The Isaiah 9:10 Judgment

[CODE777]

everyone has been given the right and free will to choose, it's working out great

Hey Sport.Nice response but I may add that without GOD we are no longer. Thank to our Lord GOD's eternal love and his only begotten Son "JESUS" as our salvation. We"ll be alright. I got to go pray for this wonderfull nation now. Thanks.

[Goldiegirl]

An interesting discussion between Mack and NEOdinar....thank you both for intelligent conversation with food for thought.

[tim228]

NEODinar, I just have one question for you. What if you are wrong? I mean, if I was wrong then when I die, then I didn't really loose anything. But, what happens if you are wrong?

[kliklok00]

Getting back to the YouTube videos...didn't the sacrifice of Christ make the judgments of the Old Testament null and void? He did say "it is finished" when He died, and it is my understanding the full wrath of God (His judgment) was poured out on Christ just prior to His death in order to appease God's fury toward sin. My question---if we are still under Old Testament judgment, does that mean the work and sacrifice of Christ wasn't good enough on its own?

And by the way, Neo, I absolutely love reading your posts...keep it up. Everyone is free to believe what he or she wants to believe, and since no one can prove their beliefs beyond a shadow of doubt, more power to you!

Edited April 3, 2012 by kliklok00

[waterman13]

Ummm...while there may be a decline in the number of people attending church, where's the proof of non-belief growing at an incredible rate? While organized religion may be taking a hit, spirituality is on the rise.

Mack, I have to agree. I don't attend evangelical church services anymore. I left when I heard an audible voice during a contemporary praise and worship service telling me to "get out". I have learned more sitting on my couch - One on one with God than I have ever learned in a church service or Bible study class. He has shown me so much over the past 5 or 6 years and has opened my eyes to many deceptions of this world. It is "Spiritual" NOT "Religious"! JMHO and what He has shown me!

WM13

Edited April 3, 2012 by waterman13

[joekooltrips]

Getting back to the YouTube videos...didn't the sacrifice of Christ make the judgments of the Old Testament null and void? He did say "it is finished" when He died, and it is my understanding the full wrath of God (His judgment) was poured out on Christ just prior to His death in order to appease God's fury toward sin. My question---if we are still under Old Testament judgment, does that mean the work and sacrifice of Christ wasn't good enough on its own?

And by the way, Neo, I absolutely love reading your posts...keep it up. Everyone is free to believe what he or she wants to believe, and since no one can prove their beliefs beyond a shadow of doubt, more power to you!

If you love Yahshu'a then you were to keep his Father (Eli,El,Eloh) commandments.

[Nelg]

Getting back to the YouTube videos...didn't the sacrifice of Christ make the judgments of the Old Testament null and void? He did say "it is finished" when He died, and it is my understanding the full wrath of God (His judgment) was poured out on Christ just prior to His death in order to appease God's fury toward sin. My question---if we are still under Old Testament judgment, does that mean the work and sacrifice of Christ wasn't good enough on its own?

And by the way, Neo, I absolutely love reading your posts...keep it up. Everyone is free to believe what he or she wants to believe, and since no one can prove their beliefs beyond a shadow of doubt, more power to you!

Klikiok00, you are correct in stating that Jesus' sacrifice was to bear both the sin and the wrath for sin. It doesn't make any difference whether it is the sin of Adam or the sin of someone in the future, He took our punishment for us. What He "finished" was the work that He came to do, save humanity from sin. He suffered the wrath of mankind while hanging on the cross. He suffered the punishment or the wrath of God while in hades (the spiritual abode of the dead). The forgiveness of sin and our never having to undergo the judgment and wrath of God ONLY belongs to the believer. The work and sacrifice of Jesus was complete, but one MUST believe in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior for it to be beneficial.

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am He (God in the flesh) you shall die in your sins."

