CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

[dog53]

All i can say is Thank God you're not God, and unless you are just mocking anyone who believes in God, I do acknowledge your false assumption that Catholics are not Christians, it's absurd. We believe in, worship and adore the same Jesus you do, and have for the last 2000 years.

Matthew 7:1 1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged". That's a mighty big presumption you are making in that you could possibly know how Jesus is going judge anyone. Lets hope He's a little gentler with you than you are with the rest of humanity. Those who don't die in a state of grace with mortal sin on their soul along with the goats in Matthew 25:31 through 46 are going to hell

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

There's nothing in there at all about Catholics, muslims, and whoever else you've condemned going to hell... It's the goats who are going to hell, and we wont know that until The judgement.

You obviously didnt get it. Try reading it again the only thing I was mocking was the insane idea that only one religon leads to the path of salvation. I did not condemn anyone. Never mind whats the point

[Markinsa]

My Testimony: From The Darkness Of Roman Catholicism To True Salvation In Jesus Christ!

Posted on October 16, 2011

by WF WHITE

I was born in 1952, in Queens, New York. My family moved to Long Island and lived there for five years before moving back to Queens. While living on the Island I attended a public school. We were permitted to attend “religious instruction” classes once a week at the local Catholic School, and that’s where I was taught the Catholic Catechism.

I was taught that there were two types of sin, one was ”mortal sin” (the more serious) and the other was ”venial sin” (the less serious). I remember thinking to myself ”how can anybody keep up with all of that stuff?” I was taught that it was a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday which I had already done, and I knew that I had committed more than my share of ”venial sins”, so I started to become a little concerned about my soul. I was taught that there was a heaven, a hell, and another place called purgatory. Purgatory was described as a temporary place of punishment where the Catholic would stay until their love for God was perfect, and then they would proceed to heaven. Even at that young age their was enough conviction within my own heart to block out any thought of going to heaven, and even purgatory looked like a longshot to me. I went on to become an altar boy and being one of nine children I witnessed many ”First Communion” and ”Confirmation”ceremonies within my family. I must say that I always had a nagging question in the back of my mind, which was ”where would I go after I die?”

During the 1970′s I had an insatiable desire to know the truth. I would travel to a shopping mall on Long Island, because there were two large bookstores in the mall. I would head straight to the philosophy and religious section where I would browse through the books, shelf by shelf, from bookcase to bookcase. After the first bookstore I would head to the other bookstore and repeat the same process over again. I wanted to know the truth and I eventually filled a large box with books on a variety of topics. I read books on Zen and I read books on meditation. I bought books on self improvement and how to improve the mind. You name it, I bought it and I read it.

One night in late 1980 I was drinking at a club and around midnight I decided to leave. I headed out to the south shore of Long Island to check out another club. I had been drinking for a couple of hours, and I was tired, but I can remember thinking that I wanted to get my ”moneys worth” out of the weekend because it was back to work on Monday. I met my wife Cathy that night, and I remember when I left the club there was a ticket waiting on my windshield for parking on the street after 4AM. That was a typical weekend for me and many others of my age group during that time.

Cathy and I got married in July of 1981 and I still had the same desire and interest to seek out the truth. I read about a free seminar on mind control that spoke about improving ones mind power and memory. The seminar was being given a few miles from where we lived and I convinced Cathy to go with me. At the beginning of the seminar the teacher was talking about relaxation, emptying the mind, and visualization techniques. During this part of the class the teacher forgot what day it was and that just struck my funny bone. I could not stop laughing, to the point of tears, and this made Cathy laugh also. The teacher noticed us but simply smiled. The rest of the class had their eyes closed and they were in ”visualization mode.” As I look back on that day I truly believe that it was the Lord who protected us from becoming involved in that sort of thing. I believe when a person starts ”emptying their minds” that they can open themselves up to the occult, which in reality is the realm of the demonic.

During the mid 1980′s Cathy and I became aware of the Catholic Charismatic movement. The Mass was livelier and the songs were similar to those sung in Christian churches. We attended ”healing masses” which focused on healing and praying the rosary. The rosary contains prayers which are mostly ”Hail Mary’s”. At that time we became aware of what was known as the Marian apparitions at Medugorje. The ”Virgin Mary” was allegedly appearing before some young men and women and bringing forth a monthly message. We were fascinated by stories of rosary beads changing colors, from silver to gold, when people went to Medugorje.

During this same period we began visiting a church in New York City where the gospel of Jesus Christ was being preached. We heard testimonies of how people’s lives were being changed by the power of Jesus Christ. This fascinated us also because we were so accustomed to the rituals and rote prayers we said every Sunday at the Catholic Mass. As time went on we would attend Mass in the morning and visit the other church in the evening, and the power of God’s Word was bringing us into the knowledge of the truth.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

(John 8:31-32)

Cathy told a Christian woman at that other church about the alleged appearances over in Yugoslavia. The woman quoted a verse of scripture to her:

And no marvel; for

Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

(2 Corinthians 11:14)

This troubled Cathy and she went before the Lord and asked Him to show her the truth no matter what. She prayed before the Lord with an open Bible and an open heart, and began to see many scriptures which contradicted the messages that were coming from the ”apparition of Mary” in Yugoslavia. This was very upsetting to her because we were really into this apparition thing. We had purchased videos and invited others to come to our home to view them with us. We also handed out pamphlets which promoted the apparition. We were evangelists for Mary at that time. Cathy was convinced that this whole thing was not of God and she tried to convince me, but I was not willing to listen. This went on for several weeks until one day she came down the stairs with tears in her eyes and asked me to listen to her. Something inside my heart told me to listen, and I did, and I told her that I would pray about it.

I knew that I had a choice to make. It was either the word of God (the bible) or the messages of ”Mary” from Medugorje. I chose to believe the word of God. I can remember the day when the Lord lifted the spiritual veil of deception which had covered my eyes. I was reading the gospel of John and it seemed that the words were jumping off the page at me. I knew at that moment that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Son of God who came down from heaven. I knew that the Lord Jesus Christ was persecuted and slain on the cross for my sins. This was”head knowledge” before but now it was revelation truth from heaven straight into my heart. The Lord Jesus Christ had become ever so real to me and I knew that He died for me. A change had taken place inside my heart, and I was born again in the true biblical way. Jesus said this:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is

born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee,

Ye must be born again.

