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Ret. Constitutional Attorney's opinion on the real deal on Obamacare


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i have been here in iraq sence late 2008 to today and i get lots of mail on th RV some say 0.10 and some say way over a dallor . every one has herd the rumers about this and that ! but i am looking at what was told to me by the man at the bank that set's at the big dest . now this was last week and i asked him when the dinar was going to be come strong like it was be for the war ? now this is what he told me . sir the dinar will be very very very strong in 60 days ! now he had me at very but he used that word three times , now he would not give me a clue as to what it would be at but he made me feel good about holding dinars and looking for the RV . so i beleave that it will open under a dallor and then after 30 dat start to move down to weed the hard core out for they would see that the dinar is falling and rush to cash in . then it would spike to a real amount that would reflect how much this country is worth as far as there oil. now one last thing i have been seeing a lot of new cars all high end showing up and a coworkers son is in the navy was told that there is a lot of boats just setting in the water looking to unload ! so that tells me that there is some thing comming and looks good !

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Tche..tche flat-earth playground did you say? Sorry that an opinion is shaped by corporate America...hmm wonder what you are doing here Muspublisher? My, my are you looking a group to look down upon because they do not agree with your ideas? Perhaps you wish to point out our flaws.

Or better yet are you looking for a good news item for a the Liberal Media?

At the very least we are aware that we are human, intelligent, active and willing to take care ourselves without a leader who wants ta remove rights and decsiions from families and individuals.

Oh by the way. Do you have an awareness of your flaws and foolish post?

Remember the Gettsyburg address, we do!

God Bless America now and forever. It is the land of the FREE AND THE BRAVE!

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A wonderful thought which I support if only those we elected would remember the "Goverment is of the People" They have forgotten that the American People Govern their Nation and we do not trust America in the hands of those who violate the trust that we offered as we allowed each of them to represent our values in Congress or the White House. Do we hire them to be parents or caretakers or nursemaids or baby sitters taking care of us at they see fit? No! We are their bosses. Yes, grown up American Citzens and it is time to be recognized as such.

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Last time I checked, this was a forum for dinar rumors. This isn't your flat-earth playground. Furthermore, I'm sorry your opinion has been shaped by corporate America so much that you cannot see this bill does one thing, and one thing only: Life and death is no longer a dollar figure. If you can't see that, then I'm afraid you're even more foolish than your post suggests.

It is a shame to see how people could aplaude seeing the Constitution and our Country being destroyed, as the iniciator of the thread said, we will not go down with our arms tight! GOD BLESS AMERICA!

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Found on another site:

Our Constitution is Almost Gone

A retired Constitutional lawyer has read the entire proposed healthcare bill. Read his conclusions and pass this on as you wish. This is stunning!

Please take the time to read this and forward it out as you see fit. Thanks

The Truth About the Health Care Bills -

Michael Connelly, Ret. Constitutional Attorney

Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009. I studied it with particular emphasis from my area of expertise, constitutional law. I was frankly concerned that parts of the proposed law that were being discussed might be unconstitutional. What I found was far worse than what I had heard or expected.

To begin with, much of what has been said about the law and its implications is in fact true, despite what the Democrats and the media are saying. The law does provide for rationing of health care, particularly where senior citizens and other classes of citizens are involved, free health care for illegal immigrants, free abortion services, and probably forced participation in abortions by members of the medical profession.

The Bill will also eventually force private insurance companies out of business, and put everyone into a government run system. All decisions about personal health care will ultimately be made by federal bureaucrats, and most of them will not be health care professionals. Hospital admissions, payments to physicians, and allocations of necessary medical devices will be strictly controlled by the government.

However, as scary as all of that is, it just scratches the surface. In fact, I have concluded that this legislation really has no intention of providing affordable health care choices. Instead it is a convenient cover for the most massive transfer of power to the Executive Branch of government that has ever occurred, or even been contemplated If this law or a similar one is adopted, major portions of the Constitution of the United States will effectively have been destroyed.

The first thing to go will be the masterfully crafted balance of power between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the U.S. Government. The Congress will be transferring to the Obama Administration authority in a number of different areas over the lives of the American people, and the businesses they own.