[Nelg]

Mack, I have to agree. I don't attend evangelical church services anymore. I left when I heard an audible voice during a contemporary praise and worship service telling me to "get out". I have learned more sitting on my couch - One on one with God than I have ever learned in a church service or Bible study class. He has shown me so much over the past 5 or 6 years and has opened my eyes to many deceptions of this world. It is "Spiritual" NOT "Religious"! JMHO and what He has shown me!

WM13

Waterman, please understand, the Bible IS the word of God. It is His written revelation to assist mankind in knowing Him. The more we study what He has said about Himself and the promises given to the believer, the more we grow to love and honor God. Our faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

When you withhold water from any plant for a period of time, it dies. The water is found in Christ. His word leads us to Him.

[waterman13]

Waterman, please understand, the Bible IS the word of God. It is His written revelation to assist mankind in knowing Him. The more we study what He has said about Himself and the promises given to the believer, the more we grow to love and honor God. Our faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

When you withhold water from any plant for a period of time, it dies. The water is found in Christ. His word leads us to Him.

I never said the Bible is not the Word of God. Not sure what you are trying to say. I study the Word everyday, in fact my favorite Bible is falling apart and needs to be rebound from the use of it. I was trying to say what God has shown me that these (most) denominations are teaching half-truths, which are lies. God told me to get out, I have found a few close friends that understand, and see Truth. Sounds a little like you are judging me. And by the way, He is the water. He was the water that came from the Stone, the Stone that the builders rejected.

WM13

[waterman13]

I never said the Bible is not the Word of God. Not sure what you are trying to say. I study the Word everyday, in fact my favorite Bible is falling apart and needs to be rebound from the use of it. I was trying to say what God has shown me that these (most) denominations are teaching half-truths, which are lies. God told me to get out, I have found a few close friends that understand, and see Truth. Sounds a little like you are judging me. And by the way, He is the water. He was the water that came from the Stone, the Stone that the builders rejected. What I am trying to say is I am tired of the denominations teachings, just as Christ was tired of the Pharisees and Sadducee's teachings. Why did all the denominations split from the Catholic church? Why do most still follow their teachings? Take for example Christmas and Easter to name a couple, do an in depth study of these. Want another study, the so called "star of David". Show me in the Word where the six pointed star is referenced to David. I can show you where it is reference to Solomon, after Solomon feel from the grace of God and took up other gods. 1 Kings 10-11, Revelation 13 (interesting study). Just as they did in at Mt. Sinai and took up the god of Moloch, and the star of their god Remphan. Don't be deceived people!

Sorry, wouldn't let me edit above post.

WM13

Edited April 3, 2012 by waterman13

[PowerGeneration]

Just remember these words ( I know Yea Not)

If you hear this from god its to late.

[NEODinar]

everyone has been given the right and free will to choose, it's working out great

It is? If god is creating more non believers then wouldn't it be fair to assume the prayer isn't effective since the opposite of what the prayer is intended for is happening?

Ummm...while there may be a decline in the number of people attending church, where's the proof of non-belief growing at an incredible rate? While organized religion may be taking a hit, spirituality is on the rise.

I hear you Mack, just google the topic, you will find many studies that support the claim. I read a study that hypothesized that by 2040 if non belief keeps growing at the rate it's at now, nearly half the country will no longer be believers. Here is one of the many articles I found on the subject. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html

NEODinar, I just have one question for you. What if you are wrong? I mean, if I was wrong then when I die, then I didn't really loose anything. But, what happens if you are wrong?

Well thats not exactly true Tim, what you are presenting is Pascal's Wager, and there are a few things wrong with doing that. First, it is very difficult for one to simply will themselves into believing something they know is evidently false, secondly, it would be logical to assume that god would not reward belief based on simply placing a wager, and third and perhaps most important, logically you would have to ask yourself the same question. What if you're wrong about the countless gods that you don't believe in. What if you're wrong about Allah, or Zeus?

