Tiffany23

Now Lomely...you know I have no problem with people owning guns...and it may totally confuse some of you but I actually own two myself, a 357 and a shot gun...both that I inherited from my Grandfather...who was an Gunny in the Marines during WWII and a professional cowboy...and yes, he did teach me how to shoot. And no, I'm not very good with either as they both have a bit too much kick for me. Last night I went to my pub down the street and meant up with my gang...made up of Irish, Brits, Kiwis, South Americans and even Dutch. I told them about this debate I was having and they got quiet a kick out of it. They of course ribbed me about Americans being naturally violent and war mongers....but they all found the American stance on guns to be very foreign. Really....the way most of you feel about the right to bear arms is unlike how anyone else in the Western World does. The ploy that some of you take saying that I should be wary and that I may have to use one, one day is again very foreign to the rest of the Western World. Of the 5 nationalities that I was sitting with, not one had ever been in a situation that a firearm was needed, nor did they ever know of anyone in any of those countries that needed one. Like wise, I've lived in 7 countries myself: US, Canada, Turkey, New Zealand, Germany, Japan and the UK....not once did I feel the need to have a gun for protection, nor have I ever ran into anyone that did. And to be totally honest, I felt the most threaten when I lived in the US...just knowing that someone else may be "packing" is a scary thought. It all boils down to the fact that you have a constitutional right to bear arms and no one is going to take that away from you. That right is more important to you, than what the end results that it has on other parts of the US, places that you don't identify with. In addition, while, there are alternatives for home protection (including a dog), that doesn't appeal to you. Again, I thank you fine Gents for not giving me negatives for bringing up a different point of view, as I do love a good debate among friends...and as they say, Happy Hunting! Tiff:)

Nostradamus...your turn, please lay on the couch, get comfy and let me tell you about yourself First of all, you are different from most of the rest of the DV gang that I normally deal with. You don't come here to socialize, discuss local events or make friends. Sure you may comment every so often on an issue, but for the most part you come here to see how the potential investment is doing. Which is a shame...because you probably have the highest IQ on the site (other than mine of course! ha ha) and you are highly connected. But no one seems to notice because you don't make a big deal about either. You are modest to a fault. As stated, you are highly intelligent and my guess is some type of professional, and most likely a supervisor over many people. You write very well...concise and to the point, as if you are use to making presentations to clients and higher ups. What you write is rational, logical and with little emotional fanfare. You are both politically knowledgeable and know how to be politically correct. Not that you need to be, because you don't feel the need to bring people down. You remind me of the guy in the Ferrari that one pulls up to at a red light. That is, you KNOW you could punch the gas petal and blow me away, but you don't...just knowing that you could is satisfying enough. You are use to telling it like it is and you are cool under pressure. When a problem presents itself, you begin breaking it down immediately and start implementation of a correction plan almost instantaneously. There isn't much in your career field that you haven't seen before and I'm sure when people get in a pickle they seek your advise. You like to mentor people as you see it as both rational and the right thing to do. Many of the topics on this site probably make you and you think...yea, ah OK...don't these people have something better to do? You are well spoken, but when it suits your mood, you can be a smart a s s. I'd hate to get in an intellectual debate with you, as you no doubt would blow me out of the water. I believe you have done a lot of travel, as you appear to be very worldly. And as stated, you are well connected. You are a skeptic...if it is too good to be true...then most likely it is. You are loyal to those you love...but temptation has reared it's head many times. Obviously, you love your dog very much...unconditional love is AWESOME isn't it? With animals it's easy, yet you find it a bit harder to be as affectionate with humans, but you work on it. Physically....that's tough...tall, comb back black hair like Gecko in Wall Street, use to wearing suits So....do I charge you or did I flop?

Now that one was AWESOME! Not that I can relate to it or whatever.....

