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yota691

President says that anybody who works 40 hours a week shouldn't be in poverty.

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sorry about the repeating post... from Iphone, and hit add reply twice before it was posted and moved from my screen.

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Believe me I do understand your way of thinking here. However, which do you think has suffered more? Granted the small business person will be harmed. No doubt about this.

 

BUT

 

The middle class has suffered more. The poor have suffered even more. Our middle class is being reduced to poor at an alerting rate. America has and always will have the rich class. The middle class bears the brunt of our financial burden. If we allow the middle class to slip away we will have what third world countries have - two classes; rich & poor.

 

I don't know about you but America will find itself in revolt if that ever comes to pass. On reflection, I would rather have a minority of small business owners go under than to have the middle class disappear. The lesser of two evils so to speak. I am sure I would feel differently if I was a small business owner.

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Really? Some here just gobsmack me!

 

Guess they don't realize that a great number of mininum wage earners are young single parents, mostly women, thus causing kids to live in poverty.

 

If someone is working 40 hours a week, should they really have to go get foodstamps in order to be able to feed their children?

 

Sometimes they have too, it's NOT a choice. They should have their dignity just as any other working American, with an above poverty wage.

 

Don't tell me they should just "do better"... they are doing the best they can for the time being. The one's who should "do

 

better" are the employers that are hoarding every dime of profit they can get away with. Some would have "sweat shops"

 

right here in the good ole USA if it was allowed.

 

 

Heck, here in Utah waitresses make $2.50 an hour because of the chinzy tips they may or may not get.

 

Why? Because they got away with it by some funky law put through in this state... we have most chains in every little town here.

 

 

YES! Let's by all means keep every dime possible in the corporate pockets, maybe they will get a hole in one and drop a penny on the floor.

Maggie, I had to look up "gobsmack" --  great word !!  For those who may be interested, it means "dumbfounded" or maybe "speechless."  Maggie, ...  ain't no way that you are speechless ...  you always have something to say.  And I liked what you said and canceled out the neg. 

 

As for me, I am on both sides of this argument.  No I am on neither side of this argument.  Actually, IMO, there should not be an argument.  If the corporate government would get the hell out of the way, and if the evil FRS would quit printing fiat money, the people would figure out for themselves what the peoples' labors (and other resources) should be valued at and balance things out with some stability.  Instead, we have to deal with contrived shortages, contrived surpluses, unnecessary controls, ...  oops, I am out of words ...  been gobsmacked ....

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The minimum wage in the state of Texas is a joke. The wage equates to poverty for those that do work  40+ hours per week. I know that. In turn, I think that people should take responsibility for their education and control procreating when they clearly are unable to support a family.

 

I started working when I was 15. I earned $2.90 per hour. I have worked my ass off over the years. I now have a contract accounting business. I specialize in Quickbooks, accounting and payroll tax work. I'm an independent contractor, I call my hourly rate. My client's pay me and never complain. I bill between $45.00 and $100.00 bucks an hour depending on the scope of the work. I have a niche market.

 

My point is that people need to become educated, work hard and move up through the ranks, as I have. Also, don't have children before you can afford to support them.

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The minimum wage in the state of Texas is a joke. The wage equates to poverty for those that do work  40+ hours per week. I know that. In turn, I think that people should take responsibility for their education and control procreating when they clearly are unable to support a family.

 

I started working when I was 15. I earned $2.90 per hour. I have worked my ass off over the years. I now have a contract accounting business. I specialize in Quickbooks, accounting and payroll tax work. I'm an independent contractor, I call my hourly rate. My client's pay me and never complain. I bill between $45.00 and $100.00 bucks an hour depending on the scope of the work. I have a niche market.

 

My point is that people need to become educated, work hard and move up through the ranks, as I have. Also, don't have children before you can afford to support them.

 

I agree 100% Ski.   I think a large part of the problem is these kids get out of collage and think they are going to start at the top and find out quickly not only are they not going to start at the top theres no jobs period. So they take there collage degree and wind up in a taco bell.

Jobs must come first .Only then should we consider raising Min wage .

Also for some having kids is a career

More kids bigger welfare check

Edited by dog53
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The only entity that prospers when you raise the minimum wage is the Government.

 

When the minimum wage goes up so does the cost of every single item we buy for every

day use.

