heaven..." etc. Many verse state he is a man (not to debate the son of god issue)

On his return, "No one knows, not even I. Only the Father in Heaven..." If he was God, why didn't just state he knew? Contradictions in what is stated repeatedly in the Bible. But again, doesn't matter to me since I am not of your religion. I will continue to believe in ONLY ONE GOD and continue to consider the whole "trinity" thing an invention of the Catholics. cheers

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Your statement reveals that you are not interested in inquiring about the Deity of Jesus. And, even if I did present the proof that He was God come in the flesh that you would accept those proofs.  Closed minds are seldom convinced even with facts. If you are truly interested, let me know and we can discuss this and I can assist you in understanding some of these supposed contradictions. Shalom.

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Your statement reveals that you are not interested in inquiring about the Deity of Jesus. And, even if I did present the proof that He was God come in the flesh that you would accept those proofs.  Closed minds are seldom convinced even with facts. If you are truly interested, let me know and we can discuss this and I can assist you in understanding some of these supposed contradictions. Shalom.

Only God can open someone's heart and mind to receive understanding, I pray He does.

WM13

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Your statement reveals that you are not interested in inquiring about the Deity of Jesus. And, even if I did present the proof that He was God come in the flesh that you would accept those proofs.  Closed minds are seldom convinced even with facts. If you are truly interested, let me know and we can discuss this and I can assist you in understanding some of these supposed contradictions. Shalom.

 

Nelg, I come in peace. :tiphat:

No one is questioning the sincerity of your religious convictions when they happen to profess another creed or theological belief. Theirs is just as sincere as your own and probably just as well grounded. Besides, you cannot speak for all Christians. Even Christians don't agree on the exegetical themes and dogma you bring forth. For example, Christianity is divided into over 40,000 Christian sects, according to a decade-long study by Christian scholars. Most believe in the Trinity and the rest don't, just like in other matters of Christian faith. 

 

The Trinity as an intellectual construct also defies logic. If God is an unknown Spirit, if no human being can either fully know or comprehend Jesus, and if the Holy Spirit can only be experienced  (not fully known) then how is it possible to make comparisons between Them, let alone know Their exact relationship to each other? It's not possible, in other words; man can only conjecture, which is not something to go to war over. 

 

As for the Jews (generally speaking), God did not abandon them as Christian clerics preach. That's why they are 'back' in the Holy Land as Moses promised. Although no one can prove a negative, their belief in Jesus would probably be 'different' if Christian theologians had not posited that He was equal to God, which the actual words of the Holy Bible reject. But it's a moot point.

 

What matters to me most of all is how people of creeds different than one's own are persecuted. As a Christian, how can you forget the bloody wars within Christianity itself. How can any Christian dogma be taught as the word of God when Christians have historically slaughtered both Muslims and Christians while other Christians turned a blind eye. This has, again, happened as recently as the '90s; Remember the war in Bosnia and Croatia? The below represents what happened in one town.

 

"Up to 7,500 men, and boys over 13 years old, were killed. They were trucked or marched to their places of death. Up to 3,000, many in the act of trying to escape, were shot or decapitated in the fields. (Mladic [Orthodox] had sent out his written order to 'block, crush and destroy the straggling parts of the Muslim group'; it was carried out.) 1,500 were locked in a warehouse and sprayed with machine gun fire and grenades. Others died in their thousands on farms, football fields, school playgrounds. The whole action was carried out with military efficiency. (It is said that the transport drivers were each forced to kill one man, to deter them from testifying against the Serb troops [Orthodox] later.)

"Thousands of the bodies were buried in mass graves. US aerial reconnaissance film shows the signs of a mass grave being covered by earth-moving equipment. Later many bodies were dug up and moved to more secret burial places."

 

So when we consider what fanatical Muslims are doing in the Middle East, we must remember that the blood of others has been on Christian hands almost since the beginnings of the Christian Church. (That's not taught in Sunday School)

 

Remember....I come in peace.

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  Nelg, I come in peace. 

No one is questioning the sincerity of your religious convictions when they happen to profess another creed or theological belief. Theirs is just as sincere as your own and probably just as well grounded. Besides, you cannot speak for all Christians. Even Christians don't agree on the exegetical themes and dogma you bring forth. For example, Christianity is divided into over 40,000 Christian sects, according to a decade-long study by Christian scholars. Most believe in the Trinity and the rest don't, just like in other matters of Christian faith. 

Thank you Wayfarer.  Sincerity of ones religious convictions does not make it correct or wrong, it just means they have convictions that they hold about politics, religion, or just opinion.  No one questions that.  Actually, most religious groups are divided over matters of faith and practice.  Individuals in those groups believe what they are doing is what they should be doing according to their god or gods.  The 40,000 sects that you mentioned are not all, if one goes by their study guidelines.  There are possible thousands of others since most people “do what’s right in their own eyes.” Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, even animists are divided as to what one should or should not believe; and the will kill each other over who is correct.  Sad lot, but that is way of religious pride. 

I speak for no one but myself.  I don’t purport to speak for any Christian group.  My purpose is to study and teach what I have found to be truth from God’s Word.  My trust is in God.   

 

The Trinity as an intellectual construct also defies logic. If God is an unknown Spirit, if no human being can either fully know or comprehend Jesus, and if the Holy Spirit can only be experienced  (not fully known) then how is it possible to make comparisons between Them, let alone know Their exact relationship to each other? It's not possible, in other words; man can only conjecture, which is not something to go to war over. 

