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The end of the GUN CONTROL DEBATE!!


DiveDeepSix
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First off Bamagirl I want to Thank You for not calling me any names your professionalism is much

appreciated.And your right none of us can follow to the T all of the commandments.I am a sinner just like the rest

and can admit I sin but killing another human being is not up to us to decide unless the courts order it

and then they can stand in front of god for there actions.It sure would be nice to be able to look into a mans

heart to know his intentions but we cant.I am a hunter and fisherman as well but I dont need a gun to hunt.

I use a bow.Its more sporting for the game instead of 7mm or 9mm mags with a scope wheres the sport in that?

The range of a bow is not very far so if I miss the arrow doesnt travel far at all.But miss with that overpowered

7mm mag and the bullet could go miles but who cares right?The world we live in today is a far cry from the way

things used to be and with just everyone buying guns these days they will use any excuse to use there guns

on anyone.Just like yourself bamagirl I need my weapon for hunting purposes everyone would say that to keep

there guns.People get mad to easy these days and would take a life in a heartbeat.Not all but most would.So if

they ban guns I would have to say yes all guns.Cant you see how people are these days?pissed off at the world

and obama didnt help things either.Look at the posts made against me in this thread you can see the anger in there words.

take my gun I'll kill you or the ever so favorite you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.Shows people will

do anything to keep a gun but do nothing to keep gods words alive.You dont have to worry about your guns being

taken it will never happen and thats scarry in itself.Rayzur wrote a good article about violent video games its a good read

and that alone should show the mentallity of whats to come with guns.If you whup your kids they will call CPS on you

or buy a gun off the streets and kill you with it just so they can get there way.And its getting worse each day.

sure there are other ways to kill people but it wont be so easy as pulling a trigger and wont have as much firepower

If there were no guns those innocent kids would be alive.I wanted to make friends here and its ashame because I dont

worship a stupid gun I will be like a obama supporter in here and I am sure there isnt anyone here who would have voted

for that country wrecker.Is it so bad that I dont want a gun?I am a good guy and would give my life for anyone in here.

let the debate continue I wont post anymore about them I need some friends.God Bless us all.

Did you actually read thru the article I posted? If you did you wouldn't have made this statement, I'm not calling you names either but the arguments you posted here are weak and disputed directly in my original topic post. Yes a rifle round will travel much farther then an arrow, I use both by the way, but look at the numbers bud, hundreds of thousands of hunters take to the woods every year to hunt and there are very very few accidents. Why don't you look up the amount of deaths related to firearms vs the amount related to gang bangers in the cities using unregistered stolen guns, they are not even remotely similar. Not to mention the mass majority of gun related homicides are with ILLEGAL, one more time ILLEGAL guns, which means they were never purchased legally and registered. So my question is that FACT right there tells you that criminals will have guns regardless if law abiding citizens do or not. I chose to protect myself, my family, my neighbors and friends, you obviously can choose what ever you want, it's your right, but don't infringe on our right to do what we want, that's all we are asking. It's also a stat that the number one weapon used in violent crimes is the human body, 2nd is blunt objects (golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, etc,) 3rd is guns, 4th is edged weapons. So what's next ban baseball bats and golf clubs? Of course not, because RESPONSIBLE citizens use them every day for recreational purposes, sounds just like something else doesn't it? Guns. The bottom line is this whole thing boils down to personal responsibility, something once again a whole generation lacks, but what sense does it make to punish everyone for a few bad apples. Go back and read my entire topic thread and then respond, I'm not being a smart @$$ I just would really like to know why you think this way. I hunt, my wife and kids hunt, my nieces, my parents, my friends, etc. do you know how many accidents we've had and we all use high powered rifles from 30.06 down to .243's? None. My kids started out young with unloaded BB guns, until they were responsible enough with their barrels and actions to load them and moved up from there. All have taken and aced gun safety courses. Why? Because as their parent it is MY responsibility to make sure they take responsibility for their actions and understand exactly what it is they are holding in their hands. IMO people wanting to take guns from everyone are a cop out for horse $#!* parenting, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

Same people deal with their kids driving cars the same way. Nothing irks me more than seeing some punk on his cell phone or texting while driving, my kids know better as it would be the last time they drove until they were old enough to move out.

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Yes a picture is worth a thousand words its just that your picture is incomplete.I am the good guy without a gun

and the bad guys who shoot me will be judged by GOD and his punishment is far worse

than being shot by a punk with a gun.The sooner guns are melted down into plowshares

the better off we shall be.Show a picture of everyone standing there with no guns and who dies then?

God said if you live by the sword you shall die by it.Is god wrong?

There's nothing wrong with guns. There is surely nothing wrong with good people owning guns! This country needs to address the huge problem of mental health issues. Instead of pissing all this money away by supplementing food stamps and welfare checks, we need to fund programs to locate and evaluate potential deranged psychopaths in this country. Your solution of melting down guns would never work because bad people will always find a way to possess & manufacture weapons just as they do drugs. You need to step into reality.

