52 replies to this topic

[14Mil]

Many of you have noted that there has been a spike in Religious postings the last several days. I rarely post and have never submitted a Topic Post before, but I thought perhaps a Challenge was in order. That is, I've seen where many of you are explaining WHY you believe in what you do. But, if you are human, then you must also have some doubts.

What I'd like to know is what those doubts are? Have you ever heard of the Devil's Advocate? Here is a brief write up of what it is:

During the canonization process of the Roman Catholic Church, the Promoter of the Faith (Latin: promotor fidei), popularly known as the Devil's advocate (Latin: advocatus diaboli), was a canon lawyer appointed by Church authorities to argue against the canonization of the candidate.[1] It was their job to take a skeptical view of the candidate's character, to look for holes in the evidence, to argue that any miracles attributed to the candidate were fraudulent, etc. The Devil's advocate opposed God's advocate (Latin: advocatus Dei; also known as the Promoter of the Cause), whose task is to make the argument in favor of canonization. This task is now performed by the Promoter of Justice (promotor iustitiae), who is in charge of examining how accurate is the inquiry on the saintliness of the candidate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

The purpose is to adequately address one's doubts, so that a defense can be constructed to fully address those concerns. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what others actually think/doubt?

This will take a lot of courage from anyone who wants to participate, because you will have to address to others what you don't "get" about your own belief. Also, I'd ask that people refrain from providing an answer/response. I'd honestly like to see what believers and non-believers have to say. Be honest!

With that said, I'll be willing to go first. I'm an Agnostic/skeptic. I'm a firm believer in Evolution. But I'm holding on to the possibility of there being some Supreme Being..because of the fact that so MANY things had to happen just right in order for me to exist. For example, a universe that had just the right physics laws...i.e. gravity. That our planet just happens to be in the "goldilocks zone" where water can both freeze sometimes and not freeze other times. Water is so vital to our way of life. That we have one moon, that had it not been the case, life as we know it may not exist.

Bottomline, because I exist, I know so many things just had to happen to make it so. That worries me and makes me wonder. Was it all planned?

You?

Smee, Dean H, Bamagirl, ems, JF, Mitch10, Francis (and Tiffany if you are reading this, and yes this is a ploy for you to re-engage, since this is part of your doing).

I'm looking to the likes of you to take me up on this challenge. All are welcome!!

[Dean_H]

Many of you have noted that there has been a spike in Religious postings the last several days. I rarely post and have never submitted a Topic Post before, but I thought perhaps a Challenge was in order. That is, I've seen where many of you are explaining WHY you believe in what you do. But, if you are human, then you must also have some doubts.

What I'd like to know is what those doubts are? Have you ever heard of the Devil's Advocate? Here is a brief write up of what it is:

During the canonization process of the Roman Catholic Church, the Promoter of the Faith (Latin: promotor fidei), popularly known as the Devil's advocate (Latin: advocatus diaboli), was a canon lawyer appointed by Church authorities to argue against the canonization of the candidate.[1] It was their job to take a skeptical view of the candidate's character, to look for holes in the evidence, to argue that any miracles attributed to the candidate were fraudulent, etc. The Devil's advocate opposed God's advocate (Latin: advocatus Dei; also known as the Promoter of the Cause), whose task is to make the argument in favor of canonization. This task is now performed by the Promoter of Justice (promotor iustitiae), who is in charge of examining how accurate is the inquiry on the saintliness of the candidate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

The purpose is to adequately address one's doubts, so that a defense can be constructed to fully address those concerns. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what others actually think/doubt?

This will take a lot of courage from anyone who wants to participate, because you will have to address to others what you don't "get" about your own belief. Also, I'd ask that people refrain from providing an answer/response. I'd honestly like to see what believers and non-believers have to say. Be honest!

