CAN JANE FONDA BE FORGIVEN? JANE APOLOGISES ????

[parmenio]

Jane Fonda’s latest apology for her infamous trip to North Vietnam — which earned her the notorious name “Hanoi Jane” — is still too little, too late for many Americans who say they can never forgive the Academy Award-winning actress.

Newsmax readers flooded us with comments about Fonda’s recent appearance on the Oprah Winfrey Network in which she lamented: “I made one unforgivable mistake when I was in North Vietnam, and I will go to my grave with this.”

‘Unforgivable Mistake?’

“What a disgrace to our nation,” one doctor from Key Largo, Fla., told us. “She should be totally forgotten and never show her face in public again.”

Rex, from Orange, Texas, said: “I don't believe a word she says. She will always be Hanoi Jane as far as I am concerned.”

The 75-year-old star, who won an Oscar for her portrayal of a shaggy-haired hooker in “Klute,” was photographed smiling and singing with North Vietnamese soldiers as she sat on an anti-aircraft gun in 1972.

She told the program “Oprah’s Master Class” the event happened on the last day of her visit to the war-torn country when she tired. She also insisted the gun she was shown holding was not operable.

Not everybody believes that.

“Her story gets bigger and bigger,” Eugene from Greenacres, Fla., said. “Now the gun didn’t work. How would she know …”

Phyllis from Bridgewater, N.J., told us: “Jane Fonda is and always has been a spoiled, self-centered seeker of fame and adulation. She has never cared about anyone but herself — and [she] betrayed the men and women who fought and died for her comfort.”

Many Newsmax readers said Fonda, the daughter of Hollywood legend Henry Fonda and ex-wife of CNN founder Ted Turner, should still face charges for her alliance with North Vietnam.

“No more ‘song & dance’ with Hanoi Jane,” said Robert, from Beverly Hills, Fla. “She should be tried, convicted, and dealt with accordingly. The Germans learned that war crimes never expire.”

T.J. from Clovis, Calif., said “Ms. Fonda can say anything she likes NOW. If she thinks the passage of time will render her less odious to those of us who remember how she gave aid and comfort to the enemy, I say think again, Benedict Arnold Fonda!”

Several readers slammed Fonda for a widely-circulated rumor that she passed to the Viet Cong the Social Security numbers and other information about American prisoners of war, allegedly resulting in them being beaten and tortured.

Fonda has strenuously denied this story and war veterans groups, who decry her visit to North Vietnam itself, have also discredited it.

Some believe Fonda is trying to atone for her behavior as she grows older and reflects on life. But it’s doubtful she’ll ever heal, what are too many, still open wounds.

“She was a traitor then and it will not change,” said Kathy from Cleburne, Texas. “She should have thought of that before we lost so many friends, husbands and fathers.”

A San Francisco commenter said: “There is nothing that this traitor can do or say to change her anti-war, anti-American views. Her history on the Vietnam conflict is well documented and the facts do not change some 40 years later. She should have been sent to prison to rot.”

But not all of those who weighed in were unsympathetic to Fonda.

“Jane Fonda was the Dennis Rodman of her time. But how many times does she have to apologize for her sins?” Dan from Garden City, N.Y., said. “It happened when I was 2 years old, and maybe we can let her off the hook because she was anti-blood lust, and that is how we should live.”

Marty, from Fort Myers, Fla, said: “God bless you, Jane!! I knew you were not Hanoi Jane as you were portrayed, but the real American I know. You have done much for the U.S. and always will.”

© 2013 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

WHAT SAY YOU ?????

Edited April 5, 2013 by parmenio

[gymrat76541]

Nope, no forgiveness here. Even if she was a BABE back in the day!

[billjr]

NO, once a traitor always a traitor PERIOD!

Edited April 5, 2013 by billjr

[Patty B]

NO! NO! NO!

She was a traitor!

My cousin was killed in Vietnam

while she was siding with the enemy!

 

She will always be remembered

as "Hanoi Jane" and that's the way it

should be!

Edited April 5, 2013 by Patty B

[10 YEARS LATER]

Jane Fonda Traitor. Don't give a damn how much she snivels & cries & whines. TRAITOR  !!!

[dog53]

A traitor is a traitor is a traitor

It don't wash off.

Like Benedict Arnold , Mata Harri, John Walker lindh

It is her legacy and it will be forever in the annals of history.

Wow what a great present for the grandkids huh.

[Heavyduty053]

Look folks I am a vet also and I remember what she did but I am also a Christian and I forgive her. The scriptures say that he who will not forgive his brother for transgressions, there will be no forgiveness for you before the Father. IF you consider yourself to be even halfway a believer in God you might want to reconsider this. Anyone that asked forgiveness should be given it by another human being......It would be a sad time when you step before the Lord and he has no forgiveness for you of something you did.....not preaching just telling you what the scriptures says.

Jane Fonda’s latest apology for her infamous trip to North Vietnam — which earned her the notorious name “Hanoi Jane” — is still too little, too late for many Americans who say they can never forgive the Academy Award-winning actress.

