Guest views are now limited to 12 pages. If you get an "Error" message, just sign in! If you need to create an account, click here.

Jump to content
  • CRYPTO REWARDS!

    Full endorsement on this opportunity - but it's limited, so get in while you can!

For cost of 1 month of Iraq War, "God particle" could have been U.S. triumph


umbertino
 Share

Recommended Posts

by: Marc McDonald

July 10 2012

The discovery of the Higgs boson subatomic particle, announced [last] week, is one of the biggest triumphs in the history of science. The discovery was announced by scientists at the CERN, the research center in Switzerland that operates the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), the massive particle accelerator that detected the Higgs boson.

Once upon a time, most big scientific breakthroughs like this were made in the U.S. But in an era of declining science budgets and fewer science degrees awarded, America is increasingly no longer the leader in cutting-edge science.

The Large Hadron Collider cost around $8 billion. Although that sounds like a steep price tag, it's important to keep this figure in perspective. After all, during the Iraq War, the U.S. was typically spending $8 billion every month in that disastrous and unnecessary conflict.

For that same $8 billion that we pissed away every month in the Iraq War, the U.S. could have built its own Large Hadron Collider. And the amazing Higgs boson scientific breakthrough could well have been a U.S., not a European, triumph.

It's also important to remember that, for their $8 billion, the Europeans will almost certainly be enjoying many other benefits in the years to come, via the LHC. Who knows what other major unforeseen scientific breakthroughs the LHC will make possible? (If you doubt this, consider that the World Wide Web itself was originally invented at CERN, as a means of sharing computer data, before it went on to conquer the world).

Yes, the $8 billion spent on the LHC will likely pay benefits to Europe for decades to come.

By contrast, what, exactly, did the U.S. get for spending $8 billion per month in Iraq? We didn't get anything in return, except to draw out that disastrous war yet another bloody month.

Even today, nearly a decade after George W. Bush ordered the invasion, Iraq remains a shambles. It is still one of the most dangerous and unstable nations on earth. And Iraq must be the only nation in world history where on a given day, car bombs can kill 100 people and the world's media outlets no longer consider such a tragedy front-page news.

Indeed, Iraq remains a broken, bloodied state and a shattered society, abandoned by the West. Outside of the nation's large oil reserves, the U.S. simply doesn't care about Iraq, much less its people.

The Iraq War remains one of the great tragedies of human history, with hundreds of thousands (if not a million) needless deaths. And, of course, the fiscal cost was tremendous, as well, with the U.S. sinking well over $1 trillion into the quagmire.

And for the cost of only one month of the Iraq War, the U.S. could have enjoyed one of the great scientific triumphs of history.

But that's really the story of modern day America: a nation that has increasingly gutted budgets for essentials like science and education, while lavishing trillions of dollars for death, destruction, and greedy, pampered defense contractors.

Marc McDonald is a Texas journalist. This article is reposted from his blog, BeggarsCanBeChoosers.com

http://www.peoplesworld.org/for-cost-of-1-month-of-iraq-war-god-particle-could-have-been-u-s-triumph/

  • Upvote 5
  • Downvote 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah?.....The way I see it, 5 trillion of money we dont

have was spent on welfare recipients.....Jeez, imagine all the

breakthroughs we could have with that kind of dough. :rolleyes:

I forgot to add.....The bloodiest place on Earth is probably Chicago

with some other Lib strongholds in a close second.

Oh....and I could have sworn that Al Gore said he invented the Internet. :rolleyes:

  • Upvote 9
  • Downvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no such thing as Corporate welfare....Thats a

Lib invented term for legal ways that Corps, both large and small

(Mom & Pops) get to write off expenses for expanding (the economy)

and hiring employees.

Any additional taxes that are imposed by a Socialist Govt, will

be passed on to the consumer (you) ;)

  • Upvote 6
  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cris I admire the fact that you think you are talking to people who can rationally think or debate......you are not. Most of the liberal progressives only care about one thing...What do I get from this government? What is sad is that the countries that most degrade the US are the most financially screwed countries. but please keep trying to convince those that will listen ....maybe ....just maybe ....one will really look at where we are headed....Thanks....Chris...