(John 3:6-7)

Cathy and I researched the messages from Medugorje and it was as if the Holy Spirit had taken a fluorescent hi-liter pen and began to expose the contradictions and falsehoods within those messages. We did the same with the other apparitions of Mary and we found them to contain similar errors.

As new Christians we now believed what Peter said and that we were now part of the ”priesthood of believers” (1 Peter 2:9) which encompasses people from every nation on planet earth. We now knew that we did not need the Roman Catholic Mass, which is called the ”Perfect Sacrifice Continued” (item 360 Baltimore Catechism p171), and which declares as its purpose ”to satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him” (Item 361 Baltimore Catechism p173). We now believed what Jesus Christ proclaimed right before His life expired ”It Is Finished” (John 19:30). We now believed what Peter told us in one of his letters:

For

Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,

that he might

bring us to God,

being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

We now believed what the apostle Paul told us in his letter to the Romans. We saw the value of the blood of Jesus Christ like never before.

But

God commendeth his love toward us,

in that, while we were yet sinners,

Christ died for us.

Much more then,

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

(Romans 5:8-9)

We now knew that the Mass, which declares that Christ through the ministry of the priest is offering Himself to God in ”an unbloody manner” (item 357 Baltimore Catechism p168), was not in agreement with the Word of God which tells us this:

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls:

for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul

.

(Leviticus 17:11)

We also knew from studying the scriptures that the real Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us:

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

(Luke 1:46-47)

Only sinners need a Saviour, and the Bible tells us that every single one of us has come short of the glory of God.

For

all have sinned,

and come short of the glory of God.(Romans 3:23)

The last time that I find Mary mentioned in the scriptures is in the book of Acts:

And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women,

and Mary the mother of Jesus,

and with his brethren. (Acts 1:13-14)

Mary is listed here along with everyone else and she most certainly is not exalted above the others who are mentioned here. Mary was praying along with the rest of the other believers in Jesus Christ unto her God. None of the others are found praying to her as I did for many years and is still done today by multitudes.

One of the most striking things to me was the fact that the second commandment found in the Baltimore Catechism was not the same second commandment found in the bible. The real second commandment is found in Exodus 20 and reads as follows:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,

nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,

visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)

In the Roman Catholic Baltimore Catechism the second commandment is listed as “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” (Baltimore Catechism item number 195, p 100)

How could there still be Ten commandments if the second commandment which dealt with graven images (statues) and which took up three verses in the scriptures is removed from the list?

The answer is found by taking a look at the ninth and tenth commandments in the Baltimore Catechism which are as follows:

9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.

10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods.

(Baltimore Catechism item number 195, p100)

But the Bible relegates only one single verse to this subject which is found below.

Thou shalt not covet

thy neighbour’s house,

thou shalt not covet

thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

(Exodus 20:17)

The Lord really opened up my eyes with this one because statues are found in Roman Catholic Churches all over the world. There are shrines to Mary all over the world. There are statues built to honor ”saints” all over the world. I can remember visiting a Catholic shop in search of a statue of Mary because I wanted to have my own little shrine in the attic of my home. A person had a choice of a plain white statue or one which included the colors of blue and white. I was shocked at the prices for even the smaller statues, and I never bought one. It was not long after that visit to the Catholic shop, that I got saved and saw all of these things as nothing but idolatry according to God’s word.

As the Lord continued to open up my eyes about the deception of Roman Catholicism I would share this with others including pastors. I soon found out that this is an issue which most pastors refrain from speaking about. There was so much compromise I did not know where to begin. I have to remind myself that the bible warns us about such things in the following verse:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times

some shall depart from the faith,

giving heed to

seducing spirits,

and

doctrines of devils;

(1 Timothy 4:1)

If the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of truth prophesied of such apostasy then it must certainly happen. Many pastors walk under the disguise of a ”love” which is nothing but a counterfeit love which creates a false ”unity” of believers in Jesus Christ. They lay aside the truth of God’s word and accept the doctrines of devils which Paul warned us about. On the surface they appear to be ”anointed” but in reality they are crafty compromiser’s of God’s word. Some are very aware of what is going on, but they remain silent because it is not popular to speak out against these things. True love warns people about false doctrine and calls it what it is in order to protect the sheep. True Godly and biblical love can be found in the ministry of the Jewish apostle Paul who never failed to warn the people whom he loved so dearly.

Wherefore I take you to record this day,

that I am pure from the blood of all men.

For

I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise,

speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years

I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

(Acts 20:26-31)

You can also listen to MY TESTIMONY ON AUDIO

[Markinsa]

Please let me be clear, as someone has brough this up and I need to respond and make this public. I do not hate anyone. I hate teaching and doctrine that leads people away from Jesus Christ. I DO NOT HATE Catholics. I dispise a leadership that teaches Satanic doctrine, which is anything that is contrary to the Word of God, AKA The Bible.

I am human, I make mistakes, but not in this case.

-

[learning all i can]

Markinsa, you have a very powerful testimony. Many would not share in such detail but I know that God moved you to share for our benefit and I thank you.

In your testimony you wrote: "As I look back on that day I truely believe that it was the Lord who protected us from becoming involved in that sort of thing." end quote

I know that you know, that this was truely God's mercy to you and Cathy. God's sovereign free grace is extended to persons who are morally incapable of any acceptable effort. Of course God owes mercy to no one so there is no injustice when mercy is not shown. Romans 9:15..For He says to Moses, " I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

Your whole testimony as well as all born again Christians is a divine perrogative. Praise the Lord it all rest on His / God's good pleasure.

How can we not fall on our faces and praise Him all the days of our lives. He alone is worthy

Your other pieces were also very powerful. I'm not tooting your horn but I do know that the Lord has raised you up to bring forth His truths and His Holy Word to others that they may also know the one and only True God. You have spoke His truths without embarassment and shame.

As you mentioned, even preachers and well know evangelist WILL NOT speak these truths as they know it will hurt their mega churches and their own back pockets....Many will receive their rewards here on earth.

I questioned you in the beginning as to why you brought this piece to us in the beginning..(you remember, the 1st page) Today, I found the truth about how many here believe and what the catholic faith means to many and how they have been fasely led to believe that they can actually pray to others and be saved with the help of others.