My purpose in the post was not to discuss the “Trinity” (a term I don’t use).  How God is Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit DOES defy logic.  Many things about God defy human reasoning: creation, resurrection, eternal spiritual existence, heaven, hell, etc.  The great deifier of human logic is the cross and salvation.  I understand it by what God has revealed in His word, but to reason out the logic of what took place would take a lifetime, and still we could not comprehend it all.

Concerning the Godhead’s relationship and how it all works together, who knows.  My post was to give a very simple answer to a question I was ask: Why do people believe that Jesus is God?  It was not to show the relationship that each had to the other.  I would not be so arrogant as to think that I had the answer to things that cannot be answered.  Volumes of books have been written on the subject. 

Since the inquiry can from someone of the Jewish faith, I elected to use passages from the Old Testament that were used by the inspirited writers of the New Testament as referring to Jesus.  Those passages indicate that the Lord of the OT is also the Lord (Jesus) in the NT.  These were limited in discussion, but the implications for Jesus to be God are very real. 

As far as I know, no one is planning to go to war over these posts.  

 

As for the Jews (generally speaking), God did not abandon them as Christian clerics preach. That's why they are 'back' in the Holy Land as Moses promised. Although no one can prove a negative, their belief in Jesus would probably be 'different' if Christian theologians had not posited that He was equal to God, which the actual words of the Holy Bible reject. But it's a moot point.

The equality of Jesus was not presented by “Christian theologians” but presented by God through the revelation of the NT writings.  Jesus declared Himself to be equal with God.  The limitations He possessed were necessary as one in the flesh of man, and those limitations were only for the period of time that God was in the flesh and not after His return to the Godhead.  Christ, the Word, was in the beginning with God and was God.  When He became flesh it was for a purpose, to redeem humanity from separation and death.  Through His death upon the cross (including the time He was in the grave and hades) Jesus suffer the wrath of God for the sins mankind have committed.  His resurrection and ascension back to heaven declared His work of saving mankind to be valid.  To reject this aspect of God is to reject the predetermined plan of the Godhead, and to deny Christ.  Far from being a moot point, it is the point to be discussed. 

 

What matters to me most of all is how people of creeds different than one's own are persecuted. As a Christian, how can you forget the bloody wars within Christianity itself. How can any Christian dogma be taught as the word of God when Christians have historically slaughtered both Muslims and Christians while other Christians turned a blind eye. This has, again, happened as recently as the '90s; Remember the war in Bosnia and Croatia? The below represents what happened in one town.

No one can forget the wars and persecution that an apostate church released on the world.  I do not hold to such a dogma written, believed, and held by any group.  It is far from being Christian and far from being biblical.  Since the cross of Christ, no teaching, instruction, mandate, or power from the Christian church as ever justified war and slaughter on any people.  To try and tie this to Christians is to not understand Christianity.  BIG difference between Christianity and human religions. 

 

"Up to 7,500 men, and boys over 13 years old, were killed. They were trucked or marched to their places of death. Up to 3,000, many in the act of trying to escape, were shot or decapitated in the fields. (Mladic [Orthodox] had sent out his written order to 'block, crush and destroy the straggling parts of the Muslim group'; it was carried out.) 1,500 were locked in a warehouse and sprayed with machine gun fire and grenades. Others died in their thousands on farms, football fields, school playgrounds. The whole action was carried out with military efficiency. (It is said that the transport drivers were each forced to kill one man, to deter them from testifying against the Serb troops [Orthodox] later.)

No one, and I repeat, NO ONE could justify such an action.  Such an event could not and world not be sanctioned by Christianity.  The false Christian religions of the world might even order such a slaughter and have done so in the past . . . and from what you said above, even the present.  However, I do not think the Orthodox Church would order such a slaughter, a tyrant would.  Some of the stories may be propaganda by those who did the killing.  Typical: blame it on someone else. I’m not saying this happened, just that might have happened so that the finger of guilt might be pointed at someone else. 

"Thousands of the bodies were buried in mass graves. US aerial reconnaissance film shows the signs of a mass grave being covered by earth-moving equipment. Later many bodies were dug up and moved to more secret burial places."
 

So when we consider what fanatical Muslims are doing in the Middle East, we must remember that the blood of others has been on Christian hands almost since the beginnings of the Christian Church. (That's not taught in Sunday School)

 I don’t know were you go to church, but we do teach this in our congregations when we study the history of religion.  But it is taught in the context of apostate religion and not the biblical Christian church of God.  It just did not happen among the churches of the New Testament.  And, yes, there is a big distinction. 

 

Remember....I come in peace.

As do I. 

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The prophet Muhammed was a bandit.  He wrote his Koran in  the 5th century.  If you have read the Septuagint and the Law of Moses you will notice it is simply a mirror image with changes to make it palatable to Arabic peoples.  He was nothing more than an opportunist.  The Arabic people had no religion and Muhammed raided a caravan of Christian Jews escaping from Roman persecution.  It was soon afterward that the Koran was written.  No deep theological thinking needs to be done here to figure this out people.  Just follow the logic.  

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Thaiexpat, on 06 Sept 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

So God had a beginning?