The irony is that the Congress doesn't have any authority to legislate in most of those areas to begin with! I defy anyone to read the text of the U.S. Constitution and find any authority granted to the members of Congress to regulate health care.

This legislation also provides for access, by the appointees of the Obama administration, of all of your personal healthcare direct violation of the specific provisions of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution information, your personal financial information, and the information of your employer, physician, and hospital. All of this is a protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures. You can also forget about the right to privacy. That will have been legislated into oblivion regardless of what the 3rd and 4th Amendments may provide...

If you decide not to have healthcare insurance, or if you have private insurance that is not deemed acceptable to the Health Choices Administrator appointed by Obama, there will be a tax imposed on you. It is called a tax instead of a fine because of the intent to avoid application of the due process clause of the 5th Amendment. However, that doesn't work because since there is nothing in the law that allows you to contest or appeal the imposition of the tax, it is definitely depriving someone of property without the due process of law.

So, there are three of those pesky amendments that the far left hate so much, out the original ten in the Bill of Rights, that are effectively nullified by this law It doesn't stop there though.

The 9th Amendment that provides: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people;

The 10th Amendment states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are preserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Under the provisions of this piece of Congressional handiwork neither the people nor the states are going to have any rights or powers at all in many areas that once were theirs to control.

I could write many more pages about this legislation, but I think you get the idea. This is not about health care; it is about seizing power and limiting rights... Article 6 of the Constitution requires the members of both houses of Congress to "be bound by oath or affirmation to support the Constitution." If I was a member of Congress I would not be able to vote for this legislation or anything like it, without feeling I was violating that sacred oath or affirmation. If I voted for it anyway, I would hope the American people would hold me accountable.

For those who might doubt the nature of this threat, I suggest they consult the source, the US Constitution, and Bill of Rights. There you can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.

Michael Connelly

Retired attorney,

Constitutional Law Instructor

Carrollton , Texas

Correct me if I am wrong, should this have been posted in Off Tobic post?

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You're better than this Barbann.... I don't even know where to begin in dissecting this nugget. However, I have apologized to Watcher for calling him stupid and I'll even further it by apologizing to you if I have offended you in any way. I'm educated in the political field... so yeah, I do have understanding beyond what a typical person would, or could, understand. I'm trying to tell you how it is... not how you're told. Period. If you don't want the information, fine by me. Remain poor and wonder why you are........

As for myself, I'm already retired so not a whole lot gets me worked up. I'm not even 35 and I still have a long life ahead of me.... I just find it sad that the poorest of people still try to uphold those who want to keep them poor. (((shrugs))) You can lead a horse to water.........

Either way.. as I said... I'm done. I'm going to bed.. and tomorrow I don't have to work. Tuesday I don't have to work... Wednesday... nope.... why? I don't know... because I understand how the system works.. I understand who is really in charge... and I made money off of them. Just like the Dinar..... want to know how to make money from war? Follow the money... who is making out.... and grab a piece of the pie. This is all we have done.... and it didn't take a Republican or Democrat to tell us to do so.

Wow..... I hate to generalize, but just like every other liberal I know, your arrogance is sickening. Just because you have studied politics and been around it, does not make you any smarter thant the lowly "average american." It was the "average american" who built this great nation. It was the average american who fought WWI and WWI. It was the "stupid" average american who founded companies like Ford, Walmart, and GE, who emplyee millions of people around the world. It is these people who are NOT "keeping people poor." The people who keep people poor are governments, not citizens. Look around the world and it's obvious. Where free enterprise flourishes, so do the people. where the government controls, the people are poor. It does not take a political science major to figure that out. It IS sad that the poorest of people try to uphold those who make them poor. It broke my heart watching people celebrate over Obama's election because they were sure they would no longer have to pay their rent and they might get a new refrigerator. The more the more the government controls, the less the people have. Yes, it's true, many get rich in a conservative type society, but that's not a bad thing. At least then everyone has the chance to. Your examples of all the great conservative failures are rediculous. Those were religous movements, not political ones. The reason our nation has been more successful in it's short life than any other in history, is because our Founding fathers, who by the way many were "average americans", were smart enough to set a government in which the people had control over their lives. And look how our nation has flourished! This healthcare bill does nothing but take the power out of the people's hands and hand it right back to the government. It is a huge mistake , and laugh all you want, but IT IS THE STEPPING STONE TO MARXISM.... read a book!

