Wall Street Pounded as Central Bank Hopes Fade

[jpbaz1960]

Wall Street Pounded as Central Bank Hopes Fade

By Adam Samson

Published August 02, 2012

| FOXBusiness

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FOX Business: The Power to Prosper

Wall Street followed European markets sharply lower on Thursday as news that central banks on both sides of the Atlantic won't be taking immediate action to prop up struggling global economies shook traders' confidence.

Today's Markets

As of 2:20 p.m. ET, the Dow Jones Industrial Average futures dropped 152 points, or 1.2%, to 12819, the S&P 500 sunk 16.9 points, or 1.2%, to 1358 and the Nasdaq Composite fell 21.2 points, or 0.73%, to 2899.

The Federal Reserve on Wednesday held U.S. monetary policy steady, hinting more strongly than before that more action may come down the line if the economy deteriorates further. The Bank of England and European Central Bank followed suit on Thursday, keeping their interest rates and quantitative easing program on hold.

ECB President Mario Draghi last week hinted that the central bank is willing to do what it takes to stem the debt crisis that has gripped eurozone economies for more than two years. However, at a press conference Thursday he made more allusions to action, without actually announcing any specific measures. Draghi said the ECB may begin outright open market operations, which could mean the central bank will step into beleaguered bond sovereign debt markets. He also suggested eurozone countries activate the bloc's rescue funds for potential bond buying. Still, the commentary fell short among world trading desks.

"While we were initially encouraged by these comments our encouragement quickly gave way to reservations," Dan Greenhaus, chief global strategist at BTIG wrote in an email. "After all, these remain promises. Investors are tired of promises."

Indeed, bourses in Spain and Italy ended the ay close to 5% to the downside.

Elsewhere in Europe, Spain sold roughly $3.8 billion in 10-year debt at interest rates that were nearly 1 percentage point below where it sold the same bonds at the last auction. Yields were still the second-highest ever paid by the country, according to a report by Reuters.

That good news faded quickly as well after the commentary from the ECB. The yield on Spain's 10-year bonds on the secondary market jumped 0.23-percentage point to 6.97%, a painfully high level.

On the U.S. front, planned layoffs by U.S. firms fell 1.9% in July from the month before to 36,855, according to a report by outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas. Later in the morning, traders will get fresh data on weekly jobless claims. Economists expect 370,000 individuals to have applied for first-time jobless benefits last week, up from 353,000 the week before. An unusual trend in U.S. auto plant retooling has caused volatility in the weekly reports recently.

The big monthly jobs report is on tap for Friday. Economists forecast the U.S. economy to have tacked on 100,000 jobs in July from June, with the unemployment rate holding steady at 8.2%.

In commodities, oil sold off. The benchmark contract traded in New York dropped $1.67, or 1.9%, to $87.24 a barrel. Wholesale New York Harbor gasoline jumped 1.5% to $2.876 a gallon.

In metals, gold fell $18.20, or 1.1%, to $1,589 a troy ounce.

Foreign Markets

The Euro Stoxx 50 dropped 3% to 2363, the English FTSE 100 slid 0.88% to 5662 and the German DAX sold off by 2.2% to 6606.

In Asia, the Japanese Nikkei 225 edged up by 0.13% to 8653 and the Chinese Hang Seng fell 0.66% to 19690.

Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2012/08/02/stocks-sink-after-ecb-disappoints/print#ixzz22QNxQWl0

[SocalDinar]

Just print some more cash, we all know how well that works!!

Remember what Mr President said. the private sector is doing fine!!

Thanks JP

[sandstorm]

Just print some more cash, we all know how well that works!!

Remember what Mr President said. the private sector is doing fine!!

Thanks JP

Yep. But he knows its not. he is systematically dismantling and reforming this country. scary stuff.

[SocalDinar]

Yep. But he knows its not. he is systematically dismantling and reforming this country. scary stuff.

Hello Sandstorm,

You are just being very respectful to the office of President.

We both know the Mods here would surely ban us both if we said how we really feel. %#$&^#

[zigmeister]

Oh come on folks, our economy has been going down the rabbit hole since Bush! You can't fix something overnight that took years to screw up!