With that said, I'll be willing to go first. I'm an Agnostic/skeptic. I'm a firm believer in Evolution. But I'm holding on to the possibility of there being some Supreme Being..because of the fact that so MANY things had to happen just right in order for me to exist. For example, a universe that had just the right physics laws...i.e. gravity. That our planet just happens to be in the "goldilocks zone" where water can both freeze sometimes and not freeze other times. Water is so vital to our way of life. That we have one moon, that had it not been the case, life as we know it may not exist.

Bottomline, because I exist, I know so many things just had to happen to make it so. That worries me and makes me wonder. Was it all planned?

You?

Smee, Dean H, Bamagirl, ems, JF, Mitch10, Francis (and Tiffany if you are reading this, and yes this is a ploy for you to re-engage, since this is part of your doing).

I'm looking to the likes of you to take me up on this challenge. All are welcome!!

Yes, there are long odds against things being just perfect for life to emerge, let alone evolve into intelligence. Let's look at the number of chances we had. There are billions of stars in our galaxy alone. There are billions of galaxies. That gives an incredible number of stars and chances for life to begin even if chance alone is the prime mover. The universe is currently believed by the vast majority of physicists to be over 11 billion years old. That's a lot of time for circumstances to keep occurring and things to keep happening. Chance? No one knows for sure. Design? It's tempting to say yes, that someone had to be in charge, but there's no hard evidence of it. We may find that evidence one day but so far we haven't. Physicists keep working to look further and further back into time and figure out what set the universe on the path it is and there are some very wild theories that are coming out of these studies. My take is that if you find it right for you, then believe whatever you wish. I'm too pragmatic to believe in a supernatural force when there is plenty of mystery and awe in the universe we can sense, measure, and record to need to look beyond it.

[bamagirl]

This is actually a very good topic 14mil. I have always believed in the God of the bible but I have questioned whether Jesus was truly God's son. I have went through phases where I have lived for myself and not worried about consquences and I have also studied other religions. I studied with mormons before and almost joined there church. The biggest of all of them is when I have doubted the divinity of Jesus Christ and I am not even sure I even really doubted it or I was just really scared of the last book of the bible. The end of the world has always been a big fear of mine, not dying really just that there will be no more. Back to my doubts, I have had a hard time with the trinity concept but alas I found the answers in my heart that I needed. Prayer and open hearted bible study is what finally brought me to my conclusions. Now I must tell you Jesus IS Lord and I have a peace in my heart I pray for all of you to find.

This is actually a very good topic 14mil. I have always believed in the God of the bible but I have questioned whether Jesus was truly God's son. I have went through phases where I have lived for myself and not worried about consquences and I have also studied other religions. I studied with mormons before and almost joined there church. The biggest of all of them is when I have doubted the divinity of Jesus Christ and I am not even sure I even really doubted it or I was just really scared of the last book of the bible. The end of the world has always been a big fear of mine, not dying really just that there will be no more. Back to my doubts, I have had a hard time with the trinity concept but alas I found the answers in my heart that I needed. Prayer and open hearted bible study is what finally brought me to my conclusions. Now I must tell you Jesus IS Lord and I have a peace in my heart I pray for all of you to find.

[cooked]

Very provacotive. Good read, makes one think. Not sure why someone -neg you, but I evened you out. It's good to think sometimes.
thanks.


Here little pink piggy piggy

[ems]

Good post 14M! I never knew the origin of advocatus diaboli until now. I also gave you a +1 because your post is well worth addressing and you've worded it without being aggressive. Questions that will get people to really think about their beliefs serve well to reaffirm those that know what they believe and will cause those that are unsure of their beliefs to dig further. This will expose everyone to different points of view.

I would recommend you resurrect this thread in a few days or weeks since most of the discussion mirrors that found in the thread Tiffany started about atheists.

