He's at it again--

[Francie26]

OUTSOURCED: OBAMA CAMPAIGN RAISES MONEY IN CHINA--AGAIN

I am very offended that he would do this. It may be legal, but it’s just plain tacky, and it sure smacks of desperation, doesn’t it? But then there's no end of "tacky" with this guy.

________________________________________

From the Breitbart Organization--by Joel B. Pollak 15 Jul 2012, 5:56 AM PDT

The Obama campaign may be attacking Republican rival Mitt Romney for investing abroad, but it is not shy about raising campaign cash overseas. Last week, the campaign held a fundraiser for American expatriates in Shanghai, raking in large sums from those benefiting from the sort of personal and professional investment overseas that President Barack Obama has cast as unpatriotic in a recent attack ad against Romney.

It is not the first time the Obama campaign has raised money overseas. In 2008, the campaign held similar events in Shanghai . . . . Earlier this month, it raised money on July 4th (on July 4th?????) in Paris, and though the new Obama attack ad uses a Swiss flag to denounce Romney's foreign investments, the Obama campaign is bringing Hollywood superstar George Clooney to Switzerland next month for a huge fundraising event.

The overseas contributions are legal, as long as they are made by American citizens. But the Obama campaign had to return a number of overseas contributions from non-citizens in the 2008 cycle, and it has been accused once again of being too lax in preventing such contributions in 2012. Regardless, the hypocrisy of attacking Romney for investment abroad, then raising money from those working and investing abroad, is glaring.

Photo credit: Woodie Alan (Sorry, I couldn't get the photo over here).

[pattyangel]

France26, I just shake my head in disgust. Romney needs to get aggressive with his campaign. Thanks for the post, I'm passing this on.

[NEODinar]

Lol! Not illegal, but tacky? Ummm, so is destroying american companies as your boy romney likes to do. Apparently you guys are pro outsourcing. How "american" and "tactful".

[Black Swan]

Other than maybe Israel, most non-American actually like Obama. Pls don't neg me for an observation. You need only google Obama's popularity worldwide to see the results.

Yes, I realize those of you who AREN'T fans think "they" don't know the real Obama. That's fair because it's an opinion but, again, if you look at how non-American's preceive him...he is widely popular. So it's only nature that he would seek financial support outside the borders.

Now if he is applying the "Do as I say and not as I do"..well, then..that's not right. And I can see where one would be upset.

[kliklok00]

Lol! Not illegal, but tacky? Ummm, so is destroying american companies as your boy romney likes to do. Apparently you guys are pro outsourcing. How "american" and "tactful".

Hey Neo...when you say Romney "destroyed" American companies, do you have a list of those companies and the reason they were "destroyed?" I'm not taking up for Romney nor bashing you...I truly am curious. I often hear (read) people stating Bain Capital has done nothing but buy up companies simply to shut them down, and to me, that makes no sense. If one buys a company, common sense says it is bought in order to make it turn a profit. For example, Bain Capital invested in a small office supply store many years ago...this store has multiplied from one to more than 2,000, and it now employs over 90,000 people in America. It is called, "Staples." They also invested in The Weather Channel, Home Depot, and many, many more---not to shut them down or "destroy" them, but to turn them into a business that is profitable. So again...who has he "destroyed" and why?

[NEODinar]

<br />Hey Neo...when you say Romney "destroyed" American companies, do you have a list of those companies and the reason they were "destroyed?" I'm not taking up for Romney nor bashing you...I truly am curious. I often hear (read) people stating Bain Capital has done nothing but buy up companies simply to shut them down, and to me, that makes no sense. If one buys a company, common sense says it is bought in order to make it turn a profit. For example, Bain Capital invested in a small office supply store many years ago...this store has multiplied from one to more than 2,000, and it now employs over 90,000 people in America. It is called, "Staples." They also invested in The Weather Channel, Home Depot, and many, many more---not to shut them down or "destroy" them, but to turn them into a business that is profitable. So again...who has he "destroyed" and why?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

No worries my friend..When Romney was with Bain he invested heavily in chinese manufacturing companies that depended heavily on US outsourcing for it's profits. This article will explain much better than I can.. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/bain-capital-mitt-romney-outsourcing-china-global-tech

You can also google "romney outsourcing" and "romney destroys jobs/companies" for further info. Honestly friend I don't really get into politics that heavily nor am i hyped on patriotism, I just found it ironic that obama was being labeled "tacky" and catching ish for acquiring legal funding from abroad when Romney has contributed to outsourcing and job killing, something patriotic americans usually don't like in the least, and for good reason as it hurts our economy. I was just jesting at the irony thats all. Take care.