I'm sorry, I don't understand this question, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so pls explain. "If people are raised with better values and taught to respect elders, money, possesions etc., we wouldnt have the problems we do." Again, I totally agree. No argument. But let's boil this down. People say guns don't kill people. Ok then why do England, Germany, & Japan all have significantly lower homicide rates than the US? But they aren't like us....ok, then why does Canada, which IS similar to the US have such a vastly lower domestic violence? You can argue all you want that gun control doesn't work, but it does. Less people die. (By the way, I've lived in all 4 countries, so yea, I have personal experience) The argument then is well, it deters crime. Just knowing or possibly knowing that someone may have a gun will stop someone from coming in. Ok, fine. You win that point. But having that right also allows ANYONE to have a gun, which studies show will result in more violence against women and children. You can't argue that. Are there alternatives? Yes...you can have pepper spray or tazers for home defense. You can also have your firearms whenever you wish to go hunting or shooting....just like Canada. Just leave them at the armory at the end of the day. As far as foreign invasion, Ok...I will give you that one as well, that is in the time of WWII. But honestly, which country would try that today against the US...seriously. Next, do you honestly think our military would turn on its people? If so, then we have a lot more to worry about than gun control. Last but not least, I KNOW I can't win this argument. There is not a single person that I've convinced. You are welcome to your guns. But I think you are:

I can't argue with anything you said. But maybe I can approach my view in a different manner. Do you remember in the story about Wyatt Earp, when he was trying to tame Tombstone...what did he have to resort to? He had everyone hang up their guns when they entered town. When they left town and needed it to kill snakes or outlaws they could have them back. Why did it work back then but is so difficult to understand why it wouldn't work now?

Sorry babe, I had to search in the Party section for your lost soul...but I found it, having a great girls' night out...because that is something you love to do. Ok, here is what my reading says about our lovely Lady Dah-kota: You...WERE a hippy chick of the 60s! I always wanted to actually talk to someone like you...because I see girls my age (or younger) with tattoos all over their body and EMOs that I kind of wonder what it will be like for them when they hit middle age. So now I know! You are patriotic, friendly and very observant. You are well thought of by your friends, I doubt you've ever had an enemy in your life because you are so go lucky. You are a flirt, but not in a naughty way...ah most of the time...but in a friendly way that puts people at ease. You are very affectionate...bet you have or had an AWESOME sex life...probably even did a few things that would make me blush! . You can have a streak of naughtiness when it fits your mood...then watch out! I also see that you are a bit restless, and a bit of a worrier. You care about those who come both before and after you. For some reason, I get the impression you are a bit lonely...maybe you have such a big heart that you would like to have more access to socialize with others? You have the ability to laugh at yourself and can be silly...I imagine children love to be around you....and not sure, but maybe a big animal lover? People find you enjoyable to be around as you don't talk a lot about yourself, so you are engaging to those who you meet. You certainly aren't a "bump" on the log..and love to socialize and be around people. You don't seem to get nervous very easy and are comfortable in your own skin. Very bubbly personality. I don't see you as overly religious, but certainly believe in God. Physically, straight hair, blond with touches of grey...maybe glasses? Big cheeks that are rosy from smiling all the time. Ok, so who'd I do?

Your a Nut! But you are OUR Nut! ha ha

Many of you were kind enough to let me know you appreciate my point of view...and likewise. Isn't it amazing what we can learn from each other if we are open minded and wiling to look at other's point of view? Which got me to thinking. I believe the majority of you are white males, probably +40 years of age, and grew up in the country or small towns, many in the south. A lot of you have served in our military. Thus, when I think of your upbringing, I can certainly understand your point of view. May I ask that you take a few moments to think of how other Americans live? Think of the millions of minorities, living in large cities, ghettos, where crime is an every day event. I had a friend that lived in south Chicago and she said that it was slow week when she didn't hear at least 5 gun shots. So put yourself in the shoes of a young black girl that has two children living in south Detroit. Your unemployed partner, who is not the father of your kids, comes home night after night drunk or high, spending the rent/food allowance on drugs. And he owns a gun. You have no one that will put you up and he is starting to get abusive towards both you and your kids. Now what? This is reality for millions of young mothers. It's easy to make a decision based on what you have personally encountered, but think of those who live on the other side of the tracks. I realize he could attack with a knife or club, but again, one has a lot better chance of outrunning a knife vs a bullet.

