I need opinions

[eLemonator]

I am not a lawyer, nor have I taken the Bar, or went to law school, that said.... I do firmly believe that when “swearing to god”, “holding hand to bible”, as a Oath taken by Government agents, officials, elected representatives, and anyone else that take the Oath to uphold the constitution, as well as witnesses in court that swear to god, while holding their hand to the bible; is in direct violation of Brown V. Board of education, which is the case that overturned Plessey v. Ferguson in 1954, Plessey V. Ferguson is the "Separate but Equal". So how does the government violate their own ruling?

All man are created equal is what Brown V. Board of education comes down to. Men and women that are forced to take that oath, but a teacher cannot force a student say the pledge, and the UST prints money with "in god we trust" on it!

So I guess what I am saying is that we can be forced to have "GOD" in our lives; on our money, in our court rooms and while we take an oath, which is a violation of the separation of church and state, and in the process it is in violation of Plessey V. Ferguson, because if I am forced to do that by someone else then that means I am not equal, right? And if the circumstances permit it, if someone refused to use the bible and refused to swear to god, a judge could hold them in contempt of court, which would then violate the 1st amendment on 2 counts, freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

can you find the logic in this?

attorneys could this argument hold up?

anything wrong with this basis?

[willy1der]

Where does the constitution state there is a separation of church and state? There was a letter written in response to a question poised by a church but I haven't read in the constitution where is states the separation of church and state.

[peterson96]

Tradition does not require logic - especially in our current time frame. Rest assured, it made perfect sense years ago.

That said, most states and federal courts have provided other methods for you to make an oath. A Bible is no longer required.

[Markinsa]

I haven't been in a court room in a while, but I don't think they force you to place your hand on the Bible nowadays, you just raise your right hand and swear in an affirmative that you will tell the truth. No Bible necessary.

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[eLemonator]

Where does the constitution state there is a separation of church and state? There was a letter written in response to a question poised by a church but I haven't read in the constitution where is states the separation of church and state.

I did not say the constitution said anything about the separation of church and state, (even though it does) I was thinking there was a supreme court case (Everson v. Board of Education) which held up part of the 1st amendment. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

1st amendment.

The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

when the Everson case was decided, the following blurb played a large role in the decision!

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.

[dinar_stud]

Where does the constitution state there is a separation of church and state? There was a letter written in response to a question poised by a church but I haven't read in the constitution where is states the separation of church and state.

have you ever heard of the first ammendment?

The phrase of separation of church and state was in a letter fron Thomas Jefferson (founding father), to the Danbury Baptists in which this is how he explained what it meant.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public, and by these articles of the constitution make it a 2 way street, in others words a secular nation which was later ratified in the Treaty of Tripoli

Edited June 12, 2012 by dinar_stud

[eLemonator]

Tradition does not require logic - especially in our current time frame. Rest assured, it made perfect sense years ago.

That said, most states and federal courts have provided other methods for you to make an oath. A Bible is no longer required.

I haven't been in a court room in a while, but I don't think they force you to place your hand on the Bible nowadays, you just raise your right hand and swear in an affirmative that you will tell the truth. No Bible necessary.

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I just testified today, and asked the judge to not use a bible, he said no, this was in Ohio. he asked why I did not want to use the bible I told him, I don't believe in god and it infringes on my 1st amendment, I was told to do it or I would be in contempt of court! I did not want to make a spectacle of it so I just bit the bullet, after the testimony was given he asked me if that was so hard, I said, "2 things your honor, 1 it makes it easy to lie when you don't believe in the "being you call god" that I was forced to swear too, and 2, I will be filing a complaint with the bar! good day your honor! and I walked out!

so rest assured they still make you swear in on the bible, you can opt out of "swear to god" with "I affirm" but your hand is still on a bible!

[cris]

Markinsa is right...you are not forced to swear an oath or on the Bible

You raise your hand & swear to tell the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth....

If you are found to be lying....thats when you are committing perjury and

can go to jail

I just testified today, and asked the judge to not use a bible, he said no, this was in Ohio. he asked why I did not want to use the bible I told him, I don't believe in god and it infringes on my 1st amendment, I was told to do it or I would be in contempt of court! I did not want to make a spectacle of it so I just bit the bullet, after the testimony was given he asked me if that was so hard, I said, "2 things your honor, 1 it makes it easy to lie when you don't believe in the "being you call god" that I was forced to swear too, and 2, I will be filing a complaint with the bar! good day your honor! and I walked out!

so rest assured they still make you swear in on the bible, you can opt out of "swear to god" with "I affirm" but your hand is still on a bible!

Ummm...ok, my experience is Az.....Ohio is obviously different

[jonjon]

I just testified today, and asked the judge to not use a bible, he said no, this was in Ohio. he asked why I did not want to use the bible I told him, I don't believe in god and it infringes on my 1st amendment, I was told to do it or I would be in contempt of court! I did not want to make a spectacle of it so I just bit the bullet, after the testimony was given he asked me if that was so hard, I said, "2 things your honor, 1 it makes it easy to lie when you don't believe in the "being you call god" that I was forced to swear too, and 2, I will be filing a complaint with the bar! good day your honor! and I walked out!

so rest assured they still make you swear in on the bible, you can opt out of "swear to god" with "I affirm" but your hand is still on a bible!

