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Does this go too Far? Yes


TPSprayduster
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(CNN) -- What would happen if you posted derogatory comments about your boss on a Facebook page that you knew would be read by your co-workers?

How would your boss react if in those Facebook posts you called him or her a "coward," a "domestic enemy," and boasted that you wouldn't be following the boss' instructions in the future?

And what if your boss is the president of the United States and you are a sergeant in the U.S. Marine Corps?

That's essentially the case of Sgt. Gary Stein, a nine-year veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps, who is on the verge of being discharged from the military for making comments on Facebook about his boss: the commander-in-chief, President Barack Obama.

Stein posted comments on both his personal Facebook page and on The Armed Forces Tea Party Facebook page he created, mocking the president. On those pages he referred to President Obama as a "domestic enemy," a coward, and even superimposed President Obama's face on the poster for the movie "Jackass."

Marine ready to fight for free speech

But the comment that really drew the ire of Marine Corps brass was this post from Stein:

"As an Active Duty Marine I say 'Screw Obama' and I will not follow all orders from him ... has [sic] for saluting Obama as commander-in-chief ... I will not!"

It's pretty clear that Stein will not be adding President Obama as a friend on Facebook any time soon.

The U.S. military has alleged that Stein's postings violated military regulations prohibiting partisan political statements while in active service in the military. Consequently, Stein was charged with conduct "prejudicial to good order and discipline."

But Stein doesn't see it that way. Stein appeared earlier this week on CNN's "Starting Point" arguing that the Facebook posts were not his views as a U.S. Marine, but, "...my personal opinion as Gary Stein."

Members of the military are free to give their personal opinions about political candidates, but Stein's Facebook post begins: "As an Active Duty Marine I say 'Screw Obama...' " This clearly gives the appearance that Stein is speaking as a member of the Marine Corps.

Secondly, the Marine Corps motto is the Latin phrase "Semper Fi," which means "always faithful." The motto isn't "faithful only nine to five." Every Marine I have ever met has made it clear that being a U.S. Marine is a 24-hour a day job.

Bottom line: Stein, upon enlisting, agreed to follow the rules of the U.S. Military, which contain express regulations prohibiting certain partisan political speech. As a result of his apparent violations of these regulations, a military panel ruled last week three to zero to discharge Stein from the military.

In normal times, this case would have likely received little media coverage. But these are not normal times. Instead, we live in a grotesquely partisan era.

Consequently, three Republican congressmen publicly came to Stein's defense: Reps. Allen West, Darrell Issa and Duncan Hunter. Hunter even sent a personal letter to the Marine Corps in which he stated in part: "I urge the Marine Corps to withdraw the discharge proceedings and allow Sgt Stein to complete his enlistment."

West, a former U.S. Army officer, issued a statement paradoxically conceding that Stein should face some form of discipline -- although less than discharge -- but then in essence pointed his finger at President Obama as the cause for Stein's conduct: "If America had leadership that gained the respect of our military, instead of simply using them as stage props for speeches, this atmosphere would not exist."

Adding to the growing partisanship of this case is that the lawyer now representing Stein -- Gary Kreep -- was one of the lead organizers of the birther movement, which contended falsely that President Obama was not born in America and, thus, not legitimately the president. Kreep even created a 28-minute infomercial on the birther issue in which he hawked "Got a Birth Certificate" bumper stickers for $30 each.

You have to wonder if Stein had made the comments at issue about a Republican president if these men would be offering the same support. (It's a rhetorical question: We all know the answer.)

Inserting partisan politics into our military is dangerous. Our nation's military cannot be divided into political factions where loyalty is based on whether service members agree with the political views of the commander-in-chief.

As the U.S. Supreme Court noted when upholding restrictions on partisan politics in the military: We live under "...the American constitutional tradition of a politically neutral military establishment under civilian control."

There should be zero tolerance by the military for any partisan politicking by active duty service men or women. This is not only "prejudicial to good order and discipline," but could lead to the loss of lives.