[yota691]

Oh come on folks, our economy has been going down the rabbit hole since Bush! You can't fix something overnight that took years to screw up!

How long can America stand on Her 2 feet, using your wore out excuse, for all this hope and change you were promise! Lets see I will cut the spending in half, I will read line by line, but it was u have to pass it 2 see what in it. Bla bla How about Vote on his record!! Bla.. bla..

[Crow]

And remember this comes from a president that smoked dope in his teenage years and never held.. Had a real job!! I have to be subjected to random drug testing for my job... So should the government because most of what they say leaves me to believe they are on a real good high!!

[welcome007]

And remember this comes from a president that smoked dope in his teenage years and never held.. Had a real job!! I have to be subjected to random drug testing for my job... So should the government because most of what they say leaves me to believe they are on a real good high!!

You are bit*hing because the prez smoked weed when he was in college, And you use that to complain about the random drug test you have at your job??

[Crow]

Oh come on folks, our economy has been going down the rabbit hole since Bush! You can't fix something overnight that took years to screw up!

ZIG ARE YOU SERIOUS BRO??? After 3 TRILLION DOLLAR- 3 years- numerous bailouts and loans......HELL YEAH!!

Obama has taken what bush did in eight years ant quadrupled it in 3 1/2!!!

Bush was not the best, but atleast he knew what the hell he was doing!! Obama is once again on the telepromtor because he went off it for a minute and made the gaffer that people didnt build their business!!! This president is a moron and he surrounded himself with even bigger ones!

You are bit*hing because the prez smoked weed when he was in college, And you use that to complain about the random drug test you have at your job??

No welcome... I'm saying Obama never held a job, so of course the private sector is doing fine!!! Also they need to have random testing done for congress cause they are all stone heads!! I personally have no problem being drug tested at all.. I'm clean :-). PS READ THE LAST LINE OF THAT POST WELCOME

Edited August 3, 2012 by Crow

[zigmeister]

ZIG ARE YOU SERIOUS BRO??? After 3 TRILLION DOLLAR- 3 years- numerous bailouts and loans......HELL YEAH!!

Obama has taken what bush did in eight years ant quadrupled it in 3 1/2!!!

Bush was not the best, but atleast he knew what the hell he was doing!! Obama is once again on the telepromtor because he went off it for a minute and made the gaffer that people didnt build their business!!! This president is a moron and he surrounded himself with even bigger ones!

No welcome... I'm saying Obama never held a job, so of course the private sector is doing fine!!! Also they need to have random testing done for congress cause they are all stone heads!! I personally have no problem being drug tested at all.. I'm clean :-). PS READ THE LAST LINE OF THAT POST WELCOME

Bush left a mess.

[Hawaii 50]

Hell yeah bush left a mess! Obama isn't the best for the job but he's trying his best. The truth is no matter who takes office it will not be fixed overnight thats for sure.

[SocalDinar]

Oh come on folks, our economy has been going down the rabbit hole since Bush! You can't fix something overnight that took years to screw up!

GM Zig,

No one man or party can be blamed for the economic problems we face today. But surely we all can remember better days. I can.

I started my own business in 2005 with no employees. By 2008 I employeed 10 people with an above average wage for my trade. I paid for health care and holidays.

I paid vacations and for bonus's for all at the end of the year. Fast forward to today. Back to no employees but surviving.

Now we business owners are villified by this administration for being greedy. The public is being brainwashed into believing that business men are evil and greedy

Our current government is using this to transform this country. Most employees dont understand the taxes we business owners pay. When I pay 50 % of an emplyees SS and medicare is that not a tax. We owners pay this tax on ourselves times 2. When I pay the EDD a percentage for each hour worked is that not a tax? Are not all my business licenses taxes? Are the government certifications required to the EPA not a tax? Recently started paying for Federal Unemployment tax.

I have no faith in our Government today from the local, state and Federal levels.

“You can’t make a weak man strong by making a strong man weak”

Abraham Lincoln

[Crow]

Bush left a mess.