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What surprises me is that there is so much ignorance among the citizens of this great nation concerning those who they elect before they are elected. Nobody makes time to do some type of background check on these individuals that is why we are in this mess. Sorry to informed you all but is going to get worse this is just the begining.

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What surprises me is that there is so much ignorance among the citizens of this great nation concerning those who they elect before they are elected. Nobody makes time to do some type of background check on these individuals that is why we are in this mess. Sorry to informed you all but is going to get worse this is just the begining.

Actually there was a lot of background that was vetted on Obama. Unfortunately it fell on many deaf ears who are now regretting what they did. If the old saying is true that you tell a lot about a person by the company they keep, then just look at who he aligns himself with and that will divulge all of his background.

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Wow..... I hate to generalize, but just like every other liberal I know, your arrogance is sickening. Just because you have studied politics and been around it, does not make you any smarter thant the lowly "average american." It was the "average american" who built this great nation. It was the average american who fought WWI and WWI. It was the "stupid" average american who founded companies like Ford, Walmart, and GE, who emplyee millions of people around the world. It is these people who are NOT "keeping people poor." The people who keep people poor are governments, not citizens. Look around the world and it's obvious. Where free enterprise flourishes, so do the people. where the government controls, the people are poor. It does not take a political science major to figure that out. It IS sad that the poorest of people try to uphold those who make them poor. It broke my heart watching people celebrate over Obama's election because they were sure they would no longer have to pay their rent and they might get a new refrigerator. The more the more the government controls, the less the people have. Yes, it's true, many get rich in a conservative type society, but that's not a bad thing. At least then everyone has the chance to. Your examples of all the great conservative failures are rediculous. Those were religous movements, not political ones. The reason our nation has been more successful in it's short life than any other in history, is because our Founding fathers, who by the way many were "average americans", were smart enough to set a government in which the people had control over their lives. And look how our nation has flourished! This healthcare bill does nothing but take the power out of the people's hands and hand it right back to the government. It is a huge mistake , and laugh all you want, but IT IS THE STEPPING STONE TO MARXISM.... read a book!

Well stated and by the way, don't get too upset with him afterall he has been educated by Universities that make no bones about promoting a liberal leftist agenda.

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Barbann... with all due respect, nothing, and I mean NOTHING happens in the country without corporate America's say so. If you don't understand that simple fact, I'm afraid you don't understand anything about the country in which you inhabit.

Muspublisher, your statement is inconsistent on it's face. If the country is run at the whim of corporate America how in the world would a healthcare plan have been passed that controls profits of insurance companies and taxes the heck out of medical equipment suppliers. This bill is the first (big) step in shifting 1/6 of our economy away from private control and over to government control and it only continues that trend in other areas. I am afraid you are the one that needs a reality check. No doubt business has huge lobbying influence, but right now government is by far the biggest long term threat to our Democratic Republic. As government welfare continues to increase it's reach into the voting public and as we close toward a majority of citizens who are "on the dole" we will continue toward a cliff that will mean the end of our society as we know it. When a majority of citizens receive and then vote for more and more government handouts, the size of government overwhelms the economy and the "producers" in America give up or leave. Socialism is a failed experiment. The more we adopt of it the closer we come to failure ourselves. You can't unreasonably penalize the producers of economy and thrive. Free and thriving economy and strong work ethic is the best form of welfare, second is private non-profit enterprises (including churches, etc.) and dead last in efficiency is government. Relying upon government as the solution to our problems should be our last resort.