We already have one dysfunctional institution marred by partisan infighting -- the U.S. Congress - we can't afford another.

Keep cheering him on and before you know it, their will be a coup and it might not end up like you think.

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Isn't it sad that we have a President that has caused such divisiveness That a member of our Armed Forces would feel that way?

I suppose it could be looked at like that. As for me, I prefer the old days, when a soldier shut his mouth, did as he was told.......and suffered harsh consequences when he broke the rules. Check your independence at the door, or don't raise your hand. Most people can't get their mind around the fact that military personnel must give up their personal freedoms to protect the very constitution that affords them personal freedom. A military of free thinkers would be completely ineffective. Normally I would say this is my opinion.....it is not my opinion. It is FACT.

GO RV, then BV

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Isn't it sad that we have a President that has caused such divisiveness That a member of our Armed Forces would feel that way?

Isn't it also said that a member of the armed services would decided to disobey rules and regulation to make a point. It is also said that if you had a few months to serve then complete your obligation and say as you please. No, i believe and this is my opinion that he was duped into believing they (the Marine Corps) would only slap him on the wrist and allow him to complete his enlistment. That's what happens when you listen to some clowns in cyberspace cheering you on and you suffer the fallout. That is the sad part.

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What is sad, is this is probably the first time in our country's military history that our armed forces feel that the enemy is in the White House. Here they are fighting the "devout Muslims" and our president has installed several into very sensitive areas of our government. That is what is sad.

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What is sad, is this is probably the first time in our country's military history that our armed forces feel that the enemy is in the White House. Here they are fighting the "devout Muslims" and our president has installed several into very sensitive areas of our government. That is what is sad.

When you raise your right hand alot of your rights go out the window. Some of you all out there has not realized this yet. I don't have to like my commander in chief but i did swear an oath. Let's stay on topic here Danan.

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It has become clear over the last couple of weeks that there are quite a number of individuals on this site who like to brag about how patriotic they are but never served. Unfortunately, the majority of our politicians never wore the uniform either. They, too, like to shot off their mouths about that which they know nothing. Our recent and current senators and representatives show no desire or ability to resolve the current problems our nation faces. If they had been true patriots and served, I suspect our country's state of affairs would be much different. Shabibilicious and TPSprayduster there's no doubt in my mind that you served your country well and understand how to carry out a mission. Thank you.

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When you raise your right hand alot of your rights go out the window. Some of you all out there has not realized this yet. I don't have to like my commander in chief but i did swear an oath. Let's stay on topic here Danan.

You swear an oath to the U.S. Constitution.....NOT the President (or, in this case, the Resident).

Big difference.

And, yes, I have served in two different branches of the U.S. Armed Services.

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You swear an oath to the U.S. Constitution.....NOT the President (or, in this case, the Resident).

Big difference.

And, yes, I have served in two different branches of the U.S. Armed Services.

Actually your oath is to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the President of the United States and all officers appointed over you.

Roadrunner

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Actually your oath is to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the President of the United States and all officers appointed over you.

Roadrunner

Thank you Roadrunner for clearing this up, apparently some folks out there who have never served tends to spin other than what it is.

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You swear an oath to the U.S. Constitution.....NOT the President (or, in this case, the Resident).

Big difference.

And, yes, I have served in two different branches of the U.S. Armed Services.

Apparently you did not read or follow the enlistment Oath as written or did you make up one as you went on???

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Even the Guard members swear something similar

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of (STATE NAME) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of (STATE NAME) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.

Now tell me what enlistment oath did you swear to, because I swore the first one. and it is quite clear you swear to follow the orders of the president and of the officers appointed over you.

Edited by Weapon X
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When you raise your right hand alot of your rights go out the window. Some of you all out there has not realized this yet. I don't have to like my commander in chief but i did swear an oath. Let's stay on topic here Danan.