Now I know that you have been used to bring forth the message that our Lord wants them to hear...I pray that He may open their eyes and they may have ears to hear....I thank you for serving the Lord and bring the message that He gave you to bring all of us.

btw.....is that your website? I saw some poems and other things I've got to get back to read....I put it on my favorites...very inspirational..I may make it part of my daily devotional...thankyou again.....barb

[Markinsa]

Markinsa, you have a very powerful testimony. Many would not share in such detail but I know that God moved you to share for our benefit and I thank you.

...

btw.....is that your website? I saw some poems and other things I've got to get back to read....I put it on my favorites...very inspirational..I may make it part of my daily devotional...thankyou again.....barb

Barb, These articles were written by BF White. His name is immediately after the title of each post.

-

[learning all i can]

Barb, These articles were written by BF White. His name is immediately after the title of each post.

-

thankyou, I see that now...I was so involved with the message,I over looked the by who...thankyou for the correcting and directing. I guess I was just hoping it was yours and didn't look for names

[smee2]

Even though I was raised Catholic, studied my catechism faithfullly, attempted, unsucessfully to take Holy Orders (the Sacrament allowing men to enter into the priesthood or women to become Sisters (Nuns) and eventually gave up the Church and now consider myself a recovering Catholic, I found this post and the comments to be, eventually, quite hurtful.

I had my eyes opened about the Catholic Church quite a while ago. Most of it was finding out things about the Church and the "governing" of the Church. But part of it was being presented with an alternate viewpoint. Although I cannot claim the status of born again, I did involve myself in acativities that I felt carried the badge of "Christian ministry". Part of being a Christian, I was taught, was acceptance of others.

But here, I find that being a Christian gives a person the right, it seems, even the duty, it also seems, to castigate one they thought was Catholic. Finding out the poster was not a Catholic even caused one to heave a great sigh of relief. Isn't that just wonderful? A sigh of relief that one of our more popular posters and mods is, after all, not a Catholic. How horrible had he turned out to be one ... of those ... a Catholic, my dear. He didn't touch anything while he was here did he? Perhaps he left Catholic germs on the sofa when he sat down? You didn't allow him near the children did you He is, you know a Catholic! No? He isn't a Catholic? Oh my, what a relief! We can all go back to being our old, regular, non-Catholic, Christians, those chosen people who follow the only real and respectable concept of God, kind, forgiving, all encompassing God. *sigh* Isn't it wonderful to be so blessed by not being a Catholic!

Well, now this thread has opened my eyes again.

smee2

[Goldiegirl]

I wish we could just all get along. This reminds me of the childish rants...".my religion is better than your religion".

That's what the Protestants said to us Catholics as we walked home from school . In the end we will all go to one place ...no matter how much we argue the point here.

We are many....we are one...from the source!!!

I wish you all the best and lets hope this RV happens soon.

[bamagirl]

Smee2, I was one of the ones that breathed the 'sigh' of relief when Mark cleared up what he was trying to convey with his original post..... not out of fear of 'catholic germs' as you put it but because I have always thought of Mark as a brother in Christ and I was worried for his soul.... I do not believe all Catholics will burn in hell but I very FIRMLY believe that the only way to the Father is through the Son so with that said no, I do not think Catholics are true Christians and until they learn the true mediator between and God I don't believe their salvation is secure... the bible is very clear on this matter.

[Markinsa]

I wish we could just all get along. This reminds me of the childish rants...".my religion is better than your religion".

That's what the Protestants said to us Catholics as we walked home from school . In the end we will all go to one place ...no matter how much we argue the point here.

We are many....we are one...from the source!!!

I wish you all the best and lets hope this RV happens soon.

That's so sad. Children can be so cruel. As an adult, I'm not trying to prove my faith is better than anyone else's, I'm trying to educate. Any true Christian is more concerned with the other person's soul than they are with being right or wrong. I hope I am wrong, but if I'm not there are going to be many that will be suprised and without excuse on Judgement Day. People spend hours and hours and hours entertaining themselves with their hobbies, but when it comes to finding out where they will be spending eternity; they don't have the time to pick up the Bible and read it. Don't believe what anyone tells you, read it in the Bible and find The Truth there.

-

[learning all i can]

Even though I was raised Catholic, studied my catechism faithfullly, attempted, unsucessfully to take Holy Orders (the Sacrament allowing men to enter into the priesthood or women to become Sisters (Nuns) and eventually gave up the Church and now consider myself a recovering Catholic, I found this post and the comments to be, eventually, quite hurtful.

I had my eyes opened about the Catholic Church quite a while ago. Most of it was finding out things about the Church and the "governing" of the Church. But part of it was being presented with an alternate viewpoint. Although I cannot claim the status of born again, I did involve myself in acativities that I felt carried the badge of "Christian ministry". Part of being a Christian, I was taught, was acceptance of others.

But here, I find that being a Christian gives a person the right, it seems, even the duty, it also seems, to castigate one they thought was Catholic. Finding out the poster was not a Catholic even caused one to heave a great sigh of relief. Isn't that just wonderful? A sigh of relief that one of our more popular posters and mods is, after all, not a Catholic. How horrible had he turned out to be one ... of those ... a Catholic, my dear. He didn't touch anything while he was here did he? Perhaps he left Catholic germs on the sofa when he sat down? You didn't allow him near the children did you He is, you know a Catholic! No? He isn't a Catholic? Oh my, what a relief! We can all go back to being our old, regular, non-Catholic, Christians, those chosen people who follow the only real and respectable concept of God, kind, forgiving, all encompassing God. *sigh* Isn't it wonderful to be so blessed by not being a Catholic!

Well, now this thread has opened my eyes again.

smee2

Smee, I feel sure that you have directed your message to me and that is ok as I truely was relieved as I had thought or known for sure that Markinsa was a brother in Christ.

When he brought this post to us I had my doubts and I too, as bama was questioning his salvation. This is not judging but having concern over a fellow christian. As a Christian, we pray for others souls and pray that they all will come to faith in the one and only true God.

My relief was not designed to make you feel as you said it did, but to give other believers a sense of joy and happiness of not worring about Markinsa's true faith in our LORD Jesus.

and yes, my faith is as Markinsa and every other true born again christian. Mary cannot help save me. A priest can not pray and save me. you cannot pray me out of purgatory. Mary was a sinner just as I. There was only one sinless and that is Jesus Christ. If you believe anything different, then you have not been born again and the Bible tells us you must be born again to spend eternity with our Lord. You can believe "all" the Bible or just parts as you see fit.. I choose to believe "all"...down to every t crossed and every i dotted....