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Muspublisher, your statement is inconsistent on it's face. If the country is run at the whim of corporate America how in the world would a healthcare plan have been passed that controls profits of insurance companies and taxes the heck out of medical equipment suppliers. This bill is the first (big) step in shifting 1/6 of our economy away from private control and over to government control and it only continues that trend in other areas. I am afraid you are the one that needs a reality check. No doubt business has huge lobbying influence, but right now government is by far the biggest long term threat to our Democratic Republic. As government welfare continues to increase it's reach into the voting public and as we close toward a majority of citizens who are "on the dole" we will continue toward a cliff that will mean the end of our society as we know it. When a majority of citizens receive and then vote for more and more government handouts, the size of government overwhelms the economy and the "producers" in America give up or leave. Socialism is a failed experiment. The more we adopt of it the closer we come to failure ourselves. You can't unreasonably penalize the producers of economy and thrive. Free and thriving economy and strong work ethic is the best form of welfare, second is private non-profit enterprises (including churches, etc.) and dead last in efficiency is government. Relying upon government as the solution to our problems should be our last resort.

Kent...I am not a socialist nor subscribe to that ideology at all, but I am looking for intelligent dialogue on this subject. I just have a problem with the polarized viewpoints in our country that lack traces of empathy to the other sides view. Inferring both parties of course. You and I have shared some great conversations relating to dinar. Your comments above are certainly correct as are many in this post. However, there are 2 sides to every coin. Understand, I have voted whom I considered the best person for the country each time on both sides of the aisle. I feel Socialism isn't a "failed experiment" per se, but certainly has flaws that lack the prosperous potential that we have in America... as history suggests. The idea behind Socialism is noble in abstract form, but clearly doesn't work when you play it through to the end.

The argument that I have for all of you intelligent posters here is this... To what degree do we allow capitalism take us? At what cost? I understand how capitalism and free enterprise works and I wouldn't want it any other way. However, at this pace we are clearly dividing our nation into severe and separate social classes relating mostly to income and really (in some regards) to opportunities for her people. It's like pulling taffy in 2 directions until there is no longer a middle and it eventually breaks. It seems to me that to be an effective WHOLE country, we need to take care of certain things for each other to keep the progress going. I am not referring to welfare. I am suggesting that big business and the wealthy create jobs and opportunities which is awesome. However, if we don't take care of some social functions they will lead to increased crime and some chaos to many that fill those positions. Education could be considered socialism to some. Social security and Medicare as well. Health care and welfare for sure. What would our nation be like without those things? Many were implemented during or after the Great Depression. What would have happened during the Depression had it been continued to play itself out without these social programs? I certainly don't know but understand they must have needed them to create them. Health care is getting ridiculous. Is it not a right for us all to live our lives with the notion we can get help when we get sick? Or have we valued money over our fellow man so much that we subscribe to the natural selection theory of the animal kingdom? I can't stand the free loaders anymore than any of you but they are the minority. Truly, It is effecting hard working everyday citizens that can't seem to see that the health industry will only get worse if they are allowed to continue on this path. We must see the big picture here. Capitalism in all of its glory, eventually can lead to an extreme separation of classes if certain precautions or actions aren't taken to help ensure basic human necessities are met. The haves and have-not's of education, opportunity, food, shelter, and health. Notice I did not say money. I feel that a little regulation on this particular industry will benefit the whole and aid capitalism to continue to thrive in the end. It is not perfect and will require tweaks as it plays out.... but my folks pay $2000 a month for health insurance at this time and I see nothing fair nor American about that.

I welcome all of your intelligent thoughts and comments. I am simply starting a conversation on the subject in hopes of bridging some divides. Thanks for your time.

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Last time I checked, this was a forum for dinar rumors. This isn't your flat-earth playground. Furthermore, I'm sorry your opinion has been shaped by corporate America so much that you cannot see this bill does one thing, and one thing only: Life and death is no longer a dollar figure. If you can't see that, then I'm afraid you're even more foolish than your post suggests.

You are the foolish one here.....keep your head in the sand. I bet your not a Vet or probably mot even an American. If you are please leave, we don't need anymore of your liberal types.

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Kent...I am not a socialist nor subscribe to that ideology at all, but I am looking for intelligent dialogue on this subject. I just have a problem with the polarized viewpoints in our country that lack traces of empathy to the other sides view. Inferring both parties of course. You and I have shared some great conversations relating to dinar. Your comments above are certainly correct as are many in this post. However, there are 2 sides to every coin. Understand, I have voted whom I considered the best person for the country each time on both sides of the aisle. I feel Socialism isn't a "failed experiment" per se, but certainly has flaws that lack the prosperous potential that we have in America... as history suggests. The idea behind Socialism is noble in abstract form, but clearly doesn't work when you play it through to the end.