  • Upvote 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cris I admire the fact that you think you are talking to people who can rationally think or debate......you are not. Most of the liberal progressives only care about one thing...What do I get from this government? What is sad is that the countries that most degrade the US are the most financially screwed countries. but please keep trying to convince those that will listen ....maybe ....just maybe ....one will really look at where we are headed....Thanks....Chris...

Im sure your right :D Its straight economics 101 so they may

get it....eventually....Or this little seed could sprout into the next

productive Conservative....Its happened before.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cris I admire the fact that you think you are talking to people who can rationally think or debate......you are not. Most of the liberal progressives only care about one thing...What do I get from this government? What is sad is that the countries that most degrade the US are the most financially screwed countries. but please keep trying to convince those that will listen ....maybe ....just maybe ....one will really look at where we are headed....Thanks....Chris...

Installer...I don’t' think we have ever had dealings, so I don't really know how to take your comment. However, I think almost everyone that has dealt with me would consider me to be pretty far to the left and I think when it comes to debating... well.. let's just say, I also think you'll get your dollars worth. I’ll try not to disappoint you. :P

With that said, I'll throw out a few facts and see how you take them:

1. Almost half of adult Americans already don't pay income tax. Source: http://blog.heritage.org/2012/02/19/chart-of-the-week-nearly-half-of-all-americans-dont-pay-income-taxes/

2. Scandinavian countries are for the most part considered to be the most liberal countries in the world. Agreed?

3. Here is a site on how much each country in the world has in public debt and also, when broken down per capital, it is:

Sweden $17K per person

Netherlands $16K per person

Finland $20K per person

Denmark $23k per person

USA $29K per person

4. Scandinavian countries are the happiest in the world. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/world-happiness-report-2012_n_1408787.html

5. I'll grant you that most Scandinavians countries have very low defense budgets, but even taken that into consideration, the US per debt is much higher than them and only about 52% of American's pay taxes.

Therefore, I would conclude that liberal countries are better at collecting taxes and more efficient in providing gov't support and infrastructure than the Capitalistic one that the US follows.

What do you think? Do you wish to retract some of your above statements?

If not, I’d ask that you pls bring references to the debate and refrain from unsupported rhetoric.

Also, it would be nice if we could go at this mano y mana...no help from the other conservatives on the site...I want to see what you got Sugar. :)

  • Upvote 3
  • Downvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Black Swan ..I would never consider getting into a debate with you about life outside the US. I have no experience. You are to good at what you do. which I have always wondered what that exactly is. Why bring up Scandinavian countries? Do they Degrade the US ? Your points are always well thought out and structured and you always provide your links. You remind me of my young nephew...well educated , well spoken. But doesnt know the first thing about working 6 to 7 days week 10 to 12 hr days just to provide for a family. So I really know I cant debate this with you but it makes me proud to know I got a response from you. Thanks ....Chris ....

Points 1....Agree

2 Dont know

3 Negated by 5 no defense spending

4 Questionable..Suicide rates ....Kinda to high....

5 Perhaps if we cut some of the give aways to those that can earn . Meaning People an outside Countries....we could cut some of the debt.....

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Black Swan ..I would never consider getting into a debate with you about life outside the US. I have no experience. You are to good at what you do. which I have always wondered what that exactly is. Why bring up Scandinavian countries? Do they Degrade the US ? Your points are always well thought out and structured and you always provide your links. You remind me of my young nephew...well educated , well spoken. But doesnt know the first thing about working 6 to 7 days week 10 to 12 hr days just to provide for a family. So I really know I cant debate this with you but it makes me proud to know I got a response from you. Thanks ....Chris ....

Points 1....Agree

2 Dont know

3 Negated by 5 no defense spending

4 Questionable..Suicide rates ....Kinda to high....

5 Perhaps if we cut some of the give aways to those that can earn . Meaning People an outside Countries....we could cut some of the debt.....