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First off Bamagirl I want to Thank You for not calling me any names your professionalism is much

appreciated.And your right none of us can follow to the T all of the commandments.I am a sinner just like the rest

and can admit I sin but killing another human being is not up to us to decide unless the courts order it

and then they can stand in front of god for there actions.It sure would be nice to be able to look into a mans

heart to know his intentions but we cant.I am a hunter and fisherman as well but I dont need a gun to hunt.

I use a bow.Its more sporting for the game instead of 7mm or 9mm mags with a scope wheres the sport in that?

The range of a bow is not very far so if I miss the arrow doesnt travel far at all.But miss with that overpowered

7mm mag and the bullet could go miles but who cares right?The world we live in today is a far cry from the way

things used to be and with just everyone buying guns these days they will use any excuse to use there guns

on anyone.Just like yourself bamagirl I need my weapon for hunting purposes everyone would say that to keep

there guns.People get mad to easy these days and would take a life in a heartbeat.Not all but most would.So if

they ban guns I would have to say yes all guns.Cant you see how people are these days?pissed off at the world

and obama didnt help things either.Look at the posts made against me in this thread you can see the anger in there words.

take my gun I'll kill you or the ever so favorite you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.Shows people will

do anything to keep a gun but do nothing to keep gods words alive.You dont have to worry about your guns being

taken it will never happen and thats scarry in itself.Rayzur wrote a good article about violent video games its a good read

and that alone should show the mentallity of whats to come with guns.If you whup your kids they will call CPS on you

or buy a gun off the streets and kill you with it just so they can get there way.And its getting worse each day.

sure there are other ways to kill people but it wont be so easy as pulling a trigger and wont have as much firepower

If there were no guns those innocent kids would be alive.I wanted to make friends here and its ashame because I dont

worship a stupid gun I will be like a obama supporter in here and I am sure there isnt anyone here who would have voted

for that country wrecker.Is it so bad that I dont want a gun?I am a good guy and would give my life for anyone in here.

let the debate continue I wont post anymore about them I need some friends.God Bless us all.

Hmm So you think the taking of a animal`s life is a sport. How did you put it

"More sporting" Most People on this forum know that I am a native Indian.

My people have hunted as a way of life for a millennia . To us the taking of any life including

a animal is NOT a sport. No more then one would consider harvesting a field of corn a sport.

When I was a young man raising 4 children I made much meat. One year I watch a young buck

for a whole season. I could tell if left alone he would become a good strong buck and good for the herd.

In his second year he became strong and would often challenge the dominant bucks in the area.

In his third year no buck could match him. He was a fine buck he bred many does. in his 6th year

he had become as nature demands weaker. It became harder and harder for him to drive off

suitors. That year I put a Wooden arrow through his heart and I asked the great spirit.

Let this animal know how much respect I had for him. It truly saddened my heart. But as

with all life it blooms and withers. With all this being said I will tell you that killing that buck

was harder for me to do then to put a bullet through the brains of the animal that killed

those 20 children. You cannot understand that some men are without souls. They are made up of evil

There is no sin in killing them. It is more of a sin that you would kill a animal for the fun of it. For sport as you say.

I`m sure you also use one of these new bows that uses the aluminum arrows or graphite. That will sling

a arrow like a gun. I have used these I know how they shoot and take my word as someone who has

hunted with a true stick these weapons cannot really be called a bow and arrow. They are more like a

vertical crossbow. Please no one take this wrong if it is how you hunt. They make humane kills and I'm all for that.

It`s just the wife and I now so hunting consists of a squirrel and pheasant now and then. Maybe a rabbit if that's what I feel like

eating. My boys are the hunters now and they make much meat. I guess what i'm trying to say here is that you

presume to know how god thinks. That he would think that a creature as beautiful as a deer would have no worth

an OK to kill for sport . But evil men are somehow protected by his grace. I say

BULLSHAT

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Hmm So you think the taking of a animal`s life is a sport. How did you put it

"More sporting" Most People on this forum know that I am a native Indian.

My people have hunted as a way of life for a millennia . To us the taking of any life including

a animal is NOT a sport. No more then one would consider harvesting a field of corn a sport.

When I was a young man raising 4 children I made much meat. One year I watch a young buck

for a whole season. I could tell if left alone he would become a good strong buck and good for the herd.

In his second year he became strong and would often challenge the dominant bucks in the area.

In his third year no buck could match him. He was a fine buck he bred many does. in his 6th year

he had become as nature demands weaker. It became harder and harder for him to drive off

suitors. That year I put a Wooden arrow through his heart and I asked the great spirit.