<br />Other than maybe Israel, most non-American actually like Obama.   Pls don't neg me for an observation. You need only google Obama's popularity worldwide to see the results.<br /><br />Yes, I realize those of you who AREN'T fans think "they" don't know the real Obama.  That's fair because it's an opinion but, again, if you look at how non-American's preceive him...he is widely popular.  So it's only nature that he would seek financial support outside the borders.<br /><br />Now if he is applying the "Do as I say and not as I do"..well, then..that's not right.  And I can see where one would be upset.<br />

<br /><br /><br

Lol! Dang Swan, we just can't catch a break huh? Good to see you around.

[kliklok00]

Yep, it seems our political world of today is nothing more than finger pointing. My friends who are of liberal viewpoints, constantly bash all things conservative and will not acknowledge any policy that comes from conservatives even if it has a great track record---and vice versa on my conservative friends. I'm of the opinion that all one need do is look at the condition of our country right now...and what one will see is a mess. Who got us there? Those who were in power in the past...who has kept us here? Those who are in power now. And guess what? Those in the past are exactly like those in the present. We need NEW leadership at all fronts...I foolishly hope a new batch of young people will see the problem, figure out a solution, and then take charge and do something other than whine and gripe about who did what...

[DinarMillionaire]

Other than maybe Israel, most non-American actually like Obama. Pls don't neg me for an observation. You need only google Obama's popularity worldwide to see the results.

Yes, I realize those of you who AREN'T fans think "they" don't know the real Obama. That's fair because it's an opinion but, again, if you look at how non-American's preceive him...he is widely popular. So it's only nature that he would seek financial support outside the borders.

Now if he is applying the "Do as I say and not as I do"..well, then..that's not right. And I can see where one would be upset.

I can see why non-Americans would like Obama. He's killing this country from the inside, weakening our military, destroying our Constitution, destroying the American family and the economy.

It really doesn't matter if foreigners like Obama, they don't have a stake in what he does to our Constitution or our way of life. If he became their President and tried the whole "hope and change" on them, changing their traditions, circumventing their Constitution, they would hate him too.

The man is a disaster and has to go.

[NEODinar]

<br />Yep, it seems our political world of today is nothing more than finger pointing. My friends who are of liberal viewpoints, constantly bash all things conservative and will not acknowledge any policy that comes from conservatives even if it has a great track record---and vice versa on my conservative friends. I'm of the opinion that all one need do is look at the condition of our country right now...and what one will see is a mess. Who got us there? Those who were in power in the past...who has kept us here? Those who are in power now. And guess what? Those in the past are exactly like those in the present. We need NEW leadership at all fronts...I foolishly hope a new batch of young people will see the problem, figure out a solution, and then take charge and do something other than whine and gripe about who did what...<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I hear you, I have pretty much lost hope in the US government left or right when corporations started running the show, it all became a game of who has the most powerful lobbyists. IMO the whole entire system needs to be reconstructed. Why in the world does it cost millions if not a billions dollars to get a job that pays a few hundred thousand. It's all a game imo. Having said that, I do think obama is the lesser of the corporate shill evils, and I think he's going to take it in november again. Although I wouldn't mind if Paul won, but don't see that happening. Would like to see more focus on green energy and would also like to see the war on drugs ended and the policies revamped. Those two things alone would seriously hinder corporate power and provide extensive job opportunities, but it's wishful thinking at this point. Unless Paul wins that is. Corporations won't let Paul win though. They'll put in office who they want in. Just look at bush.

[Francie26]

Other than maybe Israel, most non-American actually like Obama. Pls don't neg me for an observation. You need only google Obama's popularity worldwide to see the results.

