Religion and Control of the Masses

[Scrumdiddles]

Religion and politics have always been intricately linked…

• ‘Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful’ ~ Seneca (5 BCE – 65 CE)
• ‘Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet’ ~ Napoleon (1769 – 1821)

Throughout history, monarchs, governments, and politicians of all stripes have used religion as a tool for controlling the masses. There is something about religion that makes it ideal as a tool of manipulation. Perhaps part of this ‘something’ lies in the religious texts themselves? Let’s see…

Christianity:

Christianity, for one, openly advocates for unquestioning obedience to those in authority.

Romans 13:1-2 says:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

But what happens if the person in who is the ‘governing authority’ is a brutal dictator, such as Adolf Hitler?

A Youtuber called ProfMTH has a wonderful video illustrating this conundrum:

So if Romans 13:1-2 is to be believed, it means all Christian believers must accept whatever rulers they get, no matter how cruel, ruthless, or corrupt they are… for they were put there by ‘God’, and to rebel against them is to rebel against what ‘God’ has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves.

Then of course there’s that whole thing about giving to Caesar…

Many monarchies in Europe during the Middle Ages sustained their power by claiming that they were divinely chosen to rule over the rest.

Islam:

The Qur’an instructs Muslims to obey those who have been ‘given authority’, in addition to ‘God’ and the ‘Apostle’. Qur’an 4:59 says:

‘O believers! Obey God and obey the Apostle and those who have been given authority [uulaa al-amr] among you’

Islam is viewed by the vast majority of its adherents to be a political system in and of itself, with its own system of justice. Iran

As executor of the will of ‘God’:

In a previous post I said of religion…

…the most widely practiced forms of it (i.e. Judaism, Christianity & Islam) claim to derive inspiration from a divine being whose prescriptions for life are believed to be absolute. Further, acting in service of this being by preserving, propagating, and enforcing its absolute prescriptions for life, is seen by most who subscribe to these religions as the greatest possible act of virtue. There is therefore very little room for debate in resolving differences in opinion on these ‘absolute’ prescriptions for life, and it is easy to see how hostility or violence ensues when these differing opinions cross paths.

By portraying himself/herself as a leader acting to enforce ‘God’s absoluteprescriptions for society, a leader (in a highly religious society) can usually expect to face minimal public resistance to otherwise questionable actions he or she may decide to undertake – and some cases, even receive overwhelming support for them.

Religion is an effective tool for control… one that fosters blind loyalty to authority – which is why throughout human history, it has tended to go hand in hand with politics.

Disclaimer: This article in no way reflects the belief of me, DV or any one in this forum. This is a article used for a debate.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Scrumdiddles

[SgtFuryUSCZ]

***///

We're a little busy here watching an RV egg hatch...

Why dontcha trot this stuff out a little later, son.

Thankye kindly.

[George Hayduke]

***///

We're a little busy here watching an RV egg hatch...

Why dontcha trot this stuff out a little later, son.

Thankye kindly.

O Sarge - I love a good theological debate - steel sharpening steel kind of thing... No offense but I'm gonna jump right in and see what he's got

[chocolate1]

Religion and politics have always been intricately linked…

• ‘Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful’ ~ Seneca (5 BCE – 65 CE)
• ‘Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet’ ~ Napoleon (1769 – 1821)

Throughout history, monarchs, governments, and politicians of all stripes have used religion as a tool for controlling the masses. There is something about religion that makes it ideal as a tool of manipulation. Perhaps part of this ‘something’ lies in the religious texts themselves? Let’s see…

Christianity:

Christianity, for one, openly advocates for unquestioning obedience to those in authority.

Romans 13:1-2 says:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

But what happens if the person in who is the ‘governing authority’ is a brutal dictator, such as Adolf Hitler?

...i only read this far and i stopped - I don't want to go any further on this topic. But, obviously, Scrumdiddles - that scripture did not apply to Adolf Hitler. Hitler was a murderer - and God was not saying, 'Hey, man - obey the dude!'

C'mon!

[carlos in san diego]

I for one agree Scrum. The church has historicaly always sided with the elite. Their interest was and continues to be their self preservation and wealth at the expence of the empoverished masses. nothing new here...History books a full of it, if you know how to descern the truth from the BS.