God was incarnated God does not have a beginning. God was not diminished in Jesus and had no limitations. In obedience He carried out the will of the Father even though He could have wiped out the earth on His own. When he returns He will, but not according to His will but the will of the Father. Though He is obedient He is not diminished, he co-operates within the Holy Trnity.

 

God was killed by man.

If you are a true Jew, then you understand that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. The sacrifices did not achieve the repentance of the people and the magnitude of Adams sin and the separation from God that it caused required a divine sacrifice; enter the sacrificial lamb, Jesus.

 

God got hungry?

As God He can relate to our human condition as a human he has set the attainable path of salvation for other humans to follow and prove through His life, miracles and love for us, that it can be done and that in fact God loves us so much that he sent His only Begotten Son to die for us. If you have children of your own as I do, then we can relate in the minutest extent to what that meant to God the Father.

 

God had a mama?

Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” The Virgin Mary is the holiest of all people born and the only person ever to be counted worthy to contain the eternal. As the hymns recount, her womb was more spacious than the heavens and the milk of her breast fed the Son of God. God is humble, humble enough to have a human mother.

Sorry, doesn't fly with this Jew. Also, the water analogy doesn't work because, God very clearly stated, "I am God and do not change..." Comparing god to something that does have different states doesn’t work.

God did not change, He became a man that was the only way to offer the eternal sacrifice by taking flesh, His spirit did not and cannot die, therefore the flesh was necessary to provide the revelation and completion of Gods plan for salvation, and to conquer death by entering it and going through it. The Ressurection.

Jesus stated, "I am a man....." "sent by my father in Heaven..." etc. Many verse state he is a man (not to debate the son of god issue)
On his return, "No one knows, not even I. Only the Father in Heaven..." If he was God, why didn't just state he knew? Contradictions in what is stated repeatedly in the Bible. But again, doesn't matter to me since I am not of your religion. I will continue to believe in ONLY
ONE GOD and continue to consider the whole "trinity" thing an invention of the Catholics. cheers

 

Jesus was crucified because He confessed to being the Son of God, how can you or I understand God in the flesh? Remember that God said in Genesis, “Let us make man in our image.” Our image, the image of a God is plural. King David said, ” The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

 

Christ said in the Gospel of Matthew 21:43, 43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”  But don’t stress, the Greeks were there buddy when your ancestors dropped the ball and through the conquering of Alexander, the Gospel was translated into Greek and spread throughout the world.

 

The law fails, circumcision is of no avail because of a people who deny the power of God, the Jewish priesthood has ended and the ORTHOOX CHRISTIAN church, which is catholic, meaning all encompassing, carries the true Christian faith NOT the church of Rome. If you want to read the book that may give God the ammunition to change your mind, read the book of Romans. It was written by Saint Paul (most awesome man) who was a Pharisee trained by the highly praised Pharisee Gamaliel.

 

If you are a Jew then are you waiting for the Messiah, and what will he be to you? My understanding is that the Messiah will put Israel on top of the world. Enter the Anti-Christ.

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  Nelg, I come in peace.

No one is questioning the sincerity of your religious convictions when they happen to profess another creed or theological belief. Theirs is just as sincere as your own and probably just as well grounded. Besides, you cannot speak for all Christians. Even Christians don't agree on the exegetical themes and dogma you bring forth. For example, Christianity is divided into over 40,000 Christian sects, according to a decade-long study by Christian scholars. Most believe in the Trinity and the rest don't, just like in other matters of Christian faith. 

Thank you Wayfarer.  Sincerity of ones religious convictions does not make it correct or wrong, it just means they have convictions that they hold about politics, religion, or just opinion.  No one questions that.  Actually, most religious groups are divided over matters of faith and practice.  Individuals in those groups believe what they are doing is what they should be doing according to their god or gods.  The 40,000 sects that you mentioned are not all, if one goes by their study guidelines.  There are possible thousands of others since most people “do what’s right in their own eyes.” Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, even animists are divided as to what one should or should not believe; and the will kill each other over who is correct.  Sad lot, but that is way of religious pride. 

I speak for no one but myself.  I don’t purport to speak for any Christian group.  My purpose is to study and teach what I have found to be truth from God’s Word.  My trust is in God.   

 

The Trinity as an intellectual construct also defies logic. If God is an unknown Spirit, if no human being can either fully know or comprehend Jesus, and if the Holy Spirit can only be experienced  (not fully known) then how is it possible to make comparisons between Them, let alone know Their exact relationship to each other? It's not possible, in other words; man can only conjecture, which is not something to go to war over. 

My purpose in the post was not to discuss the “Trinity” (a term I don’t use).  How God is Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit DOES defy logic.  Many things about God defy human reasoning: creation, resurrection, eternal spiritual existence, heaven, hell, etc.  The great deifier of human logic is the cross and salvation.  I understand it by what God has revealed in His word, but to reason out the logic of what took place would take a lifetime, and still we could not comprehend it all.

Concerning the Godhead’s relationship and how it all works together, who knows.  My post was to give a very simple answer to a question I was ask: Why do people believe that Jesus is God?  It was not to show the relationship that each had to the other.  I would not be so arrogant as to think that I had the answer to things that cannot be answered.  Volumes of books have been written on the subject. 