Let this animal know how much respect I had for him. It truly saddened my heart. But as

with all life it blooms and withers. With all this being said I will tell you that killing that buck

was harder for me to do then to put a bullet through the brains of the animal that killed

those 20 children. You cannot understand that some men are without souls. They are made up of evil

There is no sin in killing them. It is more of a sin that you would kill a animal for the fun of it. For sport as you say.

I`m sure you also use one of these new bows that uses the aluminum arrows or graphite. That will sling

a arrow like a gun. I have used these I know how they shoot and take my word as someone who has

hunted with a true stick these weapons cannot really be called a bow and arrow. They are more like a

vertical crossbow. Please no one take this wrong if it is how you hunt. They make humane kills and I'm all for that.

It`s just the wife and I now so hunting consists of a squirrel and pheasant now and then. Maybe a rabbit if that's what I feel like

eating. My boys are the hunters now and they make much meat. I guess what i'm trying to say here is that you

presume to know how god thinks. That he would think that a creature as beautiful as a deer would have no worth

an OK to kill for sport . But evil men are somehow protected by his grace. I say

BULLSHAT

Great post buddy, and yes I did figure out you were a Native American a long while back when we had a difference of opinions, which turned out to be a misunderstanding of each other's written words. I couldn't agree with your post more. I've taught my kids and feel the same way, if you are going to shoot something you had better be ready to eat it, otherwise don't pull the trigger. Well except crows, I can't stand those, and kill them without mercy, dirty rotten little egg suckers!! :P/> :lol:/> :lol:/> :lol:/> You are right on with the new bows too, I've hunted with the old recurves and actually tried a home made long bow once, my compound is old school and nothing like the new trigger release stuff. The only thing I will say on bows though is with the compounds, especially the new ones, they are so fast and so accurate, that a responsible shooter has much better odds of a clean kill, it really irks me seeing an animal limping around with an arrow sticking out of it from some dumb @$$ who should have taken more time target practicing and waiting for a responsible shot, any weapon is useless and dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't have a clue how to use it. Once again personal responsibility! I don't like to see animals suffer either and will not take a bad shot no matter how big a buck it is. I've taught my kids the same thing, yes we want the meat, but it's also our moral responsibility to make a clean kill. Great post again Dog, my only question for you is how the heck do you draw a bow with your paws? :lol:/> :P/>

+1000 if I could DD6!!

Thanks Bama!! I know your family has been taught the same things! :D

Edited by DiveDeepSix
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Thank You deepdivesix and Dog53 It is good that the good folks do take time to train there families

the right way to shoot a weapon.Both of you make some valid points and I dont have a problem with

either of you owning a gun.I hate to bring personal issues to this forum but my grandmother was

hit in the head in her house and killed by a stray bullet from a .306 from a hunter that wasnt even

hunting.He was just shooting a bunch of junk in his yard and a bullet staryed off some metal and

went into my grandmothers house and killed her.Because we are religeous we didnt press any charges on him.

Dog I am proud to know that you are a indian and your guns should never be taken from you just as the

land was taken from you by our government.

Here is questions that maybe some of you in here might think on:

How many good people are there in this world that are considered good people verses how many bad

people there are?You'll find there are way more bad folks then good.

How do you get guns from the gang people while allowing good folks as yourselves having them?

Could you form a militia and go into bad neighborhoods and just shoot all these gang members on site

if they had guns?

Would crimminals take your holstered gun from you and use it on you as to say a teacher?

How would you know if the person standing behind you is a bad person?

Would god forgive you on judgement day for taking another persons life?

These are just some of the questions I asked myself.

Dog my bow is hand made its a longbow from a indian reservation in oaklahoma.I am proud to own it!

God made the creatures of the earth for us to eat and animals dont have souls so its not just killing as you say.

but I eat what I kill and as god said he loves the smell of cooking meats.(deuteronomy)

Its good to have debates like this one without a bunch of name calling I am just trying to figure out how you

can have guns without the gangpunks having them for crimes against the people.Its not going to be easy!

If guns and ammo were removed from the public even for a year or so until they could get the ones who

dont deserve them off the streets and given large jail terms for violating your rights to own them and use

them in the right manner.As most of you say guns dont kill people, people kill people.But it takes a human

being to operate a gun.Oxymoron? If guns were removed it would'nt be so easy to kill so fast it can still be done

but survival from a differant method of infliction gives one a better chance to survive the attack.

Because there are so many physco's in this world I cant see how you are going to get those guns from the

wicked.Just wait for them to come and then kill them?And then how many would they have killed before they

came to your house?Its hard for me to justify guns at this point for everyone with the crimes being commited

on a daily basis.Bad verses good?I am open for all suggestions and respect all of your posts against me.

I am not a bum I have a powder coating business and did not vote for the wolf in sheeps clothing.I pay my

taxes same as you good folks and dont wish to be catigorized as a puzzywimp or any other names.I am like JOB

and try to follow his god and let him protect me and my family from harm because when its your time to go

its time to go either way.Thank You for your professionalism in this debate and lets try to find a good solution that

works for everyone who wants a gun.But I will tell you this if it comes down to a vote to remove all guns I would vote for it.