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to see that by my own words, I do not respect man's role in any church or religion. I agree that the church has used it's influence over the masses to control them...while they promise eternal salvation if you comply and eternal damnation if you do not. People are after all easily controled with intangable conceps. I call them lies.

truthfully, I don't believe that originaly, when cristianity was in it's infancy, that there was a grand conspiracy to control the mases, this only happend when religions formalized and solidified their positions through a hirarchal system...and through man's intervention.

Man's intervention led to hundreds of years of the bloodiest wars witnessed by humanity..The Crusades,an absolutely pointless series of wars. Followed by unspeacable horrors in the Inquisition, again followed by many wars in Europe all in the name of Christ. The wars and tentions have continued to this day.

All justified by the saying.."It's God's will" When will people wake up and learn from history?

We get no true leadership to modern day social problems from the church....just dogma and rhetoric, all they want is your money!

Today the Catholic Church continues it's campaign of ignorance upon the poor masses, by forbiding contraception. Just when the world is fast running out of natural resouces, the church continues to promote an unrealistic agenda based on archaic beliefs that have no place in modern society. With friends like them, we do not need enemies!

Thanks Scrum! Carlos

Edited February 14, 2012 by carlos in san diego

[JDFINV]

I for one agree Scrum. The church has historicaly always sided with the elite. Their interest was and continues to be their self preservation and wealth at the expence of the empoverished

masses. nothing new here...History books a full of it, if you know how to descern the truth from the BS.

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to see that by my own words, I do not respect man's role in any church or religion. I agree that the church has used it's influence over the masses to control them...while they promise eternal salvation if you comply and eternal damnation if you do not. People are after all easily controled with intangable conceps. I call them lies.

truthfully, I don't believe that originaly, when cristianity was in it's infancy, that there was a grand conspiracy to control the mases, this only happend when religions formalized and solidified their positions through a hirarchal system...and through ma's intervention.

Man's intervention led to hundreds of years of the bloodiest wars witnessed by humanity..The Crusades,an absolutely pointless series of wars. Followed by unspeacable horrors in the Inquisition, again followed by many wars in Europe all in the name of Christ. The wars and tentions have continued to this day.

All justified by the saying.."It's God's will" When will people wake up and learn from history?

We get no true leadership to modern day social problems from the church....just dogma and rhetoric, all they want is your money!

Today the Catholic Church continues it's campaign of ignorance upon the poor masses, by forbiding contraception. Just when the world is fast running out of natural resouces, the church continues to promote an unrealistic agenda based on archaic beliefs that have no place in modern society. With friends like them, we do not need enemies!

Thanks Scrum! Carlos

Could not has said it better myself

Thank you Carlos

[Tiffany23]

If we could put our differences aside for this post, I'd like to provide my thoughts on this.

As both an atheist and a Buddhist, I have come to the conclusion that I won't not want America to turn away from religion.

Yes, I know that may be a shock to some of you but here is my point. Many people of faith believe that if they do good things they will be rewarded in Heaven. Likewise, if they do bad things they will either spend eternity in Hell or the water down version, they will be sent away from God's love (kind of a go to your room vs spanking punishment).

Now, what would happen if people of faith were somehow convinced (bear with me now) that there wasn't a God. That is, that they could do anything they wanted and have no eternal consequence. I think anarchy would take place very quickly.

Whether there is a supreme being, is not the point, but merely the belief that there is, keeps people in check.

Tiff

[umbertino]

***///

We're a little busy here watching an RV egg hatch...

Why dontcha trot this stuff out a little later, son.

Thankye kindly.

This is the OFF TOPIC section

[Markinsa]

This is a long read, but very good information.

http://bible.org/article/paul-and-civil-obedience-romans-131-7

To summarize, yes we are supposed to submit to our Governments. No we aren't supposed to do everything we are commanded to do. I.E. Murder, or anything that a Christian would consider sinful. We are to suffer any punishment for not doing what we were commanded to do by our government.

-

[easyrider]

This is a long read, but very good information.

http://bible.org/art...ce-romans-131-7

To summarize, yes we are supposed to submit to our Governments. No we aren't supposed to do everything we are commanded to do. I.E. Murder, or anything that a Christian would consider sinful. We are to suffer any punishment for not doing what we were commanded to do by our government.

-

true, its my belief GOD indeed did put governments in place to control and keep peace at bay. Only problem is when the government and as human beings start to abuse the power and the people suffer from it. I'm not saying we should try to replace the government because honestly without police and goverment this world would be complete hell on earth. What needs to be changed is the structure of our government and the abusing its power and focusing on their people not on greed.