Since the inquiry can from someone of the Jewish faith, I elected to use passages from the Old Testament that were used by the inspirited writers of the New Testament as referring to Jesus.  Those passages indicate that the Lord of the OT is also the Lord (Jesus) in the NT.  These were limited in discussion, but the implications for Jesus to be God are very real. 

As far as I know, no one is planning to go to war over these posts.  

 

As for the Jews (generally speaking), God did not abandon them as Christian clerics preach. That's why they are 'back' in the Holy Land as Moses promised. Although no one can prove a negative, their belief in Jesus would probably be 'different' if Christian theologians had not posited that He was equal to God, which the actual words of the Holy Bible reject. But it's a moot point.

The equality of Jesus was not presented by “Christian theologians” but presented by God through the revelation of the NT writings.  Jesus declared Himself to be equal with God.  The limitations He possessed were necessary as one in the flesh of man, and those limitations were only for the period of time that God was in the flesh and not after His return to the Godhead.  Christ, the Word, was in the beginning with God and was God.  When He became flesh it was for a purpose, to redeem humanity from separation and death.  Through His death upon the cross (including the time He was in the grave and hades) Jesus suffer the wrath of God for the sins mankind have committed.  His resurrection and ascension back to heaven declared His work of saving mankind to be valid.  To reject this aspect of God is to reject the predetermined plan of the Godhead, and to deny Christ.  Far from being a moot point, it is the point to be discussed. 

 

What matters to me most of all is how people of creeds different than one's own are persecuted. As a Christian, how can you forget the bloody wars within Christianity itself. How can any Christian dogma be taught as the word of God when Christians have historically slaughtered both Muslims and Christians while other Christians turned a blind eye. This has, again, happened as recently as the '90s; Remember the war in Bosnia and Croatia? The below represents what happened in one town.

No one can forget the wars and persecution that an apostate church released on the world.  I do not hold to such a dogma written, believed, and held by any group.  It is far from being Christian and far from being biblical.  Since the cross of Christ, no teaching, instruction, mandate, or power from the Christian church as ever justified war and slaughter on any people.  To try and tie this to Christians is to not understand Christianity.  BIG difference between Christianity and human religions. 

 

"Up to 7,500 men, and boys over 13 years old, were killed. They were trucked or marched to their places of death. Up to 3,000, many in the act of trying to escape, were shot or decapitated in the fields. (Mladic [Orthodox] had sent out his written order to 'block, crush and destroy the straggling parts of the Muslim group'; it was carried out.) 1,500 were locked in a warehouse and sprayed with machine gun fire and grenades. Others died in their thousands on farms, football fields, school playgrounds. The whole action was carried out with military efficiency. (It is said that the transport drivers were each forced to kill one man, to deter them from testifying against the Serb troops [Orthodox] later.)

No one, and I repeat, NO ONE could justify such an action.  Such an event could not and world not be sanctioned by Christianity.  The false Christian religions of the world might even order such a slaughter and have done so in the past . . . and from what you said above, even the present.  However, I do not think the Orthodox Church would order such a slaughter, a tyrant would.  Some of the stories may be propaganda by those who did the killing.  Typical: blame it on someone else. I’m not saying this happened, just that might have happened so that the finger of guilt might be pointed at someone else. 

"Thousands of the bodies were buried in mass graves. US aerial reconnaissance film shows the signs of a mass grave being covered by earth-moving equipment. Later many bodies were dug up and moved to more secret burial places."

 

So when we consider what fanatical Muslims are doing in the Middle East, we must remember that the blood of others has been on Christian hands almost since the beginnings of the Christian Church. (That's not taught in Sunday School)

 I don’t know were you go to church, but we do teach this in our congregations when we study the history of religion.  But it is taught in the context of apostate religion and not the biblical Christian church of God.  It just did not happen among the churches of the New Testament.  And, yes, there is a big distinction. 

 

Remember....I come in peace.

As do I. 

 

Thank you for the response. Forgive my tardiness; I've been quite busy. I will try to be brief.

 

Your words convey your strong faith. You are sincere. My antennae, though not as strong as before, can also detect humility. All things in your favor. Still, I hope you won't mind if we 'agree to disagree' on just a few points.

 

Everyone is free to believe what they choose. But to condemn what you call 'the apostate church' (whatever that is) also casts a theological shadow over those who belong to it. Just as they might condemn your flock and others. It's inescapable; yours is one of the over 40,000 sects. And the immutable law concerning a house divided against itself means that your section will also fall. Because, the simple fact remains that Jesus created only ONE Church. 

 

My point is that no one can be absolutely certain that he or she is a 'true' believer in Jesus. Only He can determine that, not any of us, given the human mind's ability to believe in things untrue, as well as the human heart's penchant for evil. I think you will agree that both your fate and mine are in God's hands. 

 

Regarding the massacre of Muslims, you stated:

Such an event could not and world not be sanctioned by Christianity.  The false Christian religions of the world might even order such a slaughter and have done so in the past . . . and from what you said above, even the present.  However, I do not think the Orthodox Church would order such a slaughter, a tyrant would.  Some of the stories may be propaganda by those who did the killing.  Typical: blame it on someone else. I’m not saying this happened, just that might have happened so that the finger of guilt might be pointed at someone else. 

