What's God got to do with It ?

[Nelg]

Well that is a pretty all encompassing "they", so I'd say its mistaken to put everyone who disagrees with you in one group where either you are right or they are right.  But I'll just use my own view, which is atheism.  If I am right then this life is all there is and all the wars and grief caused by various religions trying to impose their views on others claiming there is some other life certainly has taken a great deal away from this life in suffering and wasted effort all for no purpose (not that I am claiming religions, even if their premise is wrong, don't also do good in the world, but just that they also do bad).

 

I don't care about your soul as I don't think souls exist  But I care about you, I want you and everyone to have a good life.

Skeptic, the bolded statement is a "bold" and false statement.  You may think that it is true, but it is far from being true.  Wars and fighting come from sinful lusts for power and greed and have nothing to do with Christianity.  The conflicts by ANY religion are misguided, wrong, and totally against the teaching of Christ and the apostles. Certainly religions created and propagated by man do cause a lot of problems in the world.  I despise their actions as well, but they are not the church of the Lord or His kingdom.  The methods of evangelism (sharing the gospel) was never by the sword, never by coercion, never by force; if so, it is not of God! Yes, the saints will excitedly present the reasons for the hope that is within them.  We will persuade with all the skills we possess, but once the reasons have been presented it is up to the hearer to either accept Christ as Savior and Lord, or reject Him as a delusion and myth.  Not one time did Christian ever place a knife to the throat or gun to the head of a hearer and tell them that they would be killed if they did not accept.  We may tell them that if they continue in unbelief they will be lost; that's about as close to "imposing" we would get. The kingdom of God and saints in the kingdom, Christians, will never knowingly cause another suffering and pain.  

I think you have been fed a lot of material from opponents of Christianity that is laced with falsehood, as well as history from false Christianity.  That's reason Christians encourage unbelievers to take the time to study the Bible and the teachings of Christ.  Perversions of His teachings have taken place, counterfeits are always around and many people are taken in by their corruptions.  

Be careful what you hear.  Check it out before you make a decision.  Bold untruths reflect badly upon you and ignorance is never bless.

[skeptic1138]

Skeptic, the bolded statement is a "bold" and false statement.  You may think that it is true, but it is far from being true.  Wars and fighting come from sinful lusts for power and greed and have nothing to do with Christianity.  The conflicts by ANY religion are misguided, wrong, and totally against the teaching of Christ and the apostles. Certainly religions created and propagated by man do cause a lot of problems in the world. 

This is just the true Scotsman fallacy.  All the bad things done in the name of Christianity isn't (according to you) "real" Christianity.  Even if that is true, it doesn't change my point that religion has caused much harm in the world, and if its all false anyway, it was all for nothing.

 

I did not get into how one might choose what to think is true in my post, but will now.  I don't reject the existence of gods due to the bad things religions have done (or the good things) but due to simply seeing no evidence that its true.  The hypothesis that gods and religions have all been created by man fits the data very well while the hypothesis that some god actually exists does not fit very well.  So, until that situation changes, I accept the first hypothesis as the best explanation of the data.

[Nelg]

What evidence would you accept as valid?  

[skeptic1138]

What evidence would you accept as valid?  

It would be very difficult given how much there is on the other side, but applying the same criteria we use for evidence of anything in the world.  Evidence that anything supernatural has ever happened.  Note that I have the same reaction to people claiming there are aliens have probe the human parties, or that ghosts exist etc.  I'm looking for evidence acceptable to science.

 

Everything we know about the universe shows things going from the simple to the complex (with the input of energy of course) yet religion posits that the first entity is in fact the most complex, that the foundation of the universe is an intelligent being yet who is composed of nothing on which to "host" that intelligence.  The entire concept of such a being is fraught with inconsistencies.  Yet the idea that this is the case due to humans making it all up, provides a quite workable explanation I think.

 

I'm happy to have this discussion (I've had many :-), but I don't want to hijack the thread from the OP.