If you are trying to throw guilts with the cootie thing and germs on a couch..get over it. You as a mature,adult woman, knows better.

[waitingforrv]

How can you assume it is the Catholic Church that is being deceived? Are YOU immune to deception? It is the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus Christ starting with Peter over 2000 years ago. Every Protestant Church was started after the year 1500. One word about the rosary......it is not about Mary. The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ. If all you think about is the prayer "Hail, Mary", you are not praying the rosary in the way it is intended.

May God bless you all.

[Markinsa]

How can you assume it is the Catholic Church that is being deceived? Are YOU immune to deception? It is the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus Christ starting with Peter over 2000 years ago. Every Protestant Church was started after the year 1500. One word about the rosary......it is not about Mary. The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ. If all you think about is the prayer "Hail, Mary", you are not praying the rosary in the way it is intended.

May God bless you all.

Because I read my Bible...

The Holy Spirit: He Will Testify Of Jesus Christ And Guide You Into All Truth!

Posted on April 19, 2010

by WF WHITE

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:14-21)

Here is a very powerful passage from the Word of God. The Holy Spirit came down upon many of the Jewish people in Galilee, and multitudes heard them glorify God in different languages. This absolutely confounded those who heard them, because they heard the Galileans speak in their own languages, and dialects which they had not known before! The Galileans were held in contempt by many and considered to be rude and uncivilized, and this display of the power of God, threw them for a loop. Many simply believed that the Galileans were simply drunk, and acting foolishly, but Peter quickly stifled that argument. Peter made it clear to them that what they saw taking place was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. He quoted from the prophet Joel, where he prophesied about the Lord pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh. (Joel 2:28-29)

It was no coincidence that the Lord chose to move upon the Galileans in this instance, because He was showing us once again that He is not a respecter of persons. The Lord made a promise, through the prophet Joel, that the Holy Spirit would come upon men and women alike, and they would prophesy, see visions, and have dreams. Listen to those words ALL FLESH which were used by the prophet Joel, and fulfilled on that day. Did the outpouring of the Spirit of God stop short on that day, when the people of Galilee were filled? Absolutely not! The Lord promised to pour out His Spirit upon ALL FLESH, and that has been happening for almost two thousand years now. Peter also told the multitude that “whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved”! The two are connected together and can never be separated. When a person desires salvation, and they call upon the Lord, they shall be saved! A person without the Holy Spirit is not a Christian, and they are NOT saved. The Lord still chooses to use the weak and foolish things to confound the wise.

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Corinthians 1:27-29)

Now watch this ladies and gentlemen. I want to show you how easy it is to cut through the gross deception that is in the land today, and most of the “church world” also. The Lord Jesus Christ told us who the Holy Spirit was, and what he would do also. Keep in mind that the Lord referred to the Holy Spirit in a PERSONAL way, as you see in the following passages:

1] The Holy Spirit Will Testify Of Christ

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

When a person is truly born again of the Spirit of the living God, that same person will testify about Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is called the Comforter by the Lord, and he will bring comfort to the heart of the true believer. When I was born again of the Spirit, my unscriptural adoration of the blessed Virgin Mary stopped, because the Spirit of the living God showed me Jesus Christ was the only ONE that I needed. The Holy Spirit showed me through the scriptures, that He was the only way of salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:10-12), and the only TRUE mediator. (1Timothy 2:5) It is so sad to watch people hang on to their idols, and insist that they will never change, when you show them what the Lord declares in His Word! A person WITHOUT the Holy Spirit does NOT even belong to the Lord according to the Jewish apostle Paul! Read it for yourself:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

How important is the person of the Holy Spirit according to the scriptures? It is a matter of spiritual life and death!

2] The Holy Spirit Will Guide You Into All Truth and Glorify Jesus Christ

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:13-14)

In the passage above, the Lord used the word HE eight different times, and the word HIMSELF once in describing the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a PERSON, not a force, not an invisible liquid of some sort! When the Spirit of God comes upon a true believer they will GLORIFY Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit will not point you to Mary or any other go-between or mediator. (1 Timothy 2:5) He will testify of Jesus Christ and He will glorify Him alone! The Holy Spirit will not speak of HIMSELF, according to Jesus Christ, but He will point you, and I, to Jesus Christ. Not only that but the Holy Spirit will also guide us into ALL truth according to Jesus Christ. Please remember that these are not my own words, but the words of Jesus Christ Himself!

3] The Lord Anoints True Believers With The Holy Spirit And He Teaches Us

But ye have an unction (chrisma) from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1 John 2:20)

Any person, male or female, who has been born again of the Spirit has a teacher, and that is the person of the Holy Spirit. We as believers are to test all things, by the scriptures (God’s Word) as the Lord leads and guides us into all truth. When we hear a preacher speak, we should search the scriptures to see if what they are saying is true.

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (1 John 2:21-25)

Who is a LIAR according to the scriptures? Those who deny that Jesus, is in fact the Christ (Messiah)! Please do not miss that ladies and gentlemen, because that is describing the majority of people who fill the Earth today!. Do the people of Islam believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Christ (Messiah)? Absolutely not, in fact they do not even believe that God has a Son! Do the Jewish people believe that Jesus is the Messiah? For the most part, they do not, although a small percentage (as always) have believed in Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) There are countless other “religions” that do not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord at all! Jesus Christ is the Word which was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and that Word just happened to be God! (John 1:1-3,14) Jesus was not, is not, nor will He ever be, Michael the Archangel as the Watchtower Society and their Jehovah’s Witnesses teach. In fact Michael the Archangel is a worshiper of Jesus Christ himself, according to the Word of God! (Hebrews 1:6) Jesus Christ is the eternal son of God, who has always been, and he even uses the name “I AM” to describe Himself! (John 8:58) In fact, God the Father called the Son, God in the following passage of scripture:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)

Do not be seduced by those who knock on your door and ask you to do “Bible Studies” with them, no matter how “sweet and loving” they may appear to be.. Your very soul is at stake dear friend! In fact the risen Lord Jesus Christ, wounds and all, told His followers that they would be WITNESSES unto HIM, when the Holy Ghost came upon them!