 

No, it was not propaganda. Why the surprise? Jesus said that He didn't come to bring peace but the sword. The history of Christianity is filled with violence. America's Civil War was actually a Christian Civil War in which Christian fought Christian Catholics and Protestants. As was WW I & II. The aforementioned war in Bosnia also involved Roman Catholics. The Heads of those Christian Churches may not have verbally 'ordered' the war, but neither did they speak out forcefully against it nor excommunicate any of the soldiers. Just like there was no large Christian outcry from ANY HEAD of a major denomination when Jews were been exterminated in Germany. (Don't you teach this in Sunday School?)

 

Also, let us not forget how Martin Luther ordered the killing of Jews. So there should be no doubt about the reason for Jews' distaste for Christianity's world view.

 

You posited:

"To try and tie this to Christians is to not understand Christianity.  BIG difference between Christianity and human religions." 

 

My friend, Christianity is a "human religion". All 40+ thousand sects and counting. Man built Christianity with its rituals and dogmas and internal conflicts and wars, as opposed to the Church that Christ founded on the Rock of His reality and His teachings. And the 'gates of hell' did not prevail against it. It remains true and united until the prophecies are fulfilled by His Return. 

 

Why didn't you comment on the fact that the prophecy pertaining to the Jews' Return to their land has been fulfilled? These are the End Times after all. That means that God has done something that you either don't understand or completely disagree with. Hint: those prophecies do not require for ALL Jews to return; God never forces anyone to do something against their will. 

 

Regarding the Trinity, you stated:

Concerning the Godhead’s relationship and how it all works together, who knows.  My post was to give a very simple answer to a question I was ask: Why do people believe that Jesus is God?  It was not to show the relationship that each had to the other.  I would not be so arrogant as to think that I had the answer to things that cannot be answered.  Volumes of books have been written on the subject. 

Since the inquiry can from someone of the Jewish faith, I elected to use passages from the Old Testament that were used by the inspirited writers of the New Testament as referring to Jesus.  Those passages indicate that the Lord of the OT is also the Lord (Jesus) in the NT.  These were limited in discussion, but the implications for Jesus to be God are very real. 

 

I believe that both the Jews and other Christians can show you another perception of God that is also based upon biblical scripture. It's important to be exposed to other perceptions. How else can one get a better understanding of Jesus' reality? 

 

 

Peace.

Edited by Wayfarer
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Thank you for the response. Forgive my tardiness; I've been quite busy. I will try to be brief.

As I read back through these posts, I am sure that there are those who would not consider our post “brief.”  But you and I know that what we are discussing cannot be accomplished with pithy statements rooted in opinion.  Thus we do give time to explaining what we mean in our post without becoming tedious to other readers. 

 

Your words convey your strong faith. You are sincere. My antennae, though not as strong as before, can also detect humility. All things in your favor. Still, I hope you won't mind if we 'agree to disagree' on just a few points.

 I think these posts assume the agreeing to disagree position of the writers on this thread.  And there are readers who don’t post who disagree with everything written here.  But it is good to write so that others will read and, hopefully, participate with us. 

Everyone is free to believe what they choose. But to condemn what you call 'the apostate church' (whatever that is) also casts a theological shadow over those who belong to it. Just as they might condemn your flock and others. It's inescapable; yours is one of the over 40,000 sects. And the immutable law concerning a house divided against itself means that your section will also fall. Because, the simple fact remains that Jesus created only ONE Church. 

I agree, there is only ONE church or body.  Scripture is clear on that point.  I believe that that church is the church of God or Christ, the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, and it is His church not mine.  In making that statement means that any group outside the church is condemned, for salvation is only found within Christ.  The church is made up of those who are saved by the blood of Christ.  Only the Lord is the “Keeper” of the “Book of Life” and knows all of those who are “enrolled.” But He has given us instructions of how to get our names written in that book.  He is also given us instructions of worship, living, and work within the kingdom of God. 

If one knows how to have their sins removed and how to come back into fellowship with God, then the rest can fall into places as we walk by the directions of the Holy Spirit. 

The condemnation and judgment remains in the hands of the Lord.  My responsibility is to teach and preach Christ.  If an individual is offended by my preaching of truth, then I do not change my preaching and compromise truth.  And yes, truth can be known and preached.  I will change what I believe IF I can be shown I am in error.  I hold to no human creed.  I never have.  No one needs to hold to the creeds of man.  The creeds leave out too much or they include things not contained in Scripture.  Therefore, I have only one authority left to me that contains the instruction from God, the Bible.  Understand that I am not excluding God as THE Final Authority.

 

My point is that no one can be absolutely certain that he or she is a 'true' believer in Jesus. Only He can determine that, not any of us, given the human mind's ability to believe in things untrue, as well as the human heart's penchant for evil. I think you will agree that both your fate and mine are in God's hands. 

Then it is your opinion that not one person can have any assurance that they are Christian!?  Can’t agree with that at all.  How would or could any Christian have hope?  But I can have assurance and hope.  Certainly our fate is in the hands of a Living God, but He has told us what we need to do to have eternal life.  Did He then lie to us?  “The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.  And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.  He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.  These thing I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you many know that you have eternal life” (1Jno 5:10-13). 

God did not make His word so difficult that we could not know how to enter into fellowship with Him! 

I do think that if one believes that salvation is based upon our works; then we will have a problem doing everything and understanding everything that God has commanded.  But our salvation and membership in the body of Christ is NOT determined by what we do, but what He did to save us. 