Pascal's wager doesn't concern me because I just find it hard to grasp the idea that an "all loving" god would create intelligent beings knowing they would not believe but expect them to believe while at the same time providing zero evidence for his existence, only to end up burning his creations for eternity as a result. If any human beings were to do something like this they would be viewed as sadistic monsters. This type of non logic seen throughout the entire bible makes it clear to me that it is not true without even needing to consider the lack of actual evidence.

[Shabibilicious]

It is? If god is creating more non believers then wouldn't it be fair to assume the prayer isn't effective since the opposite of what the prayer is intended for is happening?

I hear you Mack, just google the topic, you will find many studies that support the claim. I read a study that hypothesized that by 2040 if non belief keeps growing at the rate it's at now, nearly half the country will no longer be believers. Here is one of the many articles I found on the subject. http://www.nytimes.c.../27atheist.html

Well thats not exactly true Tim, what you are presenting is Pascal's Wager, and there are a few things wrong with doing that. First, it is very difficult for one to simply will themselves into believing something they know is evidently false, secondly, it would be logical to assume that god would not reward belief based on simply placing a wager, and third and perhaps most important, logically you would have to ask yourself the same question. What if you're wrong about the countless gods that you don't believe in. What if you're wrong about Allah, or Zeus?

Pascal's wager doesn't concern me because I just find it hard to grasp the idea that an "all loving" god would create intelligent beings knowing they would not believe but expect them to believe while at the same time providing zero evidence for his existence, only to end up burning his creations for eternity as a result. If any human beings were to do something like this they would be viewed as sadistic monsters. This type of non logic seen throughout the entire bible makes it clear to me that it is not true without even needing to consider the lack of actual evidence.

It's obvious to me that you are a well educated, intelligent person NEO. I will even go as far as to say, because of your education, you are a hands on person....one that relies in touch and facts. This is just my opinion of course. I, on the other hand, am very blue collar, with a limited education and only technical in my particular field. With that said, I cannot debate with you, simple because of my limited vernacular and a touch of A.D.D. All I really use as evidence of a higher being is Faith. I haven't always been a believer. In fact, I thought I had a pretty good handle on life and my surroundings. When a life changing experience happened to me, I was turned on to the Lord through a friend, who would eventually be my wife. I went to the Lord in prayer and I felt better, but I didn't feel different. I lived the false life of a Christian, because my logical side would not allow me to give myself completely to the Lord (How can one who believes, explain the dinosaurs, as an example). This actually went on for years.....prayer after prayer. Then on one particular day, for no real reason, I let go and let GOD. And he answered. The lift I felt in my being was amazing. I knew He was there and that the strength I needed to get through my life's trials and tribulations would come from Him. I could not see it, but I felt it. This is all the evidence I have ever needed. I have Faith and through my faith I will receive His Grace. There is no dictionary definition or hypothesis or theorem that will ever credit or discredit my faith in the Lord, Our God. Have a good one my friend and keep on keepin on.

GO RV, then BV

[NEODinar]

It's obvious to me that you are a well educated, intelligent person NEO. I will even go as far as to say, because of your education, you are a hands on person....one that relies in touch and facts. This is just my opinion of course. I, on the other hand, am very blue collar, with a limited education and only technical in my particular field. With that said, I cannot debate with you, simple because of my limited vernacular and a touch of A.D.D. All I really use as evidence of a higher being is Faith. I haven't always been a believer. In fact, I thought I had a pretty good handle on life and my surroundings. When a life changing experience happened to me, I was turned on to the Lord through a friend, who would eventually be my wife. I went to the Lord in prayer and I felt better, but I didn't feel different. I lived the false life of a Christian, because my logical side would not allow me to give myself completely to the Lord (How can one who believes, explain the dinosaurs, as an example). This actually went on for years.....prayer after prayer. Then on one particular day, for no real reason, I let go and let GOD. And he answered. The lift I felt in my being was amazing. I knew He was there and that the strength I needed to get through my life's trials and tribulations would come from Him. I could not see it, but I felt it. This is all the evidence I have ever needed. I have Faith and through my faith I will receive His Grace. There is no dictionary definition or hypothesis or theorem that will ever credit or discredit my faith in the Lord, Our God. Have a good one my friend and keep on keepin on.

