Bullion Gold vs. Historic Gold Coins

[GJM]

Wanted to inquire on the accuracy of my understanding about purchasing gold. There are essentially two ways you can buy gold. The first is bullion gold which is sold in bars or coins, such as the American Eagle, Canadian Maple Leaf, or the South African Krugerrand. Usually the rate you pay for this type of gold is 5% over the spot rate of gold as of that day in the market. Some dealers attempt to steer people from this market by stating that with a stroke of a pen the President could require citizens to turn in their gold as President Roosevelt did in 1933 (they were paid $20.67 per ounce). It is important to note the reason Roosevelt signed this order was that the country was on the gold standard and if people were exchanging their dollars for gold, the government's own gold supply would be diminished. In 1971, the United States went off the gold standard.

The second way you can buy gold is by purchasing historic gold coins that have additional collector's value beyond their gold content. These coins were exempt to being "confiscated" by the government. However, these coins usually have a 30-35% markup spread over the spot price of gold. If one was purchasing gold as insurance or an hedge against a falling dollar and inflation, with a spread of 30 to 35%, gold would have to rise from $1099 an ounce to $1483 before you would break even. Isn't that a lot to pay simply to protect against government confiscation, especially since we are no longer on the gold standard? Appreciate your input on this.

[djuggler]

I would like to learn comments to this myself. good question, in my opinion!

[puzhalsta]

IMO. Just buy loose gold coin. Don't mess with the collector coins. It may be true that the collector coins are worth more, but only to the right buyer. When you need to cash in that gold, you need the right buyer to justify the additional premium paid.

[CDM]

Okay - Need to get my posts up so I can chat - this was actually my question-post that I asked my wife to post! Appreciate any info you all could share.

[Norm Walker]

Good questions, I wish I knew the answer. I know if the DInar ever RVs I am going to put probably 30% of my portfolio in to Gold. I am concerned about the dollar getting weak, and see a lot of people rushing to gold for safety.

[Don Paul]

If the whole idea is to buy gold as a hedge, i highly recomend bullion versus collectible. In a pinch, and if the dollar falls or whatever, the demand for collectible coins will probably fall accordingly if you look at history.

A collectible coin is only worth what another collector is willing to pay for it. Do you want to wait for that collector to come knocking at your door, or do you maybe just need to be able to cash it in anywhere in the world at any jeweler no questions asked for spot price minus a couple of points immediately?

A solid one ounce gold coin in 1920 could buy you a suit, shoes sirt and tie. guess what that same ounze will buy you today>

Did you know that just 5 GRAMS of gold could of bought you a house in 1940?

I like the idea of having a couple of coins hidden somewhere in my briefcase when I travel overseas. Its a great, get-out-of-jail item if something goes really awry. In south america, they will throw you in jail for really idiotic stuff, especially if you look like a tourist, and unless you have COLD HARD CASH on hand, they arent letting you go. Something similar happened to a close friend while he was travelling in Mexico. He was involved in a small traffic accident and they (local cops) were salivating at putting an americano in their grasp. They wouldnt let him go to the nearest ATM either... It was their golden goose. I call it 'skin tax'. But comming up with a gold coin is second best.... and luckily he had his briefcase with him...

In texas, and I think ohio, you also dont pay tax (local) for purchases over 1000 dollars worth of gold, wich is another 8 per cent savings and usually covers the over spot fee you pay in other states alone, and usually just take a written receipt with your name. Kinda hard to input that into a national gold registry, dont you think?

write me privately and Ill give you a suggestion on how to travel with it inconspicously

Edited September 16, 2010 by Don Paul

[Don Paul]

take a look at what GREESPAN himself had to say about gold before he went to the dark side...

were talking about bullion gold here..

Its a great eye opener written by someone who at least at that time, was being forthright about things in the world.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Greenspan on Gold (1966)

FORWARD by Gary North | August 29, 2003

You may already have read Alan Greenspan's essay, "Gold and Economic Freedom," which was published in Ayn Rand's "Objectivist" newsletter in 1966, and reprinted in her book, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, in 1967.