Edited February 14, 2012 by easyrider

[willy1der]

true, its my belief GOD indeed did put governments in place to control and keep peace at bay. Only problem is when the government and as human beings start to abuse the power and the people suffer from it. I'm not saying we should try to replace the government because honestly without police and goverment this world would be complete hell on earth. What needs to be changed is the structure of our government and the abusing its power and focusing on their people not on greed.

easy I think our founders set up a great structure that need not change. we need to remind those who we have elected to return to constitutional gov't. God says we shouldn't remove the ancient landmarks. our constitution and bill of rights are ancient landmarks. people think the word of God doesn't apply to todays world, I disagree. we will be challenged as christians, thrown in prison and some even murdered for righteousness sake. complete hell on earth will be when the Holy Spirit is removed, who is the prince of peace!

[George Hayduke]

Scrums wrote:

“The most widely practiced forms of it (i.e. Judaism, Christianity & Islam) claim to derive inspiration from a divine being whose prescriptions for life are believed to be absolute. Further, acting in service of this being by preserving, propagating, and enforcing its absolute prescriptions for life, is seen by most who subscribe to these religions as the greatest possible act of virtue. There is therefore very little room for debate in resolving differences in opinion on these ‘absolute’ prescriptions for life, and it is easy to see how hostility or violence ensues when these differing opinions cross paths.

By portraying himself/herself as a leader acting to enforce ‘God’s absolute prescriptions for society, a leader (in a highly religious society) can usually expect to face minimal public resistance to otherwise questionable actions he or she may decide to undertake – and some cases, even receive overwhelming support for them.”

And the disclaimer: “This article in no way reflects the belief of me, DV or anyone in this forum. This is a article used for a debate.”

I think the above succinctly illustrates a view of religious conflict that you reject as a held belief, although I do think it is a bit far reaching to claim to speak for others on DV. As you have correctly stated, there is little room for debate between Judaism, Christianity and Islam for all three claim absolute truth. This should be a rather short debate if one can actually call it that.

It appears to me that the underlying premise of your ‘point’ or ‘points’ is threefold: #1. Leaders use religion to manipulate society; #2. Violence and hostility will occur within society by religious people; #3. The world would be a better place if leaders and people were not religious.

To point #1: Some leaders do use religion to manipulate society. Some of those leaders are also ‘believers’ of their religion and act accordingly to their religious belief and their conscience. Those leaders wish not to manipulate people for their own personal desires of power and wealth but instead for the virtues of their religion.

You quote Romans 13:1-2 and state, “So if Romans 13:1-2 is to be believed, it means all Christian believers must accept whatever rulers they get, no matter how cruel, ruthless, or corrupt they are… for they were put there by ‘God’, and to rebel against them is to rebel against what ‘God’ has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”

You have referenced only two verses out of eight within Romans 13 that address submission to government authority. And, you have only referenced Romans out of six books that address this issue. (Romans 13:1-7; Titus3:1; 1 Peter 2:13; Exodus 5; Daniel 3 &6; Revelation 13).

“But what happens if the person in who is the ‘governing authority’ is a brutal dictator, such as Adolf Hitler?”

It is true, Christians are required to accept whatever ruler they get but, they are under no commandment to carryout cruel, ruthless or corrupt acts of same said ruler. Civil disobedience is warranted when such a leader or government attempts to compel unrighteousness. (Exodus 5; Daniel 3 & 6; Revelation 13) Hitler expressed his belief that by ‘fighting off the Jews’ he was doing the ‘Lords work’. He based this belief in part from the influence of Dr. Lueger and the Christian Socialist Party. There appears to be a crossroad in his life where he struggled with the morals of his early Catholic upbringing and the enticement of a ‘greater calling’; “I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.” Mien Kamph Vol. 1 Chp. 2.

Unfortunately, Hitler ignored the teaching of Christ and concocted his own potpourri of social philosophy and his own understanding of Christianity and Catholicism that mimicked Gods Word but lacked Gods authority. His words revealed he did not believe the basis of Orthodox Christianity is that Christ is the Son of God and Savior of mankind but merely a ‘founder’ of a religion: "And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God." Mien Kamph Volume 1, p. 174.

Hitler clearly made his own religion which had very little resemblance to Orthodox Christianity.