Newsmax readers flooded us with comments about Fonda’s recent appearance on the Oprah Winfrey Network in which she lamented: “I made one unforgivable mistake when I was in North Vietnam, and I will go to my grave with this.”

‘Unforgivable Mistake?’

“What a disgrace to our nation,” one doctor from Key Largo, Fla., told us. “She should be totally forgotten and never show her face in public again.”

Rex, from Orange, Texas, said: “I don't believe a word she says. She will always be Hanoi Jane as far as I am concerned.”

The 75-year-old star, who won an Oscar for her portrayal of a shaggy-haired hooker in “Klute,” was photographed smiling and singing with North Vietnamese soldiers as she sat on an anti-aircraft gun in 1972.

She told the program “Oprah’s Master Class” the event happened on the last day of her visit to the war-torn country when she tired. She also insisted the gun she was shown holding was not operable.

Not everybody believes that.

“Her story gets bigger and bigger,” Eugene from Greenacres, Fla., said. “Now the gun didn’t work. How would she know …”

Phyllis from Bridgewater, N.J., told us: “Jane Fonda is and always has been a spoiled, self-centered seeker of fame and adulation. She has never cared about anyone but herself — and [she] betrayed the men and women who fought and died for her comfort.”

Many Newsmax readers said Fonda, the daughter of Hollywood legend Henry Fonda and ex-wife of CNN founder Ted Turner, should still face charges for her alliance with North Vietnam.

“No more ‘song & dance’ with Hanoi Jane,” said Robert, from Beverly Hills, Fla. “She should be tried, convicted, and dealt with accordingly. The Germans learned that war crimes never expire.”

T.J. from Clovis, Calif., said “Ms. Fonda can say anything she likes NOW. If she thinks the passage of time will render her less odious to those of us who remember how she gave aid and comfort to the enemy, I say think again, Benedict Arnold Fonda!”

Several readers slammed Fonda for a widely-circulated rumor that she passed to the Viet Cong the Social Security numbers and other information about American prisoners of war, allegedly resulting in them being beaten and tortured.

Fonda has strenuously denied this story and war veterans groups, who decry her visit to North Vietnam itself, have also discredited it.

Some believe Fonda is trying to atone for her behavior as she grows older and reflects on life. But it’s doubtful she’ll ever heal, what are too many, still open wounds.

“She was a traitor then and it will not change,” said Kathy from Cleburne, Texas. “She should have thought of that before we lost so many friends, husbands and fathers.”

A San Francisco commenter said: “There is nothing that this traitor can do or say to change her anti-war, anti-American views. Her history on the Vietnam conflict is well documented and the facts do not change some 40 years later. She should have been sent to prison to rot.”

But not all of those who weighed in were unsympathetic to Fonda.

“Jane Fonda was the Dennis Rodman of her time. But how many times does she have to apologize for her sins?” Dan from Garden City, N.Y., said. “It happened when I was 2 years old, and maybe we can let her off the hook because she was anti-blood lust, and that is how we should live.”

Marty, from Fort Myers, Fla, said: “God bless you, Jane!! I knew you were not Hanoi Jane as you were portrayed, but the real American I know. You have done much for the U.S. and always will.”


© 2013 Newsmax. All rights reserved.



WHAT SAY YOU ?????

[Slaydadea]

In 40 years, you asked a 30 year year old who Jane Fonda was. By then, the history record will most likely make her out to be a hero. Kinda like John Kerry. As always, "Just my opinion", sorry Shabs, It seemed to fit. Hope you don't mind.

[psdon]

TRAITOR  TRAITOR TRAITOR  TRAITOR...   I am a VN vet  100% service connected Vet    Jane Fonda you can go F&%K off you TRAITOR  

[LIBoy]

More Christian hypocrisy????

Many on here love to talk about their Christian values but when it's time to put their money where their values are, they deny someone forgiveness. Am I missing something?

 

'To err is human, to forgive divine.'

 

Are those just words or do they actually mean something? 

[dog53]

More Christian hypocrisy????

Many on here love to talk about their Christian values but when it's time to put their money where their values are, they deny someone forgiveness. Am I missing something?

 

'To err is human, to forgive divine.'

 

Are those just words or do they actually mean something? 

 

Bullshat Lib don't even go there. Tell that to the grunt who humped his a$$ through the jungle in the rain swatting bugs as big as birds. Watching his buddy get gutted by a booby trap. or rotting away in Hanoi hilton for 5 years wishing you could die but just ain't that freaking lucky. Walk a mile in these men's shoes THEN you might have the right to make that statement . Its real easy to forgive Lib when you don't have anything that needs to be forgiven

[smee2]

I have often wondered, on this gun-toting, dinar holding, hate mongering, supposedly Christian site, which group would emerge the most vociferous if it ever came down to it. 

 

So far the posts in this thread certainly make it abundantly clear that it is the very unChristianlike members who hate, and keep hating, and spread the word to hate, who are the most vocal in their reaction ... which is totally unChristian. 

