Why is Everyone So Afraid of the IRS?

[CarbonCoyote]

Are you liable for the ever dreaded Income Tax? I guess you are IF you are a government employee, who's receiving a government paycheck on the 1st and 15th, as stated in their own code here:

USC Title 26 ss 6331 and read Section A, we get this:

Excerpt: " Levy may be made upon the accrued salary or wages of any officer, employee, or elected official, of the United States, the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of the United States or the District of Columbia, by serving a notice of levy on the employer (as defined in section 3401(d)) of such officer, employee, or elected official." .................... Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6331

Are you an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States? If the answer is yes, then by all means you are liable, but what about the rest of us?

What if you own your own business, and the state or federal government are demanding you collect sales taxes from your customers for products sold or services rendered? Has the thought ever crossed your mind, that they are asking you to perform some function of government by collecting a tax for them, and that takes time; it takes money; it takes paperwork and staff, it's a burden upon you daily, and it is ultimately taking away from you time to actually make a living? If so, has it ever crossed your mind that you should possibly be charging them an Administrative Fee for collecting their tax, which is costing you time and money?

Or do you make it a standard operating procedure to work for free?

Wasn't slavery abolished? Aren't you entitled to be paid for your time? Does the fact that "everyone's doing it" make it law; or make it right? Take a peak at this and listen to the shows in the links and read the information provided in the articles links and the links within those articles, and maybe-just maybe, by the end of the night, you'll have one of those Holy **** Moments, and a Face Palm will be justified

http://www.dailypaul.com/245362/have-a-business-and-the-govt-wants-you-to-collect-a-sales-tax-is-it-time-you-started-charging-them-an-administrative-fee

If any so called 'tax professionals' wish to chime in and debunk this, I'll do my best to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge ( I advise you to study the material I have provided before you speak), and this is not legal or tax advice. Rather a topic that needs to be addressed so we can find out where the cards ACTUALLY do fall. I may not reply for awhile, I'm busy with other stuff and limited on "sitting in front of the computer time tonight". I'll let this thread heat up a bit, this is sure to be a show you won't want to miss. In the posts that follow over the course of the next few days, you will come to understand for sure, without a doubt, if YOU are liable for that tax, or any other tax for that matter. I'm sure we will have some professionals chime in here, so this should be a good learning experience for all of us. I am not a professional, just a common man who enjoys research, so do your own due diligence, after all, it is YOUR life, and YOUR money.

Let the Dance Begin.

Edited July 21, 2012 by CarbonCoyote

[WorkerBee]

Crickets.....A debate on his would be an interesting read.

[cris]

Are you liable for the ever dreaded Income Tax? I guess you are IF you are a government employee, who's receiving a government paycheck on the 1st and 15th, as stated in their own code here:

USC Title 26 ss 6331 and read Section A, we get this:

Excerpt: " Levy may be made upon the accrued salary or wages of any officer, employee, or elected official, of the United States, the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of the United States or the District of Columbia, by serving a notice of levy on the employer (as defined in section 3401(d)) of such officer, employee, or elected official." .................... Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6331

Are you an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States? If the answer is yes, then by all means you are liable, but what about the rest of us?

What if you own your own business, and the state or federal government are demanding you collect sales taxes from your customers for products sold or services rendered? Has the thought ever crossed your mind, that they are asking you to perform some function of government by collecting a tax for them, and that takes time; it takes money; it takes paperwork and staff, it's a burden upon you daily, and it is ultimately taking away from you time to actually make a living? If so, has it ever crossed your mind that you should possibly be charging them an Administrative Fee for collecting their tax, which is costing you time and money?

Or do you make it a standard operating procedure to work for free?

Wasn't slavery abolished? Aren't you entitled to be paid for your time? Does the fact that "everyone's doing it" make it law; or make it right? Take a peak at this and listen to the shows in the links and read the information provided in the articles links and the links within those articles, and maybe-just maybe, by the end of the night, you'll have one of those Holy **** Moments, and a Face Palm will be justified

http://www.dailypaul.com/245362/have-a-business-and-the-govt-wants-you-to-collect-a-sales-tax-is-it-time-you-started-charging-them-an-administrative-fee

If any so called 'tax professionals' wish to chime in and debunk this, I'll do my best to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge ( I advise you to study the material I have provided before you speak), and this is not legal or tax advice. Rather a topic that needs to be addressed so we can find out where the cards ACTUALLY do fall. I may not reply for awhile, I'm busy with other stuff and limited on "sitting in front of the computer time tonight". I'll let this thread heat up a bit, this is sure to be a show you won't want to miss. In the posts that follow over the course of the next few days, you will come to understand for sure, without a doubt, if YOU are liable for that tax, or any other tax for that matter. I'm sure we will have some professionals chime in here, so this should be a good learning experience for all of us. I am not a professional, just a common man who enjoys research, so do your own due diligence, after all, it is YOUR life, and YOUR money.