GO RV, then BV

Thanks Shabbs, I hear what you're saying and I don't doubt that what you experienced was real to you, I just doubt that it was god. Countless believers from every religion have had similar experiences. Some people even believe god heals the sick, I am not questioning the validity of their belief, just the validity of the claim and the reasoning behind it.

As you mentioned, how can you explain the dinosaurs and still literally believe the bible? You can't, so what it appears you have chosen to do is simply deny the evidence and believe in the intangible as opposed to the factual because it makes you feel good, and hey, more power to you, as I have said, whatever makes people happy in this world, and as long as they aren't trying to push legislation, or bring their beliefs into the school system, then people can believe whatever they want if it makes them happy and doesn't harm others.

I started out as a believer although I was never religious per say. But over time I simply could not find any real evidence to support my belief. Being part of a religion, sharing beliefs, singing etc. All the good things that can come from the community aspects of religion i understand, and I get how it can make people happy and cause emotional responses so overpowering that they feel like they are experiencing something other, but they could do all of these things and have experiences as non believers as well. For instance Mack brought up the idea of looking into the night sky to get a glimpse of god. I have done this many times (although not searching for god), and each time I have this feeling of closeness to the universe, like I belong, like there is a purpose. It is an overwhelming feeling to ponder just how vast space is, yet here we are, brewed from the same ingredients as the very stars we gaze at. that feeling is almost spiritual for me, but not seeing a god or needing a god to be behind that feeling is more spectacular imho. If you have ever seen the documentary "jesus camp", they show children literally being brought to tears from supposedly "experiencing god" and it's clearly just brainwashing and scare tactics that border child abuse. Telling a child they are going to burn in hell for reading Harry Potter or dancing is insane, and the fundamentalist nature of this belief system is terrifying. So I on the other hand can not settle for a delusion because it makes me happy or makes me feel good. No matter what because I can't logically convince myself that the supernatural is true when there is no evidence. i can not ignore the glaring contradictions between the bible and reality. To claim there are no dinosaurs or that dinosaurs existed with man or that fossils were placed to test faith is no different imo than claiming the earth is flat. It's just not true, and I care whether what I believe in is actually true or not, regardless of how it makes me feel.

Of course to each their own, good talks Shabbs, I will most definitely keep it movin. Take care.

[Goldiegirl]

It is? If god is creating more non believers then wouldn't it be fair to assume the prayer isn't effective since the opposite of what the prayer is intended for is happening?

I was going to keep quiet on this subject since I don't have the need to convince you or anyone else. God does not create non-believers. We have fee will. What you choose is entirely up to you not what he made you.

[easyrider]

It is? If god is creating more non believers then wouldn't it be fair to assume the prayer isn't effective since the opposite of what the prayer is intended for is happening?

I hear you Mack, just google the topic, you will find many studies that support the claim. I read a study that hypothesized that by 2040 if non belief keeps growing at the rate it's at now, nearly half the country will no longer be believers. Here is one of the many articles I found on the subject. http://www.nytimes.c.../27atheist.html

Well thats not exactly true Tim, what you are presenting is Pascal's Wager, and there are a few things wrong with doing that. First, it is very difficult for one to simply will themselves into believing something they know is evidently false, secondly, it would be logical to assume that god would not reward belief based on simply placing a wager, and third and perhaps most important, logically you would have to ask yourself the same question. What if you're wrong about the countless gods that you don't believe in. What if you're wrong about Allah, or Zeus?