Installer, thank you for being upfront and honest. I can tell you are a person of integrity. And it would also seem that you are one that can provide a bit of sly creativeness, as well. You admit you have no experience in real life of what I mention but then you try to turn the table by insinuating that I don’t know the first thing about working 6 or 7 days a week for 10/12 hrs…hmmmm

imagesCAKVMD0D.jpg

Why would you say that? In fact, no, I don’t know what it’s like to provide for a family. But I have worked two jobs AND attending college full time for 6 years in a row. Sleeping only 3 or 4 hrs a night. All, the while living on $25 a week in groceries. So, trust me, I do know something about hard work and sacrifice.

Pls understand, I am not devaluing your opinions, I’m merely suggesting that they may be misled and even stereotypical of what conservatives think of socialism. That is why I called you on the carpet, if you want to be taken seriously, then please provides some facts to back up your allegations. Otherwise, simply stating that liberals are a bunch of crybabies would do just nicely and be done with it. As I can’t argue with an opinion and you got your point across, eh?

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Black Swan,, I stand corrected....I know nothing about your work history or work ethics... And what I said was a jab against who I thought you to be. That said I do make an amends. Now back to the point of the original topic. Not the money spent on the war but the fact that i think the liberal and progressive dont think for them selves. they only want something from the gov. Here in the US we have spent an amount that can not be repaid no matter to what extent they tax the rich or the middle or the poor. Just cant be done unless they cut programs. Cut spending. Who is opposed to this. Those that get something from those programs. I believe this country has become one that no longer helps each other because they believe it to be the right thing to do but because the gov. tells them its the right thing to do. Big difference where I come from. I believe we need to get back to the belief of helping each other with jobs security spirituality community charity because we know it is the right thing to do.

In my younger days i use to bring people from the streets into my home to help them get back on their feet . Job shelter food Sobriety . I didnt do this because the gov. told me to do it . I did it because I learned that all that I give is given to my self. I did this because I knew if I could help one person and he in turn could help one the process just multiplies. I also did this because I was told that I must to survive. Cant keep it unless you give it away. For some reason Iam not clear why at this time I have become cynical to that belief. I have taken on this attitude of I will give but you will not tell me when or how or how much. I am beginning to see that the more I focus on Politics the less I am willing to give.

So in my small mind I say its those that want something for nothing that have changed me. I know this isnt true but until I can thoroughly process this I cant change that belief. But each day I try . Is Socialism the right way or Capitalism. I dont know ....but I do no I dont like the way this country is going. And I hope to get back to the way i used to be. Not the Cynical person I have become. Sorry but my life come with no links...just beliefs....Which I say are more convincing....Gotta run...thanks for letting me vent a bit.....Chris....

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you are holding dinar worth .00086 today and get to cash it in for 1.00 later then the Iraq war was not a wasted effort.....profiteering on a currency rebound forced by such a cruel and unecessary war is very capitalistic....if you are olding dinar today you may be a republican and dont even realize it..

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you are holding dinar worth .00086 today and get to cash it in for 1.00 later then the Iraq war was not a wasted effort.....profiteering on a currency rebound forced by such a cruel and unecessary war is very capitalistic....if you are olding dinar today you may be a republican and dont even realize it..

Lol, that's a good one, lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Black Swan,, I stand corrected....I know nothing about your work history or work ethics... And what I said was a jab against who I thought you to be. That said I do make an amends. Now back to the point of the original topic. Not the money spent on the war but the fact that i think the liberal and progressive dont think for them selves. they only want something from the gov. Here in the US we have spent an amount that can not be repaid no matter to what extent they tax the rich or the middle or the poor. Just cant be done unless they cut programs. Cut spending. Who is opposed to this. Those that get something from those programs. I believe this country has become one that no longer helps each other because they believe it to be the right thing to do but because the gov. tells them its the right thing to do. Big difference where I come from. I believe we need to get back to the belief of helping each other with jobs security spirituality community charity because we know it is the right thing to do.