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8)

The Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher, and the anointing (chrisma) or unction (chrisma) of that same Spirit will guide us into truth, if we allow Him to guide us. The apostle John spoke about “them that seduce you” because he knew that the true Christians were being bombarded by those who would seek to pull them away from the truth. How much more do we need to take heed of these words from John in our own day! Do not tell me that a true believer cannot ALLOW themselves, to be SEDUCED away from their faith in the Lord.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing (chrisma) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing (chrisma) teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2:26-28)

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1)

It was the Holy Spirit Himself, who prophesied through the apostle Paul, that some would depart from the faith in the latter times! The DEVIL is the one who works through the false teachers, and the false prophets, seeking to seduce the believer away from the true Gospel! As I have said before, the DEVIL has no need to seduce the UNSAVED away from the faith, because they are not IN the faith! The DEVIL already has most of the world in his DEMONIC headlock, even as he had me there until I was SAVED in 1989! The DEVIL is the “god of this world” and he will do all he can to keep a person blinded to their own need for salvation in Jesus Christ. The testimony of a true Christian will always glorify Jesus Christ, and show a great appreciation for the mercy that was shown to them from the Lord. When I was saved, I instantly knew that if I had died previous to that point in time, I would have ended up in Hell, without a doubt. An UNSAVED person is spiritually BLIND to all of this, and often laughs at such talk, because of their own blindness.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

When I see what is happening in the “church world” today, and how people are allowing themselves to be “seduced” by the teachers of today it is sickening to watch. People love to talk about the “anointing” of the Spirit and so on and so forth, but they preach a message that is anything but a Holy Ghost message. Where is the Holy Ghost anointing when multitudes stand by and watch the false gospel of Rome, ignored to the point sometimes where Catholic priests are preaching to Christians? Where is the Holy Ghost anointing when unsaved Jewish leaders are permitted to address Christians in their congregations, with no Gospel being preached to them?

I have spoken many times about people such as Chuck Colson, and Billy Graham, and their gross compromise with the Roman Catholic Church, but few are willing to listen. I use them as examples because they are very mainstream. I know that they are not being led by the Holy Spirit of truth, because the Holy Spirit of truth is the one who showed me through the scriptures that the Roman Catholic Church preaches a false, and soul damning gospel. I heard a well known preacher say that his blood boils whenever he hears anybody criticize Billy Graham. The preacher has it all backwards though. His blood should be boiling when he hears people such as Billy Graham compromising with false religious systems such as Roman Catholicism! Do you think that God is impressed with mere people? Whose Word is going to stand in the end? Their word or God’s Word? Read my articles regarding the false Roman Catholic doctrines on this blog, because they are very CLEAR and to the point. You will find very few Pastors who are WILLING to speak out against Rome, because they have “counted the cost” and it is just too much for them.

If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? (Proverbs 24:11-12)

Pastors, preachers and “leaders” in the “church world” have simply chosen to forget, that the Lord knows all things, and that they have a responsibility to protect the sheep in their folds from the poison of false doctrine! They simply CHOOSE to ignore the warnings that come from the Holy Spirit. People can hoot and shout Hallelujah for hours on end, even until they turn purple, but they forget that TRUE WORSHIP, must be done in Spirit and in truth.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias (Messiah) cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:23-26)

-

[EagleEye]

Two Cents from the Eagle:

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

As I read the back and forth of this thread, I wanted to weep for the anger I found. Being raised a Catholic, having found the Truth of the Word of God through the Navigators Ministry, (discipled by a Presbyterian), learned verse by verse Bible teaching through a Baptist pastor who took Baptist OUT of the church name in order to reach more people, learning about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the Charismatic movement (in a group off nearly 5000 men and women from all different denominations, ordained by an Assembly of God church that changed their name for the same reason mentioned above…i.e. to win more souls to Jesus Christ and His Word I know that I have met true believers in MANY different denominations.

As the Lord directed my path, I am one of 40 original men and women who have actually handled, tested and studied the Shroud of Turin, and to date the only original team member who has written a book on the subject. My GOAL: to win souls for Jesus. I was immediately attacked by a man whose other work I still respect, love and include in my Bible study classes. But he accepted the word of an avowed atheist over a brother-in-Christ in order to rule out our findings.

Surely I know all too well the dangers of Mary-ology and especially how the hierarchy of Rome can and does indeed deceive. The priest in charge of the renewal group was suddenly removed and clearly IMO professionally brain-washed for a number of months, when it was discovered that he was teaching the Truth. However I also know the privilege of speaking at a Catholic College and being allowed to clearly present the Gospel and feeling like “Billy Graham for a day”…when the local archbishop was the very first to respond to the altar call followed by somewhere between 2000-3000 people who were in attendance. I know truly saved Catholics and I also know some heathen Protestants. We as someone already pointed out are ALL sinners saved by His grace.

I have pastored a Bible believing church for 27 years now and I have spoken in more denominations around the world than I knew existed. I count among my true brothers and sisters in Christ MANY from different denominations and belief systems. I know Catholics that “hate” me because I know longer follow the teachings of Rome, as well as Protestants who “hate” me for teaching the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, miracles signs and wonders when their “theology” says those signs are no more….

I often say Seminaries are more like Cemeteries because they teach dead men’s theology. The Word of God is ALIVE…Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Funny thing though, the Hindu family who converted when their first born son (formerly dedicated to one of their many idols) who had less than a 50% chance to live was dramatically healed of numerous fatal conditions, they never questioned me about my denominational background or theology, they just wanted to know Jesus.

From what I have read in this thread most of the responses are very sincere, and I certainly thank those like Markinsa, who tell of their own salvation. That being said, we need to understand more clearly how others might easily misinterpret our intentions when we simply appear to be on the attack. What if we read that VERSE above as …to the Catholic I became as a Catholic so that I might WIN the Catholic….hmmm for those who understand the term: Selah. In order to win ANY people group to Christ, one MUST be able to THINK like them…ask any missionary or person who has ministered on the mission field…especially in the so-called “third world”. (I despise that term…I find it pejorative) Isn’t that what Paul meant in fact in these verses? On my very first tour to Israel, we had a Sabra (Native Israeli) for a bus driver and an Ashkenazi (European Jew who had made aliah to Israel) for a guide. After seeing GOD move in awesome ways throughout our tour, the bus driver wanted to be baptized right along with our group at the River Jordan (BTW the hymn is true: the Jordan IS chilly and cold---heck I would say frigid)…but the guide physically restrained him…shouting over and over…you won’t be a Jew !!! Clearly one man was won by our “lives” before him, while the other was stuck in a theological rut. Let’s NOT allow theology good or bad to deter any of us from the simplicity of the Bible: Jesus Christ and HIM crucified. Perhaps in that way it will be easier to love them into the Kingdom, as Jesus Himself said it…”get the log out of your own eye so you can see clearly to take the speck from someone else’s eye…” When my dear friend and publisher Grant Jeffrey passed away, I was appalled by the amount of vitriolic, judgmental criticism that was posted on the web, with “professing believers” lining up it seemed to consign him to the flames of hell. What an unbelievably poor witness to the lost. Let’s not have that type of attitude here please, because you never know who is reading and deciding that “we” are the hypocrits.