Because all industry has minimum wage workers the inflation that results from the raise alone neutralizes the raise.

 

It does not stop there. Companies that were going to add workers do not because now they can’t afford to.

The overtime that the minimum wage worker depended on to make it through the week

gets cut off and now they bring home less then they did before they got the raise.

 

But it is not bad news for every body the Government gets it’s revenue increase through FICA .

The rest of us get to go home (Stolen line from Phil Robertson)

Happy, Happy, Happy because we supported the raise in minimum wage for the poor people that we just caused to lose money off their weekly income.

 

As Sgt Fury said (unintended consequences)

 

 

 

No Surrender No Retreat and No Compromise 

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Just as a point of reference - Based on a 52-week work year, during which you would work five days a week, eight hours a day, there are 2,080 hours total. The government's definition of poverty is based on total income received. For example, the poverty level for 2012 was set at $23,050 (total yearly income) for a family of four.  The math works out to $11.08 an hour to reach the poverty level as defined here.

 

Just for a little more perspective - a brand new E-1 (Army or Marine private, Seaman, Airman or Coastie) makes $1516 a month. Divide that by 160 Hours a month (but we all know they work a whole lot more than 160 hours a month) - $9.47 an hour. When I was a young private, I used to jokingly tell people I made about $6.50 hour but was always able to make up the rest with my overtime. (The service guys will get that one).

 

I'm just stating facts - and I don't have a crystal ball to see how rasing the minimum wage will effect the cost of living, but I tend to agree that the cost will be passed to consumers. Like KK - I managed a fast food restaurant - and when the minimum wages were increased in 1990, hours for all employees wound up getting cut, and the prices went up.  That's a fact, and there's no argument there.

 

I will say this however - Rayzur is correct.  As a member of the military, in a public forum, while I may not agree with his policies, he is still the Commander in Chief, and is due the respect of his office. I am sworn to obey all lawful (emphasis on LAWFUL) orders of those above and to give them the respect due to their position.  As an NCO of over 28 years of service I take that seriously.  Rayzur just put in perspective the professionalism of all servicemen - or at least what I feel the level of professionalism should  be.  Are we all able meet that? No, but it is something we should strive for.

 

In private, over a beer maybe - that's another thing.  I will voice my opinion - good or bad. I consider myself a thinker. I read - I research - I evaluate.     I reserve the right to agree to disagree. I will debate and defend my positions - and try not to revert to name calling.  One thing I have learned in the military - you totally lose your temper - you lose your logic - you may just lose the battle. 

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I agree 100% Ski.   I think a large part of the problem is these kids get out of collage and think they are going to start at the top and find out quickly not only are they not going to start at the top theres no jobs period. So they take there collage degree and wind up in a taco bell.

Jobs must come first .Only then should we consider raising Min wage .

Also for some having kids is a career

More kids bigger welfare check

My daughter graduated from UTA two years ago. She is on her second job. She now makes 40k plus. She has worked hard and now has her resume in for a position with another non-profit with the potential of a 10k a year pay increase. A college degree and the will to succeed professionally go a long way in our world.

 

Many have children as a career. There are certain tax benefits that follow lousy parents that choose to pump out children without the means to support them. I think we are on the same page regarding the topic. EIC comes to mind for me.

 

Take care Dog. I know that the minimum wage for all states should be increased. I don't think that we will see an increase in the near future.   

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Tom sawyer once said it's better for them to think your a fool than to open your mouth and relieve all doubt

Sarge I am not "programmed". I have eyes to see for myself.

 

"unintended consequences" is what has been programmed by Fox/Corp nuuz. hahahahaa

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He could give a Rat... well, he states this for one Reason.... The Higher the Wage's more Taxes plain and simple!!! It's not about the Better of folks..Geeeezzzz... 

Thanks Yota  You are correct - I have heard of folks getting a little bit of a raise - just enough to put them in a different tax bracket and boom they take home less money -- bummer huh??? +1

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Thanks Yota  You are correct - I have heard of folks getting a little bit of a raise - just enough to put them in a different tax bracket and boom they take home less money -- bummer huh??? +1

Negative much?

 

We all choose our choose our paths in life. Think about it!

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Really? Some here just gobsmack me!

 

Guess they don't realize that a great number of mininum wage earners are young single parents, mostly women, thus causing kids to live in poverty.