 

So many of our "Christian" site members hate so much, and hate so many people, and hate so actively  ... all I can really say is ... How DARE you call yourselves "Christian". I do not presume to tell anyone what God might "think" or "do" as response to something like this ... but if there is a God, and if He has feelings for His "children", He cannot be proud of those of you who use His name in describing yourself, and then live a life so full of hate.

 

smee2

[dog53]

I have often wondered, on this gun-toting, dinar holding, hate mongering, supposedly Christian site, which group would emerge the most vociferous if it ever came down to it. 

 

So far the posts in this thread certainly make it abundantly clear that it is the very unChristianlike members who hate, and keep hating, and spread the word to hate, who are the most vocal in their reaction ... which is totally unChristian. 

 

So many of our "Christian" site members hate so much, and hate so many people, and hate so actively  ... all I can really say is ... How DARE you call yourselves "Christian". I do not presume to tell anyone what God might "think" or "do" as response to something like this ... but if there is a God, and if He has feelings for His "children", He cannot be proud of those of you who use His name in describing yourself, and then live a life so full of hate.

 

smee2

 

To be honest with you Smee I didnt think this was a christian site. I thought it was a dinar site.

Just like theft, burglery, murder, arson, fraud, Being a traiter is punishable by law. Hell lets just let all the criminals go tell them its all right we forgive you.  Come on smee one day 9-11 will be along time ago. it makes it none less wrong with age.  Unfortunitly its Mz fondas lot. A cross she will have to bare.  Let god forgive her I wont

[LIBoy]

Bullshat Lib don't even go there. Tell that to the grunt who humped his a$$ through the jungle in the rain swatting bugs as big as birds. Watching his buddy get gutted by a booby trap. or rotting away in Hanoi hilton for 5 years wishing you could die but just ain't that freaking lucky. Walk a mile in these men's shoes THEN you might have the right to make that statement . Its real easy to forgive Lib when you don't have anything that needs to be forgiven

Dog....You have not a clue who I am, where I have been and what I have done. 

My original response was aimed at the Christian belief that "To err is human, to forgive divine".  Nothing else.  If you practice true Christianity, it does not matter what the sin was it only matters that a person is asking to be forgiven for a sin they have committed.  God has forgiven men who have killed and mutilated children for game.  He has forgiven people who have maimed and destroyed the lives of others.  He has forgiven people for autrocities that we could not even begin to fathom.  So are we supposed to be so ego centered that we feel we can not forgive a woman who made some very bad choices and said some very bad things? 

I don't know what brand of Christianity you practice but my God teaches me that if a person is truly sorry and genuinely asks forgiveness for a sin they have committed, who am I to refuse them?  To do so would be a claim that I am greater than God.  Sorry, but THAT is the place that I am not going to go.

[LIBoy]

I have often wondered, on this gun-toting, dinar holding, hate mongering, supposedly Christian site, which group would emerge the most vociferous if it ever came down to it. 

 

So far the posts in this thread certainly make it abundantly clear that it is the very unChristianlike members who hate, and keep hating, and spread the word to hate, who are the most vocal in their reaction ... which is totally unChristian. 

 

So many of our "Christian" site members hate so much, and hate so many people, and hate so actively  ... all I can really say is ... How DARE you call yourselves "Christian". I do not presume to tell anyone what God might "think" or "do" as response to something like this ... but if there is a God, and if He has feelings for His "children", He cannot be proud of those of you who use His name in describing yourself, and then live a life so full of hate.

 

smee2

Great post Smee.  I agree with you completely.  Many folks here wear their Christianity like a suit.  They put in on when they are in a pius frame of mind and want to revel in their love of God.  Then they take it off when it's time to rip into something because it goes against their own personal beliefs.  True Christian tolerance and understanding is in very short supply. Yes, this is a dinar website.  Am I supposed to only act like a Christian when I am in church or on a Christian based website?

[dog53]

Dog....You have not a clue who I am, where I have been and what I have done. 

My original response was aimed at the Christian belief that "To err is human, to forgive divine".  Nothing else.  If you practice true Christianity, it does not matter what the sin was it only matters that a person is asking to be forgiven for a sin they have committed.  God has forgiven men who have killed and mutilated children for game.  He has forgiven people who have maimed and destroyed the lives of others.  He has forgiven people for autrocities that we could not even begin to fathom.  So are we supposed to be so ego centered that we feel we can not forgive a woman who made some very bad choices and said some very bad things? 

I don't know what brand of Christianity you practice but my God teaches me that if a person is truly sorry and genuinely asks forgiveness for a sin they have committed, who am I to refuse them?  To do so would be a claim that I am greater than God.  Sorry, but THAT is the place that I am not going to go.

 

Yes our God is a forgiving god I agree with you 100% BUT I am not god I am a sinner just like you. I hope in the end he will forgive me of my trespasses.  Its all about choice and I choose to not forgive this women who turned her back on this country. I am not saying that its right I am saying thats how I feel. But for you to wag your finger at a vet when you have not been even close to what he has been through is wrong. Its easy for you to forgive this women you were not there so step up on your pedestal and look down upon us sinners who can't forgive. Yeah thats also very christian like. 