So hopefully there is a way we can all prosper in a safe manner in life as we know it.God Bless each and every one of

you for reading my post.Amen.ps I am not perfect but I am work in progress for good.

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By the way Dog53 I really liked your story it made me FEEL just what it takes to kill one of gods creatures.

it squeezed my heart a little and made me feel it.Your a beautiful dog inside and out.I'll always have a spot in

my heart for you and your people.

And to you sxsess you dont deserve to own a gun you have no compassion for anyone who doesnt think like you.

And call me a coward because I dont want to own a gun.Think of it this way at least you dont have to worry about

me coming to your homes and killing you.I dont have a gun.

I guess you would call the man who carries the american flag during battle a COWARD? and he doesnt carry a gun.

That would be me I would lead in any battle and carry our flag and I would'nt have a gun doing it.I would die for my country

because god said be proud of your nation and I am.

Name calling can bite you in the rump when you least likely expect it.

I am a hard core republican and believe in the american dream! liberals dont work and stand in line for free handouts

even god said to the farmer to leave the outside rows of there crops for the poor so they can WORK to get there meal.

God doesnt like a man that doesnt work and they get there just rewards in the end.Just as dog said even the wicked

are somewhat blessed for there works of evil but he knows what his plan is we dont.

I like what Rayzur said in her posts for all of us to come to a rational way to keep your guns.

she writes very well and has some very valid points to her thinking.I love ya rayzur keep up the good works!

Truce everyone? I am a good friend to have.God Bless You all.

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By the way dog53 I dont call killing a sport I said it was more sporting for the game to get away.

Say a deer when I hunt one for food that deer has to come within 30 yards for a descent kill shot

from my bow or I wont take the shot.A high powered rifle can drop a deer from a mile away

and I said whats the sport in that.In other words if you hunt with one of these 7mm mags with a scope

how can you call yourself a hunter?Anyone can shoot like that to kill one.Not to mention what if you missed

with that overpowered meat cooker of a weapon.You will never know where that bullet went to maybe

into another grandmothers house like mine?Look what a high powered rifle does to the meat of your game when it hits

it ruins a big chunk of that meat.So much power that it cooks that area of meat before it hits the ground.

And dog I dont know what god thinks I have read my bible more than 100 times in my life and still reading

it because I get a differant message from it each time I read it.1 hour a day for 3 weeks and I start all over again.

try it sometime and see the message he gives to you.Its awesome!

Is it not ok to use scripture in my post? We need god more than ever these days and I know I am not perfect

am I bad for trying to be a good person and improve my life as he did?Gods words are more powerful than

any gun will be just think about this: Jesus will slay the 200 million man army (china) with red firey abreast

and all the folks that took that ugly tat mark of the beast with the word of god now I ask you what weapon can do this

by ones self? A double edged sword will protrude from his mouth and the word of god kills them all.Awesome!

So you see that the word of god is all I need not a gun.If he wants me he can have me its that easy.

I also respect all religeons as well and there works.If all of us believed in some kind of god would we need guns to protect us?

I know the reality thing again.Try this on for size:Ephesians 6:11-17 Put on the whole armour of god,that you may be able

to stand against the wiles of the evil.For we do not wrestle against fleah and blood,but against principalities,against powers

against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.Therefore

take up the whole armour of god,that you be able to withstand in the evil day,and having done all to stand.

Stand therefore,having put on the breastplate of righteousness and having shod your feet with the preparation

of the gospel of peace; above all,taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the firey darts

of the wicked one,and take the helmet of salvation,and the sword of the spirit which is the word of god.

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the spirit,being watchful to this end with all perserverance

and supplication for all the saints.No gun needed here.The only ones needing a gun are the ones with so little faith

in their end of times.Amen.

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Thank You deepdivesix and Dog53 It is good that the good folks do take time to train there families

the right way to shoot a weapon.Both of you make some valid points and I dont have a problem with

either of you owning a gun.I hate to bring personal issues to this forum but my grandmother was

hit in the head in her house and killed by a stray bullet from a .306 from a hunter that wasnt even

hunting.He was just shooting a bunch of junk in his yard and a bullet staryed off some metal and

went into my grandmothers house and killed her.Because we are religeous we didnt press any charges on him.

Dog I am proud to know that you are a indian and your guns should never be taken from you just as the

land was taken from you by our government.

Here is questions that maybe some of you in here might think on:

How many good people are there in this world that are considered good people verses how many bad

people there are?You'll find there are way more bad folks then good.

How do you get guns from the gang people while allowing good folks as yourselves having them?

Could you form a militia and go into bad neighborhoods and just shoot all these gang members on site

if they had guns?