To point #2: Violence and hostility will occur within society by religious people.

That is correct. It is the nature of man to lie, cheat and steal. This condition results in violence and hostility regardless if one is religious or not. That is why Orthodox Christianity requires believers, “… to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.” Titus 3: 1-2. AND, “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all men.” Romans 12: 9-18. AND, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. “ Romans 12:21.

To point #3: The world would be a better place if leaders and people were not religious. See answer to point #2.

GH

[willy1der]

thanks for sharing GH! can't argue with God's word. I needed to be reminded of scripture other than Rom. 13. it is easy to pervert God's word when we have our own interpretation but as we gain knowledge and apply it to our lives the word is alive in us and produces fruit, the right kind of fruit. In other words we rightly divide the word. If it can be rightly divided I assume it can be wrongly divided. It also convicted me of some of my thoughts and words spoken of those in authority, great study of God's word. thank you!

[George Hayduke]

thanks for sharing GH! can't argue with God's word. I needed to be reminded of scripture other than Rom. 13. it is easy to pervert God's word when we have our own interpretation but as we gain knowledge and apply it to our lives the word is alive in us and produces fruit, the right kind of fruit. In other words we rightly divide the word. If it can be rightly divided I assume it can be wrongly divided. It also convicted me of some of my thoughts and words spoken of those in authority, great study of God's word. thank you!

Your welcome, I'm glad it 'bore fruit'.

GH

[Usaok]

Without religion there would be no control between right and wrong . Without hope there is no future . Religion has always thru good and bad times given people hope . Let's look at Obama for instance . His religion says if you blow yourself up , you will have ya self chicken and 90 some odd virgins , free of course on Allah .not my cup of mushroom tea but . Has anyone ever asked weather those virgins are men or woman . Hell of a surprise that would be . All truths aside , I have always turned to my faith when in need of wisdom and direction . I have two guardian angels whom I talk with daily . Yes at first I was skeptical , but before my dear grandmother passed away her and I made a decision , no matter who passed first we would stay in touch . Thru conviction and persistence we connected . I know , the nay Sayers , but it works for me . I see her beautiful face , I see her expressions and yes I feel so fortunate to have this connection . No lottery numbers , I won't say I don't try to get them out of her , but yes she gives me so much more . Try it , see that loved ones face , tell them you wish to communicate , do it continuously , and I bet you will be amazed . Without faith I would never be able to have this wonderful privilege and daily experience . By no means a holy roller here but , IT WORKS ....

[glo]

I for one agree Scrum. The church has historicaly always sided with the elite. Their interest was and continues to be their self preservation and wealth at the expence of the empoverished masses. nothing new here...History books a full of it, if you know how to descern the truth from the BS.

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to see that by my own words, I do not respect man's role in any church or religion. I agree that the church has used it's influence over the masses to control them...while they promise eternal salvation if you comply and eternal damnation if you do not. People are after all easily controled with intangable conceps. I call them lies.

truthfully, I don't believe that originaly, when cristianity was in it's infancy, that there was a grand conspiracy to control the mases, this only happend when religions formalized and solidified their positions through a hirarchal system...and through man's intervention.

Man's intervention led to hundreds of years of the bloodiest wars witnessed by humanity..The Crusades,an absolutely pointless series of wars. Followed by unspeacable horrors in the Inquisition, again followed by many wars in Europe all in the name of Christ. The wars and tentions have continued to this day.

All justified by the saying.."It's God's will" When will people wake up and learn from history?

We get no true leadership to modern day social problems from the church....just dogma and rhetoric, all they want is your money!

Today the Catholic Church continues it's campaign of ignorance upon the poor masses, by forbiding contraception. Just when the world is fast running out of natural resouces, the church continues to promote an unrealistic agenda based on archaic beliefs that have no place in modern society. With friends like them, we do not need enemies!

Thanks Scrum! Carlos

well said !!!

[carlos in san diego]

Thanks Glo! There are many different views on the topic at hand. This has been a well educated and well behaved group. I have not felt anything that comes close to a negative rebute by anyone. Speaks volumes, and I'm glad to see that an issue that has caused so much pain iand suffering can be dealt with in a civil manner by all.

Thanks..carlos

[joekooltrips]

So far it's been interesting. Yahshu'a though taught that All submit only to his/our Father YHWH/Eli nobody else.