 

Regarding the massacre of Muslims, you stated:

Such an event could not and world not be sanctioned by Christianity.  The false Christian religions of the world might even order such a slaughter and have done so in the past . . . and from what you said above, even the present.  However, I do not think the Orthodox Church would order such a slaughter, a tyrant would.  Some of the stories may be propaganda by those who did the killing.  Typical: blame it on someone else. I’m not saying this happened, just that might have happened so that the finger of guilt might be pointed at someone else. 

 

No, it was not propaganda. Why the surprise? Jesus said that He didn't come to bring peace but the sword. The history of Christianity is filled with violence. America's Civil War was actually a Christian Civil War in which Christian fought Christian Catholics and Protestants. As was WW I & II. The aforementioned war in Bosnia also involved Roman Catholics. The Heads of those Christian Churches may not have verbally 'ordered' the war, but neither did they speak out forcefully against it nor excommunicate any of the soldiers. Just like there was no large Christian outcry from ANY HEAD of a major denomination when Jews were been exterminated in Germany. (Don't you teach this in Sunday School?)

The passage you sited from Matthew 10 does not teach that Christians are to take up the sword or war against the world!  Read the context.  Jesus is talking of how the disciples would be persecuted even from their own family and friends.  When someone confesses Jesus as Lord, they can expect the “sword” and not “peace.”  The “sword” is the “sword” of persecution against the saints and not the saint taking up the sword against his family or friends.  When Peter took up the sword in the garden and cut off the ear of the high priest’s slave’s ear, Jesus told him, “Put you sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.”  Peter at that time was trying to protect Jesus from being taken and put to death.  The use of the passage is invalid in saying that Jesus was justifying the killing of others.  It does not.

I don’t know where you got your information, but the Civil War was NOT a Christian War!  There may have been Christians on either side, but they were fighting a secular war.  Because there are Christian fighting for their country does not mean that the wars have anything to do with Christianity.  I do know that some feel they are fighting for the freedom of religion, which is a portion of the US Constitution, but that does not make the conflict Christian any more than it makes it a Jewish War or a Muslim War. 

You are correct in saying that the religions of the world should be speaking out against the horrible slaughter of the citizens of any country, or the extermination directed at any religion.  All religions should let their voice be heard.  Christians and religious groups should do what they can to stop such hatred.  And yes, we do teach that is what Christian should be doing.  We want the church to be heard.  (Actually I have plans to speak of the Syrian atrocity and the use of gas against civilians and children in my next two Bible classes.  It doesn’t matter if it was done by the Syrian government or by rebel groups, it was wrong.  My personal feeling is that all war is stupid and wrong headed. All wars need to be stopped.  But I know that that is not going to happen because evil must be addressed and destroyed.  The way I try to destroy evil is the preaching and teaching of Christ; it is a battle of the mind rather than the physical killing of the individuals.)

 

Also, let us not forget how Martin Luther ordered the killing of Jews. So there should be no doubt about the reason for Jews' distaste for Christianity's world view.

And, Martin Luther was totally wrong and sinned greatly against God.  His actions and sermons that he preached against the Jewish people reflected the intolerance in Germany society in his day and not the teachings of Christ. Many individuals today, who claim to be Christian, seek the death of all Muslims.  They do so mainly out of retaliation to the persecution, death, rape, and murder that the radical elements of Islam have inflicted on their own people as well as other religious groups.  It is not right and no amount of justification by person calling for the death and dismembering is not from Christianity or the Bible. 

 

You posited:

"To try and tie this to Christians is to not understand Christianity.  BIG difference between Christianity and human religions." 

 

My friend, Christianity is a "human religion". All 40+ thousand sects and counting. Man built Christianity with its rituals and dogmas and internal conflicts and wars, as opposed to the Church that Christ founded on the Rock of His reality and His teachings. And the 'gates of hell' did not prevail against it. It remains true and united until the prophecies are fulfilled by His Return. 

Christianity, the church of Christ, the church of God is not of human origin.  It was Christ who established, built, and rules the church.  It was build upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets of the first century.  The Scriptures (Bible) is the teaching and creed of the saints.  It was started on the Day of Pentecost and continues until today.  It is not a part of the sects and churches of man, religions made after their own desires and creeds.  It is this church that I was added to when I by faith in Christ, repented and was baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Spirit to indwell me.  At that point Christ added me to His body.  I have no connection with denominations or human religions.  Nor should anyone.  The church is the only body that will be saved at the coming of Christ. 

 

Why didn't you comment on the fact that the prophecy pertaining to the Jews' Return to their land has been fulfilled? These are the End Times after all. That means that God has done something that you either don't understand or completely disagree with. Hint: those prophecies do not require for ALL Jews to return; God never forces anyone to do something against their will. 

I will here.  The prophecies of concerning Israel have been fulfilled in Christ.  All spiritual blessings are found “in Christ.”  Those of Israel, the Jews can be saved in the same way as all Gentiles are saved, by faith and obedience to Christ.  The Jewish people will only be blessed if they believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and repent of sins and are baptized into Christ.  This is explained throughout the NT, but especially in the Book of Romans. 

We have been in the “last days” since the first century.  But each day we get closer and closer to “the last DAY,” which will be “the day of Judgment.”  That day could have come yesterday. 