[ponoboy]

some of my worst customers have been the ones that praise GOD 

 

they take longer too pay , they complain  more 

 

the easiest customer i have dealt with are the gays 

 

some of the hardest i have dealt with are the asians , but always pay on time when the job is done

[You're so rite. I'm contractor in Hawaii. The only people who ever ripped me off were churches. They think I should DONATE MY TIME. That's just not happening. Edited May 25, 2013 by Markinsa
Fixed Quote Box

[ponoboy]

skeptic;  All I have to say is RIGHT ON.

[Maggie123]

 As far as a "halo(?)." I often have people who what to hang me with it.

I was a little harsh.  My apologies. I know your are a "thinker." I just don't agree with some of your "thinking."  That's not a slam or criticism of you personally, but of your opinions.   

 

Fine Nelg... just don't fall in love with yourself.

 

I really don't know that many people that want to hang you with a "hallo"... sorry humility is a trait.

[Denarius Maximus]

 Why do some people to say that the R.V. is  even associated to some  kind of spiritual intervention. I.M.O. this is a solid investment. It's based on almost  an unreal amount of natural resources. God is  an explanation for the things we can't explain. The oil,gas,gold,water is there,It's REAL

Revelations 17:1-18 is why!

 GOD is the provider of all things! 

Here's something for you to think on ponoboy. As real as those commodities are the Dinar is still worthless. That's real ! Thanks for your post and blessings to you...

[ponoboy]

I beg to disagree, Your wrong on both points. First, the dinar is NOT worthless. I can get today what I paid for it. Point two. Who pays your rent?

[Nelg]

It would be very difficult given how much there is on the other side, but applying the same criteria we use for evidence of anything in the world.  Evidence that anything supernatural has ever happened.  Note that I have the same reaction to people claiming there are aliens have probe the human parties, or that ghosts exist etc.  I'm looking for evidence acceptable to science.

 

Everything we know about the universe shows things going from the simple to the complex (with the input of energy of course) yet religion posits that the first entity is in fact the most complex, that the foundation of the universe is an intelligent being yet who is composed of nothing on which to "host" that intelligence.  The entire concept of such a being is fraught with inconsistencies.  Yet the idea that this is the case due to humans making it all up, provides a quite workable explanation I think.

 

I'm happy to have this discussion (I've had many :-), but I don't want to hijack the thread from the OP.

 

I’m in agreement that we should not hijack this thread.  However, I think that has already occurred.  Discussing the evidence of belief in God is a far cry from questioning what “God” has to do with our speculative adventure with the IQD.  The question assumes that God excises and is actively involved in what we are doing.  A point that you would you would totally reject; and, to some degree I reject that as well.  

 

I will accept, for now, your bases of evidence. However, we can discuss the meaning of “evidence” and “science” when we establish a forum for presentations. 

 

Forums like DV are poor formats for extensive argumentation.  The most anyone does here (me included) is to write quick snippets of opinion without the development of foundational arguments to support their assumptions.  Plus, if the post is over three paragraphs it is usually too long for most people to read. People are wanting to hear about the dinar and not length dissertations on the "existence of God." 

 

I will be happy to debate the reasons for my belief in God, and in the beginning statements I will attempt to define my meaning of “faith” so that you can understand what I mean by belief or faith in something. 

 

I would like to hold off our discussion until I return at the end of June.  I am busily preparing to take a group of people to the jungles of Ecuador to do some work at a new clinic our family is building.  The next few days I will only have time to “drop by” DV and post short statements of opinion. 

[Maggie123]

I beg to disagree, Your wrong on both points. First, the dinar is NOT worthless. I can get today what I paid for it. Point two. Who pays your rent?

 

Good Questions.

 

   

[skeptic1138]

I’m in agreement that we should not hijack this thread.  However, I think that has already occurred.  Discussing the evidence of belief in God is a far cry from questioning what “God” has to do with our speculative adventure with the IQD.  The question assumes that God excises and is actively involved in what we are doing.  A point that you would you would totally reject; and, to some degree I reject that as well.  