Edited February 14, 2012 by joekooltrips

[Markinsa]

So far it's been interesting. Yahshu'a though taught that All submit only to his/our Father YHWH/Eli nobody else.

Do you have the relevant verses available for us to read?

Thanks!

[TPSprayduster]

Without religion there would be no control between right and wrong . Without hope there is no future . Religion has always thru good and bad times given people hope . Let's look at Obama for instance . His religion says if you blow yourself up , you will have ya self chicken and 90 some odd virgins , free of course on Allah .not my cup of mushroom tea but . Has anyone ever asked weather those virgins are men or woman . Hell of a surprise that would be . All truths aside , I have always turned to my faith when in need of wisdom and direction . I have two guardian angels whom I talk with daily . Yes at first I was skeptical , but before my dear grandmother passed away her and I made a decision , no matter who passed first we would stay in touch . Thru conviction and persistence we connected . I know , the nay Sayers , but it works for me . I see her beautiful face , I see her expressions and yes I feel so fortunate to have this connection . No lottery numbers , I won't say I don't try to get them out of her , but yes she gives me so much more . Try it , see that loved ones face , tell them you wish to communicate , do it continuously , and I bet you will be amazed . Without faith I would never be able to have this wonderful privilege and daily experience . By no means a holy roller here but , IT WORKS ....

Let's look at Obama for instance . His religion says if you blow yourself up , you will have ya self chicken and 90 some odd virgins , free of course on Allah .not my cup of mushroom tea but . Has anyone ever asked weather those virgins are men or woman . Hell of a surprise that would be .

Sir can you provide us with some documented proof that the current sitting President is a Muslim? According to your post you are referring to Christians who blow themselves up as the president states his faith. I don't think the bible mentioned anything about that. So is it safe to say that your belief is that President Obama is a Muslim and again sir if that is so can you please provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt to verify your statement. Thank you.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/26/18-percent-american-public/obama-muslim-no-hes-not-evidence-has-not-changed/

Edited February 14, 2012 by TPSprayduster

[joekooltrips]

Religion and politics have always been intricately linked…

• ‘Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful’ ~ Seneca (5 BCE – 65 CE)
• ‘Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet’ ~ Napoleon (1769 – 1821)

Throughout history, monarchs, governments, and politicians of all stripes have used religion as a tool for controlling the masses. There is something about religion that makes it ideal as a tool of manipulation. Perhaps part of this ‘something’ lies in the religious texts themselves? Let’s see…

Christianity:

Christianity, for one, openly advocates for unquestioning obedience to those in authority.

Romans 13:1-2 says:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

But what happens if the person in who is the ‘governing authority’ is a brutal dictator, such as Adolf Hitler?

A Youtuber called ProfMTH has a wonderful video illustrating this conundrum:

So if Romans 13:1-2 is to be believed, it means all Christian believers must accept whatever rulers they get, no matter how cruel, ruthless, or corrupt they are… for they were put there by ‘God’, and to rebel against them is to rebel against what ‘God’ has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves.

Then of course there’s that whole thing about giving to Caesar…

Many monarchies in Europe during the Middle Ages sustained their power by claiming that they were divinely chosen to rule over the rest.

Islam:

The Qur’an instructs Muslims to obey those who have been ‘given authority’, in addition to ‘God’ and the ‘Apostle’. Qur’an 4:59 says:

‘O believers! Obey God and obey the Apostle and those who have been given authority [uulaa al-amr] among you’

Islam is viewed by the vast majority of its adherents to be a political system in and of itself, with its own system of justice. Iran

As executor of the will of ‘God’:

In a previous post I said of religion…

…the most widely practiced forms of it (i.e. Judaism, Christianity & Islam) claim to derive inspiration from a divine being whose prescriptions for life are believed to be absolute. Further, acting in service of this being by preserving, propagating, and enforcing its absolute prescriptions for life, is seen by most who subscribe to these religions as the greatest possible act of virtue. There is therefore very little room for debate in resolving differences in opinion on these ‘absolute’ prescriptions for life, and it is easy to see how hostility or violence ensues when these differing opinions cross paths.

By portraying himself/herself as a leader acting to enforce ‘God’s absoluteprescriptions for society, a leader (in a highly religious society) can usually expect to face minimal public resistance to otherwise questionable actions he or she may decide to undertake – and some cases, even receive overwhelming support for them.

Religion is an effective tool for control… one that fosters blind loyalty to authority – which is why throughout human history, it has tended to go hand in hand with politics.