Yes, I realize those of you who AREN'T fans think "they" don't know the real Obama. That's fair because it's an opinion but, again, if you look at how non-American's preceive him...he is widely popular. So it's only nature that he would seek financial support outside the borders.

Now if he is applying the "Do as I say and not as I do"..well, then..that's not right. And I can see where one would be upset.

It's much bigger than this. It has nothing to do with whether or not they like him. Foreigners have no right to meddle in our elections. Like him or not (and I don't), Obama is an American president, and whether he is re-elected or not is an American decision, not a foreign one. Besides, many Europeans are currently in failing economies, and they want America to fail, too. Thus, Obama is their man. He's just not ours, not if we want America to survive as a nation.

[pattyangel]

Other than maybe Israel, most non-American actually like Obama. Pls don't neg me for an observation. You need only google Obama's popularity worldwide to see the results.

Yes, I realize those of you who AREN'T fans think "they" don't know the real Obama. That's fair because it's an opinion but, again, if you look at how non-American's preceive him...he is widely popular. So it's only nature that he would seek financial support outside the borders.

Now if he is applying the "Do as I say and not as I do"..well, then..that's not right. And I can see where one would be upset.

Any non-Americans or foreign country that see's the US and say they like the US and really don't, will be happy to support a President who is bringing down their country.

France26, foreigner's have no right in meddling in our affairs.

[Black Swan]

Any non-Americans or foreign country that see's the US and say they like the US and really don't, will be happy to support a President who is bringing down their country.

France26, foreigner's have no right in meddling in our affairs.

Patty..you know I worship the ground you walk on BUT....I think this is a case of: do as I say not as I do. (or to go biblical on you: do on to others as they would do on to you).

Afterall, what do you think the Afghans, Iraqs, or even our native Americans would think of this advice? My guess: If only they would have followed their own advice

Americans have a LONG history of sticking their noses into others business. If fact, if you travel the world over, you would get this same comment: Americans are nice and all that, but I just WISHED they'd mind their own business.

Really...that's what most non-Americans think of Americans.

[Francie26]

Countries that want us to stay out of their business are the first to call us for help when they get into trouble. And it seems most European and almost all Mid-Eastern countries are in trouble. I guess we could say Syria is not in trouble (or is it?), nor is Iran, they claim, but for the sake of the rest of the Middle East, both of them are getting ready to be pushed off the map. Their nonsense crap has to stop, and if we have to stop it, so be it. I am not a warmonger, and I would love to have one whole peaceful decade, or even an entire year. But so far in this old world, that hasn't been possible.

As to us staying out of the business of others, we almost all wish we could do that. But we have been given a gift so rare that it has never before occurred in human history, a country built on citizen freedom and citizen independence. Other countries try to mimic it, and some come close, but ours has remained a one-of-a-kind nation. I'm tired of sending our kids to fight for every country that gets itself into problems, and then, the minute we get it out of its latest difficulty, it turns and snarls to us, "Just leave us alone. We could have done that." Oh, sure, they could have!! If it had been that easy, wouldn't they have already done it? Nevertheless, someone has to do this dirty work, and whether or not you admit it, the world looks to us to do it. And it is above question that the American fighting man is superior to all others, bar none. But if we don't show up when they think we should have, what do we hear? Where is the U.S. when we need them? Why didn't America intervene? Where are the Americans? What do the Americans say about this? And so for the most part, we do what we can, and we do it extraordinarily well.

But I am totally sick of hearing people whine that we should have stayed out of it, or we should have gone in faster, or we should have given more money to people who, somehow, can never seem to get around to thanking us for what we have already given them. Or to people who turn on us while taking our money. (Pakistan comes to mind). And have you noticed how rare it is for a nation to volunteer to pay us back for getting them out of trouble of their own making? But worst of the lot are our own American citizens who whine about America. This is a nation above all others, and right or wrong, our country is forever decent, kind, and always good. Oh, we have to get rid of a crooked politician now and then, one who was elected on false claims and/or outright lies. (I can think of several as we speak). And we have to adjust our course from time to time, but given the condition of the rest of the world in general, all other countries are extremely fortunate to have us. (Can you even imagine the crap some of those other countries would have created and what some other countries would be dealing with if America didn't exist?? Sheesh!!!) We'll get rid of this White House mess in November, and then we'll get back on course rather quickly. And whether or not they are ever grateful, those other nations should at least stop whining about us and blaming us for their own messes, especially after the stupidity they manage to create. But whatever else happens, our nation deserves the love and respect of her own citizens. The world, yes, but others are often graceless about their moral debts to America, but at least American citizens should render unrelenting love and homage to our great country.