The argument that I have for all of you intelligent posters here is this... To what degree do we allow capitalism take us? At what cost? I understand how capitalism and free enterprise works and I wouldn't want it any other way. However, at this pace we are clearly dividing our nation into severe and separate social classes relating mostly to income and really (in some regards) to opportunities for her people. It's like pulling taffy in 2 directions until there is no longer a middle and it eventually breaks. It seems to me that to be an effective WHOLE country, we need to take care of certain things for each other to keep the progress going. I am not referring to welfare. I am suggesting that big business and the wealthy create jobs and opportunities which is awesome. However, if we don't take care of some social functions they will lead to increased crime and some chaos to many that fill those positions. Education could be considered socialism to some. Social security and Medicare as well. Health care and welfare for sure. What would our nation be like without those things? Many were implemented during or after the Great Depression. What would have happened during the Depression had it been continued to play itself out without these social programs? I certainly don't know but understand they must have needed them to create them. Health care is getting ridiculous. Is it not a right for us all to live our lives with the notion we can get help when we get sick? Or have we valued money over our fellow man so much that we subscribe to the natural selection theory of the animal kingdom? I can't stand the free loaders anymore than any of you but they are the minority. Truly, It is effecting hard working everyday citizens that can't seem to see that the health industry will only get worse if they are allowed to continue on this path. We must see the big picture here. Capitalism in all of its glory, eventually can lead to an extreme separation of classes if certain precautions or actions aren't taken to help ensure basic human necessities are met. The haves and have-not's of education, opportunity, food, shelter, and health. Notice I did not say money. I feel that a little regulation on this particular industry will benefit the whole and aid capitalism to continue to thrive in the end. It is not perfect and will require tweaks as it plays out.... but my folks pay $2000 a month for health insurance at this time and I see nothing fair nor American about that.

I welcome all of your intelligent thoughts and comments. I am simply starting a conversation on the subject in hopes of bridging some divides. Thanks for your time.

Excellent post, thank you. I agree there should be a happy medium for those who need it. As I understand the health care bill it does not address the fundamental issue of costs. That is the bottom line..if that were addressed all the rest would not be needed. Affordable healthcare is essential and no one should have to suffer because they don't have the money. I certainly have no desire to see anyone suffer needlessly. One more thing I might add is health care is no a corporate issue, a democratic issue or a conservative issue. It is a human issue and deserves to be dealt with all the muscle our political system can muster from every direction to see that all Americans are able to get the health care they need when they need it.

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Drox, great to engage. Understand I am not libertarian. Although most often associated with the "radical right wing religious conservatives", I am not quite as anti-government as they often are. I am, however a fiscal and social conservative in the political spectrum. Government can do a lot of good. Many on the right don't believe that. I do believe that government should be a last resort and has made monumental blunders. You mentioned Social Security. There are modified private methods to address those concerns, but instead the government has held on to that revenue and spent it as a part of the general budget. If I did that with other people's money as an insurance agency owner I would go to jail! Government is large, inefficient and dishonest (in the sense of being a trustee of other people's money), but they can do a lot of good by creating an environment where good things happen with incentives - if the incentives encourage the right things.

Healthcare? We desperately need reform. This is the wrong reform. About 1/3 of our insurance operation is health insurance. I hate having to hand out those rate increases to our clients, but the present reform does VERY little to reduce cost and will destroy some efficiencies. Why couldn't they do Tort Reform so the doctors don't prescribe so many unnecessary tests? Why should every policyholder be entitled to UNLIMITED healthcare rather than (usually) a Million Dollar limit (or more)? Why couldn't they implement outcome based provider payment systems? Outcome tracking is already in the insurance company computers. Why do they want to take away Managed Health concepts like Health Savings Accounts where people become more responsible for how healthcare is bought rather than less? Why wouldn't they allow companies to sell health insurance across state lines to increase competition? Why do we want the government to say what a minimum policy looks like? And why is the government the best "exchange" rather than insurance agents (sorry, I got personal).