 

Regarding the Trinity, you stated:

Concerning the Godhead’s relationship and how it all works together, who knows.  My post was to give a very simple answer to a question I was ask: Why do people believe that Jesus is God?  It was not to show the relationship that each had to the other.  I would not be so arrogant as to think that I had the answer to things that cannot be answered.  Volumes of books have been written on the subject. 

Since the inquiry can from someone of the Jewish faith, I elected to use passages from the Old Testament that were used by the inspirited writers of the New Testament as referring to Jesus.  Those passages indicate that the Lord of the OT is also the Lord (Jesus) in the NT.  These were limited in discussion, but the implications for Jesus to be God are very real. 

 

I believe that both the Jews and other Christians can show you another perception of God that is also based upon biblical scripture. It's important to be exposed to other perceptions. How else can one get a better understanding of Jesus' reality? 

I’m sure they can.  It is a very complicated study.  But one thing is clear in the Scripture:  God is Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit.  How that works is a something secret that will remain with God. 

 

 

Peace.

God Bless.  Heading for bed now and should not have stayed up this late. :wave:  :peace:

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God had a mama?

Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” The Virgin Mary is the holiest of all people born and the only person ever to be counted worthy to contain the eternal. As the hymns recount, her womb was more spacious than the heavens and the milk of her breast fed the Son of God. God is humble, humble enough to have a human mother.

What was written  in Isaiah is true. But the remaining statement is a trick to enslave people to worship Mary. No declaration was made in the Bible that Mary is the "holiest of all the people born". Nothing in the Bible also teaches to worship a person (like Mary), not even the angels. We all need to be biblical especially nowadays. Lots false preacher today. It is only thru the Bible we can discern who among the preachers today speaks the truth.

 

Matthew 11:11

Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

-This is our Lord Jesus Christ's pronouncement pertaining to John the Baptist

 

Luke 11

27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

- Lord Jesus Christ corrected the woman's statement regarding Mary, speaking of "blessedness"

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As I read back through these posts, I am sure that there are those who would not consider our post “brief.”  But you and I know that what we are discussing cannot be accomplished with pithy statements rooted in opinion.  Thus we do give time to explaining what we mean in our post without becoming tedious to other readers. 

 

I think these posts assume the agreeing to disagree position of the writers on this thread.  And there are readers who don’t post who disagree with everything written here.  But it is good to write so that others will read and, hopefully, participate with us. 

 

I agree, there is only ONE church or body.  Scripture is clear on that point.  I believe that that church is the church of God or Christ, the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, and it is His church not mine.  In making that statement means that any group outside the church is condemned, for salvation is only found within Christ.  The church is made up of those who are saved by the blood of Christ.  Only the Lord is the “Keeper” of the “Book of Life” and knows all of those who are “enrolled.” But He has given us instructions of how to get our names written in that book.  He is also given us instructions of worship, living, and work within the kingdom of God. 

 

If one knows how to have their sins removed and how to come back into fellowship with God, then the rest can fall into places as we walk by the directions of the Holy Spirit. 

 

The condemnation and judgment remains in the hands of the Lord.  My responsibility is to teach and preach Christ.  If an individual is offended by my preaching of truth, then I do not change my preaching and compromise truth.  And yes, truth can be known and preached.  I will change what I believe IF I can be shown I am in error.  I hold to no human creed.  I never have.  No one needs to hold to the creeds of man.  The creeds leave out too much or they include things not contained in Scripture.  Therefore, I have only one authority left to me that contains the instruction from God, the Bible.  Understand that I am not excluding God as THE Final Authority.

 

Then it is your opinion that not one person can have any assurance that they are Christian!?  Can’t agree with that at all.  How would or could any Christian have hope?  But I can have assurance and hope.  Certainly our fate is in the hands of a Living God, but He has told us what we need to do to have eternal life.  Did He then lie to us?  “The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.  And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.  He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.  These thing I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you many know that you have eternal life” (1Jno 5:10-13). God did not make His word so difficult that we could not know how to enter into fellowship with Him!

 

[READ MY RESPONSE]

 

Peace.

God Bless.  Heading for bed now and should not have stayed up this late. :wave:  :peace:

 

Nelg, I appreciate not only the nature of this conversation but the sincerity of your words. You must know, however, that you are at a disadvantage, because I am intentionally not informing you of the scale and scope of my personally beliefs. This forum is not the place for that kind of extensive dialogue. However, as you can see, I can state my perceptions and opinions of yours.

 

I will say, however, that my beliefs begin with the impossibility of any human being able to comprehend the reality of Jesus, let alone God and the Holy Spirit. And they end with the fact that any attempts to base one's faith on a personal 'understanding' of the Holy Bible is fraught with both peril and the already proven possibility of error. As proof, there is only ONE Holy Bible just as there is only ONE true Church. Yet, again, there are not only over 40,000 exegetically distinctive Christian sects, each one claims 'true' knowledge of the Bible’s contents. I am not judging, but you and your 'denomination' are also complicit. 

 

IMHO, there are at least four fundamental reasons for this highly confused state of Christianity. I must admit that I can't help but place you among them:

1. The human mind is and will always be inherently limited in its attempts to understand the ways and reality of its Creator -- the Father. Therefore, it can't fully comprehend the reality of the one whom He sent -- Jesus. Those limitations also apply to Christian (and Jewish) understandings of Abraham, Moses and all the Old Testament prophets. 