 

If someone is working 40 hours a week, should they really have to go get foodstamps in order to be able to feed their children?

 

Sometimes they have too, it's NOT a choice. They should have their dignity just as any other working American, with an above poverty wage.

 

Don't tell me they should just "do better"... they are doing the best they can for the time being. The one's who should "do

 

better" are the employers that are hoarding every dime of profit they can get away with. Some would have "sweat shops"

 

right here in the good ole USA if it was allowed.

 

 

Heck, here in Utah waitresses make $2.50 an hour because of the chinzy tips they may or may not get.

 

Why? Because they got away with it by some funky law put through in this state... we have most chains in every little town here.

 

 

YES! Let's by all means keep every dime possible in the corporate pockets, maybe they will get a hole in one and drop a penny on the floor.

I evened you out maggie...great post!

Sometimes people like this on DV make me doubt the dinar investment - because they are invested. They cannot REASON their way out of a paper bag they are so blinded by hate....

***///

 

FLINT.... you "get it"...... maybe you can take a crack at trying to explain it to some others here.

 

And whilst we agree it is not always a partisan issue, this administration is making it one to be sure.

 

Traditionally the repubs are seen as being too one-sided in favour of business and the dems relish making them the scapegoats for their own sneaky agenda...

 

meanwhile, obummer is holding court in the oval office with unions,

international business concerns and even American businesses all the while telling his supporters how evil the repubs are for not wanting to give the working class stiff a raise.

 

he went so far as to demonize Romney for working hard and portrayed him as demonic for having done so.

and yet we didn't see him going after gorge soros and he's the evil-est cat of all in this!

 

It's sick.  Just pathetic pandering to his masses and they ignorantly fall into the trap....

not their fault because they don't know any better... 

 

just wish they'd DO WORK and educate themselves on the reality and truth of the situation and

target the individuals responsible - not one party over another.

Romney working hard?????LOLOLOL

He ran a corporate hatchet company called Bain Capital that bought struggling companies, fired their American employees and sent their equipment and jobs to China. He made money destroying American companies.

 

And if you knew more than FOX tells you, you'd know the US middle class was BUILT on strong unions - and systematically torn down since 1980 starting with Reagan....

 

Why don't you get some FACTS straight before you "run yur mouth," K?

***///

 

We didn't "ATTACK" anyone.  Stop making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

  You two drama queens are railroading an important topic right off the rails with

all your groundless accusations.

 

You 2 don't like what you hear, so off you go on your accusatory tangents - 

changing the subject --- classic you 2.

 

Here's an order for you -- GROW UP -- both of you.

SARGE

Nobody gives orders around here, you included. And yes, you do attack all the time - FURY - great name for you.

Edited by hame55
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Believe me I do understand your way of thinking here. However, which do you think has suffered more? Granted the small business person will be harmed. No doubt about this.

 

BUT

 

The middle class has suffered more. The poor have suffered even more. Our middle class is being reduced to poor at an alerting rate. America has and always will have the rich class. The middle class bears the brunt of our financial burden. If we allow the middle class to slip away we will have what third world countries have - two classes; rich & poor.

 

I don't know about you but America will find itself in revolt if that ever comes to pass. On reflection, I would rather have a minority of small business owners go under than to have the middle class disappear. The lesser of two evils so to speak. I am sure I would feel differently if I was a small business owner.

 

I think that the challenge I have with your argument is that it seems like you assume that all small business owners are wealthy and therefore rich.  Even using this administrations definition of rich being $250K and up, I suspect that you'd discover a great many small business owners as being in the very middleclass that you are worried about... it is those middleclass, small business owners who employ real people that will be hurt by additional arbitrary raises in pay scales, etc.

I suspect that you may think differently if you were a small business owner and understood the sacrifices that are sometimes made to keep a staff employed... and yours is the line of thought that so many people have bought into.  I attempt to say that respectfully to you.  The argument that came early in this thread about taking out loans and going to college only to discover that your education doesn't mean much in regards to your paycheck is a strawman argument.  The underlying theme is that someone (the student who cannot pay off loans, in this case) is somehow owed something, the entitled mindset, isn't reason enough to punish others.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't have all the answers, but I think politicians and government getting out of the way would go a long way to helping America find it's equilibrium and start on the road to recovery as it always has.  This prosperity will in turn allow more risk-takers to start more businesses, hiring more people and giving raises by choice to those that earn/deserve/justify them.