Let me give a quick example of government "help" in health insurance. Texas is one of the most regulated states in the union (I know, you are shocked). We have more "mandated" state and federal benefits than almost any state in the union. Why do I need to sell a policy that has minimum coverage for mental health or chiropractic care or substance abuse treatment? Why do I have to sell maternity coverage to women who can't conceive? We have loaded so much junk into the policy that no one can buy an inexpensive policy. If there was going to be a government mandated benefit, why wouldn't it be a minimum mandate? In Australia, they have a nationalized system, but only for emergency and necessary care and not for any elective procedures. Why, if we were going to mandate something (constitutional issue aside) wouldn't it be a minimum that people can afford? Instead, protection must be expanded and my Democrat friends won't allow competition across state lines because it would be a "fight to the bottom of the barrel" in defining reduced benefits. If you are going to make people buy something, make them buy the bottom of the barrel and LET the free market sell something better to those who want and can afford it? Government could still require standards of benefit disclosure to enhance comparison and competition.

A critical failing of the healthcare system began, like so many things, with untended consequences of something that looked really good. When ***'s (health maintenance organizations) began they transformed plan design of insurance to the present $10-25 office co-pay system that was carried over to almost all health insurance. It was a great benefit. It also made for an entire generation of very poor consumers who haven't a clue how much it really costs to go to the doctor. It was a little bit of socializing the plan design. When personal responsibility is reduced, systems always fail. The older, deductible and co-pay percentage plans kept the consumer involved and aware. Often when government tries to do a good thing there is a destructive social engineering outcome. Our safety net keeps getting bigger and fewer people care whether they fall into it.

More is not always better! Socialization always fails. In our country it failed in the Plymouth settlement with communal farming (the settlement was saved when everyone tilled their own plot and benefited from their own hard work) and every time sense. The farther you move from personal responsibility, the quicker you fail. It is one of the practical and religious backbones of our Republic.

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Drox, one more quick note since you mentioned education. One of the absolute best examples of successful government engineering was the GI Bill. IMO, we literally built this country's economic base on the backs of WWII women in manufacturing and the education of the men and women who returned home and got a degree with the help of the GI Bill. The personal responsibility, initiative, and education of that generation leapfrogged this country to international preeminence.

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That is what good discussion looks like. Fantastic post. You are right on so many levels. Clearly you have more of an insiders knowledge than I do. It wouldn't surprise me if you have all 2300 pages of the HCB on your nightstand for some easy reading. Haha...

The truth is that the discussion about reform was a stalemate. It has been a stalemate for decades. Before it became law, some health firm in California decided to raise premiums 39% at one time and not because of the pending legislation. All the while, making record profits.

I truly believe this is a human argument as I have posted in another thread. We as a people need to embrace the concept of death more readily and relinquish the notion of immortality. Taking the fear out of death can be a beautiful thing. It would allow for family to let go of loved ones when their time has come versus prolonging the pain for personal reasons. The fountain of youth is not found as an attachment to a ventilator or artificial life support system. Exception certainly exist for the young. Our days should be measured in quality versus quantity. We are prolonging the inevitable in so many circumstances. Many do not take care of their bodies through exercising or eating properly. Many have unnecessary surgeries. Many find comfort and friendship through just being miserable and wanting to be sick. They get attention when they are sick so they go to the doctor for a sneeze. So many are walking around in an unconscious state that produces so much unnecessary stress.... which inevitably breaks the body down faster. I think Buddha said the human condition is to "suffer". Christianity calls it sin or to miss the mark. Unconsciousness seems to me to be the root of all of this madness and unhealthy dialogue which eventually leads to poor health and poor choices in our lives. Perhaps it simply is a lack of faith or spirituality. Who knows.