In my younger days i use to bring people from the streets into my home to help them get back on their feet . Job shelter food Sobriety . I didnt do this because the gov. told me to do it . I did it because I learned that all that I give is given to my self. I did this because I knew if I could help one person and he in turn could help one the process just multiplies. I also did this because I was told that I must to survive. Cant keep it unless you give it away. For some reason Iam not clear why at this time I have become cynical to that belief. I have taken on this attitude of I will give but you will not tell me when or how or how much. I am beginning to see that the more I focus on Politics the less I am willing to give.

So in my small mind I say its those that want something for nothing that have changed me. I know this isnt true but until I can thoroughly process this I cant change that belief. But each day I try . Is Socialism the right way or Capitalism. I dont know ....but I do no I dont like the way this country is going. And I hope to get back to the way i used to be. Not the Cynical person I have become. Sorry but my life come with no links...just beliefs....Which I say are more convincing....Gotta run...thanks for letting me vent a bit.....Chris....

Installer, may I address you as Chris? You are as gracious as you are considerate. Thank you for being a gentle creature and withdrawing your jab. It is always pleasant to debate with someone that is willing to correct themselves and then move on.

:)

Ok, now I understand what your frame of reference is, as you provided a personal testimony of why you think as you do towards “liberals and progressives”.

If I may, let me first acknowledge our common ground. :D I have been on record numerous times also stating that we need to cut spending…BIG TIME. However, have you ever noticed that while almost all Conservatives AGREE that cuts need to be made, and yet they disagree where exactly. I have stated several times that if you really want to make a substantial impact on the national debt, you have to slice the big three. As they make up 60% of the entire budget: Defense (20%), Social Security (20%) and Medicare (20%). However, when I do this, I get B*tch slapped, because those cuts directly impact the holy grails of conservatives (which is rather interesting, because SS and Medicare ARE a direct form of socialism..infact one could also make the argument that Defense is also. After all, the Gov’t IS protecting one from invaders, vs. one standing out on one’s front lawn with ole Bessie.

Instead, the Conservatives want to end welfare (13%), stop foreign aid (less than 1%) decrease education (2%) and stop science and medical research (2%). You cut all of those to 0% and you’d still only make a 18% decrease in the budget. :o

Source: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

Note that your posts are basically against building a super collider, which is arguably the most advance device in the known universe..and has far reaching benefits for mankind such as understanding the beginning of the universe, help to cure cancer, increase manufacturing process, and possibly one day providing insights into a perpetual fuel.

Source: http://www.quora.com/What-practical-use-and-benefit-will-we-get-out-of-the-results-of-the-experiments-dealing-with-the-Large-Hadron-Collider

But, let me get down to brass tacks, shall I? You seem to have a garden variety conservative belief that the US would be great once again when all external factors (liberals, maybe immigrants as well?) are once again put in their place and things are back to what they were, and thus you find it hard to accept the imperfection of life. Sartre had a word for this. He describes the need to accept the facticity of existence: the way that world is whether we like it or not.

Would you agree that this is very significant when it comes to what we desire and expect from life? To point: What people in the affluent west typically want is a great partner who is both a terrific friend and a terrific lover; a good material standard of living; well-adjusted, happy children; a stimulating and fulfilling job; a varied social life with interesting, amusing and intelligent friend and regular holidays abroad. Of course, one only needs to read the list to realize that very few people have all these things. Yet there is a widespread belief among Conservatives, something verging on the expectation, that all this can and should be achieved almost by right.

With such absurdly high ideals setting the standard, when Conservatives look at their own lives at any given point they can only be disappointed by now they measure up. They believe the system is against them and someone else is living off the sweat of their brow. Look again, welfare makes up only 13% of the budget.