Great post Smee.  I agree with you completely.  Many folks here wear their Christianity like a suit.  They put in on when they are in a pius frame of mind and want to revel in their love of God.  Then they take it off when it's time to rip into something because it goes against their own personal beliefs.  True Christian tolerance and understanding is in very short supply. Yes, this is a dinar website.  Am I supposed to only act like a Christian when I am in church or on a Christian based website?

 

Oh how great thou art 

[Rayzur]

I'm a vet of a different time period and war. There's no way I can really put myself in the shoes of my brothers and sisters who served in Vietnam. There were a lot of thing screwed up about that war, particularly how we treated our returning war vets. Its just my opinion, but I think the vets of Vietnam.... unlike returning veterans of any other war, were treated horribly... denied vital medical care, shuffled off into the back rooms of history, and silenced in hopes they would be forgotten as the US tried to forget that war.... Look how long it took the government to acknowledge the damage of Agent Orange. The care given by the VA back then still echos the horrors of a third world infirmary into present day. IT was so bad, that Congress had to appropriate billions to overhaul it finally in 1986....Years after our returning vets needed them....

And while it may not count for much, I do want to thank all the VN vets who came before me. Because of you, we learned as a country how not to treat the men and women returning from war. Because of you, I came back to a country who thanked and appreciated me as an individual, whether or not they agreed with the war. Because of you, people were able to separate me and my service to this country, from their political opinion about whether or not I should have been there. Because of you I get care at the VA that is second to none.  You Vietnam Vet guys.... its because of you, that a country changed in its regard, treatment, and appreciation  of its vets, and no vet will ever again have to suffer what you did, in serving this country. Thank you. Your service changed my life as a vet 

 

As far as Jane goes? I can't speak to the experience of Vietnam vets. As a war vet however, one of my core beliefs is that I fought and fight for the freedom to express our opinions.... whether or not I agree with them. And there are many I do not agree with, and some I despise,  yet I serve their freedom the same as those I admire. It's not my place to be asked to forgive her, as I was not there. However, as a military war service connected veteran, its not my place to deny her that.

Some of us make horrible choices and decisions, yet few of us have to suffer doing so in eyes of the world.  And of course, the media all the way around, the propaganda machine, the NVN propaganda and agendas and needs and history all create a revisionist history as it was being made, as it was recorded and as it is remembered. I suppose its in those moments its up to me to be clear about the choices I make, why I am there, and my beliefs about committing my life to military service. At the end of the day, I know who I am and why, apart from any other person's participation in that same moment of history. 

 

Here is what Jane has to say:

 

http://on.aol.com/video/how-jane-fondas-vietnam-controversy-taught-her--empathy-is-revolutionary--517730577

 

 

And here is what VNV Peter Brush, now a Historical Librarian at Vanderbilt University, and fairly objective,  had to say about it:

 

 

Hating Jane: The American Military and Jane Fonda

©2004 Peter Brush

Searching the web makes it evident that Vietnam veterans have strong opinions of Jane Fonda. These opinions range from low to very low, from calls to have her shot, or hung from a tree to $2.95 "Boycott Jane Fonda American Traitor *****" bumper stickers. ¹ Over 90,000 websites are returned by a "Jane Fonda and traitor" search. Not only veterans but also active duty military personnel hold these opinions. An entire company of Naval Academy midshipmen, born years after Fonda spoke against the war in Vietnam, respond to a plebe's shout of "Good night!" and "Good night, Jane Fonda!" with a loud "Good night, *****!" ²This article examines the American military hatred of Jane Fonda.

It wasn't always that way. Fonda's life got off to a very good start. A descendent of Revolutionary War patriot Samuel Adams, Jane is the daughter of Henry Fonda, one of America's most esteemed actors. ³ Bursting with subsequent irony is her 1962 Pentagon award of "Miss Army Recruiting of 1962." Jane accepted the title festooned in red, white, and blue ribbon, and praised the American military in her acceptance speech. ⁴ 1971 saw her complete the rise to the top of her profession with a Best Actress award for the movie Klute. The following year Fonda made the Gallup Poll list of women most admired by the American people. ⁵ Even as late as December 1979, according to a Roper Poll, Fonda was considered one of the most important women for what "she has done to or for this country or the world." ⁶

Fonda became a peace activist in 1970. She organized an antiwar review that toured U.S. military bases with Hollywood personalities including **** Gregory and Donald Sutherland. She drew large crowds speaking at churches and universities across the country. She traveled to Hanoi, carrying mail to American prisoners of war. While in North Vietnam Fonda observed the effects of the American bombing campaign, made several live and taped radio broadcasts to American military personnel in Vietnam that were broadcast on Radio Hanoi, met with Communist officials, and interviewed American prisoners of war. She supported the Communists (claiming they were democratic, peace-loving patriots) and was critical of the United States (Nixon was "a new-type Hitler" committing "mass genocide" against North Vietnam). ⁷ According to historian Mary Hershberger, the federal government opposed her activism, resulting in Fonda being monitored, harassed, and briefly falsely imprisoned. By the 1990s Fonda's largely positive image ended when claims appeared that her visit to Hanoi resulted in the torture and even death of American pilots held prisoner by the Vietnamese Communists. ⁸

The government claimed Fonda's antiwar activities impacted on the morale of American soldiers in South Vietnam. According to an analysis provided by the House Committee on Internal Security, the declarations Fonda made from North Vietnam during her July 1972 visit shook the stamina of our soldiers. The effect was "tantamount to being wounded;" the resulting psychological casualties were advantageous to America's enemies.