I believe Danan is on topic. What he said is just another facet of this situation with a commander-in-chief who places so little value on the military that he doesn't give them enough backup, would not meet the requirements of his own generals, and expects these fine young soldiers to get by without enough compatriots beside them on the ground. I respect your oath, TPSprayduster, and I respect your willingness to give your allegience to your country. Thank you for your service to all of us. When you went into battle, I pray you had enough men around you to do the job without grievous danger. Too many of our good men are coming home with missing limbs and seared hearts. They deserve the best we can give them, and Obama as their commander-in-chief just isn't our best. Not by a long shot. For what it's worth, I don't think that soldier should have shot off his mouth on facebook, but not because this president is touchy, doesn't handle criticism well, and just felt like lashing out at anyone who said anything against him, but because there is a better way to handle such things. But you are right, absolute, unwavering disclipine is a must for the military to work at its best.

Apparently you did not read or follow the enlistment Oath as written or did you make up one as you went on???

Even the Guard members swear something similar

Now tell me what enlistment oath did you swear to, because I swore the first one. and it is quite clear you swear to follow the orders of the president and of the officers appointed over you.

What are you to do if the enemy you encounter is the president of the united states, if he is the enemy within?

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I believe Danan is on topic. What he said is just another facet of this situation with a commander-in-chief who places so little value on the military that he doesn't give them enough backup, would not meet the requirements of his own generals, and expects these fine young soldiers to get by without enough compatriots beside them on the ground. I respect your oath, TPSprayduster, and I respect your willingness to give your allegience to your country. Thank you for your service to all of us. When you went into battle, I pray you had enough men around you to do the job without grievous danger. Too many of our good men are coming home with missing limbs and seared hearts. They deserve the best we can give them, and Obama as their commander-in-chief just isn't our best. Not by a long shot. For what it's worth, I don't think that soldier should have shot off his mouth on facebook, but not because this president is touchy, doesn't handle criticism well, and just felt like lashing out at anyone who said anything against him, but because there is a better way to handle such things. But you are right, absolute disclipine is a must for the military to work at its best.

No i have to disagree, this is about obeying ordering and respecting regulations. This is being made to be a political ploy in which Mr Stein is the pawn. LTC Larkin former got caught up in this political firestorm and paid the price. Everyt ime something like this comes up, some try to make it political. This is about respecting the oath he swore and as X explained both but you have some who claimed to have served i guess forgot the oath they took. The times i went into battle we knew what were there for and their was no time for well i don't think we should do it that way. it was this is the objective and how we are going to achieve it. Not well i don't want to obey your orders and if you are not doing your part then everyone gets killed. Mr Stein should have shut his mouth finish his time, get his honorable and chain himself to the white house gates. But he followed others people's word and now he is on his way out with an OTH. I guess he thought raise some hell, get his hand slapped and get out. I guess it is not working out the way he thought. Military does not make policy, they carry it out. if that was the case we would have a Military junta who makes the rules and may take away all of our rights. Since those who have served are already discharged so they can say all they want.

I believe Danan is on topic. What he said is just another facet of this situation with a commander-in-chief who places so little value on the military that he doesn't give them enough backup, would not meet the requirements of his own generals, and expects these fine young soldiers to get by without enough compatriots beside them on the ground. I respect your oath, TPSprayduster, and I respect your willingness to give your allegience to your country. Thank you for your service to all of us. When you went into battle, I pray you had enough men around you to do the job without grievous danger. Too many of our good men are coming home with missing limbs and seared hearts. They deserve the best we can give them, and Obama as their commander-in-chief just isn't our best. Not by a long shot. For what it's worth, I don't think that soldier should have shot off his mouth on facebook, but not because this president is touchy, doesn't handle criticism well, and just felt like lashing out at anyone who said anything against him, but because there is a better way to handle such things. But you are right, absolute, unwavering disclipine is a must for the military to work at its best.

What are you to do if the enemy you encounter is the president of the united states, if he is the enemy within?