I do not believe placing ones hand on a bible could be proven as to be practicing an act of religion.

I also do not believe that anyone could prove that God is contained in the bible in a form that would impart him into an individual from placing his hand on it.

If you could prove these two separate facts than claiming you didn’t believe in god would be an act of perjury because you would have proven to the court that you do.

I think you should just let it go.

[Markinsa]

I just testified today, and asked the judge to not use a bible, he said no, this was in Ohio. he asked why I did not want to use the bible I told him, I don't believe in god and it infringes on my 1st amendment, I was told to do it or I would be in contempt of court! I did not want to make a spectacle of it so I just bit the bullet, after the testimony was given he asked me if that was so hard, I said, "2 things your honor, 1 it makes it easy to lie when you don't believe in the "being you call god" that I was forced to swear too, and 2, I will be filing a complaint with the bar! good day your honor! and I walked out!

so rest assured they still make you swear in on the bible, you can opt out of "swear to god" with "I affirm" but your hand is still on a bible!

Dude, while I'm a man of faith, I definately think that was wrong for the Judge to force you to do that. Unfortunately, you probably don't have any recourse...

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[eLemonator]

I don't care about recourse or getting the judge in trouble, I do care about the Constitution being enforced. If I was forced to place my hand on a "religious book" in court, then my first amendment was infringed upon, and when we start taking away constitutional rights away then we have forgotten what america stands for! I do not plan to go public with this issue, just wanted opinions of others.

[PartyTime]

I just testified today, and asked the judge to not use a bible, he said no, this was in Ohio. he asked why I did not want to use the bible I told him, I don't believe in god and it infringes on my 1st amendment, I was told to do it or I would be in contempt of court! I did not want to make a spectacle of it so I just bit the bullet, after the testimony was given he asked me if that was so hard, I said, "2 things your honor, 1 it makes it easy to lie when you don't believe in the "being you call god" that I was forced to swear too, and 2, I will be filing a complaint with the bar! good day your honor! and I walked out!

so rest assured they still make you swear in on the bible, you can opt out of "swear to god" with "I affirm" but your hand is still on a bible!

they don't MAKE you do anything. They might INTIMINATE YOU to get you to do something, but no one make you.

Try just saying I can't swear and I certainly couldn't swear to tell the trut because I don't know what the truth is!

And NEVER ask someone what you can do. You must TELL them. I know people who will not swear to anything because it is against their religious beliefs and the judges always honor that. Usually the judge will just say, will you promise to tell the truth?

[PartyTime]

I don't care about recourse or getting the judge in trouble, I do care about the Constitution being enforced. If I was forced to place my hand on a "religious book" in court, then my first amendment was infringed upon, and when we start taking away constitutional rights away then we have forgotten what america stands for! I do not plan to go public with this issue, just wanted opinions of others.

Are you a government official? If not, that isn't YOUR constitutional right. YOU are not a party to the constitution and because you are not a party to it, you have no right to complain to any breach to it. Only the STATES are a party to it and only they may complain.

YOU are a "private person" and as a private person you are merely a VOLUNTEER who has freely volunteered to participate in THEIR foreign corporate government. And as a voluntary participant you consented to give up your God given rights in exchange for their limited rights of whatever they decide they want to give you. If you don't like those terms then stop participating. It is that simple!

The constitution is THEIR constitution and it is their MANDATE that they are all mandated by it having taken an oath to it.

This is why a lot of judges threaten you with contempt when you try to bring up the constitution in their courts. It is because people keep making the WRONG argument by trying to claim their constitutional rights. YOU don't have constitutional rights because YOU are not a party to it! You have God given rights which supercede the constitution. God's Law is the SUPREME LAW and any man-made constitutions or laws that are contrary to God's Law they are to disobey their laws and consider theit laws as being void!

When they take an oath they relinguish all allegiance to any other government or King, which means they relinguish their allegiance to God to become a member of their foreign corporate government and they become a foreign agent. And everyone having taken an oath is REQUIRED to file a registeration with their State Attorney General Office as a foreign agent doing business in that State, which most never do, which means they doing business in the State illegally.

I just testified today, and asked the judge to not use a bible, he said no, this was in Ohio. he asked why I did not want to use the bible I told him, I don't believe in god and it infringes on my 1st amendment, I was told to do it or I would be in contempt of court! I did not want to make a spectacle of it so I just bit the bullet, after the testimony was given he asked me if that was so hard, I said, "2 things your honor, 1 it makes it easy to lie when you don't believe in the "being you call god" that I was forced to swear too, and 2, I will be filing a complaint with the bar! good day your honor! and I walked out!

so rest assured they still make you swear in on the bible, you can opt out of "swear to god" with "I affirm" but your hand is still on a bible!

Oh BTW, next time, just take that bible, open it, then ask the judge what page is he taking that from?

[Black Swan]

Having been to several courts and also having served as an intern liaison between the Dept of Defense and Congress, I can attest what others have said, they do not force you to take an oath on the bible. The big picture is that the court is attempting to make it very clear that you are to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The bible represent what many believe is the covenant between man and God, so if you lie, then you are indirectly lying to God. Since they can’t administer truth serum and lie detector machines are costly and not very reliable, it’s the best they can do.

I am a huge believer in people being allowed to worship or not worship in their own manner, but this is not one of those places that non-believers need take a stand (pun intended).