Would crimminals take your holstered gun from you and use it on you as to say a teacher?

How would you know if the person standing behind you is a bad person?

Would god forgive you on judgement day for taking another persons life?

These are just some of the questions I asked myself.

Dog my bow is hand made its a longbow from a indian reservation in oaklahoma.I am proud to own it!

God made the creatures of the earth for us to eat and animals dont have souls so its not just killing as you say.

but I eat what I kill and as god said he loves the smell of cooking meats.(deuteronomy)

Its good to have debates like this one without a bunch of name calling I am just trying to figure out how you

can have guns without the gangpunks having them for crimes against the people.Its not going to be easy!

If guns and ammo were removed from the public even for a year or so until they could get the ones who

dont deserve them off the streets and given large jail terms for violating your rights to own them and use

them in the right manner.As most of you say guns dont kill people, people kill people.But it takes a human

being to operate a gun.Oxymoron? If guns were removed it would'nt be so easy to kill so fast it can still be done

but survival from a differant method of infliction gives one a better chance to survive the attack.

Because there are so many physco's in this world I cant see how you are going to get those guns from the

wicked.Just wait for them to come and then kill them?And then how many would they have killed before they

came to your house?Its hard for me to justify guns at this point for everyone with the crimes being commited

on a daily basis.Bad verses good?I am open for all suggestions and respect all of your posts against me.

I am not a bum I have a powder coating business and did not vote for the wolf in sheeps clothing.I pay my

taxes same as you good folks and dont wish to be catigorized as a puzzywimp or any other names.I am like JOB

and try to follow his god and let him protect me and my family from harm because when its your time to go

its time to go either way.Thank You for your professionalism in this debate and lets try to find a good solution that

works for everyone who wants a gun.But I will tell you this if it comes down to a vote to remove all guns I would vote for it.

So hopefully there is a way we can all prosper in a safe manner in life as we know it.God Bless each and every one of

you for reading my post.Amen.ps I am not perfect but I am work in progress for good.

Sorry Farwould this is where me and you differ. Yes I know without question animals do have souls. Have never seen a dog dream while it sleeps. If something dreams it acknowledges life. It has a soul. Because it`s a animal its soul is less then ours? I will respect your faith. But I`m sorry I cannot respect your judgement.

Sorry Farwould this is where me and you differ. Yes I know without question animals do have souls. Have never seen a dog dream while it sleeps. If something dreams it acknowledges life. It has a soul. Because it`s a animal its soul is less then ours? I will respect your faith. But I`m sorry I cannot respect your judgement.

. Everything your stating about gun ownership seems twisted somehow . Like you have to somehow rationalize your commitment to not owning a gun. You have a distorted belief that your god will somehow save you and your loved ones from danger. That my friend is a very dangerous belief .

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Farwould Here is some information for you. You say you speak for the Word of God, but I believe you are mistaken. Here is a little about self defense in the Bible.

19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. (1Co 6:19-20 ASV)

Not only are we to take care of our bodies and the life contained. We have an obligation to preserve the body and life of other people. Psalm 82:4 even cites an obligation to protect those who are in danger:

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Nehemiah 4 17 Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon. 18 As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me. ... 21So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared. ....23 So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.

If you live somewhere where you have reason to be concerned about crime, this would be similar to legally carrying a weapon to defend your family, even when running daily errands to the store.

Esther 8-9

The final Old Testament passage we examine is in the book of Esther. Here we have a historical example arranged by Divine Providence. In this account, the Jews are under threat of racial violence. The civil authority, King Ahasuerus, grants them legal permission to use lethal force in self-defense:

Esther 8:11-12 11 By these letters the king permitted the Jews who were in every city to gather together and protect their lives -- to destroy, kill, and annihilate all the forces of any people or province that would assault them, both little children and women, and to plunder their possessions...

So they have legal sanction to "protect their lives" using ultimate force, much as we do in most parts of this country. They are allowed to "kill and annihilate" in order to "protect their lives." Now, as people under obligation to obey God, not just stay within the civil laws of Ahasuerus, what do the Jews do with this legal freedom?

Esther 9:1-5 ...the Jews themselves overpowered those who hated them. 2 The Jews gathered together in their cities throughout all the provinces of King Ahasuerus to lay hands on those who sought their harm. And no one could withstand them, because fear of them fell upon all people....5 Thus the Jews defeated all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, with slaughter and destruction,

We see that given legal sanction to defend their lives with lethal force, they do not choose non-violence. Rather, as it says in verse 11, to "protect their lives", they use the "sword" (verse 5). Here is another example of widespread use of weapons in self-defense—a non-wartime, non-law enforcement scenario.

Buying and carrying a sword

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

Here's the context. Picture this. Jesus and his disciples have just had communion. They are about to go to a time of prayer in the garden. Jesus says these words to His disciples, and it's as if they are saying, "Look what we have with us, Lord. Two guns!" Jesus responds, "It is enough."