2. Generally speaking, Christians have not accepted these innate limitations. With an arrogance that only human beings can display, we have constructed theologies and ideologies and proclaimed them the reality of God and Jesus. Despite the many relevant hard lessons within the Holy Bible that warn us against such pride, and despite Jesus saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions…”, we still believe that we KNOW how God and His self-identified Son view those who are not Christian. You, Nelg, have also made this mistake. This leads to the next point.

3. There are many things in the Holy Bible that simply cannot be comprehended, because the Books are sealed. Do you believe this? It’s possible, but, so far, your words do not indicate that you do. But if the Holy Bible is true (I believe it is) then the realm of Christianity, germanely, is in a prideful state when its actual true state is one of helplessness and, therefore, totally dependent upon God’s incomprehensible mercy, grace and compassion. 

4. All of the above is generally rejected by Christian scholars. Most still claim to know what the prophecies mean, despite the books being sealed. This proves that the below prophecy has also been fulfilled, among others:

 Luke 21:34-36

“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

“For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always…”

 

Nelg, I will address your understanding of the Church and its 'violence' in another post.

 

Thanks

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You all waste you time arguing over this. Bottom line is......

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth". 1 Corinthians 2:13

The Holy Spirit that dwells in every born again believer teaches us the things of God. Without the Spirit of God people are unable to learn much about Him and His ways. We believers can do our best to teach the lost and we should, although it's not through man's wisdom that they will come to any real understanding of who God is, but through His Holy Spirit.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually didcerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

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Got it.

You gotta be a lawyer to get to heaven

Cause the everyday joe sure as hell wont understand a word you both have said. 

Its wonderful that you two theologians are so gifted.

But not so for most the masses.  

 

It amazes me how many people try to make this so complicated. Jesus spoke about the word of God having no effect because of the traditions of men. It was never intended to be so complicated. Paul summed it up in one sentence in the 16th chapter of Acts.

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

When I read this it I don't see any of the chants or beads or ceremonies that man has decided is also required.

 

Roadrunner

 

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It amazes me how many people try to make this so complicated. Jesus spoke about the word of God having no effect because of the traditions of men. It was never intended to be so complicated. Paul summed it up in one sentence in the 16th chapter of Acts.

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

When I read this it I don't see any of the chants or beads or ceremonies that man has decided is also required.

 

Roadrunner

 

 

+1

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It amazes me how many people try to make this so complicated. Jesus spoke about the word of God having no effect because of the traditions of men. It was never intended to be so complicated. Paul summed it up in one sentence in the 16th chapter of Acts.

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

 

When I read this it I don't see any of the chants or beads or ceremonies that man has decided is also required.

 

Roadrunner
 

+1, Roadrunner

 

 

Tripphood said:

You all waste you time arguing over this. Bottom line is......

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth". 1 Corinthians 2:13

The Holy Spirit that dwells in every born again believer teaches us the things of God. Without the Spirit of God people are unable to learn much about Him and His ways. We believers can do our best to teach the lost and we should, although it's not through man's wisdom that they will come to any real understanding of who God is, but through His Holy Spirit.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually didcerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

RESPONSE TO TRIPPHOOD:

We all must remember that those words and the entire Gospel were meant for the first believers...the first hearers. They were spoken to a people under the influence of Judaism and its emphasis on 'the Law', as well as the many beliefs in what we now know as 'false' Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods. That was the context, the social and religious milieu at that time.

 

As for the future (today), Jesus spoke differently in the Book of Revelation. Remember, He was also speaking 'primarily' to Christians, His followers. He foretold many things, only one of which is the godless state of human belief leading up to and entering the End Times.

 

You seem content in your level of faith. You use biblical passages to confirm that you are saved. So be it!  But tell me what this means; is it possible that Jesus is speaking about you:

Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Get the point? We must all be careful about how we proclaim our faith. These few verses should suffice for telling us that there should never be any smugness or superiority associated with belief in God.

Edited by Wayfarer
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Romans 10
New Living Translation (NLT)


10 Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

Salvation Is for Everyone
 

For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;
    it is on your lips and in your heart.”

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”
16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. 18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have:

“The message has gone throughout the earth,
    and the words to all the world.”

19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said,

“I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation.
    I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.”

20 And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying,

“I was found by people who were not looking for me.
    I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”

21 But regarding Israel, God said,

“All day long I opened my arms to them,
    but they were disobedient and rebellious.”

 

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Romans 10

New Living Translation (NLT)

10 Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

Salvation Is for Everyone

 

For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;

    it is on your lips and in your heart.”

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”

16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. 18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have:

“The message has gone throughout the earth,

    and the words to all the world.”

19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said,

“I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation.

    I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.”

20 And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying,

“I was found by people who were not looking for me.

    I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”

21 But regarding Israel, God said,

“All day long I opened my arms to them,

    but they were disobedient and rebellious.”

 

-

 

Really, after rereading your post I still cannot get your main point.

 

What questions or issues are you addressing?

 

Are you simply expressing your faith in Jesus?  

 

What does your post have to do with the biblically stated fact (in my previous post) that neither you nor any other Christian can be certain of salvation?

 

Or are you simply condemning the Jews for not believing in Him?

 

Seriously.....

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