Before I moved to New Zealand, I admit, I had never watched a full game of rugby...but now I am TOTALLY hooked...if you like American Football, you will LOVE Rugby. In order to help you out, I've located this instructional video on the rules of Rugby....that is sure to keep you interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed50KL4UhHs

Delta...babe...trust me, you will live WAY past 100...as Heaven don't want to listen to your jokes and Hell is afraid you will take over (like you have here in DV!) You ROCK Sugar!

My only question about what you wrote, my friend, is why you would think this would be in any way offensive to non-believers? It is a personal testimony of your faith and is both well written and sincere. I personally find it very touching and morally uplifting. You are a shining example of being a soldier of Christ. Well said!

Dudes/Duddetts, You have brought up some good arguments based on personal experiences and your own stats. Many of you are my friends or atleast on friendly terms with me, so I don't want to push my luck. Now, I will go to the carpet on some topics like minority rights...but the 2nd Amendment is definitely not one of those subjects. I have about as much chance of convince you to change the 2nd Amendment as you do of having me want to change the1st Amendment. So if you will pardon me, I will wander off to another subject and let you good people enjoy discussing this issue in peace and quiet!

bill...strangely enough, your line of reasoning is logical, what you are saying is that society has determine that we are willing to live with the impacts of having this right. And just for the record, the most dangerous thing that most of us will ever do, is ride in an auto. Touche'

Ok, perhaps I put a bit too much shine on the apple. Dually noted! Sorry Buddy! But again, we aren't debating apples and apples. You guys say that guns detour crime. Noted. But it also kills ALOT of innocent people via domestic violence...manly women and children. So what is the alternatives?

Too funny!

Sorry, have to add one thing. I'm not saying that having a gun doesn't detour criminals, that is so obvious that it is non debatable. What I am looking at, is the risk of allowing a society access to weapons unchecked. My stats prove that women and children die at a far greater rate in the US than in other western countries. Canada which has a very similar culture to the US, has 1/3 the murder rate that the US does. So, what do we do as a responsible society? Why can't people own pepper spray, or tazers at home...and keep their firearms in an armory...to take out for hunting/target practice etc. Then everyone wins, right? This Hitler quote is mystifying for me. Are you guys alluding to the fact that our military may turn against us? Or that some foreign invader will come to our shores? Either one is so ludicrous that I don't see why it would even be mentioned. Just saying

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate Sorry misspoke, an American is 3 times more likely to die of homicide than Canadians, 4 times as the Irish, and 6 times as likely than Germany or Japan. A person has a decent chance of out running a knife, but when when a male comes home drunk and wants to take it out on the wife and kids, most of them can't out run a bullet. Dinarmillion you are posting what guns MAY prevent, which is subjective...key word is may...I'm showing how many actually DIE. Which is factual.

Hopeful...no argument there...these stats are old, but in prior debates on this subject I did my research and it showed the same results....just too lazy to look them up now Des....can you pls provide something to back this up? My research shows that Americans are 5 times more likely to die from a gun than Canadians. So I'd like to see where you are getting your info. And pls believe me, I'm not doubting you...I think you are an AWESOME guy! AoK...too funny Again, appreciate that you are all being polite on this subject, I think in the past, this has been the number 2 source of negatives for me!