Agree he left it messy... This dude us gonna leave it condemed

[yota691]

Hell yeah bush left a mess! Obama isn't the best for the job but he's trying his best. The truth is no matter who takes office it will not be fixed overnight thats for sure.

Office of the Press Secretary

October 9, 2008

Setting the Record Straight: Six Years of Unheeded Warnings for GSE Reform

The Washington Times Fails To Research The Administration's Efforts To Reform Fannie Mae And Freddie Mac

White House News

Setting the Record Straight

In Focus: Economy

Today, the Washington Times incorrectly accused the White House of ignoring warnings of trouble ahead for government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) and neglecting to "adopt any reform until this summer," when it was too late. "Neither the White House nor Congress heeded the warnings, Fannie and Freddie retained strong bipartisan support during the 1990s and early part of this decade." (Editorial, "Hear, See And Speak No Evil About Fannie And Freddie," The Washington Times, 10/9/08)

Over the past six years, the President and his Administration have not only warned of the systemic consequences of failure to reform GSEs but also put forward thoughtful plans to reduce the risk that either Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac would encounter such difficulties. In fact, it was Congress that flatly rejected President Bush's call more than five years ago to reform the GSEs. Over the years, the President's repeated attempts to reform the supervision of these entities were thwarted by the legislative maneuvering of those who emphatically denied there were problems with the GSEs.

2001

April: The Administration's FY02 budget declares that the size of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is "a potential problem," because "financial trouble of a large GSE could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting Federally insured entities and economic activity." (2002 Budget Analytic Perspectives, pg. 142)

2002

May: The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) calls for the disclosure and corporate governance principles contained in the President's 10-point plan for corporate responsibility to apply to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. (OMB Prompt Letter to OFHEO, 5/29/02)

2003

February: The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) releases a report explaining that unexpected problems at a GSE could immediately spread into financial sectors beyond the housing market.

September: Then-Treasury Secretary John Snow testifies before the House Financial Services Committee to recommend that Congress enact "legislation to create a new Federal agency to regulate and supervise the financial activities of our housing-related government sponsored enterprises" and set prudent and appropriate minimum capital adequacy requirements.

September: Then-House Financial Services Committee Ranking Member Barney Frank (D-MA) strongly disagrees with the Administration's assessment, saying "these two entities – Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac – are not facing any kind of financial crisis … The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." (Stephen Labaton, "New Agency Proposed To Oversee Freddie Mac And Fannie Mae," The New York Times, 9/11/03)

October: Senator Thomas Carper (D-DE) refuses to acknowledge any necessity for GSE reforms, saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." (Sen. Carper, Hearing of Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, 10/16/03)

November: Then-Council of the Economic Advisers (CEA) Chairman Greg Mankiw explains that any "legislation to reform GSE regulation should empower the new regulator with sufficient strength and credibility to reduce systemic risk." To reduce the potential for systemic instability, the regulator would have "broad authority to set both risk-based and minimum capital standards" and "receivership powers necessary to wind down the affairs of a troubled GSE." (N. Gregory Mankiw, Remarks At The Conference Of State Bank Supervisors State Banking Summit And Leadership, 11/6/03)

2004

February: The President's FY05 Budget again highlights the risk posed by the explosive growth of the GSEs and their low levels of required capital and calls for creation of a new, world-class regulator: "The Administration has determined that the safety and soundness regulators of the housing GSEs lack sufficient power and stature to meet their responsibilities, and therefore … should be replaced with a new strengthened regulator." (2005 Budget Analytic Perspectives, pg. 83)

February: Then-CEA Chairman Mankiw cautions Congress to "not take [the financial market's] strength for granted." Again, the call from the Administration was to reduce this risk by "ensuring that the housing GSEs are overseen by an effective regulator." (N. Gregory Mankiw, Op-Ed, "Keeping Fannie And Freddie's House In Order," Financial Times, 2/24/04)

April: Rep. Frank ignores the warnings, accusing the Administration of creating an "artificial issue." At a speech to the Mortgage Bankers Association conference, Rep. Frank said "people tend to pay their mortgages. I don't think we are in any remote danger here. This focus on receivership, I think, is intended to create fears that aren't there." ("Frank: GSE Failure A Phony Issue," American Banker, 4/21/04)