Greenspan has never publicly retracted a word of this essay.

This essay is a good introduction to the government's war on gold. It summarizes the basic issue: the comparative liberty that a government-guaranteed gold coin standard offers to a society. A gold coin standard places a restraint on the government's ability to defraud the public through monetary inflation.

The problem is, a government-guaranteed gold standard is guaranteed by the government. As I like to say, a government-guaranteed gold standard isn't worth the paper it's written on. But, for as long as the government redeems its paper money or its credit money on demand – in gold coins of a fixed weight and fineness, at a fixed exchange rate with the government's money – the public does possess a lever of power against the government: the threat of a "bank run" against the biggest bank, the government's central bank. In the case of the United States, this is the Federal Reserve System. How ironic that Alan Greenspan is the chairman of the FED's Board of Governors.

Please note: Greenspan can speak in English when he wants to. He is not confined to what James Grant has called central banker Esperanto.

END

_____________________________________________________

GOLD AND ECONOMIC FREEDOM

by Alan Greenspan

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense – perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire – that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.

In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.

Whether the single medium is gold, silver, seashells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of World War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange. If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's divisions of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.

A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, the banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security of his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.

When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth. When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one – so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.

A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post-World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.

But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline – argued economic interventionists – why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely – it was claimed – there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.

When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates. The "Fed" succeeded; it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market, triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.

With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression. If the gold standard had not existed, they argued, Britain's abandonment of gold payments in 1931 would not have caused the failure of banks all over the world. (The irony was that since 1913, we had been, not on a gold standard, but on what may be termed "a mixed gold standard"; yet it is gold that took the blame.) But the opposition to the gold standard in any form – from a growing number of welfare-state advocates – was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.

Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset. But government bonds are not backed by tangible wealth, only by the government's promise to pay out of future tax revenues, and cannot easily be absorbed by the financial markets. A large volume of new government bonds can be sold to the public only at progressively higher interest rates. Thus, government deficit spending under a gold standard is severely limited. The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit. They have created paper reserves in the form of government bonds which – through a complex series of steps – the banks accept in place of tangible assets and treat as if they were an actual deposit, i.e., as the equivalent of what was formerly a deposit of gold. The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets. The law of supply and demand is not to be conned. As the supply of money (of claims) increases relative to the supply of tangible assets in the economy, prices must eventually rise. Thus the earnings saved by the productive members of the society lose value in terms of goods. When the economy's books are finally balanced, one finds that this loss in value represents the goods purchased by the government for welfare or other purposes with the money proceeds of the government bonds financed by bank credit expansion.

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.

END

[Don Paul]

take a look at this article on CNBC that just came out today

Gold to Surge 50% to 'Real' Record?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27665502

[Jac]

Thank you, Don Paul, this is amazing information that everyone should carefully considered.

Blessings.

[Don Paul]

thanks Jac

considering the number of postings you have made on this site, its a compliment coming from you.

[Deathmonkey]

Don Paul is right on with his view on bullion vs collectible. Something else to remember is the premiums certain coins bring in compared to the other bullions. One example are American Gold Eagles. They bring in well above spot, and more than any other bullion on the current market. Current premiums (@1270 spot) are running about +50 or more for 1oz AGE's, where as Suisse Credits and KR's may be getting +35. What you need to ask yourself is what do you personally want in your possession.

Oh, and another piece of info that confuses people is the fact that these bullion coins are 1oz fine gold included, but KR's and AGE's are actually 22kt. Many assume they are 24kt because of the 1oz gold included in making them. That is why when you weigh them, they actually weigh more than 1 troy oz. The most popular 22kt's are AGE's and KR's. The most popular 24kt are Pandas, Maples, Kangaroo's, and 1 oz bars such as Suisse Credits or Suisse Pamps.