Let the Dance Begin.

This is the most interesting post I've seen in a very

long time.....Lots of thought provoking info at the link.

You may not have gotten responses yet because there is

a lot to digest, I do like the F-You attitude towards the

Govt though

[BrokeNoMore]

As far as I know, anyone who "opts out" of the "volunteer tax system" and gives the IRS the finger pretty much loses. Not a single victory on record. It may be true, but there's no chance an Obama regime would allow you, me, or anyone else to exert their "rights". Every attempt to fight this fight pretty much exemplifies how much our "freedom" is actually illusion.

Legal or not, our tax system is run like the Gestapo.

[desimo]

I know most people fear the IRS because they have no controls. They seem to do just what they want to do without regard or regulation. You cannot fight them and their word is the final word. If you fail to submit a tax return they can and will simply submit one for you. They are the only agency who are able to take house and possession and no Constitutional protections exist. While the is not debtor prison they can still have a person imprisoned.

[Sage449]

CarbonCoyote - just asking and not being snarky here, my first thought as I read your thread, is have you tried it or done this?

edited to mean "have you done this - have you tried opting out of filing taxes?"

[cris]

I dont want to speak for CarbonCoyote, he will have his own answers,

however...The way I read this article is that a person can charge the IRS

or any other Govt Agency for work that they demand....at the point of a gun

(metaphorically speaking) Fines, confiscation, prison (literally speaking)

which could involve guns.

This is an Oh **** moment for me.....The question in my mind, because

I havent had time to read everything is, has anyone tried this?

Has anyone succeeded in billing the Govt, whatever agency, for work that

they demand? As a business owner, I spend a great amount of time 'complying'

with increasingly stupid regulations.

My time is damn valuable....I think 5k per hour is a reasonable rate to charge

to any Agency that thinks they can simply demand my obedience.

The next question would be, If they refuse to pay my rates do I take them

to Civil Court and get a judgement? If they show up, they must argue for their

assertion that I must work for them for free (slavery) If they dont show, I get a

monetary judgement against them.

[CarbonCoyote]

As far as I know, anyone who "opts out" of the "volunteer tax system" and gives the IRS the finger pretty much loses. Not a single victory on record. It may be true, but there's no chance an Obama regime would allow you, me, or anyone else to exert their "rights". Every attempt to fight this fight pretty much exemplifies how much our "freedom" is actually illusion.

Legal or not, our tax system is run like the Gestapo.

Really? The IRS loses a lot of cases, take a look for yourself Google Search Page of IRS Losses.

I know most people fear the IRS because they have no controls. They seem to do just what they want to do without regard or regulation. You cannot fight them and their word is the final word. If you fail to submit a tax return they can and will simply submit one for you. They are the only agency who are able to take house and possession and no Constitutional protections exist. While the is not debtor prison they can still have a person imprisoned.

Really? Their word is not the final word, as seen here again: Google Search Page of IRS Losses.

CarbonCoyote - just asking and not being snarky here, my first thought as I read your thread, is have you tried it or done this?

edited to mean "have you done this - have you tried opting out of filing taxes?"

I do not give money away to anyone, not even the IRS. Why would I pay something I'm not liable for? I'm not a government employee, and they can not cough up an employment contract and payroll records that prove otherwise, and they surely can not ever prove that at the time of the complaint, or at the time I made the money they claim I owe taxes on, that I was indeed performing a function of government. If I have an electronics shop where I repair TV's and Radios, is that considered performing a function of government? Maybe if I'm an Army Electronics Specialist, but I do not have an Army Uniform in my possession

Ask yourselves this question, over and over and over and over again, until it clicks:

At the time the government or the state claims I broke some 'statutory rule/regulation/code', was I performing a function of government? At the time I made the money the IRS claims I owe, was I performing a function of government, and can they cough up an employment contract and payroll records that actually PROVE I was operating in the capacity of an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States Inc.?