If you read commentaries on this passage, there are a number of questions which are not clearly answered. There are questions about the applicability of this passage, of the intent of Jesus, of the meaning of His response.

Whatever your interpretation of this passage, there are a few broad-stroke observations we can make about this passage.

  1. Jesus expected them to have swords and anticipated a time when those without swords would need to acquire them.
  2. Among eleven disciples, they did have two swords--in almost a 1:5 ratio.
  3. Jesus expected them to carry the swords on their person as they traveled from the city to the garden prayer meeting.

It is difficult to make absolute claims beyond these observations, but the observations themselves have significance. Namely, among those closest to Jesus, some carried personal weapons in His presence with His consent to communion and to prayer meetings. We cannot make absolute claims as to the reasons, right or, wrong, for the carriage of these weapons. Perhaps it was in anticipation of trouble from the Jewish leadership. Perhaps it was protection against mere robbers. Paul in 2 Cor. 11:26 cites the "perils of robbers". Though there are questions we can't answer, we do know they possessed these weapons, that they carried these weapons, and that Jesus knew and consented. Furthermore, Jesus spoke of some time, present or future, when disciples would need to acquire personal weapons, even more urgently than garments.

The Garden of Gethsemene

Now, the next passage we come to follows these events. Jesus and the disciples are in the garden, and the men come to arrest Jesus. At least two of the disciples are armed, with the knowledge and consent of Jesus. Here is the question: Will they use the sword against the armed multitude which has come against Him? Let's look at the three passages which recount this event.

Luke 22:49-53 (NAS) 49 And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. 52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber? 53 "While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

Matthew 26:51-56 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" 55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

John 18:10-11 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"

In these three passages, you get a sense that Jesus is saying, "Though we have a right to employ our swords in defense of this unrighteous arrest, we are intentionally putting aside our lawful right, and I am allowing myself to be taken without resistance." See how this is expressed: "Lord shall we strike with the sword?" "No more of this." "This is your hour, and the power of darkness." "Put up your sword... or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father... all this was done that the Scriptures...might be fulfilled." "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup...?"

Why Christ tells Peter to put up the sword:

  • Christ is willingly laying down His life, though He has the right to use sword and angelic legions to deliver Himself from this unjust arrest (Luke 22:51, John 18:11).
  • Those who are quick to resort to violence will die by violence (Matt 26:52). The Lord hates the one who "loves violence" (Psalm 11:5).

The sword is not always the appropriate response, especially in persecution for Christ.

There is greater protection than swords.

GOD BLESS!!! LORD SEND THE RAIN!!!

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Farwould Here is some information for you. You say you speak for the Word of God, but I believe you are mistaken. Here is a little about self defense in the Bible.

19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. (1Co 6:19-20 ASV)

Not only are we to take care of our bodies and the life contained. We have an obligation to preserve the body and life of other people. Psalm 82:4 even cites an obligation to protect those who are in danger:

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Nehemiah 4 17 Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon. 18 As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me. ... 21So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared. ....23 So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.

If you live somewhere where you have reason to be concerned about crime, this would be similar to legally carrying a weapon to defend your family, even when running daily errands to the store.

Esther 8-9

The final Old Testament passage we examine is in the book of Esther. Here we have a historical example arranged by Divine Providence. In this account, the Jews are under threat of racial violence. The civil authority, King Ahasuerus, grants them legal permission to use lethal force in self-defense:

Esther 8:11-12 11 By these letters the king permitted the Jews who were in every city to gather together and protect their lives -- to destroy, kill, and annihilate all the forces of any people or province that would assault them, both little children and women, and to plunder their possessions...

So they have legal sanction to "protect their lives" using ultimate force, much as we do in most parts of this country. They are allowed to "kill and annihilate" in order to "protect their lives." Now, as people under obligation to obey God, not just stay within the civil laws of Ahasuerus, what do the Jews do with this legal freedom?

Esther 9:1-5 ...the Jews themselves overpowered those who hated them. 2 The Jews gathered together in their cities throughout all the provinces of King Ahasuerus to lay hands on those who sought their harm. And no one could withstand them, because fear of them fell upon all people....5 Thus the Jews defeated all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, with slaughter and destruction,

We see that given legal sanction to defend their lives with lethal force, they do not choose non-violence. Rather, as it says in verse 11, to "protect their lives", they use the "sword" (verse 5). Here is another example of widespread use of weapons in self-defense—a non-wartime, non-law enforcement scenario.

Buying and carrying a sword

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

Here's the context. Picture this. Jesus and his disciples have just had communion. They are about to go to a time of prayer in the garden. Jesus says these words to His disciples, and it's as if they are saying, "Look what we have with us, Lord. Two guns!" Jesus responds, "It is enough."