Desimo, You posting reminds me of this: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato Point being that these things seem to go as pendulums. The roaring 1920s were over taken by the Prohibition 1930's. The Dark Ages by the Enlightenment Area. I also think you are grouping a lot of things together that have no correlation to each other, if I may, I'd like to take a stab at each for an explanation, so that it doesn't seem to be as bad as you may think. Assumption: Increased persecution for people who believe in Christianity as seen by increased PC pressure not to 'offend' other religions. Therefore many things dealing with Christianity is being removed by the courts such as crosses that have been military memorial crosses for many years, Gideons restricted from schools that allows Islam openly, only to give two examples Explanation: The US is generally a Christian population now and even more so in the past. However, as we continue to be more of a melting pot, the majority will continue to lose their power. It is only natural that those who once held all the cards are upset, look at the Brits and how they once had an empire on which the sun never set. But this isn't necessarily bad, it allows those who were once minorities an equal share of power that the Constitution allows. What you want to do with other consenting adults in private is up to you, but pushing your beliefs on others is no longer allowed. And yes, having your religion symbols on court house and money is pushing your beliefs....if you don't believe that, how would you like the words "In Allah we Trust" on your money? A: American flag and other forms of patriotism removed due to being offensive to Islam. E: I'm not familiar with this one, can you please provide more info? A: Increased regualtions and political thirst for public firearms. E: If you look at my recent post, I brought up the fact that having a firearm at home is substantially increasing the possibility of domestic violence on women and children. That is why something has to be done. If you wish to debate this point, I would ask that you go to that posting so we can stay on topic. A: Increased government invovlement in business and personal life due to increased regualations. E: I think you can thank the likes of 9/11 and Bernard Madoff. In order to protect the American public from foreign and domestic attacks, the Gov't instigated such legislation like the Patriot Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act), which I actually see as a tradeoff...more security vs less privacy. And of course Madoff made off with billions because there wasn't sufficient eyes (regulations and check/balances) watching the hen house. A: Increased government invovlement in personal life even to the level of what kinds of light bulbs is permissible or acceptable through regulation. E: If we didn't have Uncle Sam involved here, we would go back to the days when people simply dumped their trash out the window, remember this ad? A: EPA increased invovlment controlling business from 'dirt' regulations effecting farmers to the new regulations against 'big rigs'. E: Sorry, not familiar with this one A: Increased executive orders without Congress approval and presidental appointments. E: This one, I TOTALLY agree with. The founding father's put in a check and balance for each branch of our gov't...the Prez should be held accountable. A: Order of law such as police law enforcement being forced to accept political PC as was seen throughout the nation in handling the Occupy groups. Laws were broken in mass yet the police were not permitted to enforce the law even after deadlines were given. E: Not familiar with this one either A: Government has the power to shut down all communications in case of a 'national emergency'. E: Again, I don't really see the problem with this. I guess we would have to debate what "national emergency" would be. A: TSA being able to violate personal space and rights in the name of 'safe traveling'. E: I don't like this one any more than anyone else....but the results are, to date, not one American has been harmed since 9/11...that is TRUELY impressive. Again, I'm willing to give up some of my privacy for being safe. If you aren't, then why not take a car? A: Government has been given order in the AG not to bother with offenses which are made towards as particular group (whites) and to only bother with offenses which have been doen against minorities. E: Again, I'd need specifics. A: Government having the power to do things such as Fast and Furious. E: From someone that has been around the Gov't my whole life, this is certainly nothing new. Gov't property going missing is as old as the hills. A: Government openly lying to the American people without reprucussions. E: Let me answer this with a rhetorical question, when HAVEN'T politicians lied? And when DID we hold them accountable? A: Particular party being able to walkout of sessions without reprocussions as seen in Wisconsin. E: If you don't believe in something, instead of getting violent, what is the alternative? A: I am seen a 'party' taking over control of America. I am seeing personal rights being stripped. My concern is that those of us who grew up in the 50's and 60's might be seeing an alarming change in politics. Are we becoming the old USSR? E: No, we are coming to a period of change across the globe. Here is what Thomas Jefferson (the smartest man who ever held the office of President) said: I like a little rebellion now and then. Periodic revolution, “at least once every 20 years,” was “a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.” You have highlighted a list of your concerns, and I can certainly understand why you are upset but when you look at each one independently, I hope you agree that some are actually good (like minorities getting equal rights), some are old concerns (gov't lies, gov't losing property) and some are just day to day happenings... America will survive this time period and no doubt continue to be the world leader for decades to come. I hope this is of some comfort. I did not mean to make light of any of your concerns or foo foo them again, but my intent is merely to make you feel better that the sky is not falling. Tiff