Pascal's wager doesn't concern me because I just find it hard to grasp the idea that an "all loving" god would create intelligent beings knowing they would not believe but expect them to believe while at the same time providing zero evidence for his existence, only to end up burning his creations for eternity as a result. If any human beings were to do something like this they would be viewed as sadistic monsters. This type of non logic seen throughout the entire bible makes it clear to me that it is not true without even needing to consider the lack of actual evidence.

main thing is you cannot use logic and facts and mix it with faith of the heart doesnt work that way. Many try to simplify the logic and so many facts to back their claims as to say Jesus never existed and God doesnt exist yet they cannot prove that he doesnt neither. For me, it means what i believe with my heart and the feeling of just knowing he exists and died on the cross willingly for me and my sins that way i could have a chance in his father's kingdom when i leave of the flesh. Without his mercy and grace none of us would have a chance to enter the kingdom of heaven the only way is though Lord Jesus Christ.

P.s god looks into a woman's and man's heart not his logic aand brain he doesnt care about that. He cares whats in your heart and if you want to know him or have a relationship with God, so you must seek him.

Edited April 3, 2012 by easyrider

[Goldiegirl]

I hear you Mack, just google the topic, you will find many studies that support the claim. I read a study that hypothesized that by 2040 if non belief keeps growing at the rate it's at now, nearly half the country will no longer be believers. Here is one of the many articles I found on the subject. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html

Where's the link for the 2040 study? To be truthful yes people are turning away form the traditional form of "Religion" for more of a "Spiritual" connection with God...but that does mean they are non-believers.

[NEODinar]

I was going to keep quiet on this subject since I don't have the need to convince you or anyone else. God does not create non-believers. We have fee will. What you choose is entirely up to you not what he made you.

I hear you, but if you believe god is omniscient than that means you believe he is all knowing, if god is all knowing that means he would know what all of his creations would do prior to him creating and instilling free will in them. So by by that rational, god does in fact create non believers. If he expects his creations to believe, then why wouldn't he simply create believers if he has prior knowledge of which of his creations will believe and which ones won't. or why wouldn't he just make himself known to the world in such a matter that erases any doubt whatsoever? Surely a god that can create everything could provide some evidence, but yet he doesn't and will still burn us for coming to logical conclusions based on a brain/mind that he supposedly bestowed on to us? It makes no logical sense, so of course thats when we will hear the inevitable "well god works in mysterious ways bit"

if you decide to look at it objectively it's rather easy to see it doesn't add up. Take care

[Francie26]

It always seems strange to me that anyone can look into space on a dark, starry night and not feel or know God. It seems strange that someone can see the accuracy of the Earth, placed just so (within inches) in space, with a moon placed just so to keep it at a certain angle from the sun, that one can look at growing things, every day bringing a different day than the one before, that the planets all align perfectly to keep the Earth in balance just so, that the human mind is so much more complex and advanced with so little extra wiring or matter than are in the minds of great apes, that the very Universe bursting out of nothingness even exists, and yet, a Creator does not. It seems strange that someone can see the NASA picture of the "beautiful blue ball" that is Earth, blue because it is one of the rarest of all things in all of space, a planet with so much water, and not discern a purpose behind its uniqueness.

It seems strange that a person would even be able to think of God without God to put that idea in the human mind that conceived this thought. It seems strange that a person can argue against the existence of God, and yet, not believe in the God he perceived. How can a person even conceive of the idea of a God unless God exists? For example, can you think of an absolutely new, never-before-seen color? One not a blend or a lighter or darker shade of any color or colors you have seen before. Can you just make up an entirely new, pristine-to-human-eyes color? And if you could, can you imbue that color with an entirely new emotion, one you have never felt in any of its shadings before? Most of us feel certain emotions when we are in the presence of certain colors. And we also feel certain emotions when we are in nature, whether on the beach or in the mountains, or even in our back yards. This is because the colors of nature create specific emotions, and the colors in art also arouse various emotions. But can you make up an entirely new emotion, one outside the realm of normal human emotions, one never described before, and then, can you describe how humans feel when they are in the presence of that color? If you can't imagine a new, never-before-seen color, or a new emotion that might be aroused by it, then how on earth does the human mind have the capacity to imagine God, without a reality of God?