If you read commentaries on this passage, there are a number of questions which are not clearly answered. There are questions about the applicability of this passage, of the intent of Jesus, of the meaning of His response.

Whatever your interpretation of this passage, there are a few broad-stroke observations we can make about this passage.

  1. Jesus expected them to have swords and anticipated a time when those without swords would need to acquire them.
  2. Among eleven disciples, they did have two swords--in almost a 1:5 ratio.
  3. Jesus expected them to carry the swords on their person as they traveled from the city to the garden prayer meeting.

It is difficult to make absolute claims beyond these observations, but the observations themselves have significance. Namely, among those closest to Jesus, some carried personal weapons in His presence with His consent to communion and to prayer meetings. We cannot make absolute claims as to the reasons, right or, wrong, for the carriage of these weapons. Perhaps it was in anticipation of trouble from the Jewish leadership. Perhaps it was protection against mere robbers. Paul in 2 Cor. 11:26 cites the "perils of robbers". Though there are questions we can't answer, we do know they possessed these weapons, that they carried these weapons, and that Jesus knew and consented. Furthermore, Jesus spoke of some time, present or future, when disciples would need to acquire personal weapons, even more urgently than garments.

The Garden of Gethsemene

Now, the next passage we come to follows these events. Jesus and the disciples are in the garden, and the men come to arrest Jesus. At least two of the disciples are armed, with the knowledge and consent of Jesus. Here is the question: Will they use the sword against the armed multitude which has come against Him? Let's look at the three passages which recount this event.

Luke 22:49-53 (NAS) 49 And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. 52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber? 53 "While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

Matthew 26:51-56 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" 55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

John 18:10-11 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"

In these three passages, you get a sense that Jesus is saying, "Though we have a right to employ our swords in defense of this unrighteous arrest, we are intentionally putting aside our lawful right, and I am allowing myself to be taken without resistance." See how this is expressed: "Lord shall we strike with the sword?" "No more of this." "This is your hour, and the power of darkness." "Put up your sword... or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father... all this was done that the Scriptures...might be fulfilled." "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup...?"

Why Christ tells Peter to put up the sword:

  • Christ is willingly laying down His life, though He has the right to use sword and angelic legions to deliver Himself from this unjust arrest (Luke 22:51, John 18:11).
  • Those who are quick to resort to violence will die by violence (Matt 26:52). The Lord hates the one who "loves violence" (Psalm 11:5).

The sword is not always the appropriate response, especially in persecution for Christ.

There is greater protection than swords.

GOD BLESS!!! LORD SEND THE RAIN!!!

Job 5:7-16 Yet man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward But as for me I would seek God,And to God I would commit my cause,who does great things and unsearchable marvelous things without number.HE GIVES RAIN ON THE EARTH and sends the waters on the fields,He sets on high those who are lowly,And those who mourn are lifted to safety,He frustrates the device of the crafty so that their hands cannot carry out their plans,He catches the wise in their own CRAFTINESS and the counsil of the cunning comes quickly upon them,They meet with darkness in the daytime and grope at noontime as in the night,But he saves the needy FROM THE SWORD from the mouth of the mighty and from their hand so the poor have hope

AND INJUSTICE SHUTS HER MOUTH.

Revelation19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the MOUTH of him who sat on the horse.

And the birds were filled with their flesh!

Gods word is the sword.Remember this: God said thall shall not kill' and God shall protect the ones with true faith.

Inside your heart he knows you are trying to use the word of God to justify death by weapon and thall shall perish

for your works.If your faith is true the only weapon you would need is the word of God.No harm shall come to him.

Job didnt need a sword or god would have gave him one but his true faith conquered evil with the word of God.

I speak for the word of God and I am not mistaken Thou shall not kill!!! pretty simple I think what God told us not to do

but you can go ahead and worship your weapon with God and see your final resting place upon the wicked.

Throw down your weapons and beat them into plowshares isnt that why you need the rain?

Your crops have withered along with your faith in God.God Bless You and everyone else in DV we need God

today more than the gun.Nice work by the way! any of Gods words are mightier than the gun.Nice try thou!

Peace and Love my freind Peace and Love.

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Job 5:7-16 Yet man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward But as for me I would seek God,And to God I would commit my cause,who does great things and unsearchable marvelous things without number.HE GIVES RAIN ON THE EARTH and sends the waters on the fields,He sets on high those who are lowly,And those who mourn are lifted to safety,He frustrates the device of the crafty so that their hands cannot carry out their plans,He catches the wise in their own CRAFTINESS and the counsil of the cunning comes quickly upon them,They meet with darkness in the daytime and grope at noontime as in the night,But he saves the needy FROM THE SWORD from the mouth of the mighty and from their hand so the poor have hope

AND INJUSTICE SHUTS HER MOUTH.

Revelation19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the MOUTH of him who sat on the horse.

And the birds were filled with their flesh!