June: Then-Treasury Deputy Secretary Samuel Bodman spotlights the risk posed by the GSEs and calls for reform, saying "We do not have a world-class system of supervision of the housing government sponsored enterprises (GSEs), even though the importance of the housing financial system that the GSEs serve demands the best in supervision to ensure the long-term vitality of that system. Therefore, the Administration has called for a new, first class, regulatory supervisor for the three housing GSEs: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banking System." (Samuel Bodman, House Financial Services Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations Testimony, 6/16/04)

2005

April: Then-Secretary Snow repeats his call for GSE reform, saying "Events that have transpired since I testified before this Committee in 2003 reinforce concerns over the systemic risks posed by the GSEs and further highlight the need for real GSE reform to ensure that our housing finance system remains a strong and vibrant source of funding for expanding homeownership opportunities in America … Half-measures will only exacerbate the risks to our financial system." (Secretary John W. Snow, "Testimony Before The U.S. House Financial Services Committee," 4/13/05)

July: Then-Minority Leader Harry Reid rejects legislation reforming GSEs, "while I favor improving oversight by our federal housing regulators to ensure safety and soundness, we cannot pass legislation that could limit Americans from owning homes and potentially harm our economy in the process." ("Dems Rip New Fannie Mae Regulatory Measure," United Press International, 7/28/05)

2007

August: President Bush emphatically calls on Congress to pass a reform package for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, saying "first things first when it comes to those two institutions. Congress needs to get them reformed, get them streamlined, get them focused, and then I will consider other options." (President George W. Bush, Press Conference, the White House, 8/9/07)

August: Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Chairman Christopher Dodd ignores the President's warnings and calls on him to "immediately reconsider his ill-advised" position. (Eric Dash, "Fannie Mae's Offer To Help Ease Credit Squeeze Is Rejected, As Critics Complain Of Opportunism," The New York Times, 8/11/07)

December: President Bush again warns Congress of the need to pass legislation reforming GSEs, saying "These institutions provide liquidity in the mortgage market that benefits millions of homeowners, and it is vital they operate safely and operate soundly. So I've called on Congress to pass legislation that strengthens independent regulation of the GSEs – and ensures they focus on their important housing mission. The GSE reform bill passed by the House earlier this year is a good start. But the Senate has not acted. And the United States Senate needs to pass this legislation soon." (President George W. Bush, Discusses Housing, the White House, 12/6/07)

2008

February: Assistant Treasury Secretary David Nason reiterates the urgency of reforms, saying "A new regulatory structure for the housing GSEs is essential if these entities are to continue to perform their public mission successfully." (David Nason, Testimony On Reforming GSE Regulation, Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 2/7/08)

March: President Bush calls on Congress to take action and "move forward with reforms on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They need to continue to modernize the FHA, as well as allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to homeowners to refinance their mortgages." (President George W. Bush, Remarks To The Economic Club Of New York, New York, NY, 3/14/08)

April: President Bush urges Congress to pass the much needed legislation and "modernize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. [There are] constructive things Congress can do that will encourage the housing market to correct quickly by … helping people stay in their homes." (President George W. Bush, Meeting With Cabinet, the White House, 4/14/08)

May: President Bush issues several pleas to Congress to pass legislation reforming Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac before the situation deteriorates further.

"Americans are concerned about making their mortgage payments and keeping their homes. Yet Congress has failed to pass legislation I have repeatedly requested to modernize the Federal Housing Administration that will help more families stay in their homes, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure they focus on their housing mission, and allow state housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to refinance sub-prime loans." (President George W. Bush, Radio Address, 5/3/08)

"[T]he government ought to be helping creditworthy people stay in their homes. And one way we can do that – and Congress is making progress on this – is the reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. That reform will come with a strong, independent regulator." (President George W. Bush, Meeting With The Secretary Of The Treasury, the White House, 5/19/08)

"Congress needs to pass legislation to modernize the Federal Housing Administration, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure they focus on their housing mission, and allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to refinance subprime loans." (President George W. Bush, Radio Address, 5/31/08)

June: As foreclosure rates continued to rise in the first quarter, the President once again asks Congress to take the necessary measures to address this challenge, saying "we need to pass legislation to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." (President George W. Bush, Remarks At Swearing In Ceremony For Secretary Of Housing And Urban Development, Washington, D.C., 6/6/08)

July: Congress heeds the President's call for action and passes reform legislation for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as it becomes clear that the institutions are failing.