Historian Eric Bergerud provides an example of Jane's morale-busting in Red Thunder, Tropic Lightning, a history of the 25th Infantry Division in Vietnam. An Army lieutenant is interviewed who recalls returning to base camp from a two-week operation only to see "a Jane Fonda protest" on television. ⁹ Novelist and Vietnam veteran Nelson DeMille, speaking from his own experience "as a combat infantry officer in Vietnam" attested "to the fact that Jane Fonda . . . . succeed very well in lowering troop morale" and this fall in morale leads to battlefield deaths. ¹⁰ How valid are these recollections? In 1972, on the Phil Donahue show, Jane Fonda discussed how she became an antiwar activist, noting that "two years ago" she didn't even know where Vietnam was. ¹¹ The lieutenant Bergerud interviewed was in Vietnam in 1966. DeMille served in 1968. Both remember being personally effected by Jane's antiwar activities before those activities took place.

According to Henry Holzer, author of "Aid and Comfort": Jane Fonda in North Vietnam, it was Jane's Hanoi trip that was treasonous, as it worked to undermine the morale and military effort of American soldiers fighting in South Vietnam ¹² (Holzer attaches much less significance to her stateside antiwar activities). However, one can explain the impact of the Hanoi trip on U.S. troop morale with a single word: Vietnamization. 8,744,000 Americans served in the military during the war. Of those, 2,215,000 served in Vietnam. Yet by July 1972, less than 50,000 remained in Vietnam, where their morale was susceptible to manipulation by Fonda. In August 1972 the last US ground combat unit in Vietnam was deactivated. Simply put, Fonda's trip occurred too late to have a sizeable effect on the morale of Americans fighting in Vietnam. ¹³

Internet accounts that describe the torture of American POWs as a result of Jane's Hanoi visit are plentiful. Accordingly, POW pilot Larry Driscoll was forced by his captors to meet with Fonda. His instructions were to tell the famous visitor of the "lenient and humane treatment" he received. Instead, Driscoll spat at her. The camp commandant then beat Driscoll with a wooden club. This beating caused the pilot to suffer from double vision which ended his flying days.

Another story is that of Colonel Larry Carrigan, who spent six years as a POW in the Hanoi Hilton prison. Learning of Fonda's coming visit, Carrigan and others wrote their social security numbers on small pieces of paper. The prisoners were paraded before Fonda. While shaking her hand, each man slipped his piece of paper to her, trusting Jane to get word of their survival back to loved ones in the United States. To their shock, "Jane turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day." ¹⁴

In fact, according to Driscoll and Carrigan, these stories are false. According to former POW and NAM-POW president Mike McGrath, no POWs were killed on account of Jane's visit. According to McGrath, the worst thing that happened to the prisoners was having to listen to Fonda's propaganda broadcasts on Hanoi radio. "It pissed us off, but I doubt you can call that ‘torture.'"¹⁵ This is not to say American pilots were always treated well by their Communist jailers in North Vietnam. A small minority of them were tortured, but the mistreatment ended in 1969, years before Jane Fonda's involvement in the antiwar movement and trip to Hanoi. ¹⁶

Fonda's celebrity status attracted large crowds when she spoke at rallies. She also provided generous financial support to antiwar groups such as Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Winter Soldier Investigation. As a result Fonda was investigated by the FBI, the U.S. Army, the Secret Service, and the National Security Agency. These investigations included opening her mail and tapping her telephone, examining her finances, sending informants to her meetings, and providing reports to President Nixon and National Security Advisor Kissinger. According to one White House source Fonda got about the same investigative treatment as Soviet leader Brezhnev. ¹⁷

Although Fonda may be unique in how she is remembered for her antiwar activities, those activities were not particularly unique. Over 200 Americans visited Hanoi in the 1965-1972 period. At least 82 made broadcasts on Radio Hanoi. Meetings between American activists in Hanoi and POW pilots were common. These activists toured North Vietnam investigating bomb damage and met with American POWs. They were opposed by the federal government, who sought to prohibit travel to North Vietnam and harassed returning travelers. ¹⁸ They have been largely forgotten, while Fonda is remembered as a traitor and enemy conspirator.

While in Vietnam Fonda visited an anti-aircraft gun emplacement. A cultural group sang songs and the crowd applauded. Her hosts offered her a seat on the gun, which she cheerfully accepted. The crowd applauded her, and she smiled and waved in return. The occasion was festive, not tactical. The area was not being bombed and the gun was not firing. The event was filmed. Several frames were distributed as single images. These photos are described as showing Jane pretending to shoot down American planes, or as evidence of her encouraging North Vietnamese to shoot down American planes. ¹⁹ In a 2000 magazine interview Fonda said she would go to her grave regretting the antiaircraft photo. ²⁰ No doubt many veterans hope she undertakes this journey sooner rather than later.