Destroying the middle class and small business through mindless, arbitrary rules only ensures more pain. 

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***///

 

HAME - we all know what you are......  inconsequential.  no weight.   just hate.  what a colossal bore.

 

Note to TEAM OSG:  put this self-righteous tool on - IGNORE.

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*** I THINK WE ALL NEED TO GET BACK ON TOPIC INSTEAD OF ATTACKING ONE ANOTHER ***

 

For the past 4 workdays, I have a had 5 people working for me to help me get caught up with last year's business.  One girl in particular had screaming data entry skills.  Plus she only needed me to tell her once how to do something.  I told her today that I would be needing everyone until this Friday, and she apologized and said that today was going to be her last day.  I jokingly asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said, "I already have a career."

 

I was taken a little back, and I said "Really, what do you do?"  She said, she was a cosmotologist, and that she couldn't work because of her psoriasis, and it had cleared up and she was going to return to work.  NOW that's what I call someone who doesn't want to sit on there ass and collect a paycheck.  We need more young people like her in this world. :twothumbs:

 

-

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***///

[We were all well out of the fray --- HAME didn't need to be a johnny come-lately and re-ignite a dead fire...]

 

MARK -- In spite of her illness (which can flare up repeatedly) this crack kid was DRIVEN to forge ahead....

 

Good to know there's still that kind of pride, self-worth and work ethic, especially for someone her age.

 

She'll never be a victim of the cycle of dependency so many in the Country have made a way of life.

 

Good for her!   :twothumbs:  We wish her well and every success..! :tiphat:

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Negative much?

 

We all choose our choose our paths in life. Think about it!

hey wait  just a minute - you are mis interpreting  my words --  I did not mean  bummer to  reflect  on  the pres-  many folks use that  word in that way but mine WAS NOT -  I do not  get into bashing  religious or political issues anywhere  anytime  to anyone but myself  if then -   Just so you are clear on that - I was merely stating that the way  the system is set up the mathematics  sometimes move you into another bracket -  I never stated or implied it was a  certain persons fault  Thank you

 

If I had wanted to make a nasty political bash I would have been clear on the name - 

Edited by UNEEK
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This might be an appropriate metaphor.

 

You walk into your living room and look up at the ceiling only to find water leaking down the wall.  You clean it up, spackle it, and paint  the area; making it look like new.  Everything seems fine until it rains again and a new stain appears on the wall in the same spot.  In your ambitious eagerness to fix it again and make it right, you clean it up, spackle it and repaint once more.  This time with speacial paint that won't mold.  But when it rains... it happens again.  OK you say to yourself. And before doing the same cleaning, spackling and painting, this time you remove the old wall board and replace it with new wall board and proceed to fix the area with the water stain again. 

 

For those of you who like to think outside the box, I'm sure you already have figured out that this "cat and mouse" chase is never going to end... until the "root" of the problem is addressed. Go up on the roof and fixing the hole so the water stops leaking in and running down the wall.

 

It seems like the same solutions applied are just going to cause the same results.  I said it before; there is a better way and we are better then that. Believe in each other and we will find it.

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This might be an appropriate metaphor.

 

You walk into your living room and look up at the ceiling only to find water leaking down the wall.  You clean it up, spackle it, and paint  the area; making it look like new.  Everything seems fine until it rains again and a new stain appears on the wall in the same spot.  In your ambitious eagerness to fix it again and make it right, you clean it up, spackle it and repaint once more.  This time with speacial paint that won't mold.  But when it rains... it happens again.  OK you say to yourself. And before doing the same cleaning, spackling and painting, this time you remove the old wall board and replace it with new wall board and proceed to fix the area with the water stain again. 

 

For those of you who like to think outside the box, I'm sure you already have figured out that this "cat and mouse" chase is never going to end... until the "root" of the problem is addressed. Go up on the roof and fixing the hole so the water stops leaking in and running down the wall.

 

It seems like the same solutions applied are just going to cause the same results.  I said it before; there is a better way and we are better then that. Believe in each other and we will find it.

A great post.  The problem with the leaky roof can be fixed by "Raising The Debt Ceiling"   

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Negative much?

 

We all choose our choose our paths in life. Think about it!