September: Democrats in Congress forget their previous objections to GSE reforms, as Senator Dodd questions "why weren't we doing more, why did we wait almost a year before there were any significant steps taken to try to deal with this problem? … I have a lot of questions about where was the administration over the last eight years." (Dawn Kopecki, "Fannie Mae, Freddie 'House Of Cards' Prompts Takeover," Bloomberg, 9/9/08)

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/10/20081009-10.html

Edited August 4, 2012 by yota691

[eaglefan]

Bush left a mess.

It's nothing compared to what Obama will leave.

[Maggie123]

Agree he left it messy... This dude us gonna leave it condemed

Hello Crow.

Might I say that when the banks crawled into bed with the US government over 10 years ago "Thats when we were condemned?

Maybe you actually think Obama had the keys to the back door clear back then? eh?

[zigmeister]

Hello Crow.

Might I say that when the banks crawled into bed with the US government over 10 years ago "Thats when we were condemned?

Maybe you actually think Obama had the keys to the back door clear back then? eh?

Maggie you hit the nail on the head! So good to see someone with common sense!

[Maggie123]

Love You Too, Pie.

I don't really know how "common sense" helps these days.

I wish it did!

Thanks Ziggie.

[zigmeister]

Love You Too, Pie.

I don't really know how "common sense" helps these days.

I wish it did!

Thanks Ziggie.

Common sense may take you as far as the grocery store, but in my book it is always worth listening to and thinking about.

[Carrello]

Maggie you hit the nail on the head! So good to see someone with common sense!

President Obama has created more jobs in the first six months of this year than Bush did in three. Facts are facts.

Ten things President Obama managed to achieve within his first year:

■Ten: President Obama has slowed down the recession. Nobody is talking depression anymore, and some are talking recovery. Trying to catch this economy from crashing was like trying to catch a 100 ton boulder dropped off a 70-story building. The inertia alone is going to push you backwards until you can slow the force. Most wouldn’t even step in front of a boulder coming at them like this. Obama stepped in the gap and stuck to a measured recovery plan of stimulus dollars and labor force transition.

■Nine: President Obama saved Wall Street. And Wall Street tried to punk him by paying itself first. He exposed the absence of regulatory oversight on Wall Street, and economic and financial investment reform is being discussed like never before.

■Eight: President Obama saved the collapse of the American automotive industry. By making GM restructure before bailing them out, and putting incentive money to help the industry, he saved the industry. People want to make jokes about “cash for clunkers” but the automakers aren’t laughing. They’re thanking him.

■Seven: President Obama shifted the focus of the war from Iraq to Afghanistan, and putting the emphasis on reducing terrorism where it should have been all along-but now they want to say he’s making war, not peace. Well, at least he didn’t destabilize a whole region on a false premise. It’s better than what we had.

■Six: President Obama relaxed Anti-American tensions throughout the world. This was more serious than the previous administration was willing to let on. The President made good on his promise to make a major address on American-Muslim relations and he did it in a Muslim country, showing a good faith that America hadn’t shown in a while.

■Five: President Obama closed the prisoner “torture camp” at Guantanamo Bay. Holding prisoners for eight years without charging them was acceptable under the previous administration. It is not acceptable under this administration. Obama’s next challenge is what to do with the detainees.

■Four: President Obama has made the environment a national priority, and a primary source for job creation. The era of polluting industrialists is over, and with a President that understands the benefits of green conversion, America can become a leader in the industry of the future.