A guy here in Denver has been brain dead for over 20 years but remains on life support and we the tax payers are paying for it. My good friend was burned over 30% of his body and was in an ICU burn unit for many months and had countless surgeries and skin graphs. He didn't have health insurance and the driver of the other vehicle didn't have car insurance. We are paying for that as tax payers too. I am glad he is alright but it may have been different had he been forced to have insurance. I think if the Government can force me to pay taxes then they can certainly force me to pay health insurance if it is for a greater good. Something had to change. When Henry Ford built his first car I bet it sucked. But...he built it and tweaked it until it became something great. We are still tweaking those cars 100 years later and they are becoming amazing. I see this bill as a first and necessary step but not the end. I personally like the idea of Australia's system and would have supported that kind of reform. Clearly, the stalemate had to end. Hopefully we have the industry's attention and a better competitive environment can occur within the biz. It seemed like a whole lot of price fixing and back room information sharing took place to me (with the insurers). I like your ideas and will vote for you in the next election when you are ready to put the insurance gig to the side. Too bad we couldn't have treated this like a war. Engage and clean up some crap for a couple years...monitor for awhile, and then release it back to them. Kind of like the Iraq experiment except for health care. Good chatting as always. BTW...what happened to Chas32 and FP?

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Well, only God knows MY day or hour. I'd like to live as long as he will allow. I do not need someone to "assist via coached suicide" out of this life thank you.

I am reminded of a man on the Morey Povich Show who's wife had been in a coma since the mid 1950's. She finally came out of the coma in the 1990's. Someone in the audience asked why he didn't just put her in a home and move on with his life. His response was, "because she is my wife".

Your young and you suppose that its okay to "coach" someone into taking the easy way out. After all, its of no concern to you, its not your life. Life has a away of coming full circle. We will all get old if we make it to the golden years. So I pray that no one is making the decision for your life when that time comes, you just may want to stick around for a few years.

Playing God can be very dangerous. "Money" is the bottom line in the decisions of whether a person is financially feasible to live. Anyone assisting someone to "leave this earth" has the blood of that person on their hands. Like abortion, assisted coached suicide is murder, plain and simple. May God have mercy on those that are sympathetic toward this type of "healthcare??".

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Nice assumption Dinars4Jesus. Once again your assumptions led you down the wrong path. I was really referring to having faith in heaven and relinquishing fears of death because of that which awaits. You know...Let go and Let God. I am not suggesting anything like what you mentioned. Sometimes people put undue pressure on loved ones to chase surgeries towards the end of terminal illnesses. Just saying we shouldn't fear dying so much. Giving up and knowing when your time is approaching are 2 entirely different things.

So tell me... if money is the bottom line in the decisions of whether a person is financially feasible to live (as you suggest)... do you have blood on your hands for not assisting those that can't afford to be kept alive? You are clearly against helping 32 million others get health care. See how dumb this game is? You should be ashamed of your accusations for someone that suggests themselves to be so God fearing. I am not mad at you just didn't like your accusation. God bless.

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Christ used word toward certain ones ... serpents ...off spring of vipers ... hypocrites ... inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness ...

Interesting conclusion to the thread, perhaps.

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That is what good discussion looks like. Fantastic post. You are right on so many levels. Clearly you have more of an insiders knowledge than I do. It wouldn't surprise me if you have all 2300 pages of the HCB on your nightstand for some easy reading. Haha...

The truth is that the discussion about reform was a stalemate. It has been a stalemate for decades. Before it became law, some health firm in California decided to raise premiums 39% at one time and not because of the pending legislation. All the while, making record profits.

I truly believe this is a human argument as I have posted in another thread. We as a people need to embrace the concept of death more readily and relinquish the notion of immortality. Taking the fear out of death can be a beautiful thing. It would allow for family to let go of loved ones when their time has come versus prolonging the pain for personal reasons. The fountain of youth is not found as an attachment to a ventilator or artificial life support system. Exception certainly exist for the young. Our days should be measured in quality versus quantity. We are prolonging the inevitable in so many circumstances. Many do not take care of their bodies through exercising or eating properly. Many have unnecessary surgeries. Many find comfort and friendship through just being miserable and wanting to be sick. They get attention when they are sick so they go to the doctor for a sneeze. So many are walking around in an unconscious state that produces so much unnecessary stress.... which inevitably breaks the body down faster. I think Buddha said the human condition is to "suffer". Christianity calls it sin or to miss the mark. Unconsciousness seems to me to be the root of all of this madness and unhealthy dialogue which eventually leads to poor health and poor choices in our lives. Perhaps it simply is a lack of faith or spirituality. Who knows.