I have no problem with people owning a firearm...but keeping it at home means it is the "weapon of choice" for domestic violence (mostly against women and children), let's look at the facts: There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6] In 2000, in homicides where the weapon was known, 50 percent (1,342 of 2,701) of female homicide victims were killed with a firearm. Of those female firearm homicides, 1,009 women (75 percent) were killed with a handgun. More than five times as many women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance (605) than by a stranger (113) in the year 2000. Additionally, while firearm homicides involving male victims were mostly intra-gender, 95 percent of female firearm homicide victims were murdered by a male. Domestic violence against women is a disturbingly common occurrence in the United States. Estimates from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) indicate that from 1993 to 1998, women were victims of violent crimes by their intimate partners an average of more than 935,000 times a year. During this period, intimate-partner violence comprised 22 percent of all violent crimes against women. Although firearms are used in a relatively small percentage of domestic violence incidents, when a firearm is present, domestic violence can and all too often does turn into domestic homicide. Congress, recognizing the unique and deadly role firearms play in domestic violence passed the Protective Order Gun Ban in 1994. The law prohibits gun possession by a person against whom there is a restraining or protective order for domestic violence. In 1996, Congress passed the Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Gun Ban, which prohibits anyone convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence or child abuse from purchasing or possessing a gun. A 1997 study that examined the risk factors for violent death for women in the home found that when there were one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times. The increased risk of homicide associated with firearms was attributable to homicides at the hands of a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. An analysis of female domestic homicides (a woman murdered by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative) showed that prior domestic violence in the household made a woman 14.6 times more likely, and having one or more guns in the home made a woman 7.2 times more likely, to be the victim of such a homicide. The circumstances of firearms violence differ significantly between men and women. Compared to a man, a woman is far more likely to be killed by her spouse, an intimate acquaintance, or a family member than murdered by a stranger or an unidentified intruder. A 1976 to 1987 analysis of Federal Bureau of Investigation data revealed that more than twice as many women were shot and killed by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than were murdered by strangers using firearms, knives, or any other means. Between 1976 and 1996, 65 percent of the male and female victims of intimate partner homicides were killed with a firearm. And while rates of intimate partner homicide have been declining, the ratio of female-to-male victims has risen. In other words, when an intimate-partner homicide occurs, it is increasingly likely that a woman is the victim rather than a man. Having a gun in the home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner. A firearm in the home may be a key factor in the escalation of nonfatal spousal abuse to homicide. In a study of family and intimate assaults for the city of Atlanta, Georgia, in 1984, firearm-associated family and intimate assaults were 12 times more likely to result in death than non-firearm associated assaults between family and intimates. The effects of firearm-related domestic violence last long beyond the actual crime. In a study on child witnesses of marital violence, the authors noted that children who observed incidents of domestic violence involving the use or threat of a firearm exhibited higher levels of behavior problems than children who did not. While YOU personally don't think that you or anyone in your family won't commit such atrocities, your RIGHT to bear arms is essentially allowing this violence to go unchecked and take place...so please explain how you can have your cake and eat it to? Please don't give me negatives, I'm merely pointing out what your rights are allowing others to do. So help me solve this issue, that is all that I'm asking. http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm

Wow....won't you like to be the little fly on the wall at the Iranian Gov't HQ...trying to figure out how to spin this so that it's Uncle Sam's fault. Nice post Tank!

Smee babe, you would always be welcome to join us..after all, you are an Honorary American... . I don't like Hilary...and the reason is, it seems to me that Bill and her used each other to made advances in their careers vs any actual feelings of love for each other. I"m a hopeless romantic and to have such a "clinical" marriage is to me immoral.

It's called T i T 4 T a T. Iran just had their little show of force/war games, so now it's our turn. In ancient warfare each side used to show each other their "privates" to prove their manhood before engaging in battle...my how far we've come! Over here in NZ, our WORLD CHAMPION ALL BLACKS do something similar...but leave it to the Scots to do one better!

Awesome! Gives me goose bumps...nice beat.

Ok Gang...here's the deal...these are the ONLY candidates for Prez....which one would you vote for and why? You HAVE to Vote and these are the only choices! Who's your Daddy!