 

I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you to a certain extent. I just can't get myself to lump all minimum wage workers into one category as easily as you can. From your posts, it sounds to me like you are more referring to the welfare mothers who use their children only as an excuse to get a larger welfare check each month.

I was raised, along with my three siblings, by a woman who was courageous enough to leave a man who was an unloving and unfaithful spouse. She made the very difficult decision to remove herself and her four kids from the negative unhealthy environment we were growing up in. She worked her fingers to the bone to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads. I assure you we needed every dollar that she was earning.

My mother did not give birth to children without being able to support them and we were not welfare babies. My sisters, brother and I also did not ask to be

put in the financial situation we were in. We did not get to "choose our path in life" at that point.

My point is simply this. There are many different circumstances that put people in situations where they need to work for minimum wage. Some may have done it to themselves. However many others are just trying to get by and keep their families together. Don't those people deserve every possible bit of help they can get? Yes, there are people who will abuse the system and manipulate any given situation to their advantage. However those types of people exist in every walk of life, not just in the case of minimum wage and the honest hard working folks should not be penalized for those people's lack of humanity.

I know there are two sides to every topic.  I just could not sit on my hands and have you generalize people like my mom into the same group as people who have the morals and ethics of a sewer rat. 

I am the man I am today, in part, due to my mother's hard work and dedication to her children.  I learned about work ethic and determination from watching her never give up. Today I make enough money to maintain my main residence here on Long Island as well as a second home on Martha's Vineyard. My children all attend private school and we live a very comfortable life.  In my case, I did not need to go to college in order to become very successful.  Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate of not going to college. I do believe a college education is important and can open up many doors for a young person starting out.  I am simply trying to show that, in my case, it was not the college degree but only the will to succeed and a work ethic instilled in me by a minimum wage earning mother that lead to my financial success.

Edited by LIBoy
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Maggie I call bs, I own a landscape business, snow removal in the winter, we start at 15 an hour. The companies that have a hundred employees working for minimum wage do that to stay in business. Look at target, takes about 100 employees to run a store that size, guarantee the 30 people there o. MW. Are stocking and cleaning, you raise your over head by 50 bucks an hour and boom you loose 6 of those MW. employees, spread the work out and move on, simple economics.

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Problem is women need to stop spreading their legs and having babies when they cant afford them.  How many young parents are on  food stamps? how many had babies out of wedlock and didnt think of their future and their kids future when getting in the bed? how many are only making minimum wage jobs and can barely survive living with their parents.   Theirs no doubt we have HUGE problems.  Also the whole college thing is a complete joke   Most spend their whole lives paying off student loans and in a sea of debt with CC's.  Is their a solution to all this madness i dont know but i am losing hope and i am very thankful i hold dinar lets just say that. Raising Minimum wage and creating more government programs has proved to NOT work for the common man or woman.  There is NO middleclass any longer so theres either living above poverty or your dirt a$$ poor or your super wealthy.

Edited by easyrider
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Obama care has forced most employer's to hire folks to be categorize as Part Time, 30 hr a week with no benefits...So  mark another one up for Obama in changing the reality into talk about 40 hr work schedule. when most folks now work only 30 hrs a week...

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Shabs, thank you sir, very eloquently and precisely stated,  I could not have said it better. And thank you TankDude.  It's very clear that both of you are genuine military and NCOs down to the fiber of your core. I'm sure you both must know that it was an NCO that "raised me" in my early days, and I'd like to take this opportunity to say thank you  :salute:.....and hopefully, have shown that ya done good...    And for those who don't know, behind every single officer including that General you think is great... is the NCO who raised  em up right.... God help us should it ever come to that, but I would be truly honored to stand beside either of you in defense of that which is our country

 

It's my honor Ma'am.  You're a class act and I very much appreciate your well thought out opinions and responses.  

 

GO RV, then BV

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I have taught economics in college. I just want to mention that although raising the minimum wage sounds like a good idea, you have to realize what it will do to the economy as a whole. The backbone of this country is small businesses. For many of these small businesses, to raise the minimum wage for their employees will mean that some of those employees will be laid off. There is only so much money to allocate. 

 

Also, consider that companies will just pass the extra expense on to the consumers by raising prices. It is a vicious circle. In my opinion, wages should be market driven, not government regulated. It is not even constitutional for them to think this is a federal issue!

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