Has he been designated as the enemy? Nope just another poster trying to prove their point. Not working. Bottom line is this if Mr Stein had observed regulations he would not be in this hot water and we would not be discussing this. End of the story, no room for spin it is plain and simple. Take out the displine and you have an ineffective fighting force.

Edited by TPSprayduster
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[quote name='Francie26' date='16 April 2012 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1334619237' post='935056'

What are you to do if the enemy you encounter is the president of the united states, if he is the enemy within?

Are you suggesting a coup d'etat?? You definitly have not served a day in your life.

Under what conditions has he legally been declared the enemy?? None.

Edited by Weapon X
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Actually your oath is to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the President of the United States and all officers appointed over you.

Roadrunner

Not exactly!

As a Marine I can say that what he did was in fact wrong and not in keeping with the high

standards of the Corps. Conduct unbecoming of a Marine to say the least.

But you might want to reread the oath your referring to, " support and defend the constitution

against all enemies both foreign and domestic". If the orders of the President are unlawful

, we as Marines all know that no unlawful order is

to be carried out. That is a personal decision that every Marine must make on there own.

But let me tell you if a commanding officer told me to kill one civilian of the enemy sect I would be well

within my right to disregard such an order. And if my country is in complete violation of the constitution of the

United States of America then every order that is given by said president is not a lawful order and should not

be followed. Nevertheless, these are matters to be dealt with in private while on active duty and the

Marine is in violation of UCMJ rules for making his views public. We Marines are better than that.

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I (state your name) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God

Here's where he went wrong, the UCMJ has guidelines for following, and not following, orders.

Oh and YES. Thats the same God that everyone wants to get rid of. I don't think it would be too far

a stretch to get himself off of any charges by claiming that the, oath, itself is not acceptable in this

country anymore. If that be the case then where's the violation? .

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Not exactly!

As a Marine I can say that what he did was in fact wrong and not in keeping with the high

standards of the Corps. Conduct unbecoming of a Marine to say the least.

But you might want to reread the oath your referring to, " support and defend the constitution

against all enemies both foreign and domestic". If the orders of the President are unlawful

, we as Marines all know that no unlawful order is

to be carried out. That is a personal decision that every Marine must make on there own.

But let me tell you if a commanding officer told me to kill one civilian of the enemy sect I would be well

within my right to disregard such an order. And if my country is in complete violation of the constitution of the

United States of America then every order that is given by said president is not a lawful order and should not

be followed. Nevertheless, these are matters to be dealt with in private while on active duty and the

Marine is in violation of UCMJ rules for making his views public. We Marines are better than that.

And you as a Marine and I as an Airman would agree wholeheartedly. But the problem with that scenario was that no such order was given, and the words of Stein before he was initially reprimanded were reprehensible and I quote:

;

As an Active Duty Marine I say 'Screw Obama' and I will not follow all orders from him ... has [sic] for saluting Obama as commander-in-chief ... I will not!

These were the words that first got him noticed and when reprimanded and informed that that kind of comments would not be tolerated, what did he do?? He made it look like he would not do it again and did it again.

We who are and have been in the military know that we do not make policy we follow it. We do not declare enemies, we give them hell and eliminate enemies. We don't have the luxury of letting dissent or anything that disrupts order and discipline enter our ranks, for that reason alone Stein has got to go.

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Not exactly!

As a Marine I can say that what he did was in fact wrong and not in keeping with the high

standards of the Corps. Conduct unbecoming of a Marine to say the least.

But you might want to reread the oath your referring to, " support and defend the constitution

against all enemies both foreign and domestic". If the orders of the President are unlawful

, we as Marines all know that no unlawful order is

to be carried out. That is a personal decision that every Marine must make on there own.

But let me tell you if a commanding officer told me to kill one civilian of the enemy sect I would be well

within my right to disregard such an order. And if my country is in complete violation of the constitution of the

United States of America then every order that is given by said president is not a lawful order and should not

be followed. Nevertheless, these are matters to be dealt with in private while on active duty and the

Marine is in violation of UCMJ rules for making his views public. We Marines are better than that.

