The Isaiah 9:10 Judgment

[Shabibilicious]

For the sake of this discussion, do you believe in physics?

Yes...I am going somewhere with this...

Mack, isn't it true that Physics is based mainly in theory?

GO RV, then BV

[NEODinar]

For nonbiblical mentions of Jesus, check out the "Jewish Antiquities" by the historian Josephus.

Many biblical events have been authenticated by archaeologists. Many have not.

I'd prefer not getting into a discussion of the truth or accuracy of the Bible. Born Again Christians take the Bible at face value. Not the best avenue for a discussion.

Good...ok...we have a basis for discussion.

Energy can neither be created or destroyed, right? Only converted to another form...

From what we understand thus far, yes, agreed.

Edited April 2, 2012 by NEODinar

[Mack0121]

Mack, isn't it true that Physics is based mainly in theory?

GO RV, then BV

Except for the really BIG theories...most physics experiments readily prove the foundational theories. Can't prove Relativity, quantum mechanics or string theory...but the foundational physics is "real."

From what we understand thus far, yes, agreed.

ok...good...

Would you agree that what we call life is some kind of energy?

[NEODinar]

Except for the really BIG theories...most physics experiments readily prove the foundational theories. Can't prove Relativity, quantum mechanics or string theory...but the foundational physics is "real."

ok...good...

Would you agree that what we call life is some kind of energy?

Agreed

[Mack0121]

Agreed

Ok...since energy can neither be created nor destroyed...only transformed...and what we call "life" is some kind of energy...would you also agree that somewhere in that energy is what we call consciousness?

[dog53]

Ok...since energy can neither be created nor destroyed...only transformed...and what we call "life" is some kind of energy...would you also agree that somewhere in that energy is what we call consciousness?

Looks like ya might have lost him with that one mack. Try using smaller words

hahahahahahahaha

[Mack0121]

Looks like ya might have lost him with that one mack. Try using smaller words

hahahahahahahaha

Play nice, Dog

[NEODinar]

Ok...since energy can neither be created nor destroyed...only transformed...and what we call "life" is some kind of energy...would you also agree that somewhere in that energy is what we call consciousness?

No. I can not state that with certainty as it is debatable. But for arguments sake we can assume it is.

[Mack0121]

No. I can not state that with certainty as it is debatable. But for arguments sake we can assume it is.

Then lets go back a sec...what is your definition of consciousness?

[NEODinar]

Then lets go back a sec...what is your definition of consciousness?

My definition would be the scientific definition which is described as...." Consciousness is a term that refers to the relationship between the mind and the world with which it interacts.[1] It has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind."

[Mack0121]

My definition would be the scientific definition which is described as...." Consciousness is a term that refers to the relationship between the mind and the world with which it interacts.[1] It has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind."

Why would we need to evolve a sense of selfhood?

[NEODinar]

Looks like ya might have lost him with that one mack. Try using smaller words

hahahahahahahaha

Whats funny is that you actually think he was using big words.

Why would we need to evolve a sense of selfhood?

I don't think anyone could answer that question. Considering other animals have self awareness I'm not sure how consciousness relates to Darwinian evolution. Where is this going though, what is the point you are trying to make?

[Mack0121]

Whats funny is that you actually think he was using big words.

I don't think anyone could answer that question. Considering other animals have self awareness I'm not sure how consciousness relates to Darwinian evolution. Where is this going though, what is the point you are trying to make?

Awareness of self is much more than animal self preservation. Human self awareness leads to becoming aware of the separation of the self...the ego...from everything else. This then leads to a recognition of wants and desires within us. Once we realize we have desires, it becomes logical to us that others would have desires. Without self awareness we would have no awareness of others and our desire to improve the human condition.

Helping others flies in the face of evolutions' premise of survival of the fittest.

If you want to cut to the chase, why do we have compassion?

[NEODinar]

Awareness of self is much more than animal self preservation. Human self awareness leads to becoming aware of the separation of the self...the ego...from everything else. This then leads to a recognition of wants and desires within us. Once we realize we have desires, it becomes logical to us that others would have desires. Without self awareness we would have no awareness of others and our desire to improve the human condition.