Can you imagine your own child, a child that is unborn? Of course, you can imagine that child, but can you imagine a time when that child's child's child's child's child's child, ad infinitum, may live and dream and carry life forward? Can you actually see that distant-future child in your mind's eye? Do you sense a bit of yourself in that child? What about you would live on in that child? Is it your kindness? Your sense of humor? Your laughter? Your cute dimples? Your intelligence? And if so, would that child think as you think, feel like you feel in the same circumstances, and know that somewhere back there, you existed, as evidenced in his own capacity to think and mull over ideas and come to conclusions as you do? Human beings are the only creatures on earth with the capacity to actually imagine something existing either before or after their own lives. Human beings are the only creatures on earth that are capable of abstract thought. That and our opposable thumb allow us to build Trade Center buildings, to go deep into the trenches of the Atlantic Ocean, and to to set sail into space--and then to return. We dream deep dreams, think long thoughts and imagine cities and dams and tractors and space ships long before they exist. But we can't imagine a color that didn't exist before we thought of it. But . . . we can imagine God. Hmm . . .

We live in a four dimensional universe, length, width, height, and thanks to Einstein, time. "I'll meet you at 13th and Main (length and width), on the 14th floor (height), at 2 o'clock (time)." But placed on a grid, science finds it necessary to make it a ten dimensional grid (I have no clue why), so some of them believe ours is a baby universe that escaped a larger Universe which actually has the ten dimensions, six of which we are missing. Physicists have drawn schematics of this grid, and have conjectured about more or fewer abilities humans would or would not have if we were still part of that original universe, or if we lived in a smaller one, say one with two dimensions. Given that we live in this particular universe, we have certain capabilities based on the dimensions of the universe in which we live. Those include our capabilites for intelligent thought. Remember, we can think of God, but we can't think of a new color. . . . So based on your capacity for intelligent thought, and based on your imagination which allows you to envision events and people that existed before or will come after your own life, and based on your capacity to even think of God at all, God must exist, or this conversation would not be possible.

[Goldiegirl]

I hear you, but if you believe god is omniscient than that means you believe he is all knowing, if god is all knowing that means he would know what all of his creations would do prior to him creating and instilling free will in them. So by by that rational, god does in fact create non believers. If he expects his creations to believe, then why wouldn't he simply create believers if he has prior knowledge of which of his creations will believe and which ones won't. or why wouldn't he just make himself known to the world in such a matter that erases any doubt whatsoever? Surely a god that can create everything could provide some evidence, but yet he doesn't and will still burn us for coming to logical conclusions based on a brain/mind that he supposedly bestowed on to us? It makes no logical sense, so of course thats when we will hear the inevitable "well god works in mysterious ways bit"

if you decide to look at it objectively it's rather easy to see it doesn't add up. Take care

No, he does not know what you will choose. The free will is given for you to use along with the "Awareness" that was mentioned yesterday by Mack.

It was not his intention to create believers. What would be the point? He created man/women in his image and their fee will and awareness will lead them to their own spiritual self. It is in the self-search that you find the light....it is not to be handed to you.

I feel sorry (truly sorry) for anyone who feels that we are here on this earth just this one time in this one life to experience all of this and there is nothing in the end. That makes you nothing more than a robot for the pleasures in life.

If you knew what I know and have experienced you would not be making your claims. I agree you're good with words and have all the logic to banter with, but your words hold a cold and empty meaning to me. I almost feel sorry for you, however you have free will and have the ability to be aware and find your true self should you desire it.

It is not my job to change or convince the world. Sorry that God does not add up for you. I wish you well.

Oh and let me add one more thing....animals do not have self awareness as we humans. They come from group consciousness.