The Pentagon monitored Fonda's Hanoi radio broadcasts and gave reporters details of her trip. Although many other activists had gone to Hanoi, made radio broadcasts, and met with American prisoners, Jane Fonda's trip was the first that raised charges of treason. At the request of the House Internal Security Committee (who wanted to prosecute), the Justice Department investigated her conduct in North Vietnam. Their conclusion was she had violated no U.S. laws, including the law intended to punish anyone who "in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the naval or military forces of the United States." ²¹

According to Hershberger, the notion that Fonda committed treason and caused pilots to be tortured began after Operation Homecoming, the return of U.S. prisoners after the 1972 signing of the Paris Peace Accords. The White House and Pentagon worked hard to make heroes of the prisoners and their return was a major public relations event. The event had to be managed because many of the pilots had made statements while in captivity that were critical of the war. Pilots who hoped to continue with their military careers felt the need to convince Pentagon officials that their conduct in North Vietnam had not been inappropriate under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Some of the pilots who had criticized the war insisted they only met with antiwar activists and made antiwar statements because of torture or threat of torture by their captors. Even though it turned out to be untrue that antiwar activists had a causal role in the torture of prisoners, the connection between American prisoner suffering and peace activists stuck, especially when the claims of the pilots were publicly challenged by Fonda. ²²

In 1988 Jane Fonda publicly apologized on television to American Vietnam veterans for her thoughtless and careless behavior and the hurt she caused. ²³ This had little effect on veterans' opinion. The United States was unable to meet its goals in Vietnam. Had we won, Jane's trip would be no more remembered than that of Joan Baez or Ramsey Clark. A war lost wants scapegoats. As the image of the shootings at Kent State will always be an icon for the antiwar movement, the image of Jane in Hanoi will always be an icon for the anti-antiwar movement.

1. See http://knossos.shu.edu/HyperNewsV/get/vp/protest/7/8/2.html. "Jane Fonda deserves to stand before a firing squad and shot, or hung from a high tree !!!". Also, http://www.no-mac.com/site/639008/product/BM-006 , No-Mac Military. ↑
2. Carol Burke, Camp All-American, Hanoi Jane, and the High-and-Tight : Gender, Folklore, and Changing Military Culture(Boston, Mass. : Beacon Press, 2004), p. 177.↑
3. "Lady Jane" by Alfred Aronowitz in Saturday Evening Post, March 23, 1963, vol. 236, no. 11, pp. 22-23.↑
4. Christopher Anderson, Citizen Jane : The Turbulent Life of Jane Fonda (NY: Henry Holt, 1990), p. 93.↑
5. "Pat Nixon Tops Admired List" by George Gallup in The Washington Post, January 1, 1973, p. A12.↑
6. Roper Report 80-1 released January, 1980. Fonda placed fourth after Rosalynn Carter, Barbara Walters, and Mother Teresa.↑
7. Henry Holzer and Erika Holtzer, "Aid and Comfort" : Jane Fonda in North Vietnam (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 2002), pp. 64-65.↑
8. Mary Hershberger, "Peace Work, War Myths: Jane Fonda and the Antiwar Movement" in Peace and Society, Vol. 29, No. 3 & 4, July 2004, pp. 549-550.↑
9. Eric M. Bergerud, Red Thunder, Tropic Lightning : The World of a Combat Division in Vietnam (NY: Penguin Books, 1993), p. 258.↑
10. Don O'Briant, "Book Notes," in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, February 3, 2000, p. E2.↑
11. Phil Donahue Show, September 1972, Dayton, Ohio, discussed in article "JANE FONDA & TOM HAYDEN" at Special Forces List webpage http://teamhouse.tni.net/janebio.htm accessed 11/1/2004.↑
12. Holzer, "Aid and Comfort", p. 62, 65.↑
13. 8,744,000 figure from Statistical Abstract of the United States, 2003 (Washington, Government Printing Office), Table 523, p. 348. 2,215,000 figure from Michael Clodfelter, Vietnam in Military Statistics (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 1995), p. 245. 50,000 figure from Juan Vasquez, "U.S. plans to Scale Down Its Command in Vietnam," New York Times, June 23, 1972, p. 2.↑
14. See for example http://www.namvets.com/Reading/jane_fonda.htm, accessed 11/5/2004.↑
15. Burke, Camp All-American, pp. 181-183.↑
16. Hershberger, "Peace Work," p. 569.↑
17. Ibid., p. 554.↑
18. Holzer, "Aid and Comfort", pp. 23-27. Mary Hershberger, Traveling to Vietnam : American Peace Activists and the War(Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press, 1998), p. xv, xviii. Hershberger, "Peace Work," p. 563.↑
19. For example, http://www.whitakeronline.org/122901.htm and http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=195402.↑
20. Noted in Burke, Camp All-American, p. 180.↑
21. Sanford Unger, "U.S. Won't prosecute Jane Fonda" in The Washington Post, August 26, 1972, p. A2. Georgia Congressman Fletcher Thompson is quoted as saying of her visit "Declared war or undeclared war, this is treason."↑
22. Hershberger, "Peace Work," pp. 565-566.↑
23. The text of Fonda's apology is available on the Nuke Jane Fonda webpage at http://www.raskys.com/07.html.↑

 

 

From what I can tell, its seems to be documented that some of the more egregious accusations against Fonda were not true. And in any case, I gotta stick with my core in saying its not my place to deny her that. 