So basically you are saying is that you can decided which order are unlawful. Mr Stein violated rules and regulations and no he was not told to shoot civilians of enemy sect. In war time situation you have to make that choice, if a civilian is setting a IED or tossing a grenade into a Hummer that my fellow marines are moving in then that civilian can cancel Christmas. I believe he said screw the president and he was not following his orders. Again we had another former member of the military choose to defy orders to Afghanistan because he believed the President was not legitimate. Well he is out after serving 6 months in the brig, dismissed and cannot get a good job. He followed his beliefs or should i say what he was told and his legal defense told him he would not be dismissed or serve time well he found out the hard way. Sir thank you for your service. In my day, saying one was not going to follow orders was not tolerated. now troops cry about lack of internet and starbucks. I remember not getting mail in one of my deployments. Gen Al Gray asked by a young marine in the field why they did not get any of the USO shows that the Army got, he responded i am your entertainment and you are here to carry out a mission and not to be entertained. After about 1000 push ups that young marine understood that this was not a walk in the rose garden. And also not to ask such question to the commandant of the marine corps.

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And you as a Marine and I as an Airman would agree wholeheartedly. But the problem with that scenario was that no such order was given, and the words of Stein before he was initially reprimanded were reprehensible and I quote:

;

These were the words that first got him noticed and when reprimanded and informed that that kind of comments would not be tolerated, what did he do?? He made it look like he would not do it again and did it again.

We who are and have been in the military know that we do not make policy we follow it. We do not declare enemies, we give them hell and eliminate enemies. We don't have the luxury of letting dissent or anything that disrupts order and discipline enter our ranks, for that reason alone Stein has got to go.

I one hundred percent concur with that statement. I was only adding to the debate that it is, at least in my opinion, the

duty of the military officers to put this nation back under the auspices of the constitution. As enlisted men we both know that we are

not here to practice democracy but to preserve it. If that has been disregarded by our government then it rest in the hands of the officers to

keep there oath.

Officer:

I (state your name) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

So basically you are saying is that you can decided which order are unlawful. Mr Stein violated rules and regulations and no he was not told to shoot civilians of enemy sect. In war time situation you have to make that choice, if a civilian is setting a IED or tossing a grenade into a Hummer that my fellow marines are moving in then that civilian can cancel Christmas. I believe he said screw the president and he was not following his orders. Again we had another former member of the military choose to defy orders to Afghanistan because he believed the President was not legitimate. Well he is out after serving 6 months in the brig, dismissed and cannot get a good job. He followed his beliefs or should i say what he was told and his legal defense told him he would not be dismissed or serve time well he found out the hard way. Sir thank you for your service. In my day, saying one was not going to follow orders was not tolerated. now troops cry about lack of internet and starbucks. I remember not getting mail in one of my deployments. Gen Al Gray asked by a young marine in the field why they did not get any of the USO shows that the Army got, he responded i am your entertainment and you are here to carry out a mission and not to be entertained. After about 1000 push ups that young marine understood that this was not a walk in the rose garden. And also not to ask such question to the commandant of the marine corps.

:lol: I think that idiot was in my squad. :lol:

were on the same page friends, I was just trying to point to the reason this Marine did

what he did. I was not defending his rite to be a moron. There is a much larger problem here.

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I spent sixteen years in the Marines. If not for a broken back I would have stayed thirty. During that time I am proud to say that I never disobeyed an order (even a few that I did not agree with). I was in during the Clinton administration. In my opinion he was one of the worse presidents we have ever had, but nonetheless, he was my Commander in Chief. I met the man twice and both times rendered the appropriate salute and addressed him as Mr. President. To have done anything less would have not only have brought dishonor upon myself but upon the Corps as well.