[NEODinar]

main thing is you cannot use logic and facts and mix it with faith of the heart doesnt work that way. Many try to simplify the logic and so many facts to back their claims as to say Jesus never existed and God doesnt exist yet they cannot prove that he doesnt neither. For me, it means what i believe with my heart and the feeling of just knowing he exists and died on the cross willingly for me and my sins that way i could have a chance in his father's kingdom when i leave of the flesh. Without his mercy and grace none of us would have a chance to enter the kingdom of heaven the only way is though Lord Jesus Christ.

P.s god looks into a woman's and man's heart not his logic aand brain he doesnt care about that. He cares whats in your heart and if you want to know him or have a relationship with God, so you must seek him.

Agreed, faith and logic don't mix very well as faiths demands that logic be ignored. Again, It's not about disproving, it's about claiming what s real and what is not. It is up to the one's making extraordinary claims to prove their case, not the other way around. logic is simply stating the obvious in this case. there is no evidence to support Jesus existed or that there is a higher power so it is up to the ones claiming otherwise to provide evidence to that claim. If i told you zombies were real it would be my burden to prove that. So you can believe in all that if you so choose as there are also people who believe in scientology, aliens, and 70 virgins etc. If you choose not to care whether or not what you believe in is actually true that is your prerogative.

Why would god only care about whats in our heart and not what we think and perceive?? The human brain and mind are essentially what we are, so why would god focus on the heart which has no bearing on human beings other than supporting our cardiovascular system. The heart has nothing to do with our brains cognitive ability to feel and perceive things other than pumping blood to it. I get what you are trying to say, but when you look at it objectively it doesn't make much sense.

It seems if god is that concerned with knowing me and wanting me to believe, it would be on him to reveal himself since he created me with the doubt and failed to provide the evidence. I have looked and I haven't found anything, no one has, thats why they simply have faith and as you said faith and logic don't mix, it's just that you are willing to overstep your logic for faith and I am not. Take care

[Nelg]

The great atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say if he found himself standing before God on Judgment Day? And God were to ask, “Russell, why didn’t you believe in me?” Russell replied, “Not enough evidence God, not enough evidence.”

I think that most of the non-believers or atheists would say much the same thing – “there is not enough evidence.” This attitude is communicated to students by atheists professors and teachers on our university and college campuses, and the students repeat this like a mantra, “there is just not enough evidence.”

But what do we mean when we say, “not enough evidence.”? Not enough for what? Not enough to compel belief? Not enough to coerce someone to become a Christian or to believe in God?

Most people tend to be spiritually apathetic. They are either too busy or too unconcerned to be bothered about looking into spiritual things. Or, if they are “into” spirituality, they are chasing after false gods of their own making. Basically they just can’t be bothered to look into the evidence for Christianity. And, in my experience, most atheists are not even acquainted with the evidence. They haven’t looked! This is particularly true of university professors who are particularly abusive to their students. Most often they are skilled is physics, biology, or any number of disciplines, but not in the philosophy of religion. They are pretty good a beating up on a 18-24 year old student, they are no match for or will not go toe to toe with one of their peers. Most don’t know anything about the gospels and the New Testament. They have no idea of the proofs for the validity of the Bible, nor how it came to be in existence.

But that’s not unusual. I have a fairly good knowledge of the Bible, but I know very little about finance, and nothing about biochemistry or quantum physics! We are schooled in our discipline. You see, it is possible to have a profound knowledge of your given area of specialization, but only have a Sunday morning Bible class understanding of the Bible. When you study the life of some of the great atheists you find that they lost their faith around the age of 12, and they have never studied it since. What this means is that these people reject a belief in God based on the findings of a 12 year old!!

So when someone says that there is “not enough evidence,” what they really mean is that there is not enough evidence to coerce me out of my indifference and make me believe. In other words, if I choose to ignore it, the evidence is not going to grab me by the lapel and force me into believing. But of course the evidence is not going to be coercing in that sense, and why should it be?