Gods word is the sword.Remember this: God said thall shall not kill' and God shall protect the ones with true faith.

Inside your heart he knows you are trying to use the word of God to justify death by weapon and thall shall perish

for your works.If your faith is true the only weapon you would need is the word of God.No harm shall come to him.

Job didnt need a sword or god would have gave him one but his true faith conquered evil with the word of God.

I speak for the word of God and I am not mistaken Thou shall not kill!!! pretty simple I think what God told us not to do

but you can go ahead and worship your weapon with God and see your final resting place upon the wicked.

Throw down your weapons and beat them into plowshares isnt that why you need the rain?

Your crops have withered along with your faith in God.God Bless You and everyone else in DV we need God

today more than the gun.Nice work by the way! any of Gods words are mightier than the gun.Nice try thou!

Peace and Love my freind Peace and Love.

I feel sorry for you, you seem to be very misguided. You might want to check out my profile page, I know the Word and I don't have to twist it to fit my beliefs. Oh and byt the way the rain I speak of in every post is the blessing that prophecy speaks of in the last days. The wealth of the wicked is laid up for the just.

GOD BLESS!!! LORD SEND THE RAIN!!!

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I dont hate you either I love ya dog53.

That statement makes you a liar in my book...you have no clue who "dog53" is, yet you claim to love him? Right....

You pick and choose various passages of Scripture to shore up your "holy" belief system...people who did what you are doing back in the days of Christ were referred to (by Him) as hypocrites. Count the number of verses He spoke out against the religious do gooders and then count the number of verses He spoke out against defending one's self...you'll clearly see He was more focused on slamming the hypocrites. Go stand on your street corner and continue to show us how holy you are by telling those who want to protect themselves from evil just how bad they are...

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That statement makes you a liar in my book...you have no clue who "dog53" is, yet you claim to love him? Right....

You pick and choose various passages of Scripture to shore up your "holy" belief system...people who did what you are doing back in the days of Christ were referred to (by Him) as hypocrites. Count the number of verses He spoke out against the religious do gooders and then count the number of verses He spoke out against defending one's self...you'll clearly see He was more focused on slamming the hypocrites. Go stand on your street corner and continue to show us how holy you are by telling those who want to protect themselves from evil just how bad they are...

I love everyone including you Kliklok and I forgive you is that so bad or should I hate everyone?

I never said you should'nt protect yourself from the wicked,I choose not to be around the wicked or be friends with the wicked

because evil begats evil.You can still catch the evil and bring them to justice for crimes commited against the just.

You would'nt want me to kill you for a crime just because I thought you should die for that crime commited against me.

God is the ultimate judge not us.We do have a legal system and I know its not the best because man runs it and none of us are

worthy not even me.I am a sinner and can admit it.I dont want a gun and thats my choice,You can have all the guns you want

thats your choice.I dont want to kill anyone and if you want to kill someone thats your choice.I promote peace and love

and you can promote what you want to.I just want everyone to live and be happy is that so bad? I might not know dog which means that

you dont know me to make a judgement upon me.I am not judging anyone I say its bad to kill a person because god said thou shall not kill

and chose to believe him because he knows better than me the reason why.Would you wrather me stand on a street corner

with a bible in my hand promoting peace or stand on the corner with a automatic machine gun shooting at people?

Which is better I ask you.God Bless You kliklok your better than me.peace and love my friend peace and love.

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I love everyone including you Kliklok and I forgive you is that so bad or should I hate everyone?

I never said you should'nt protect yourself from the wicked,I choose not to be around the wicked or be friends with the wicked

because evil begats evil.You can still catch the evil and bring them to justice for crimes commited against the just.

You would'nt want me to kill you for a crime just because I thought you should die for that crime commited against me.

God is the ultimate judge not us.We do have a legal system and I know its not the best because man runs it and none of us are

worthy not even me.I am a sinner and can admit it.I dont want a gun and thats my choice,You can have all the guns you want

thats your choice.I dont want to kill anyone and if you want to kill someone thats your choice.I promote peace and love

and you can promote what you want to.I just want everyone to live and be happy is that so bad? I might not know dog which means that

you dont know me to make a judgement upon me.I am not judging anyone I say its bad to kill a person because god said thou shall not kill

and chose to believe him because he knows better than me the reason why.Would you wrather me stand on a street corner

with a bible in my hand promoting peace or stand on the corner with a automatic machine gun shooting at people?

Which is better I ask you.God Bless You kliklok your better than me.peace and love my friend peace and love.

The commandment is not to murder.

You shall not murder sometimes translated as You shall not kill, KJV Thou shalt not kill (LXX οὐ φονεύσεις, translating Hebrew לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah,[1] specifically Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17.

The imperative is against unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt. The Hebrew Bible contains numerous prohibitions against unlawful killing, but also allows for justified killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.

GOD BLESS!!! LORD SEND THE RAIN!!!

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