Helping others flies in the face of evolutions' premise of survival of the fittest.

If you want to cut to the chase, why do we have compassion?

Agreed, awareness is more than self preservation, but non humans have awareness as well.

Well, here are some theories........." What is compassion? And how did it evolve? In this review, we integrate 3 evolutionary arguments that converge on the hypothesis that compassion evolved as a distinct affective experience whose primary function is to facilitate cooperation and protection of the weak and those who suffer. Our empirical review reveals compassion to have distinct appraisal processes attuned to undeserved suffering; distinct signaling behavior related to caregiving patterns of touch, posture, and vocalization; and a phenomenological experience and physiological response that orients the individual to social approach. This response profile of compassion differs from those of distress, sadness, and love, suggesting that compassion is indeed a distinct emotion. We conclude by considering how compassion shapes moral judgment and action, how it varies across different cultures, and how it may engage specific patterns of neural activation, as well as emerging directions of research."

I'm still not grasping your point, what is the significance of compassion as it relates to gods?

[dog53]

Whats funny is that you actually think he was using big words.

I don't think anyone could answer that question. Considering other animals have self awareness I'm not sure how consciousness relates to Darwinian evolution. Where is this going though, what is the point you are trying to make?

Unfortunately your response dictates a rather pathetic notion that that the jest towards your incessant ramblings is somehow construed as not understanding. When In fact one can most definitely surmise that when dealing with moronic behavior patterns in the obviously mentally challenged one must take a deep breath and exclaim.

WTF

[Mack0121]

Agreed, awareness is more than self preservation, but non humans have awareness as well.

Well, here are some theories........." What is compassion? And how did it evolve? In this review, we integrate 3 evolutionary arguments that converge on the hypothesis that compassion evolved as a distinct affective experience whose primary function is to facilitate cooperation and protection of the weak and those who suffer. Our empirical review reveals compassion to have distinct appraisal processes attuned to undeserved suffering; distinct signaling behavior related to caregiving patterns of touch, posture, and vocalization; and a phenomenological experience and physiological response that orients the individual to social approach. This response profile of compassion differs from those of distress, sadness, and love, suggesting that compassion is indeed a distinct emotion. We conclude by considering how compassion shapes moral judgment and action, how it varies across different cultures, and how it may engage specific patterns of neural activation, as well as emerging directions of research."

I'm still not grasping your point, what is the significance of compassion as it relates to gods?

Awareness, yes...but not an emotional response.

Every religion on the planet has one thing in common...humans were created by God, Allah, Jehovah, Vishnu etc. in the image of the creator. Emotions. Compassion. Love. And the negative emotions, too. It's easy to say there is no God...but it's just as hard to disprove it as to prove it. Your lack of belief is just as much an act of faith as sportfisher's belief in Jesus.

There is more to us than just a chemical reaction in a boiling puddle of water 4 billion years ago. The one thing science has never been able to create is life...actual life. And it won't. We can understand it...we can break it down to basic DNA...we can alter it...but we can't create it.

I'm open to the possibility that there is nothing after death. Anything is possible. Are you open to the possibility that there is something?

I do think it's interesting that of all the near death experiences on record, not one of them involved someone who believed in God coming back and becoming an atheist.

[NEODinar]

Awareness, yes...but not an emotional response.

Every religion on the planet has one thing in common...humans were created by God, Allah, Jehovah, Vishnu etc. in the image of the creator. Emotions. Compassion. Love. And the negative emotions, too. It's easy to say there is no God...but it's just as hard to disprove it as to prove it. Your lack of belief is just as much an act of faith as sportfisher's belief in Jesus.

There is more to us than just a chemical reaction in a boiling puddle of water 4 billion years ago. The one thing science has never been able to create is life...actual life. And it won't. We can understand it...we can break it down to basic DNA...we can alter it...but we can't create it.

I'm open to the possibility that there is nothing after death. Anything is possible. Are you open to the possibility that there is something?