"church" = Ekklesia= the called out assembly of God's (ALL OF GOD'S) people therefore WE ARE THE CHURCH...the living stones...

Eagle sermon/diatribe over…

[Muleslayer]

I am so offended, by all this, it makes my hand shake, so I will try my best to express myself.

My faith, as well as you all, I hope, believe in one God. We believe He was born in a manger. We believe He taught his disciples the word of God to be share with mankind. We believed He die for our sins. We believe He was raised from the dead. We believe He will come again. We believe in repenting. We believe in loving our neighbors. We believe in the 10 Commandments. And more....

As I said the Blessed Mother is there to help guide us toward Our Father in heaven. Why is this so different when we speak to our love ones that are decease to pray for us. Why would you even put the Blessed Mother, the Mother of God under the title of a demon. Now that is offensive. Believing in the Blessed Mother has not made the Catholics stray away from God. So is that bad. Is this what you want to know or hear, that this is what she is doing, do you want it to be negative. I hate to disappoint you but no negative here.

Markinsa, I'm not judging you, or any of you, it was in Gods plan for you to bring this across. Your a man of God and I praise you for this. We have lot's of men here on the DV site that speak so eloquently of God. I welcome you all with an open heart. We have some women that I can relate to, that cherish our Lord. I'm honor to know them.

Every member that passes scripture quotes I read them and guess what its no different than what I believe. God said our faith will be challenged, well it is not just the Catholic faith, but all faith. Instead of uniting we are causing division amongst ourselves.

There's nothing wrong with the Catholic faith, they are not brainwashed. They're good people of God.

I don't have links, I don't need links, my links are with God. He knows my heart, He knows all.

Okay I'll stop there and step away for a bit.

Thanks for letting share.

My take is simple it never hurts to ask someone else to pray for you note I said ask not pray. Prayer is intensely personal.

There are things I would ask my own mother rather than my father & vice versa. I also feel that the church of old pre Martin Luther had its share of problems as well as post.

It is a human organization run by humans.

I humble myself before god and ask ALL the guidance I can get.

I was not at Fatima therefore I do not have an opinion.

I have read somewhere that faith is believing without seeing.

For the record was born assembley of god.

at 42 I found comfort in the catholic church not to mention a desire to live my life correctly.

Go ahead and neg me this is how I feel.

P.s. good for you patty angel!

[cranster]

Please let me be clear, as someone has brough this up and I need to respond and make this public. I do not hate anyone. I hate teaching and doctrine that leads people away from Jesus Christ. I DO NOT HATE Catholics. I dispise a leadership that teaches Satanic doctrine, which is anything that is contrary to the Word of God, AKA The Bible.

I am human, I make mistakes, but not in this case.

-

ahhh so you're infallible... and how did you come to that conclusion? there are 10's of thousands of protestant denominations all claiming to be infallible... and out of all those different translations of scripture how are you markinsa guaranteed that you're translating scripture infallibly? Unfortunately for you, that is a claim you can't support.

[cranster]

Demonic Counterfeits: How Satan Deceives People With His False Teachings About The Virgin Mary

Posted on August 15, 2011

by WF WHITE

wow you've been busy regurgitating fundamentalists tracts.

Unfortunately you are operating from the scripturally unsupported assumption that sola scripture is correct. Sola scriptura is a recent man made doctrine which came out of the 16th century reformers. Here is the guarantee that Jesus gave to His church... The Catholic Church which was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13)

Jesus guaranteed to preserve His Church from error for all time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He unfortunately did not give the same guarantee to the 16th century so called reformers and more accurately called protesters or protestants of the Church's inerrant teachings, (but fortunately the Catholic Church has made room for our protestant brothers and sisters in the family of God, they just don't posses the fullness of truth which the Catholic Church posseses, but they too have the possibility of being saved). The so called "reformers" were not given the same guarantee that they would not err in their interpretation of scripture, and thus the door was opened for everyone to consider themselves the infallible inerrant interpreter of Sacred Scripture, and like a wild fire has led to the 10's of thousands of protesting or protestant denominations each considering themselves the inerrant interpreter of Scripture... so when there are doctrinal disputes or Scripture interpretation disputes which one has the inerrant infallible interpretation of Scripture? The answer is when there are disagreements you just start your own church until someone disagrees with you and starts their own church. For arguments sake... for now we'll just consider that you're neither infallible nor inerrant in you understanding and interpretation of Sacred Scripture, or Sacred Tradition which has been preserved accurately through the Sacred Magesterium of the Catholic Church which is referred to here in 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter". By letter wasn't canonically set in stone as the Bible we have to day for 350 years or so from the time of Christ, and completely set by the council of trent in the 1500's.

So what did those early Christians do for the first 350 odd years with the only real bible, the Septuagint, (old testament)... which Jesus read from, and a few writings on papyrus that had yet to be sorted from all the writings including the gospel of Thomas, the shepherd of Hermes, the epistle of Barnabus and the book of revelation which was not considered Divinely inspired by the early Church. They had the Church... the universal Church of Jesus Christ... the Catholic Church to guide them and protect them from falling into error or heresy which were many in the early church... gnosticism... arianism among others. They had the Church which is "the Pillar and Ground of Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). Of course sola scriptura is a much too large topic to tackle in this thread.

Now onto your errant fallible interpretation of scripture about the much abused Mother of God. I'll offer a tract of my own.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption

Immaculate Conception and Assumption

The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine briefly two Marian doctrines that Fundamentalist writers frequently object to—the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

The Immaculate Conception

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Fundamentalists’ Objections

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

The Assumption

The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

No Remains

There is also what might be called the negative historical proof for Mary’s Assumption. It is easy to document that, from the first, Christians gave homage to saints, including many about whom we now know little or nothing. Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. Rome, for example, houses the tombs of Peter and Paul, Peter’s tomb being under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved—there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave their lives for the faith.