[jeepguy]

mmmmmm lets see ,,, could be because they will freeze your bank accounts ,,, uhhhh take all control of your belongings { car titles , home titles } put levy`s against any payroll account and any thing you would get money from would be a good start not too ,,,, think the i r s is just joking around,,,, although the federal i.r.s is wayyyy more fogiving than state tax people ,,,,,,, yep had the pleasure to do busness with both idenities ,,,, and if your an employer ,,,, you basically are the federal tax man ,,,,, you have too with hold all your taxation on employees ,, and sale taxes ,,,,,, but if you wish too dance with the devil have at it ,,,, you hear the phrase haven and hell well on the wrong side of any .i.r.s. is hell soooooo pay your taxes and not have too worry later ,,, fight the goverment at what cost would it mean ?? you owe 2000 in taxes attorny fees start in the 2 ooo range depending on the litagation ,,,,,,, so who would you wish too pay ,,,,, the tax money goes too a lot of things as the ones you voted for thinks ,,,, or your money can go too your lawyer and he sends it too his daughter and new son-in-law who live in the bahama`s

[CarbonCoyote]

mmmmmm lets see ,,, could be because they will freeze your bank accounts ,,, uhhhh take all control of your belongings { car titles , home titles } put levy`s against any payroll account and any thing you would get money from would be a good start not too ,,,, think the i r s is just joking around,,,, although the federal i.r.s is wayyyy more fogiving than state tax people ,,,,,,, yep had the pleasure to do busness with both idenities ,,,, and if your an employer ,,,, you basically are the federal tax man ,,,,, you have too with hold all your taxation on employees ,, and sale taxes ,,,,,, but if you wish too dance with the devil have at it ,,,, you hear the phrase haven and hell well on the wrong side of any .i.r.s. is hell soooooo pay your taxes and not have too worry later ,,, fight the goverment at what cost would it mean ?? you owe 2000 in taxes attorny fees start in the 2 ooo range depending on the litagation ,,,,,,, so who would you wish too pay ,,,,, the tax money goes too a lot of things as the ones you voted for thinks ,,,, or your money can go too your lawyer and he sends it too his daughter and new son-in-law who live in the bahama`s

If an IRS agent oversteps their authority and personally harms you, then you can indeed sue them in their "personal capacity"; take their car; their home; their back account, etc. If you are an government employee, then you are "granted your rights and privileges", and there is a BIG difference between "granted rights and privileges" and "Inherent Rights", but most people do not understand this; who would after 12 years in the public fool system?

Also, if you are not liable for federal income taxes, then you are not liable for state income taxes either

You're NOT a "federal tax man", unless you are getting paid to be a "federal tax man". If that was the case, why do they have IRS agents, if all Americans are "federal tax men/women"?

First of all, does anyone ever question Jurisdiction? They have authority ONLY in the District of Columbia and a few territories, but ignorance of the law and not rebutting this enables them to trample in anywhere they please.

There is no major cost in fighting the government if you know what you are doing. They can't just take you directly to court for a supposed tax violation, that is considered TAX FRAUD. They must initiate some paperwork, in which you rebut their jurisdiction and rebut their 'presumptions' that you were in fact performing a function of government at the time you made the money they claim you owe.

Hire an Attorney? .... That is laughable; I would personally NEVER do any such thing: When you Hire an Attorney, You are considered a Ward of the State.

Some may wish to hire an attorney, but for me personally: I'm not a ward of the state

[Sage449]

CC - did you ever see the PBS special on the IRS, how it came about and those that have tried to go up against it and not file - was enlightening, eye opening and just plain interesting. I guess I'm not brave enough to taken them on.

[CarbonCoyote]

I dont want to speak for CarbonCoyote, he will have his own answers,

however...The way I read this article is that a person can charge the IRS

or any other Govt Agency for work that they demand....at the point of a gun

(metaphorically speaking) Fines, confiscation, prison (literally speaking)

which could involve guns.

This is an Oh **** moment for me.....The question in my mind, because

I havent had time to read everything is, has anyone tried this?

Has anyone succeeded in billing the Govt, whatever agency, for work that

they demand? As a business owner, I spend a great amount of time 'complying'

with increasingly stupid regulations.

My time is damn valuable....I think 5k per hour is a reasonable rate to charge

to any Agency that thinks they can simply demand my obedience.

The next question would be, If they refuse to pay my rates do I take them

to Civil Court and get a judgement? If they show up, they must argue for their

assertion that I must work for them for free (slavery) If they dont show, I get a

monetary judgement against them.

When you are compelled (forced) by any agency to perform a function of government (tax collecting), they must have some contract or payroll record and agent # on file showing without a doubt that you are indeed an officer of that corporation who has been trained and is receiving pay to carry out those duties; and wouldn't an employment contract in fact PROVE this? Do they have an employment contract and payroll records on file for you? Are you listed in their employment records as a "tax collector"? ..... Or are you an unwittingly "unpaid tax collector"?

When someone is about to do harm to you and you provide them a warning that they are about to trespass on your Inherent Rights, do they have any excuse for proceeding against you in a civil lawsuit? The IRS or State contacts you and demands you collect a tax; you state that this will take time and money, and if they wish you to perform some function of government (tax collecting), that you will need to be compensated financially, and present them with a fee schedule, and they ignore you offer and proceed against you, where does that agent in their individual capacity have a legal or lawful leg to stand on?