No I disagree, non humans have emotional response as well. or instance gorilla's feel grief when a loved one passes just as humans do.

Not true my friend. The burden of proof always falls on the claimant and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I told you the dinar RV'd today, it would be on me to prove that claim, not the other way around. Lack of belief is not a belief.

There is no evidence to support that there is more to us than that, but I understand why people want to believe that. I do agree that as of now science can not create artificial life, but they are getting closer and scientists are expecting to be able to do this within the next decade or so.

Absolutely I am open to the possibility that there is a god and an afterlife as no one can prove there isn't. However lack of understanding does not equate to god so just because something can't be explained does not mean it involves a god or gods and I don't see how or why people can logically jump to that conclusion. At this point there is no evidence to support the extraordinary claim that a god exists so I choose not to believe there is.

If you are open to the possibility that there is no god, then why do you choose to believe there is one if I may ask?

[Mack0121]

No I disagree, non humans have emotional response as well. or instance gorilla's feel grief when a loved one passes just as humans do.

Not true my friend. The burden of proof always falls on the claimant and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I told you the dinar RV'd today, it would be on me to prove that claim, not the other way around. Lack of belief is not a belief.

There is no evidence to support that there is more to us than that, but I understand why people want to believe that. I do agree that as of now science can not create artificial life, but they are getting closer and scientists are expecting to be able to do this within the next decade or so.

Absolutely I am open to the possibility that there is a god and an afterlife as no one can prove there isn't. However lack of understanding does not equate to god so just because something can't be explained does not mean it involves a god or gods and I don't see how or why people can logically jump to that conclusion. At this point there is no evidence to support the extraordinary claim that a god exists so I choose not to believe there is.

If you are open to the possibility that there is no god, then why do you choose to believe there is one if I may ask?

I choose to believe because of personal experience. I started out a Baptist...but have since become something of a spiritualist. I have had what can only be described as a face to face experience with God. That changes your whole perspective on everything. I can understand your reluctance...each of us must travel our own path to the truth. Eventually we all get there. Sometimes it takes more than one ride on this merry-go-round.

The reason you see so much similarity in nature is because one God created it all. It's the same reason why there is so much similarity in the DNA of all living creatures. We are all connected.

If you truly want to feel the presence of God, go out into the country on a starry night, stand out in a field, look up...and feel. Just feel. Don't think. It's worth the drive.

[NEODinar]

I choose to believe because of personal experience. I started out a Baptist...but have since become something of a spiritualist. I have had what can only be described as a face to face experience with God. That changes your whole perspective on everything. I can understand your reluctance...each of us must travel our own path to the truth. Eventually we all get there. Sometimes it takes more than one ride on this merry-go-round.

The reason you see so much similarity in nature is because one God created it all. It's the same reason why there is so much similarity in the DNA of all living creatures. We are all connected.

If you truly want to feel the presence of God, go out into the country on a starry night, stand out in a field, look up...and feel. Just feel. Don't think. It's worth the drive.

That's cool, hey man whatever makes you happy in this world. If by truth you mean god though, I cant agree with that.

I agree we are all connected, in fact our chemical make up is very similar to stars. I can't however claim that a god is responsible as there is no evidence to do so, and if one makes the claim that god created everything then they must also answer the inevitable follow up, what created god? For if you claim god always was, then so could the universe be.

I have been there and seen the night sky, and as Neil Degrassee Tyson often puts it, "It can be a very spiritual", but not in a religious sense, more so in a sense that I am aware of my connection with the universe. The mind is very susceptible to delusion and interpretation, so although looking into space is an awesome experience, I can not logically claim that experience is credible evidence for a god. The idea of it all being random and without a creator is to me much more awe inspiring. Good talks friend.

[Mack0121]

That's cool, hey man whatever makes you happy in this world. If by truth you mean god though, I cant agree with that.

I agree we are all connected, in fact our chemical make up is very similar to stars. I can't however claim that a god is responsible as there is no evidence to do so, and if one makes the claim that god created everything then they must also answer the inevitable follow up, what created god? For if you claim god always was, then so could the universe be.