Disclaimer: This article in no way reflects the belief of me, DV or any one in this forum. This is a article used for a debate.

The NEW American Theology of Civil Submission! NWO getting ready to really turn up the heat.

[joekooltrips]

Do you have the relevant verses available for us to read?

Thanks!

Matt. 23 whole chapter, pay attention when you get to verses 8-12. Peace.

Religion and politics have always been intricately linked…

• ‘Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful’ ~ Seneca (5 BCE – 65 CE)
• ‘Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet’ ~ Napoleon (1769 – 1821)

Throughout history, monarchs, governments, and politicians of all stripes have used religion as a tool for controlling the masses. There is something about religion that makes it ideal as a tool of manipulation. Perhaps part of this ‘something’ lies in the religious texts themselves? Let’s see…

Christianity:

Christianity, for one, openly advocates for unquestioning obedience to those in authority.

Romans 13:1-2 says:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

But what happens if the person in who is the ‘governing authority’ is a brutal dictator, such as Adolf Hitler?

A Youtuber called ProfMTH has a wonderful video illustrating this conundrum:

So if Romans 13:1-2 is to be believed, it means all Christian believers must accept whatever rulers they get, no matter how cruel, ruthless, or corrupt they are… for they were put there by ‘God’, and to rebel against them is to rebel against what ‘God’ has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves.

Then of course there’s that whole thing about giving to Caesar…

Many monarchies in Europe during the Middle Ages sustained their power by claiming that they were divinely chosen to rule over the rest.

Islam:

The Qur’an instructs Muslims to obey those who have been ‘given authority’, in addition to ‘God’ and the ‘Apostle’. Qur’an 4:59 says:

‘O believers! Obey God and obey the Apostle and those who have been given authority [uulaa al-amr] among you’

Islam is viewed by the vast majority of its adherents to be a political system in and of itself, with its own system of justice. Iran

As executor of the will of ‘God’:

In a previous post I said of religion…

…the most widely practiced forms of it (i.e. Judaism, Christianity & Islam) claim to derive inspiration from a divine being whose prescriptions for life are believed to be absolute. Further, acting in service of this being by preserving, propagating, and enforcing its absolute prescriptions for life, is seen by most who subscribe to these religions as the greatest possible act of virtue. There is therefore very little room for debate in resolving differences in opinion on these ‘absolute’ prescriptions for life, and it is easy to see how hostility or violence ensues when these differing opinions cross paths.

By portraying himself/herself as a leader acting to enforce ‘God’s absoluteprescriptions for society, a leader (in a highly religious society) can usually expect to face minimal public resistance to otherwise questionable actions he or she may decide to undertake – and some cases, even receive overwhelming support for them.

Religion is an effective tool for control… one that fosters blind loyalty to authority – which is why throughout human history, it has tended to go hand in hand with politics.

Disclaimer: This article in no way reflects the belief of me, DV or any one in this forum. This is a article used for a debate.

It's also interesting how you put '"IF" Romans 13 is to be believed . I don't agree with it though some on here might. Good debate so far and respect to all for keeping it clean.

Edited February 14, 2012 by joekooltrips

[Tiffany23]

Without religion there would be no control between right and wrong . Without hope there is no future . Religion has always thru good and bad times given people hope . Let's look at Obama for instance . His religion says if you blow yourself up , you will have ya self chicken and 90 some odd virgins , free of course on Allah .not my cup of mushroom tea but . Has anyone ever asked weather those virgins are men or woman . Hell of a surprise that would be . All truths aside , I have always turned to my faith when in need of wisdom and direction . I have two guardian angels whom I talk with daily . Yes at first I was skeptical , but before my dear grandmother passed away her and I made a decision , no matter who passed first we would stay in touch . Thru conviction and persistence we connected . I know , the nay Sayers , but it works for me . I see her beautiful face , I see her expressions and yes I feel so fortunate to have this connection . No lottery numbers , I won't say I don't try to get them out of her , but yes she gives me so much more . Try it , see that loved ones face , tell them you wish to communicate , do it continuously , and I bet you will be amazed . Without faith I would never be able to have this wonderful privilege and daily experience . By no means a holy roller here but , IT WORKS ....

Sir (at least I think you are male, if not, my forgiveness)...I can't agree more with your statement that religion provides hope. And hope is a very good thing indeed.