[Francie26]

France26, I just shake my head in disgust. Romney needs to get aggressive with his campaign. Thanks for the post, I'm passing this on.

I agree with you, PattyAngel. But I suspect Romney will get busy on this soon. He just HAS to do it, and quickly now!!

It's much bigger than this. It has nothing to do with whether or not they like him. Foreigners have no right to meddle in our elections. Like him or not (and I don't), Obama is an American president, and whether he is re-elected or not is an American decision, not a foreign one. Besides, many Europeans are currently in failing economies, and they want America to fail, too. Thus, Obama is their man. He's just not ours, not if we want America to survive as a nation.

Oh, and one more thing. Many disgruntled foreigners want America to suffer because that is the normal state of affairs in their country. That's why they love Obama. He makes all our citizens, in fact, our entire country, suffer. But that does not make those foreigners right to be so petty, shallow, and pathetic because they are jealous of Americans.

[Black Swan]

Countries that want us to stay out of their business are the first to call us for help when they get into trouble. And it seems most European and almost all Mid-Eastern countries are in trouble. I guess we could say Syria is not in trouble (or is it?), nor is Iran, they claim, but for the sake of the rest of the Middle East, both of them are getting ready to be pushed off the map. Their nonsense crap has to stop, and if we have to stop it, so be it. I am not a warmonger, and I would love to have one whole peaceful decade, or even an entire year. But so far in this old world, that hasn't been possible.

As to us staying out of the business of others, we almost all wish we could do that. But we have been given a gift so rare that it has never before occurred in human history, a country built on citizen freedom and citizen independence. Other countries try to mimic it, and some come close, but ours has remained a one-of-a-kind nation. I'm tired of sending our kids to fight for every country that gets itself into problems, and then, the minute we get it out of its latest difficulty, it turns and snarls to us, "Just leave us alone. We could have done that." Oh, sure, they could have!! If it had been that easy, wouldn't they have already done it? Nevertheless, someone has to do this dirty work, and whether or not you admit it, the world looks to us to do it. And it is above question that the American fighting man is superior to all others, bar none. But if we don't show up when they think we should have, what do we hear? Where is the U.S. when we need them? Why didn't America intervene? Where are the Americans? What do the Americans say about this? And so for the most part, we do what we can, and we do it extraordinarily well.

But I am totally sick of hearing people whine that we should have stayed out of it, or we should have gone in faster, or we should have given more money to people who, somehow, can never seem to get around to thanking us for what we have already given them. Or to people who turn on us while taking our money. (Pakistan comes to mind). And have you noticed how rare it is for a nation to volunteer to pay us back for getting them out of trouble of their own making? But worst of the lot are our own American citizens who whine about America. This is a nation above all others, and right or wrong, our country is forever decent, kind, and always good. Oh, we have to get rid of a crooked politician now and then, one who was elected on false claims and/or outright lies. (I can think of several as we speak). And we have to adjust our course from time to time, but given the condition of the rest of the world in general, all other countries are extremely fortunate to have us. (Can you even imagine the crap some of those other countries would have created and what some other countries would be dealing with if America didn't exist?? Sheesh!!!) We'll get rid of this White House mess in November, and then we'll get back on course rather quickly. And whether or not they are ever grateful, those other nations should at least stop whining about us and blaming us for their own messes, especially after the stupidity they manage to create. But whatever else happens, our nation deserves the love and respect of her own citizens. The world, yes, but others are often graceless about their moral debts to America, but at least American citizens should render unrelenting love and homage to our great country.