It is agreed upon that Mary ended her life in Jerusalem, or perhaps in Ephesus. However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.

Complement to the Immaculate Conception

Over the centuries, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and—the key—her union with the salvific work of Christ.

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

Mary’s Cooperation

Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation (Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4). Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35), and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17). Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.

All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27). As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38), Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.

The Bible Only?

Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials

presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.

Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827

permission to publish this work is hereby granted.

+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Edited June 4, 2012 by cranster

[cranster]

Two Cents from the Eagle:

to the Catholic I became as a Catholic so that I might WIN the Catholic

Out of curiosity why do you assume the Catholic wasn't already won? I will say this the Catholic Church is filled with cultural Catholics who know almost nothing about their faith nor the treasure they possess so they are ripe for fundamentalism. In my experience it's the Catholics who know next to nothing about their faith that convert to fundamentalism and then portray a caricature of Catholicism not from an understanding of Catholicism, but from what they are most of the time incorrectly told the Catholic Church teaches by anti Catholic fundamentalists.

On the other hand there are many many protestants coming to the Catholic Church especially when they look at history and read the early Church fathers from which there are some extraordinary Catholic apologists coming out of protestant converts. I myself am a cradle Catholic, and went to a pentacostal Church in the early 80's until I realized no protestant church has the Eucharist which is as Catholics believe the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. It is the center of Catholic worship. I will never leave the Eucharist again.

I'm not directing this personally towards anyone, but it does seem that protestants do seem to "convert" the cultural Catholics who are Catholic in name only... not in practice. The protestants who convert to Catholicism are usually on fire and searching for the truth and find it in the Catholic Church.

On another note, the shroud of turin is one of the most fascinating objects in existence. There are so many things on that cloth that are absolutely amazing... what a privilege to hold the actual cloth which contains the actual, literal blood of our salvation.

[cranster]

and yes, my faith is as Markinsa and every other true born again christian. Mary cannot help save me. A priest can not pray and save me. you cannot pray me out of purgatory. Mary was a sinner just as I. There was only one sinless and that is Jesus Christ. If you believe anything different, then you have not been born again and the Bible tells us you must be born again to spend eternity with our Lord. You can believe "all" the Bible or just parts as you see fit.. I choose to believe "all"...down to every t crossed and every i dotted....

If you are trying to throw guilts with the cootie thing and germs on a couch..get over it. You as a mature,adult woman, knows better.

Of course you do understand that what you are portraying here is a caricature of what Catholics believe. If you want to know what they actually believe pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it for your self. There are scriptural references for everything with the accurate interpretation of Scripture by the institution that brought you the Bible... the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

You can not get the truth of Catholic teaching from fundamentalist anti Catholics... you can only get it from the Catholic Church itself.

[cranster]

That's so sad. Children can be so cruel. As an adult, I'm not trying to prove my faith is better than anyone else's, I'm trying to educate. Your so called "education" is a transparent attempt to indoctrinate people into your anti Catholic beliefs. . Any true Christian... false assumption yet again... Catholics were the first Christians still are, and always will be Christians. is more concerned with the other person's soul than they are with being right or wrong. I hope I am wrong, but if I'm not there are going to be many that will be suprised and without excuse on Judgement Day... amen brother... and this is advice you should well heed yourself. You presume to know how Jesus is going to judge people and nothing could be further from the truth. People spend hours and hours and hours entertaining themselves with their hobbies, but when it comes to finding out where they will be spending eternity; they don't have the time to pick up the Bible and read it. Don't believe what anyone tells you, read it in the Bible and find The Truth there.

-

You obviously didnt get it. Try reading it again the only thing I was mocking was the insane idea that only one religon leads to the path of salvation. I did not condemn anyone. Never mind whats the point

sorry, I misread what you said.

I dispise a leadership that teaches Satanic doctrine, which is anything that is contrary to the Word of God, AKA The Bible.

I am human, I make mistakes, but not in this case.

-

You have not demonstrated that the Catholic Church has put forth anything contrary to the document it created... the Bible. You have adequately shown that you are incapable of interpreting scripture correctly.

I wish we could just all get along. This reminds me of the childish rants...".my religion is better than your religion".

That's what the Protestants said to us Catholics as we walked home from school . In the end we will all go to one place ...no matter how much we argue the point here.

We are many....we are one...from the source!!!

I wish you all the best and lets hope this RV happens soon.

There is nothing personal here. It's called apologetics which is the defense of one's faith. I did not start this, but when I stumbled across it, it was so vile I felt compelled to defend the Catholic Church.

[EagleEye]

Out of curiosity why do you assume the Catholic wasn't already won? I will say this the Catholic Church is filled with cultural Catholics who know almost nothing about their faith nor the treasure they possess so they are ripe for fundamentalism. In my experience it's the Catholics who know next to nothing about their faith that convert to fundamentalism and then portray a caricature of Catholicism not from an understanding of Catholicism, but from what they are most of the time incorrectly told the Catholic Church teaches by anti Catholic fundamentalists.

On the other hand there are many many protestants coming to the Catholic Church especially when they look at history and read the early Church fathers from which there are some extraordinary Catholic apologists coming out of protestant converts. I myself am a cradle Catholic, and went to a pentacostal Church in the early 80's until I realized no protestant church has the Eucharist which is as Catholics believe the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. It is the center of Catholic worship. I will never leave the Eucharist again.

I'm not directing this personally towards anyone, but it does seem that protestants do seem to "convert" the cultural Catholics who are Catholic in name only... not in practice. The protestants who convert to Catholicism are usually on fire and searching for the truth and find it in the Catholic Church.

On another note, the shroud of turin is one of the most fascinating objects in existence. There are so many things on that cloth that are absolutely amazing... what a privilege to hold the actual cloth which contains the actual, literal blood of our salvation.

to cherry pick and misrepresent my comments or beliefs only underscores WHY I wrote in the first place:

1) A rhetorical comparison of Paul's statement is NOT an assumption that all Catholics need to be won

2) I stated clearly that I know many Catholics that I believe are saved as well as Protestants who show no fruit of salvation

3) As a former devout Catholic I was never a "cultural Catholic" but was deeply involved in the faith

4) in the Kingdom IMHO the door will not read Catholic or Protestant but rather Jesus Christ

5) Most of what I read in the thread that saddened me was like children arguing and bickering while surely the Parents are shaking their heads saying where did we go wrong...