Once you have exhausted your Administrative processes, you may proceed against them with the full force of the law. You can sue an IRS agent in his/her individual capacity. You gave them notice; they ignored that notice and you have the Registered Mail receipts that they received that notice. What excuse do they now have? "The agency told me to do it?" You weren't dealing with the "agency" when he ceased your bank account or proceeded against you, you were dealing 'directly' with him/her, and they are held directly responsible for their actions or lack of.

Here's just a quick Google search article I found: http://www.americannationalactionparty.com/Winincourt.html

I have heard others on patriot radio shows talk about successes with enforcing fee schedules; unseating corrupt judges; disbarring state attorneys. I'm sure there are plenty of examples out there on the internet, if one is willing to search for it.

Can I come to your home and demand you go next door and dig me a hole for my mailbox? Sure I can; but will you comply without first notifying me of your fee to do so? If you just go outside and start digging without demanding some payment for your services, then who's fault is that?

I didn't break the law by telling you to dig my hole did I? I just made a demand, and you didn't rebut it, that is not my fault

I wonder how many other people on the block will do the same? I'm not sure, but you did it, so perhaps I can find a few more suckers to dig me a garden; paint my house; plant some flowers; change the oil in my car; carpet the house, etc.

If you don't rebut, you must agree. And when two people agree, that is what makes it law

[BrokeNoMore]

CarbonCoyote, did I miss the part where you answered the question about whether or not you are filing tax returns and paying taxes, or if you're practicing all of this wonderful freedom and rights we have to tell the IRS to **** off?

[pureau79]

As far as I know, anyone who "opts out" of the "volunteer tax system" and gives the IRS the finger pretty much loses. Not a single victory on record. It may be true, but there's no chance an Obama regime would allow you, me, or anyone else to exert their "rights". Every attempt to fight this fight pretty much exemplifies how much our "freedom" is actually illusion.

Legal or not, our tax system is run like the Gestapo.

The reason there are no examples of individuals beating this rap is that we have been coming at the matter as individuals... Not enough are willing to do the time or pay the fines. We're going to have to band together 'en masse' or they will continue to roll over the individuals likethe PLA wiped out protestors at Tiananmen Square.

[izza]

mmmmmm lets see ,,, could be because they will freeze your bank accounts ,,, uhhhh take all control of your belongings { car titles , home titles } put levy`s against any payroll account and any thing you would get money from would be a good start not too ,,,, think the i r s is just joking around,,,, although the federal i.r.s is wayyyy more fogiving than state tax people ,,,,,,, yep had the pleasure to do busness with both idenities ,,,, and if your an employer ,,,, you basically are the federal tax man ,,,,, you have too with hold all your taxation on employees ,, and sale taxes ,,,,,, but if you wish too dance with the devil have at it ,,,, you hear the phrase haven and hell well on the wrong side of any .i.r.s. is hell soooooo pay your taxes and not have too worry later ,,, fight the goverment at what cost would it mean ?? you owe 2000 in taxes attorny fees start in the 2 ooo range depending on the litagation ,,,,,,, so who would you wish too pay ,,,,, the tax money goes too a lot of things as the ones you voted for thinks ,,,, or your money can go too your lawyer and he sends it too his daughter and new son-in-law who live in the bahama`s

I agree with you on this, I worked with a man that did not pay taxes had a lawyer work with him to make sure he was doing everything legal? he did this for 15 years , not sure what all happened but the IRS won there case

the man lost everything he had along with his home and was lefts homeless.

He retired and still had to pay the IRS a large amount which left him with not much to live on being retired.

lawyers fees, penalties, and all of the headaches would have made me sick

Life is to short to play this game for me

i AM to old to Change

IZZA

[CarbonCoyote]

CarbonCoyote, did I miss the part where you answered the question about whether or not you are filing tax returns and paying taxes, or if you're practicing all of this wonderful freedom and rights we have to tell the IRS to **** off?

Apparently you did, or you wouldn't have made this post Go back and READ

It never fails in a thread like this: Always someone who wants you to PROVE something to them before they act themselves. Did I say this was legal or tax advice in my original post? If I was "advising" you to do something, then perhaps I would be obligated to provide you with some proof. This is a discussion and no one is advising you to do anything.

Maybe you could get involved and help with the research instead of waiting for someone to show you proof of something? I ate a hot dog today, do you need proof? Many people have told the IRS to F*** Off; many people have beat the IRS, do you need proof? If so, go back to page one and read the Google links I provided with just a quick and short search; not even digging, just typed in a few search words. What do you think you might find if you actually did some research?

It's your Money and it's your Freedom. I've opened a discussion to see where it goes and hopefully spark some intelligent responses that we all can learn from.

Can you contribute?