Francie…I find some of what you say true and some that I respectfully (and of little surprise to you no doubt) have a different perspective.

First off, I for one don’t have the foresight to know when we should get involved and when we shouldn’t. These are some of the most complex situation in the world, as they are all intermingled. Case in point: If you help Syrians with their civil war, how will Israel take it? Will Russia get upset if we send in airstrikes? Will this cause an increase in oil prices? Which would then cause job growth to go down..and so on into nausea

Next, I agree that other countries do participate in Monday morning quarterbacking. That is, ,if Americas involvement works out well, that’s nice. But if it doesn’t…then shame on us. Let me provide a parable on how I view it. America is the world’s Rich Uncle. When something goes wrong in your life, as in your car breaks down, or someone breaks in and steals your TV…and if you don’t have the resources to cover it….you are hoping your Rich Uncle will step in to help out. If he decides not to, well…you are upset…after all, he has the resources ( or so you believe) and it’s no skin off his teeth to help out. But if he does, well, yea, you’re grateful and probably say “Thanks”…but it’s not like you figure you actually owe him anything in return.

Americans seem to have this common belief that every country in the world is making a list of all the great things that American have done for them and they therefore (or should) be eternally grateful. Guess what..they don’t. Instead, they go on about their business, just like you do. Afterall, do you ever thank France (and Spain to a lesser extent) for providing crucial aid to American during the War of Independence? Historians differ on whether independence would have even been possible had it not been for these two countries involvement. http://members.tripod.com/alevel_essays/awi3.htm

Now let me tackle the part that I do disagree with. That is the whining of American citizen against America. To be honest, that is our GREATEST right….really, see the 1st Amendment. The ability to speak out against the Government is something that really does make America great. And..it works to some degree on keeping politicians in check. You need only look at how people voice their displeasure of Obama on this site. If we take your comment to the extreme, then this won’t be allowed, correct?

You can't have it both ways...do you appreciate the fact that you can show your disapproval of the job he is doing or do you think everyone on this site should shut the F up?

Then too, a lot of what I see in your comment is simply a garden variety of Ethnocentrism – the belief that one’s own culture, nation is superior to all others – aids survival by strengthening our bonds to our primary social groups and thus increasing our willingness to work, fight and occasionally die for them.

Also with a dash of “might makes right”. Since we are the biggest and most powerful dog in the neighborhood, we must be right. No, I don’t buy that. And finally, I don’t like the idea of “unrelenting love and homage to our great country”. What makes America so great is because it’s citizen CAN voice their displeasure and CAN vote against politicians that they believe are acting immoral.

Otherwise…good post.

[pattyangel]

Patty..you know I worship the ground you walk on BUT....I think this is a case of: do as I say not as I do. (or to go biblical on you: do on to others as they would do on to you).

Afterall, what do you think the Afghans, Iraqs, or even our native Americans would think of this advice? My guess: If only they would have followed their own advice

Americans have a LONG history of sticking their noses into others business. If fact, if you travel the world over, you would get this same comment: Americans are nice and all that, but I just WISHED they'd mind their own business.

Really...that's what most non-Americans think of Americans.

You know Tiff, no need to worship the ground I walk on I would prefer you worship God. But we all know that outcome. Still keeping you in my prayers dear.

Now as far as a response, France26 touches base on some vital point that I agree with and you touch base on some that I agree with. But at this point I don't have the energy to go into dept. So ladies play nice.

[Francie26]

I can see why non-Americans would like Obama. He's killing this country from the inside, weakening our military, destroying our Constitution, destroying the American family and the economy.

It really doesn't matter if foreigners like Obama, they don't have a stake in what he does to our Constitution or our way of life. If he became their President and tried the whole "hope and change" on them, changing their traditions, circumventing their Constitution, they would hate him too.

The man is a disaster and has to go.

Amen!!

Francie…I find some of what you say true and some that I respectfully (and of little surprise to you no doubt) have a different perspective.