In reality, your partner may well be great, but not the perfect lover or friend of your dreams. Your children may stubbornly refuse to grow up without problems. Work can be a grind. And those foreign holidays can be a source of as much stress as sun-drenched relaxation. And so, instead of accepting the facticity of the world, that such imperfections need to be dealt with, Conservatives imagine that they would have their ideal life if ONLY things didn’t change and life was like it was in the good ole days. To quote Leo Tolstoy : Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.”

In order to be honest and consistent one needs to grow up and avoid these errors. If you think that a life without these difficulties and worries lies in the future, I think you will be sadly disappointed. Conservatives need to recognize the fragility of good fortune and the impermanent of things. If life was fair Chris, your sons would be working the farm in the blazing sun and the cold of winter, while your daughters would be sent to the city to prostitute themselves. That is how life is for hundreds of millions of people on this Earth. You won the lotto of life by being born a (white?) male in America.

But, I ask Chris, do you have the courage and honesty to take life for what it is and make the most of it? Or do you fear that if you do so, it will prove to be a disappointment?

Let me know what you think.

Respectfully,

Tiff :)

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tiffany , you have said alot hear and I respect your belief of this world....But you also are treading in areas you know nothing about.for one my conservative values. My belief of what I am entitled to. Can you say for a fact that my sons dont work in the heat and cold. Can you say that my daughter hasnt moved to the city only to prostitute herself ? My ideal Life you have know idea what that is. As for the cost cutting measures....really...we have spent over 4 trillion dollars since the mid 60s to help with poverty and education and what has been purchased with that ? Lower Poverty....no ....better education..no...Did not Paul Ryan plan to restructure Medicare and S S and the Tax codes only to be ridiculed Throwing gramma off a Cliff.

"Would you agree that this is very significant when it comes to what we desire and expect from life? To point: What people in the affluent west typically want is a great partner who is both a terrific friend and a terrific lover; a good material standard of living; well-adjusted, happy children; a stimulating and fulfilling job; a varied social life with interesting, amusing and intelligent friend and regular holidays abroad. Of course, one only needs to read the list to realize that very few people have all these things. Yet there is a widespread belief among Conservatives, something verging on the expectation, that all this can and should be achieved almost by right."

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=7&t=122847#ixzz20sy6tVqG

I have almost all those things you stated above less the holidays abroad. Not because of expectations of deserving them but from doing the things that have earned them.

Would you be offended if I were to say that you seem to me to be someone who has gotten all the good things that money can buy and hate it when other people want those things.... I know you have also worked hard for them.

You see my only blessing in life was I was given another chance at life. I know what they mean when they say ...God did not open the gates of Heaven to let me in but opened the gates of Hell and let me out. I know of the four Hideous Horsemen . I know Incomprehensible Demoralization.

Iam 53 and have been on a journey that few take but many need. that journey started in '82 and will never end.

So gotta run late now for work....would like to conti...Thanks Chris...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tiffany , you have said alot hear and I respect your belief of this world....But you also are treading in areas you know nothing about.for one my conservative values. My belief of what I am entitled to. Can you say for a fact that my sons dont work in the heat and cold. Can you say that my daughter hasnt moved to the city only to prostitute herself ? My ideal Life you have know idea what that is. As for the cost cutting measures....really...we have spent over 4 trillion dollars since the mid 60s to help with poverty and education and what has been purchased with that ? Lower Poverty....no ....better education..no...Did not Paul Ryan plan to restructure Medicare and S S and the Tax codes only to be ridiculed Throwing gramma off a Cliff.

"Would you agree that this is very significant when it comes to what we desire and expect from life? To point: What people in the affluent west typically want is a great partner who is both a terrific friend and a terrific lover; a good material standard of living; well-adjusted, happy children; a stimulating and fulfilling job; a varied social life with interesting, amusing and intelligent friend and regular holidays abroad. Of course, one only needs to read the list to realize that very few people have all these things. Yet there is a widespread belief among Conservatives, something verging on the expectation, that all this can and should be achieved almost by right."

