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Found 1 result

  1. Well, now that the dust is settled let’s move on to a less vitriolic conversation. There’s no need for anybody to get upset and, no reason for this thread to be closed. I think it’s pretty obvious as to who is a Christian and who is a Jehovah Witness here. There are strong beliefs held on both sides; some are correct and others are not. What I know to be absolutely right and correct is that two positives don’t make a negative and two negatives’ don’t make a positive. In other words, two opposing views cannot both be correct in the same sense at the same time. One view will be correct but wishing and hoping it to be correct without understanding why it is and should be correct, leads to inflammatory and passionate pejoratives such as ‘Mocker’ and ‘Blasphemer.’ There’s no need for that language, who are we trying to convince, ourselves? God already knows who is who and what lies in their heart of hearts, soul of souls, mind of mind, flesh of flesh…oops, sorry, got carried away for a moment. Personally, I don’t believe the JW’s interpretation of the message of the Bible is correct in so many areas. That is why Botz, I’ve addressed most of my response to you. One thing that we can both agree upon is that our understanding of what a ‘soul’ is, is completely different one from another. No sense beating that horse any further . Another area where we hold different views is how we interpret scripture. In one instance with regard to St. John seeing and hearing martyred souls crying out for God’s Judgement for their murder here on earth, you claim it is symbolic. Yet, when Christ opens the 7th Seal, St. John states, “And I heard the number of those who were sealed; One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.” In both instances St. John is in the same place observing a Holy Seal being opened and he hears a testimony as to who the 144,000 are. Can you explain why one event is different from the other? They could both be symbolic and they could both be literal but, they can’t be either/or. I believe they are literal events. Here is something else you might want to discipline yourself on; interjection. What I mean by that is, St. John said he heard the souls crying out and you retorted that what St. John saw was symbolic but you added the word ‘Screaming’ in place of crying out. St. John never said the souls were ‘screaming’. Here is another important example of the differences between Christianity and JW’s with regard to the Trinity. Christians as you know believe God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God; Jehovah You claim Jesus was created, a mere creature with supernatural powers. " He actually has convinced people that God´s son IS God...oh and that the holy spirit is God....Oh but they are not 3 but um, one. Which makes no sense no matter how you slice it." Let me give it a try: The basic doctrine of the Trinity is one nature and three persons. You may think Christians cheat at math by saying 1+1+1=1 when it is obvious it should be 3. That however, is not the foundation of the Trinity. One to the third power is more accurate 1X1X1=1. Still, I admit the Trinity is a mystery but can it be understood sufficiently. One thing the Doctrine of the Trinity is not, is Tritheism; the belief that are three gods in the godhead. The basic doctrine of the Trinity is best understood as one nature and three persons; God is tri-personal, infinite, indivisible, immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and absolutely perfect and just. God is three persons in one nature. There is only one essence; “What” in God, but there are three persons; “Whos” in that one “What”. It is also known as a “Tri-unity”. Another way to look at it is as a triangle. There are three sides co-equal in dimension but distinct one from another; side ‘A’ cannot be Side ‘B’ and side ‘B’ cannot be side ‘C’ and side ‘C’ cannot be side ‘A’. Neither is one subordinate to the other but in totality reveal the ‘essence’ of a triangle. I can hear your Botz gears grinding even now as I type, so let’s go straight to the main argument that JW’s stand on with regard to Christ’s deity; Christ cannot be the second person of the Trinity because He is not equal in essence with the Father because He was created by the Father. If that were true the Doctrine of the Trinity would be absurd. But… Christ was not created but has co-existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit for all eternity as the Triune God. St. Paul states, “He created all things”(Colossians 1:16) and “has the fullness of the Godhead” (Colossians 2:9) and, “He is before all things.” (Colossians 1:17). You might want to consider Revelation 21:6-7, where Christ states “He said to me; ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.’” Clearly, Christ is saying He is the beginner and ender of all creation not that He was created at the beginning of the creation of all things. Another fair question is how can the Father be greater than the Son if Jesus is equal to God? The Father was greater than Jesus as a man but not greater than Christ as God because he too was God. Jesus was equal in essence but lower in nature. · JESUS AS GOD: o Unlimited in knowledge o No growth in knowledge o Knew time of His coming · JESUS AS MAN: o Limited in knowledge o Growth in knowledge o Did not know time of His coming The existence of the Holy Spirit is also where Christianity and JW’s disagree. JW’s believe the spirit of Jehovah is His Holy Spirit whereas Christians believe the Holy Spirit is a person and is equal in the Triune Godhead essence. His deity is evidenced by His possessing the names of God; having the attributes of God; performing the acts of God; and His association with God in benedictions and baptismal formulas. We can go and on and on but the reality is Christians believe two thousand years of orthodoxy whereas JW’s believe a new revelation occurred in 1799 when C.T. Russell proclaimed mankind was living in the last days and that Christ was going to return in 1874. The Watchtower Society grew from that moment never ceasing to adjust dates and prophecy to match their theology. That’s a lot of editing to have accomplished in 200 some years but I’m confident in their ability to keep pace with the changing times. Am I passionate about converting JW’s…? Not in the least, I believe a man will believe what he wants to believe regardless of anything I have to say. So Botz, since you never answered my question, “What is the purpose of the atonement?” I’ll assume it will be contrary to the Orthodox understanding and leave it at that. In the meantime know that if I erred in presenting a JW belief or position it was unintentional. GH
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