Roadrunner

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I spent sixteen years in the Marines. If not for a broken back I would have stayed thirty. During that time I am proud to say that I never disobeyed an order (even a few that I did not agree with). I was in during the Clinton administration. In my opinion he was one of the worse presidents we have ever had, but nonetheless, he was my Commander in Chief. I met the man twice and both times rendered the appropriate salute and addressed him as Mr. President. To have done anything less would have not only have brought dishonor upon myself but upon the Corps as well.

Roadrunner

Amen.

once again I think I have failed to give enough clarification to the point I wanted to make.

Imagine what it is like to go through life seeing things that apparently others do not, all the while

not being able to put what you see into words that can be clearly understood.

Maybe I really should just give in and let it go. Sorry to have bothered you all.

SEIMPER FI. Oh the joy to have given my all and to never have made it home...... ;)

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Amen.

once again I think I have failed to give enough clarification to the point I wanted to make.

Imagine what it is like to go through life seeing things that apparently others do not, all the while

not being able to put what you see into words that can be clearly understood.

Maybe I really should just give in and let it go. Sorry to have bothered you all.

SEIMPER FI. Oh the joy to have given my all and to never have made it home...... ;)

Dont give up. We all have these types of days.

And by the way Thank you ladyGrace'sDaddy, Roadrunner, TPSprayduster, Shabiliciuos (sp) for your service.

Edited by Weapon X
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(CNN) -- What would happen if you posted derogatory comments about your boss on a Facebook page that you knew would be read by your co-workers?

"Got a Birth Certificate" bumper stickers

There should be zero tolerance by the military for any partisan politicking by active duty service men or women. This is not only "prejudicial to good order and discipline," but could lead to the loss of lives.

We already have one dysfunctional institution marred by partisan infighting -- the U.S. Congress - we can't afford another.

Keep cheering him on and before you know it, their will be a coup and it might not end up like you think.

gee, all the butt head would have to do is produce a REAL BC to end everything, instead he is shoving a crappy fake and laughing in our faces.

You are right about the loss of live potential, but then, hopefully the only ones to go would be the ones that chose to follow an imposter and not the ones protecting Americans and our constitution.

If obummer and the spineless politicians keep it up they just might force a coup, already the military is conditioning solders to kill Americans, and trying to weed out the ones that may refuse to kill indiscriminately on order.

Then, what happens when the imposter is finally out, and there is finally a full vetting, and he is found to be nothing more that a pretender?

What happens to all the military that killed on his then illegal orders.

How many servicemen are in jail for following their squad leaders orders that turned out to be illegal?

I don't blame them for being scared, all of a sudden the military may not have your back if it doesn't suit them politically.

It is time for Americans to stand up for America.

Edited by divemaster5734
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gee, all the butt head would have to do is produce a REAL BC to end everything, instead he is shoving a crappy fake and laughing in our faces.

You are right about the loss of live potential, but then, hopefully the only ones to go would be the ones that chose to follow an imposter and not the ones protecting Americans and our constitution.

If obummer and the spineless politicians keep it up they just might force a coup, already the military is conditioning solders to kill Americans, and trying to weed out the ones that may refuse to kill indiscriminately on order.

Then, what happens when the imposter is finally out, and there is finally a full vetting, and he is found to be nothing more that a pretender?

What happens to all the military that killed on his then illegal orders.

How many servicemen are in jail for following their squad leaders orders that turned out to be illegal?

I don't blame them for being scared, all of a sudden the military may not have your back if it doesn't suit them politically.

It is time for Americans to stand up for America.

Not sure why the norm is to go the birth certificate when the subject is not the negative when it comes to the President. If you are active duty, be smart and not listen to the above types of post. finish your enlistment and move on. Best Advice for those who have not decided to make a stand and ignore regulations. Don't listen to the conspiracy theorist and get yourself in trouble. Stay on topic Dive instead of making this political. Hopefully other upstanding members of the armed forces won't be duped.

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