You see the Bible says that the knowledge of God is unique in that it is conditioned by moral and spiritual factors. A spiritually indifferent person can have a perfectly profound knowledge of history, science, literature, mathematics, or any discipline, even theology, but a spiritually indifferent person cannot know God. Jeremiah writes, “ you shall seek me and you shall find me, if you seek me with all heart.”

[sportfisher]

I hear you, but if you believe god is omniscient than that means you believe he is all knowing, if god is all knowing that means he would know what all of his creations would do prior to him creating and instilling free will in them. So by by that rational, god does in fact create non believers. If he expects his creations to believe, then why wouldn't he simply create believers if he has prior knowledge of which of his creations will believe and which ones won't. or why wouldn't he just make himself known to the world in such a matter that erases any doubt whatsoever? Surely a god that can create everything could provide some evidence, but yet he doesn't and will still burn us for coming to logical conclusions based on a brain/mind that he supposedly bestowed on to us? It makes no logical sense, so of course thats when we will hear the inevitable "well god works in mysterious ways bit"

if you decide to look at it objectively it's rather easy to see it doesn't add up. Take care

Correct, He does have fore-knowledge and has allowed each individual to freely choose Him or not. He does not make our decision for us or we would be like robots with no choice. The result is true"worship" and love from the heart of each individual that chooses to love and worship the Lord.

[NEODinar]

Where's the link for the 2040 study? To be truthful yes people are turning away form the traditional form of "Religion" for more of a "Spiritual" connection with God...but that does mean they are non-believers.

Well the polls and studies would suggest otherwise. I'm not sure which of the many articles I read contained the 2040 info, but I think it was simply a calculated projection based on the growth rate the country is currently seeing.

[Francie26]

Oh, and one more thing. We are living in interesting times. In fact, we are nearing the end of the Mayan calendar, which will occur precisely on December 21, 2012. This cycle has occured several times in the past, but this time is exceptional because so many things are happening concurrently. Earth is turning around like a child's top, circling in its tiny center, plus circling by leaning sideways as a top does and making an orbit of sorts. It doesn't stand straight up, but leans sideways, which tells us that we move from one astrologial sign in the night sky to the next. In this, the Earth is also moving from observing one portion of the night sky to the next, and eventually completing a huge circle around the skies, thus this year, we will move from the Age of Pisces to the Age of Aquarus. This year will see the end of this long circle around the night skies. This entire transit takes 26,550 years, so we will be completing that transit in December. This giant orbit is not a perfect circle, but is eliptical, so we have completed this swing around the short end, which I believe is what has caused our societies and culutres to run amuck. There are just now other things happening that can cause a large number of changes, odd behaviors on a large societal level, and possibly even new beliefs coming up out of the darkness. For the first time in 26,550 years, our Earth, our sun, and the center of our solar system will be in perfect direct alignment. If the moon causes tides, affects women's menstral periods, and changes moods for both men and woman (go back and check where the moon was in its monthy cycle when the most crimes occurred--almost all done by men--you'll be amazed), then huge shifts of the Earth, herself, will play a role in human behavior, almost universally. I hope I get to live long enough to watch this play out, but after all this settles down, the earth should be in a good place to move into much more natural human decency and kindness, rather than having to endure the end of the middle ages and the horrors of the beginnings of religions that were based on the understandings of medieval men, many of whom were, themselves, just beginning to grow a more developed conscience. Christ came at the perfect time. If He had waited until the next 26,550 years passed, He would probably find too much decency in humanity for them to kill Him in such a barbaric way. Of course, this is from a perpetual believer that "things will be better tomorrow." I have always thought that, even in the most trying circumstances, but I know some people don't see things as I do. However, someday civilized human beings will look back at us and say we lived in the "dark ages" of human growth and change. Interesting, huh??!! hahaha (I love this stuff!!).