A guy here in Denver has been brain dead for over 20 years but remains on life support and we the tax payers are paying for it. My good friend was burned over 30% of his body and was in an ICU burn unit for many months and had countless surgeries and skin graphs. He didn't have health insurance and the driver of the other vehicle didn't have car insurance. We are paying for that as tax payers too. I am glad he is alright but it may have been different had he been forced to have insurance. I think if the Government can force me to pay taxes then they can certainly force me to pay health insurance if it is for a greater good. Something had to change. When Henry Ford built his first car I bet it sucked. But...he built it and tweaked it until it became something great. We are still tweaking those cars 100 years later and they are becoming amazing. I see this bill as a first and necessary step but not the end. I personally like the idea of Australia's system and would have supported that kind of reform. Clearly, the stalemate had to end. Hopefully we have the industry's attention and a better competitive environment can occur within the biz. It seemed like a whole lot of price fixing and back room information sharing took place to me (with the insurers). I like your ideas and will vote for you in the next election when you are ready to put the insurance gig to the side. Too bad we couldn't have treated this like a war. Engage and clean up some crap for a couple years...monitor for awhile, and then release it back to them. Kind of like the Iraq experiment except for health care. Good chatting as always. BTW...what happened to Chas32 and FP?

It was a stalemate and something had to give. I deeply regret that the Republicans didn't have the guts to do free market reforms before the Dems were in power. Perhaps they will be successful in "repeal and replace". I sincerely hope so. Left as it is, our economy will be driven to prolonged recession. I really believe this will hurt much, much more than it will help. About those insurance company profits?, the company you are referring to in California is Wellpoint. Don't readily believe the line about obscene profits. Claims drive price. Medical inflation has outstripped normal inflation by about 3x in the last 10 years. Consistent with most mature industries, insurance actually falls fairly low in profit percentage on the fortune 500. Understand also that the regulators see insurance companies as fiduciaries and require that they maintain and grow reserves in proportion to their growth in premium in order to pay claims. I saw a study that indicated if you took all the profit from the health insurance industry it would pay for healthcare for about 2.5 days. I would spend that against government "efficiency" any day.

I agree that our culture perhaps holds too fiercely to life and even in the Christian faith suffering is a tool that God allows to bring glory to Himself. Our frailty should be a reflection of our need and the end of life a transition to the real immortality that we grasp so firmly in this temporal world. That cultural value for the life of the individual has, however been an important heritage that has made the US a partner for much good in the world (at least after we grew up and abolished slavery and gave women the right to vote). Trifling with that value for the individual, particularly at the discretion of government is another of those potentially "good" things with huge unintended consequences. I deeply fear euthanasia and regret abortion as great sins that devalue the life God gave. On the other hand, He never promised an unlimited amount of resources to continue life and present methods in hospice to allow life to end with limited pain are gracious and admirable - (with the exception of withholding food and fluid which I consider a messy method of euthanasia - I'd rather take a bullet or a bottle of pills than dehydrate).

FP and Chas? I know FP went on a trip and hope we will begin hearing from him soon. Chas seemed to keep to himself for a long time till we wrested him from silence. I really enjoyed and benefited from both of them and hope we will begin seeing posts from them soon. I imagine many who are not quite as optimistic about the investment grow tired and become more silent. I have felt that way.

Good chatting drox.

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Not an assumption Drox and I'm certainly not on the wrong path. There is no fear in Christ no matter what the situation. I never said that we shouldn't take care of those that are financially able to take care of themselves. I do know that there is a better way than what has been passed. We do need to reform healthcare. I will not be told I should go off in a corner and take a pill because someone thinks I'm to old or the cost will be weighed against the value of my life good or bad, healthy or terminal. The bill did not need to be crammed down my throat. If my parents were alive they would have suffered because of Obama Healthcare.

We are to fight evil and the Obama healthcare is full of evil. Need I explain more?

I am not ashamed of anything I say to anyone. There is no offence in Christ. And I know who I am in Christ. I will stand for the Gospel, the Word and the Constitution of the United States. Lastly you do not know my walk in Christ so don't go there.

And God bless you too. We will disagree I'm sure in things of the world and likely things of God.

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