 

I will accept, for now, your bases of evidence. However, we can discuss the meaning of “evidence” and “science” when we establish a forum for presentations. 

 

Forums like DV are poor formats for extensive argumentation.  The most anyone does here (me included) is to write quick snippets of opinion without the development of foundational arguments to support their assumptions.  Plus, if the post is over three paragraphs it is usually too long for most people to read. People are wanting to hear about the dinar and not length dissertations on the "existence of God." 

 

I will be happy to debate the reasons for my belief in God, and in the beginning statements I will attempt to define my meaning of “faith” so that you can understand what I mean by belief or faith in something. 

 

I would like to hold off our discussion until I return at the end of June.  I am busily preparing to take a group of people to the jungles of Ecuador to do some work at a new clinic our family is building.  The next few days I will only have time to “drop by” DV and post short statements of opinion. 

Sure, no problem and thanks for your work in Ecuador!

[umbertino]

Quote

I am busily preparing to take a group of people to the jungles of Ecuador to do some work at a new clinic our family is building. 

End Quote

That's fantastic, Nelg.... I'm personally grateful to you for this.... Thanks for your work.....Wish you the Best.

[ponoboy]

Good Questions.

 

   

Mahalo magie.

[Francie26]

......and, who gave them firewater and took away their land and life?

Nothing lasts forever. And if we don't get rid of Obama soon, we're not going to be here as a nation much longer, either.

[Francie26]

I won't get into the religious aspect of this, but wanted to comment about the "unreal amount of natural resources".

 

Oil and gas, check and check.  Lots of that and its easy to get and of high quality.  But water and gold?  According to a number of articles I've seen Iraq (like much of the world) has been pumping its aquifers faster than they are being refilled.  Here is a great map showing global water resources and the iraq region is in red.  So I don't see Iraq as an exporter of fresh water.

 

As for gold I've seen numerous guru claims that soon gold will eclipse oil in terms of revenue, but I don't find that to be credible.  If you run the numbers that would mean that Iraq has more gold than the entire rest of the world combined which just does not make sense geologically.  More over if this were true, gold deposits must be very common there.  Yet despite folks living in the region for perhaps ten thousand years, they have not found any of it until now.  It just doesn't wash.  But oil and gas are enough for Iraq's economy to do very well.

oops!!  That is not a map. 

[Francie26]

I have read about the Universe, from where we are outward in all directions, clear past the last star. It is difficult to imagine how vast it is. And how magnificent!  This past December, we shifted from one sky sign to another, from the Age of Pices to the Age of Aquarius, and when we did, it was because the earth is set in a slant that causes an enormous wobble that takes about 5000 years to complete, and which moves our night sky to a new vista.  This last time (last December) was even more rare because our Earth was in direct alignment with the sun and the center of our galaxy.  Each planet is made up of its own components, each unlike any of the others. The variety out there is as vast as the Universe, itself. And with all our exploration, and all that science can thus far discern, there is no other place in the Universe quite like our own small, beautiful blue ball, Earth. I can't read all of this, the very enormity of it, the very richness, the very singularity of our home planet, and geometric precision of every smallest part of it in order for us to even exist, without believing in a Divine Creator.  That might not be enough proof for others, but if proof is required, that will do it for me. Oh, and the fact that we live, we breathe, we walk around and make pronouncements as though we know the mind of God is also another small indicator. lol

[George Hayduke]

I have read about the Universe, from where we are outward in all directions, clear past the last star. It is difficult to imagine how vast it is. And how magnificent!  This past December, we shifted from one sky sign to another, from the Age of Pices to the Age of Aquarius, and when we did, it was because the earth is set in a slant that causes an enormous wobble that takes about 5000 years to complete, and which moves our night sky to a new vista.  This last time (last December) was even more rare because our Earth was in direct alignment with the sun and the center of our galaxy.  Each planet is made up of its own components, each unlike any of the others. The variety out there is as vast as the Universe, itself. And with all our exploration, and all that science can thus far discern, there is no other place in the Universe quite like our own small, beautiful blue ball, Earth. I can't read all of this, the very enormity of it, the very richness, the very singularity of our home planet, and geometric precision of every smallest part of it in order for us to even exist, without believing in a Divine Creator.  That might not be enough proof for others, but if proof is required, that will do it for me. Oh, and the fact that we live, we breathe, we walk around and make pronouncements as though we know the mind of God is also another small indicator. lol