First off, I for one don’t have the foresight to know when we should get involved and when we shouldn’t. These are some of the most complex situation in the world, as they are all intermingled. Case in point: If you help Syrians with their civil war, how will Israel take it? Will Russia get upset if we send in airstrikes? Will this cause an increase in oil prices? Which would then cause job growth to go down..and so on into nausea

Next, I agree that other countries do participate in Monday morning quarterbacking. That is, ,if Americas involvement works out well, that’s nice. But if it doesn’t…then shame on us. Let me provide a parable on how I view it. America is the world’s Rich Uncle. When something goes wrong in your life, as in your car breaks down, or someone breaks in and steals your TV…and if you don’t have the resources to cover it….you are hoping your Rich Uncle will step in to help out. If he decides not to, well…you are upset…after all, he has the resources ( or so you believe) and it’s no skin off his teeth to help out. But if he does, well, yea, you’re grateful and probably say “Thanks”…but it’s not like you figure you actually owe him anything in return.

Americans seem to have this common belief that every country in the world is making a list of all the great things that American have done for them and they therefore (or should) be eternally grateful. Guess what..they don’t. Instead, they go on about their business, just like you do. Afterall, do you ever thank France (and Spain to a lesser extent) for providing crucial aid to American during the War of Independence? Historians differ on whether independence would have even been possible had it not been for these two countries involvement. http://members.tripod.com/alevel_essays/awi3.htm

Now let me tackle the part that I do disagree with. That is the whining of American citizen against America. To be honest, that is our GREATEST right….really, see the 1st Amendment. The ability to speak out against the Government is something that really does make America great. And..it works to some degree on keeping politicians in check. You need only look at how people voice their displeasure of Obama on this site. If we take your comment to the extreme, then this won’t be allowed, correct?

You can't have it both ways...do you appreciate the fact that you can show your disapproval of the job he is doing or do you think everyone on this site should shut the F up?

Then too, a lot of what I see in your comment is simply a garden variety of Ethnocentrism – the belief that one’s own culture, nation is superior to all others – aids survival by strengthening our bonds to our primary social groups and thus increasing our willingness to work, fight and occasionally die for them.

Also with a dash of “might makes right”. Since we are the biggest and most powerful dog in the neighborhood, we must be right. No, I don’t buy that. And finally, I don’t like the idea of “unrelenting love and homage to our great country”. What makes America so great is because it’s citizen CAN voice their displeasure and CAN vote against politicians that they believe are acting immoral.

Otherwise…good post.

I know what ethnocentrism is. I call it patriotism. And to the heart of a real American, that is never "simply garden variety." To us, it means something.

[Black Swan]

Amen!!

I know what ethnocentrism is. I call it patriotism. And to the heart of a real American, that is never "simply garden variety." To us, it means something.

For someone that prides herself on her knowledge of human nature...you sure don't seem to show a lot of creativeness...this once again is a classic textbook response. It's called No True Scotsman fallacy.

Let’s say you believe that no Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge. I protest that my Uncle Angus McGregor of Glasgow puts sugar in his porridge.” ‘Aye” you reply, but no TRUE Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge”

So much for my counterevidence-and so much the better for your belief. This is an evergreen rhetorical trick especially in religion and politics. As everyone knows, no true follower of the Qur’an supports suicide bombings, no true Christian supports legalized abortion, no real American question her government et cetera.

Yawn.....same ole same ole argument.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Black Swan

[NEODinar]

<br />For someone that prides herself on her knowledge of human nature...you sure don't seem to show a lot of creativeness...this once again is a classic textbook response.  It's called No True Scotsman fallacy.  <br /><br />Let’s say you believe that no Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge.  I protest that my Uncle Angus McGregor of Glasgow puts sugar in his porridge.”  ‘Aye” you reply, but no TRUE Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge”  <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> <br /><br />So much for my counterevidence-and so much the better for your belief.  This is an evergreen rhetorical trick especially in religion and politics.  As everyone knows, no true follower of the Qur’an supports suicide bombings, no true Christian supports legalized abortion, no real American question her government et cetera.  <br /><br />Yawn.....same ole same ole argument. <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

They'll never learn Swan.

[Francie26]

For someone that prides herself on human nature...you sure don't seem to show a lot of creativeness...this once again is a classic textbook response. It's called No True Scotsman fallacy.