I have been there and seen the night sky, and as Neil Degrassee Tyson often puts it, "It can be a very spiritual", but not in a religious sense, more so in a sense that I am aware of my connection with the universe. The mind is very susceptible to delusion and interpretation, so although looking into space is an awesome experience, I can not logically claim that experience is credible evidence for a god. The idea of it all being random and without a creator is to me much more awe inspiring. Good talks friend.

"Religion" is a man-made thing...I'm referring to a relationship. There is no more credible evidence for the existence of God than there is for the existence of love. But you feel love...you experience it's effects. You can't see it, there is no empirical evidence of it's existence, but you have no doubt it is real. Religion has nothing to do with the feeling...the experience. For the sake of this discussion, let's leave religion out of it.

Is experience credible evidence for anything? Using the scientific method, observation of repeatable outcomes is key to a successful experiment. How do you observe and record without experiencing?

[NEODinar]

"Religion" is a man-made thing...I'm referring to a relationship. There is no more credible evidence for the existence of God than there is for the existence of love. But you feel love...you experience it's effects. You can't see it, there is no empirical evidence of it's existence, but you have no doubt it is real. Religion has nothing to do with the feeling...the experience. For the sake of this discussion, let's leave religion out of it.

Is experience credible evidence for anything? Using the scientific method, observation of repeatable outcomes is key to a successful experiment. How do you observe and record without experiencing?

Agreed religion is man made, but I also believe god is man made as well. There is no difference between, Allah, jesus, zeus, Poseidon, mithra etc. You are an atheist in regards to every other god except for the one you happen to believe in. I just take it one god further. Love is an emotion, god is an idea, two different things imo. A "spiritual" experience can be explained with what we know about the human mind and psychology. For instance the white light people see during a NDE can be explained. There are people that have "experienced" alien abduction, to them this experience is absolutely real, but it is still a personal experience and can not be used as credible evidence to support alien abduction.

Thats a good question but i would say technically no, personal experience is very subjective so it's hard to make extraordinary claims based on personal experience alone without any other form of proof. Having said that, personal experience can be used to support non extraordinary claims. So for instance if I told you that unicorns exist because i experienced one running through my back yard, that would be a highly subjective and personal experience but it falls short of actually proving unicorns do in fact exist. On the the other hand if I was in the military and a highly experienced commander told me the best ways to survive in combat, I would take his experience as support that what he's saying is true, although technically it may not be

Edited April 2, 2012 by NEODinar

[CODE777]

I don't remember who placed a request for all of us to pray at exactly 9:00 pm EST every day untill election day for our Lord GOD to intervene in the destiny of this nation, but we must also pray for forgiveness as well as the removal of "ALL" those who seek to keep our Lord GOD out of the equation. I have been doing this ever since and I also hope those who agreed at that time are still doing it today. This great nation needs a revival desperatly. May our Lord God, Son, and Holly Spirit bless everyone of you, forgive us all, and take us under his wings forever. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

[NEODinar]

I don't remember who placed a request for all of us to pray at exactly 9:00 pm EST every day untill election day for our Lord GOD to intervene in the destiny of this nation, but we must also pray for forgiveness as well as the removal of "ALL" those who seek to keep our Lord GOD out of the equation. I have been doing this ever since and I also hope those who agreed at that time are still doing it today. This great nation needs a revival desperatly. May our Lord God, Son, and Holly Spirit bless everyone of you, forgive us all, and take us under his wings forever. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Well considering non belief is growing at an incredible rate, how's all that praying working out for ya?

[sportfisher]

Well considering non belief is growing at an incredible rate, how's all that praying working out for ya?

everyone has been given the right and free will to choose, it's working out great

[Mack0121]

Well considering non belief is growing at an incredible rate, how's all that praying working out for ya?

Ummm...while there may be a decline in the number of people attending church, where's the proof of non-belief growing at an incredible rate? While organized religion may be taking a hit, spirituality is on the rise.