PS: as far as the Eucharist is concerned I must respectfully disagree based SOLELY upon Scripture

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Note: I don't condemn you....I simply disagree

[cranster]

Smee2, I was one of the ones that breathed the 'sigh' of relief when Mark cleared up what he was trying to convey with his original post..... not out of fear of 'catholic germs' as you put it but because I have always thought of Mark as a brother in Christ and I was worried for his soul.... I do not believe all Catholics will burn in hell but I very FIRMLY believe that the only way to the Father is through the Son so with that said no, I do not think Catholics are true Christians and until they learn the true mediator between and God I don't believe their salvation is secure... the bible is very clear on this matter.

what you're portraying here about how Catholics view Christ as mediator is inaccurate. Here is what the Church actually teaches...

Mediator defined

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God — angels, saints, holy men — plead our cause before God, they mediate "with Christ"; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession. Moses, howover, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Galatians 3:19-20).

Christ the Mediator

St. Paul writes to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:3-6) . . . "God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times." The object of the mediatorship is here pointed out as the salvation of mankind, and the imparting of truth about God. The mediator is named: Christ Jesus; His qualification for the office is implied in His being described as man, and the performance of it is ascribed to His redeeming sacrifice and His testifying to the truth. All this originates in the Divine Will of "God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved". Christ's mediatorship, therefore, occupies the central position in the economy of salvation: all human souls are both for time and eternity dependent on Christ Jesus for their whole supernatural life. "Who [God the Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature . . . all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fulness should dwell; And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven". (Colossians 1:13-20)

[cranster]

to cherry pick and misrepresent my comments or beliefs only underscores WHY I wrote in the first place:

I responded to what struck me, and how exactly did I misrepresent your comments or beliefs?

1) A rhetorical comparison of Paul's statement is NOT an assumption that all Catholics need to be won

2) I stated clearly that I know many Catholics that I believe are saved as well as Protestants who show no fruit of salvation

3) As a former devout Catholic I was never a "cultural Catholic" but was deeply involved in the faith

4) in the Kingdom IMHO the door will not read Catholic or Protestant but rather Jesus Christ

we can agree on that

5) Most of what I read in the thread that saddened me was like children arguing and bickering while surely the Parents are shaking their heads saying where did we go wrong...

on point 5 I will say this... defending one's faith is not bickering. This thread was started as a clear attack on the Catholic Church, which I chose to defend.

PS: as far as the Eucharist is concerned I must respectfully disagree based SOLELY upon Scripture

based SOLELY on scripture... John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day... we will have to respectfully disagree, but I think we both know neither of us is going to convince the other.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Note: I don't condemn you....I simply disagree

I respect your right to disagree.

reading some of my responses especially to Markinsa I see that I've come off a bit too abrupt for which I apologize.

[learning all i can]

Of course you do understand that what you are portraying here is a caricature of what Catholics believe. If you want to know what they actually believe pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it for your self. There are scriptural references for everything with the accurate interpretation of Scripture by the institution that brought you the Bible... the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

You can not get the truth of Catholic teaching from fundamentalist anti Catholics... you can only get it from the Catholic Church itself.

Hi cranster, I appreciate you pointing me to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but after reading the Immacutate Conception that you presented to us, I do not feel the need to search futher into the Catholic beliefs and / or theology as this is not what I belief. Sola Scriptural.

quote: "Redeemed in a more exalted fashion by reason of the merits of her Son." end quote.......This along with the entire explanation certainly gave me food for thought.

Paul tells us that justification or declared righteous by faith is every bit as powerful for me as it was for Mary, Abraham and many others that God chose to fullfill His divine plan. Mary believed what the Angel of the Lord told her and had faith that God would bring this to past. Just a Abraham believed, just as you, I and all other saints. Justification places us all on the same level and allows for no gradation.

Since my justification, I strive daily with santification and I will continue to do so until I have been called home by the Precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You brought up that Mary was chosen and I must agree. God chose Moses, Abraham, His prophets, His apostles and many others to bring about His divine plan. He even brought Pharoah up for His divine purpose, lest we forget Judas. Even so, this does not make them more save or better saved than you and I. Here again, our justification places all men on the same level. All true believers have been justified,(declared righteous by faith) and we are now being sanctified just as Mary. Sola Scripture.

I respect your beliefs and I respect your time and effort to bring your message. but you know as well as I that I can not change your mind as you can not change mine. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Until He does a work in my heart, I will remain Sola Scriptual, Solo Christo, Soli Deo gloria, Coram Deo.

[cranster]

Hi cranster, I appreciate you pointing me to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but after reading the Immacutate Conception that you presented to us, I do not feel the need to search futher into the Catholic beliefs and / or theology as this is not what I belief. Sola Scriptural.

quote: "Redeemed in a more exalted fashion by reason of the merits of her Son." end quote.......This along with the entire explanation certainly gave me food for thought.

Paul tells us that justification or declared righteous by faith is every bit as powerful for me as it was for Mary, Abraham and many others that God chose to fullfill His divine plan. Mary believed what the Angel of the Lord told her and had faith that God would bring this to past. Just a Abraham believed, just as you, I and all other saints. Justification places us all on the same level and allows for no gradation.

Since my justification, I strive daily with santification and I will continue to do so until I have been called home by the Precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You brought up that Mary was chosen and I must agree. God chose Moses, Abraham, His prophets, His apostles and many others to bring about His divine plan. He even brought Pharoah up for His divine purpose, lest we forget Judas. Even so, this does not make them more save or better saved than you and I. Here again, our justification places all men on the same level. All true believers have been justified,(declared righteous by faith) and we are now being sanctified just as Mary. Sola Scripture.

I respect your beliefs and I respect your time and effort to bring your message. but you know as well as I that I can not change your mind as you can not change mine. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Until He does a work in my heart, I will remain Sola Scriptual, Solo Christo, Soli Deo gloria, Coram Deo.

the whole point of responding to this thread was that it was a major attack on Catholicism and the Blessed Mother specifically, that I chose to defend. I respect your right to believe whatever works for you.

Edited June 5, 2012 by cranster