Let’s say you believe that no Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge. I protest that my Uncle Angus McGregor of Glasgow puts sugar in his porridge.” ‘Aye” you reply, but no TRUE Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge”

So much for my counterevidence-and so much the better for your belief. This is an evergreen rhetorical trick especially in religion and politics. As everyone knows, no true follower of the Qur’an supports suicide bombings, no true Christian supports legalized abortion, no real American question her government et cetera.

Yawn.....same ole same ole argument.

::: Yawn:::: Then I suggest you stop talking because I have no intention of changing my mind or even discussing it with you further. Once again, you have found something that another person holds dear, and have diligently attempted to poke holes in it. And once again, it didn't work, Tiffany, because, frankly, I don't value your poor opinion since my values stand alone, independent of yours or anyone else's opinions. Thus, your opinion is meaningless to me. Furthermore, based on your efforts to do this to other people at other times, I believe that what you have said is not your "truth" at all, since it is not something you wrote from your own heart, but is rather, merely an attempted rebuttal of my own values, and thus, your comments have no intrinsic value of their own. Best wishes, Tiffany. Go in peace.

[Black Swan]

::: Yawn:::: Then I suggest you stop talking because I have no intention of changing my mind or even discussing it with you further. Once again, you have found something that another person holds dear, and have diligently attempted to poke holes in it. And once again, it didn't work, Tiffany, because, frankly, I don't value your poor opinion since my values stand alone, independent of yours or anyone else's opinions. Thus, your opinion is meaningless to me. Furthermore, based on your efforts to do this to other people at other times, I believe that what you have said is not your "truth" at all, since it is not something you wrote from your own heart, but is rather, merely an attempted rebuttal of my own values, and thus, your comments have no intrinsic value of their own. Best wishes, Tiffany. Go in peace.

Wow..you DID come up with something creative afterall. Normally, these types of arguments conclude that I’m either: ignorant, stupid or evil. But you have come up with another trick of the hand, saying that my values aren’t sincere and therefore are meaningless (as in they don’t exist) to you.

Kewl…that means I now get to dabble into the thorny area of ontology: the philosophical study of what it means for something to exist.

And what excellent timing, as I was just leaning about this in my physics class. It seems it is human nature to keep going back to the same rules, standards, behavior that has worked for you in the past. So what you are saying, is that you hold such things as loyalty and patriotism in high esteem. It also appears that authority is not to be questioned in your book.

Hmmm…well, I guess that does leave us on different sides of the tails of the bell shape curve. I on the other hand question everything..including myself. I specifically question authority, I live for adventure, and I’m deeply curious in almost everything. What makes things tick?

If I may digress for a moment, just this morning I was reading about physics, evolutionary behaviorism and free will. There is actually a line of study that believes that there is NO free will. That is, before you make a conscious decision, your biology mechanisms have already decided for you. It really is no different than instinct. To illustrate an example:

A lady wakes in the middle of the night and discovers that she is thirsty. So she wanders down to the refrig and has a look about regarding her options. She settles on either orange juice or apple juice. Unsure if they are both still consumable (as in not spoiled), she takes a whiff of each. When she takes a whiff of the apple, the aroma sets a subconscious memory in motion of a romantic picnic that she once had in an apple orchard with an old lover. This brings back happy memories that set off endorphins and various chemicals like oxytocin and vasopressin. These are feel good chemicals…and it is little doubt that she decides to pick the apple juice. All this takes place without her even consciously knowing why. Pretty amazing.

So, in the end, Francie, it appears that these values of yours have served you rather well. And while my life hasn’t been as long (or shall we say as deep??) as yours, I think mine has been more than likely broader. And no, I’m not going to get into a blow by blow argument on that point. I’m simply saying we both live by our own standards. So be it.

One final bit, regarding your argument regarding patriotism and how no “real” American would question their Government’s authority. What about our Founding Fathers? Such men as Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, and Madison? Did they not deviate from Mother England’s authority? Did they not question the Governments ways? Didn’t they even start a revolution against their Government? But then again, maybe they weren’t “real” American either in your book?

You know...just saying.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Black Swan