However, I would like to ask your indulgence on your first statement, that is: Without religion there would be no control between right and wrong.

This opinion is very prevalent in the West, but it is not that way in the East. Let me explain. For most Westerners, religion has these two main requirements: Existence of one (or more) Supreme Beings and the existence of a Heaven/Hell. Would you agree with that?

However in most of the East, they believe in what I could describe as "moral codes" or as it has been explain to me, "life paths". As many (most?) of these beliefs do not include either a Supreme Being or a Heaven/Hell (at least in Western terms).

Three examples are Buddhism, Confucianism and Shinto. The first two are more ethnical/philosophical systems based on teaching of wise (and in case of the Buddha, enlighten) men. While Buddhism does believe in reincarnation, ultimately the goal is to reach Nirvana,which is freedom of suffering, but as Westerners would comprehend as nothingness. Confucianism also has no God or Heaven/Hell. While Shinto is the worship of ancient ancestors. When I lived in Japan, they had a holiday in which all the family members would visit the tombs of their ancestors, and the eldest daughter was tasked with washing the bones of these relatives. What an eye opener to a different perspective! If interested you can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

In addition, my understanding, after having had a Jewish roommate in college, is that Judaism also does not believe in a Heaven.

Now, when we take the above beliefs and compare them to total National Crime Rates throughout the world, you can see that the US is ranked number 1 in the world as far as crime rates, followed by 4 other Western societies. While Japan is #6, Korea is #11

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

If you look at homicide rates, US is ranked at 4.8 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, while Japan is .83.

So, this proves you do not need a religion to control right and wrong, you only need moral codes that are reinforced by society.

Tiff

[Markinsa]

So far it's been interesting. Yahshu'a though taught that All submit only to his/our Father YHWH/Eli nobody else.

Do you have the relevant verses available for us to read?

Thanks!

Matt. 23 whole chapter, pay attention when you get to verses 8-12. Peace.

Matthew 23 is where Jesus criticizes the Religious Leaders. It doesn't say anything about "only submitting to God the Father", while I agree we should always submit to HIM, Jesus also instructions us to submit to those who have been put in authority over us, because God the Father, put them there in the first place. Your citation of scripture doesn't support your statement. Perhaps you chose the wrong Book, Chapter or verses?

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[tampabay6]

Religion and politics have always been intricately linked…

• ‘Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful’ ~ Seneca (5 BCE – 65 CE)
• ‘Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet’ ~ Napoleon (1769 – 1821)

Throughout history, monarchs, governments, and politicians of all stripes have used religion as a tool for controlling the masses. There is something about religion that makes it ideal as a tool of manipulation. Perhaps part of this ‘something’ lies in the religious texts themselves? Let’s see…

Christianity:

Christianity, for one, openly advocates for unquestioning obedience to those in authority.

There are a lot of well thought out (and lengthy) posts here, which I will not try to compete with at great length, especially at midnight on Valentine's day. I must be nuts to even be here right now... !

So, just a couple of points thrown in, to stir the pot.

1. I do not think of Christianity as a religion. It is a personal relationship, not an institution. It has much more in common with a marriage, than the great cathedrals in all of their glory that most people identify with a religious institution.

2. Tyrants can claim to be acting in the name of God, or in the name of some religion, that doesn't make them a representative of that religion.

No attempt to debate the proper usage of Romans 13 as it addresses the relationship of a Christian to a civil government could be complete without mentioning Pastor Chuck Baldwin, who has just recently co-authored a book about this very subject with his son, who is an attorney:

*** Here is an article from 2008: "RON PAUL ENDORSES CONSTITUTION PARTY CANDIDATE CHUCK BALDWIN FOR PRESIDENT"

http://www.newswithv...breaking160.htm

*** Several articles Pastor Baldwin has written about this matter:

http://www.renewamer.../baldwin/110729

http://www.chuckbald...e_20090227.html

*** The website for his new book:

http://www.romans13truth.com/

Anyone who is (rightly) disgusted with the tyrannical actions of the private foreign corporation that calls itself the United States Government, and who thinks less of Christianity because they are being told that it preaches unlimited submission to ungodly tyrants, should study Pastor Baldwin's insights before making up their mind.

... and I must not forget, my other favorite source for information about how Christians should deal with civil government, founded by one of the finest Hebrew scholars I have had an opportunity to learn from ...

http://www.teamlaw.net