From William Peter Blatey's 'Ninth Configuration':

Col. Vincent Kane: "In order for life to have appeared spontaneously on earth, there first had to be hundreds of millions of protein molecules of the ninth configuration. But given the size of the planet Earth, do you know how long it would have taken for just one of these protein molecules to appear entirely by chance? Roughly ten to the two hundred and forty-third power billions of years. And I find that far, far more fantastic than simply believing in God."

 

Capt. Cutshaw: "I tried, Sir, see the stars... so cold... so far... and so very lonely. Oh so lonely. All that space. Just empty... space. And so far from home. I've circled round and round this house... orbit... after orbit. Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like, never to stop. And circle lone up there, forever. And what if I got there. Got to the moon. And couldn't get back. Sure... everyone dies... but I'm afraid to die alone, so far from home. And if there's no god, then that's really... really... alone."

[skeptic1138]

oops!!  That is not a map. 

Oops is right!  My apologies.  Here is what I meant to past into that link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/08/aquifers_archive.jpg

[skeptic1138]

From William Peter Blatey's 'Ninth Configuration':

Col. Vincent Kane: "In order for life to have appeared spontaneously on earth, there first had to be hundreds of millions of protein molecules of the ninth configuration. But given the size of the planet Earth, do you know how long it would have taken for just one of these protein molecules to appear entirely by chance? Roughly ten to the two hundred and forty-third power billions of years. And I find that far, far more fantastic than simply believing in God."

 

Capt. Cutshaw: "I tried, Sir, see the stars... so cold... so far... and so very lonely. Oh so lonely. All that space. Just empty... space. And so far from home. I've circled round and round this house... orbit... after orbit. Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like, never to stop. And circle lone up there, forever. And what if I got there. Got to the moon. And couldn't get back. Sure... everyone dies... but I'm afraid to die alone, so far from home. And if there's no god, then that's really... really... alone."

One might question if a fiction film writer/director, no matter who skilled in that profession, is really the best source for scientific information.

[George Hayduke]

One might question if a fiction film writer/director, no matter who skilled in that profession, is really the best source for scientific information.

True, one may pose that question but in doing so without fully vetting the writers bona fides may be limiting a possible scientific resource.

[skeptic1138]

True, one may pose that question but in doing so without fully vetting the writers bona fides may be limiting a possible scientific resource.

Scientific resources are peer reviewed journals.  By definition that is where scientists publish their work.

[hoosier1470]

Well...Glory Be To God!!!! Jesus is Lord!!! Praise His Holy Name Forever!!

[umbertino]

Well...Glory Be To God!!!! Jesus is Lord!!! Praise His Holy Name Forever!!

If God is the Almighty and he's the one  supposedly  making everything happen for a reason.. Then  the mere existence on Planet Earth of more than just one religion can only be interpreted as a sign of His Will there had to be more than one religion.

And since there are also those who do not believe in any religion then there's another sign of his will .

Edited May 29, 2013 by umbertino

[Tripphood]

I'm posting without reading the responses past mid way of the first page and I will not respond to another but simply post my own belief.

When I made the decision to give my life to God, I traded a life of mediocrity and happenstance for a life led by "Abba Father", my Daddy God, who leads me and guides me in all things and all decisions including financial ones but the key is that I have to first ask for his guidance. He cares for me, he wants me to thrive and to live an abundant life. I'm not saying a life free of problems and hard times because we all have those from time to time but when I have them my Father God is with me and he keeps me and brings me through those times. ( I had to add that because there is a misconception that if you are a Christian or become a Christian then you won't have any problems......WRONG)

I believe God the Father wants good things for His children but He is not a genie in a bottle.