Edited April 6, 2013 by Rayzur

[LIBoy]

Yes our God is a forgiving god I agree with you 100% BUT I am not god I am a sinner just like you. I hope in the end he will forgive me of my trespasses.  Its all about choice and I choose to not forgive this women who turned her back on this country. I am not saying that its right I am saying thats how I feel. But for you to wag your finger at a vet when you have not been even close to what he has been through is wrong. Its easy for you to forgive this women you were not there so step up on your pedestal and look down upon us sinners who can't forgive. Yeah thats also very christian like. 

 

Oh how great thou art 

If you feel that by following my Christian principles and incorporating them into every aspect of my life is "looking down at people" that is your perogative.  That is not how I see it at all and I am sorry you feel that way. 

You again say how I "wag my finger at a vet when you (I) have not been even close to what he has been through".  I'm just curious, how do you know what I have, or have not, been through?  You speak as though you know me yet you know nothing about me. 

 

Have I ever served my country overseas during war time?

Was I a member of the FDNY for eight years and carry over a dozen dead and mutilated children out of burning buildings?

Was I in tower two of the WTC on 9/11/01 and witness first hand the murder of thousands of people?

Did I spend the next two months attending wakes and funerals for over 200 murdered souls and cry while holding their children and spouses as we lowered yet another coffin into the ground?

 

How dare you so blatantly presume to know who I am and where I have been and what I have seen.  Why don't you walk a mile in my shoes and then drop to your knees and thank God that he is still allowing me to breathe and watch my children grow up and hold my wife when the nightmares come, and you bet your a$$ they still come. 

 

Why he has spared me from death time and time again is beyond me.  Why I am still sane in the slightest is beyond me.  That's Gods plan and I guess he'll fill me in when he finally does bring me home. 

 

Jane Fonda wants MY forgiveness?  She's got it. End of story.

[dog53]

As always good post Razor. Its funny how age and knowing your closer to the dirt will bring out the want to be forgave. I know it has with me.

I have family thats bones are still rotting in that jungle. I personally hopes she rots in hell.   

If you feel that by following my Christian principles and incorporating them into every aspect of my life is "looking down at people" that is your perogative.  That is not how I see it at all and I am sorry you feel that way. 

You again say how I "wag my finger at a vet when you (I) have not been even close to what he has been through".  I'm just curious, how do you know what I have, or have not, been through?  You speak as though you know me yet you know nothing about me. 

 

Have I ever served my country overseas during war time?

Was I a member of the FDNY for eight years and carry over a dozen dead and mutilated children out of burning buildings?

Was I in tower two of the WTC on 9/11/01 and witness first hand the murder of thousands of people?

Did I spend the next two months attending wakes and funerals for over 200 murdered souls and cry while holding their children and spouses as we lowered yet another coffin into the ground?

 

How dare you so blatantly presume to know who I am and where I have been and what I have seen.  Why don't you walk a mile in my shoes and then drop to your knees and thank God that he is still allowing me to breathe and watch my children grow up and hold my wife when the nightmares come, and you bet your a$$ they still come. 

 

Why he has spared me from death time and time again is beyond me.  Why I am still sane in the slightest is beyond me.  That's Gods plan and I guess he'll fill me in when he finally does bring me home. 

 

Jane Fonda wants MY forgiveness?  She's got it. End of story.

 

You can forgive lib whoever you want. I do not have a problem with that. And as I presumed you were NOT in vietnam . You are firemen from new york. Thank you for your service lib. You have my utmost respect. BUT being a fireman and being a soldier in wartime there is a difference. Yes in this respect you are a better christian then me and thats really all I can say. Very sorry if I pi$$ed you off.  Again I hope jane fonda rots in hell

[Nelg]

The Word of God does not tell the story of God’s forgiveness without also bringing forgiven people to the challenge of forgiving one another. Just as God tells us to be holy because he is holy (1 Pet. 1:15) and loving because he is loving (1Jno 4:8), so does he call us to be like him in forgiveness. "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ep. 4:32). "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you" (Col. 3:13).

In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave us a manual for Christian discipleship. In one section of that sermon, he gave instruction about prayer. And one of the specific links he made in that prayer between human and divine action had to do with forgiveness. "Forgive us our debts," Jesus told us to pray, "as we also have forgiven our debtors" (Mt 6:12). Of all the things he mentioned in that prayer, this is the only petition he amplified in the immediate context: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Mt 6:14-15).