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=7&t=122847#ixzz20sy6tVqG

I have almost all those things you stated above less the holidays abroad. Not because of expectations of deserving them but from doing the things that have earned them.

Would you be offended if I were to say that you seem to me to be someone who has gotten all the good things that money can buy and hate it when other people want those things.... I know you have also worked hard for them.

You see my only blessing in life was I was given another chance at life. I know what they mean when they say ...God did not open the gates of Heaven to let me in but opened the gates of Hell and let me out. I know of the four Hideous Horsemen . I know Incomprehensible Demoralization.

Iam 53 and have been on a journey that few take but many need. that journey started in '82 and will never end.

So gotta run late now for work....would like to conti...Thanks Chris...

Chris...I made those generalities about Conservatives to make a point…that is, that you can’t paint people with a wide ideological brush. I for one find myself to be on the extreme side of fiscal conservatism. To me, it makes logical sense that you don’t spend more than you make. We balance the books in our individual lives, the Feds required that States do it, but then they in turn get to turn out a fiscal overage year after year. :blink:

On the other hand, I think we spend too much on Defense and too little on Science. I could elaborate but I think the point is moot.

The real point I’m trying to make is that you started out painting liberals and progressives in a negative light. I countered with how I feel about Conservatives. And guess what? We are both wrong, because people are people and don’t conform to a party platform. That’s all that I was trying to get across.

It sounds to me that you have made a turn in your life for the better..I therefore sincerely hope that life treats you well.

Godspeed,

Tiff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 trillion? umm no, try more along the lines of 200 billion. Lets think of who receives the most benefits in the US. Poor whites. Poor hispanics also make up another significant chunk as do poor blacks. Which states receive the most benefits? Red states. Which group makes up the majority in red states? Conservatives do. Hispanics tend to be fiercely catholic and also tend to be ver conservative. Blacks tend to be democrats. It would seem contrary to propaganda that conservatives are responsible for the majority of the people receiving welfare in this country. So all this liberal bashing is hypocrisy at it's finest. Conservatives love to bash what they need/want like the girl at the tea party rallies who collects food stamps.

<br />There is no such thing as Corporate welfare....Thats a<br />Lib invented term for legal ways that Corps, both large and small<br />(Mom & Pops) get to write off expenses for expanding (the economy)<br />and hiring employees.<br />Any additional taxes that are imposed by a Socialist Govt, will<br />be passed on to the consumer (you)  <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /><br />
<br /><br /><br />

Hmmm, so you take no issue with the bank bailouts and the golden parachutes that wall street guys received after they played monopoly with our money? Interesting. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tiff. I feel we should move on to other topics for now ....love reading your rebuttals...You are by far one of the best here to read and try to debate....And i kinda think we probably agree on more then we disagree.. Take care....Chris...

I agree. We ARE probably more alike than either of us can imagine. Believe it or not I HATE freeloaders...but I also think it is a mature society that takes care of those less fortuante.

BTW, I really don't think of myself as a "liberal", instead I like to think of myself as someone that cares about the welfare of others, especially ones that haven't been as fortuante as I have. I really believe I'm one of the luckiest people on the planet.

And in turn, thank you for the reasonableness in your response as well. I rarely have problems with men, because they can see the logic behind my debates. Like you, not that they agree, but they can at least see where I come up with my beliefs. Women on the otherhand...well, some on this site would like to push me over a cliff. :P

Catch up to you on another thread Chris till then...be good! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So let me get this right...if the U.S.A. would have spent the one trillion dollars on something other than the Iraq war, our balance sheet would not reflect the one trillion dollars spent? And with Europe on the verge of economic collapse right now, the LHC is somehow going to save them? I'm not sure I understand the news article...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the risk of nudging this thread back on track, there was a report on the radio today that only about 15% of graduating science PHDs are able to find work in their field. Much of that work is bring outsourced and or domestic Scientists are unemployed or underemployed.

Investing on domestic research should be rewarded with significantly attractive tax advantages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


  • Testing the Rocker Badge!

  • Live Exchange Rate

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.