■Three: President Obama has made education a national priority by putting emphasis and money behind new ideas like charter schools, but speaking directly to school children in telling them they have to do their part. It’s what any President should be encouraging but Obama’s so popular, he was accused of trying to “socialize” or “proselytize” the children. It’s a sad day when the President of the United States can’t speak to school children because their parent’s views conflict.

■Two: President Obama is on the verge of passing universal health care, with a public option, to insure everybody in America has care when they are sick. He’s doing it, despite vilification of ideologues and while in the midst of an H1N1 epidemic where millions could get sick this winter. The people feel him on this.

■One: President Obama has restored credibility to the American Presidency where the world is looking to him to lead America out of unilateralism and back into multilateral global cooperation. The Nobel Peace Prize was an acknowledgment that Obama had led and is leading a non-violent cultural revolution in America. Everybody, except for a few in America, can see the change. Still, the world understands what happened one year ago, and they thought they’d never see such a shift occur. The election of Obama helped the world see the light that America wasn’t ready to self-destruct.

Not bad, for less than a year in office. People need to stop complaining that he hasn’t done enough. Obama was elected President. He wasn’t elected Jesus. Like Al Sharpton said on Meet The Press, “we now realize that Obama doesn’t walk on water, but he’s still the fastest swimmer in America

.

Federal Income Taxes on Middle-Income Families Remain Near Historic Lows

PDF of this report (4pp.)

By Chuck Marr

Updated April 2, 2012

Federal taxes on middle-income Americans are near historic lows,[1] according to the latest available data. That’s true both for federal income taxes and total federal taxes.[2]

■Income taxes: A family of four in the exact middle of the income spectrum will pay only 5.6 percent of its 2011 income in federal income taxes, according to a new analysis by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center. [3] Average income tax rates for these typical families have been lower during the Bush and Obama Administrations than at any time since the 1950s, as Figure 1 shows. (As discussed below, 2009 and 2010 were particularly low because of the temporary Making Work Pay Tax Credit.)

■Overall federal taxes: Overall federal taxes — which include income as well as payroll and excise taxes — on middle-income households are near their lowest levels in decades, according to the latest data from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

[zigmeister]

Thank you Ms. C.....Another woman with common sense, she bakes cakes with mouse icing....but hey I love her anyway!

[Maggie123]

Carrello, I salute you.

First for honoring our president. Something I have not seen in a long time. Second for being you.

"Not bad, for less than a year in office. People need to stop complaining that he hasn’t done enough. Obama was elected President. He wasn’t elected Jesus. Like Al Sharpton said on Meet The Press, “we now realize that Obama doesn’t walk on water, but he’s still the fastest swimmer in America"

Yeppers!

[zigmeister]

Carrello, I salute you.

First for honoring our president. Something I have not seen in a long time. Second for being you.

"Not bad, for less than a year in office. People need to stop complaining that he hasn’t done enough. Obama was elected President. He wasn’t elected Jesus. Like Al Sharpton said on Meet The Press, “we now realize that Obama doesn’t walk on water, but he’s still the fastest swimmer in America"

Yeppers!

You two so rock!!! I am going to hide behind you awesome women when incoming comes in..... and of course my Kamel too.

[Carrello]

You two so rock!!! I am going to hide behind you awesome women when incoming comes in..... and of course my Kamel too.

We got you! Just follow the mouse drippings......that was the sweetest typo I ever made.

PS your Kamel is as fickle as Romney...you had better stick with us.

[jg1]

Oh come on folks, our economy has been going down the rabbit hole since Bush! You can't fix something overnight that took years to screw up!

No, it was Clinton.

The Community Reinvestment Act was set up to say to the bank regulators: Look, you guys go in and look at these banks and tell them, you got to take some of your money and invest it in inner cities and neighborhoods, and with people who otherwise would not get it so they have a chance to build homes, to build businesses, to create jobs, to build neighborhoods.

In the 20-year history of the Community Investment Act, 85 percent-plus the money loaned out under it to poor inner city neighborhoods has been loaned in the five years since I've been President. "

President Bill Clinton

January 21, 1998

Bush tried to overturn it but with a Democrat led Senate and house, pritty sure, there was no hope.