The point here is not that God is dependent on our handling of a situation before he can act or know what to do. My act of forgiving another does not trigger God’s forgiveness of me. Your willingness to release someone from his debt to you does not thereby put God in your debt. Forgiving someone is neither a prerequisite to nor proof of worthiness for forgiveness, it is a corollary to forgiveness. When I see the terribleness of my own sin, it is easy for me to forgive someone else; so long as I am unwilling to forgive another, I have not taken my own sinfulness seriously.

"But you don’t know what I’ve experienced!" someone wants to shout back. "You don’t know the pain — or shame or acting out or life chaos — that came to me because of what someone did to me, and you have no right to preach to me about needing to forgive that person! Until you’ve walked in my shoes, you have no right to . . ." Or, "How can you or anyone else forgive a traitor like Hanoi Jane!"  "Your a blinking liberal and full of ...!" 

Wait. You’ve misunderstood. I’m not here to judge you for how you feel today. I probably haven’t walked in the shoes of your most awful life experience — any more than you have the means to understand mine. But do you think your the only one that has been betrayed or hurt or had a loved one die in wars!!!  And I’m not about to throw out the tacky "I-feel-your-pain" line that rings so hollow in so many settings these days. My point here is not meant to add to your anguish or to put a layer of guilt on top of it. I want to take you to the subject of forgiving others for your sake. 

The Bible verses already link forgiven-ness and forgive-ness. It's hard, I know.  I have a friend that is 86 years old and he still cannot forgive those he fought in the Pacific Theater during 1941-1945, and that bitterness is hurting him and not his enemy. 

Across years of ministry, I have had occasion to hear some beautiful episodes of forgiveness. I have seen husbands and wives forgive unfaithful mates, parents forgive drug-abusing children, children forgive parents who had abused or molested them. Some of these episodes have resulted in healing and reconciliation. Others have not.

One of the most dramatic stories of forgiveness I have ever read comes via Wellington Boone. [New Man (Jan./Feb., 1997), p. 90.] The story focuses on a blind, 77-year-old man named David McAllister.

More than twenty years ago, McAllister kidnapped ten-year-old Chris Carter, shot him, and left him for dead in the Florida Everglades. The little boy survived somehow, although he was blinded in his left eye by a bullet meant to kill him. In the meanwhile, McAllister escaped. The case went unsolved until the fall of 1996. And it was a guilty conscience rather than new investigative techniques that reopened it.

Bedridden in a Miami nursing home, David McAllister confessed what he had done more than two decades earlier. A 32-year-old Chris Carter learned of the confession and determined to visit the man who had tried to murder him. He did not go in bitterness or to take revenge. He went to pray with McAllister and to tell him about Jesus Christ and what the Son of God had done to transform his own life.

"Nobody could imagine that I would shake the hand that had tried to kill me," Carrier said after the meeting. The victim had gone to his abductor and would-be slayer to deliver the Christian message of forgiveness.

This isn't a Christian site.  It doesn't need to be to do what is right and healing for your personally.  I don't like Hanoi Jane, but IF she has ask for forgiveness, then as a Christian I forgive her.  No, that doesn't mean that we let all the prisoners, murders, rapist, and child molesters out of prison.  And some of those people will need to pay their debt to society by imprisonment or death, but that does not mean they cannot be forgiven.  IF, and that's a big IF, she has come to her senses and truly sincere, then yes, the Christian should forgive her.  The rest of you . . . will probably never understand that.  

[Markinsa]

[willy1der]

Great story nelg. I know from personal experience that when we forgive others that there is healing that takes place. If Hanoi Jane has asked for forgiveness then certainly she should be forgiven. Asking for forgiveness is humbling, but God gives grace to those that humble themselves. I want to pose a few questions to those who claim to be Christian and can't find it in their heart to forgive Jane Fonda. Did Jesus die for her? How does God see her? Is her wrong doings worse than our wrong doings?  As a Christian I am an ambassador of Christ. As His ambassador it is my responsibility to represent Him and His agenda and not my own, I die daily. What were the words that Jesus spoke as they gambled for His clothes at the foot of the Cross?

Edited April 6, 2013 by willy1der

[Markinsa]

Matthew 6:14-15

New Living Translation (NLT)

¹⁴ “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. ¹⁵ But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

[pattyangel]

I may not agree with what Jane did, I may not like her.... but I will forgive her. 

 

Thanks Markinsa, Willy and Nelg for your input. 

[jonjon]

Once upon a time I had charge of three teenage sons.  The eldest had gotten into a great amount of trouble at school.  As I lectured him for his derelict behavior he reverted to the “what would Jesus do” defense.  I quickly assured him that Jesus would forgive him but I wasn’t Jesus. 

 

It seems to me that the people who attack the Christian Faith do so by insulting the believer’s failure to be Christ or to be Christ like.

 

Sadly, some Christians quickly defend the faith with idealistic and impractical biblical quotes that further the proof of the human being not being Christ.

 

If we mortal human being had the ability to be Christ, then He never would have happen.

 

Being a Christian does not make you Christ no more than being an atheist makes you nothing.