[FlyHi]

I graduated a science based student years ago and feel comfortable with things that are tangible andto me things are pretty black and white. As I've gotten older there has been more grey areas that I have come across and I've been forced to re-think what I believed to be true of a lot of things.
The area I struggled with is the concept that I am a tripartite being...that is I live in a body (physical being= 'shell'), I have a soul (my mind, will and emotions) and I am a spirit being (the eternal bit). The last two components are essential to faith and belie,f but are unseen and immeasurable. Unless the following is true....I have heard that when a person is on the death bed and dies they 'lose' a few ounces of weight (I presume they lie on a bed that is on accurate scales or weigh cells)...but I haven't found where this has been conducted. If true, this would allay some of the constraints of my mind and allow faith to be feasible or possible, as these later body states then are likely to be real and eternal....

[14Mil]

Interesting comments. Thank you to those who open their hearts up, so that I can take a gander inside. Nice to know I'm not the only one that wonders if I have it down right.

I'm a bit disappointed that more people didn't take me up on the challenge.

Got to thinking more about what I'm uncomfortable about. There is now, I think, 7 Billion of us humans walking the Earth today. I've read that Christians make up just over a Billion of them, followed by Muslims, then Unbelievers...again each over a Billion strong. Then you have the countries of India and China...both each a Billion strong...so you have a large mass of people believing in Hinduism and I believe Buddhaism in China, but certainly could be wrong, so don't quote me!

So think about it, you pick 7 random people out of the world population, you line them up and chances are all 7 believe something different. Sure maybe the Christians and Muslims faiths are from the same branch (that of Abraham), but one believes in the divinity of Christ and one does not. And Hinduism and Buddhism are VERY different and much older (at least Hindu is, while Buddhism is about 5 hundred years older than Christianity, again pulling this from grey matter that may be faulty).

And it's a known fact that the vast majority of people follow the religion of their parents and/or society. It is very rare that say, a Christian would change to being a Hindu here in America. Or a Buddhist to a Muslium in China. So that leads me to wonder, how do I know I have the right one? If I was born in India, don't you think I'd have the same level of convictions as say some of the Christians I've seen on this site? Honestly, if you were born in India, do you think you would really be a Christian today...that some how the "real" God would make himself known to you, while everyone else in your community was following a blue Goddess with 8 arms?

Just seems to me that Religion is more based on where one was born than what one discovers for oneself...that my friends, is what keeps me up at night. ha ha

[cooked]

Based on the number of views I think many people are scared to comment. No one wants to be labelled as a believer or worse yet an athiest(thats another thread).


Here little pink piggy piggy

[14Mil]

Based on the number of views I think many people are scared to comment. No one wants to be labelled as a believer or worse yet an athiest(thats another thread).


Here little pink piggy piggy

Wow...That is heavy...now why didn't I think of that! Duh...seems to be obvious. Thanks for pointing that out.

Guess that ranks up there with asking how much someone makes and how many sex partners they've had. Impolite to ask, and probably won't get the true answer anyway. ha ha

Guess that will stop me from posting stupid questions anymore!

[Tiffany23]

Sorry it took me so long to answer this, but I hunted down an episode from Star Trek that captures my thoughts:

[endeavor1]

I was born ignorant. As I got older questions came about. As I grew more I wondered the more of my existence. When I was 20 yrs. old, I found the answer, it was Jesus Christ and The King James Bible, never doubted since. Thank you Jesus!!!

[uncirculd]

They go to great lengths to try and get into the minds of happy God fearing Christians just to see if they may have some ammunition to disprove God. Beware of the "devil" who comes in sheep clothing. Because of my religion, I cannot even attempt to answer. Your trying to question and/or make me question my faith. "Faith", not for the agnostic. They cannot comprehend how our faith can be so strong without ever seeing. Blessed are those who believe and have never seen. This is flirting with the devil post for sure. I refuse. Sorry, still love ya.

[uncirculd]

[quote name='uncirculd' date='24 November 2011 - 06:55 AM' timestamp='1322139350' post='750771']
They go to great lengths to try and get into the minds of happy God fearing Christians just to see if they may have some ammunition to disprove God. Beware of the "devil" who comes in sheep clothing. Because of my religion, I cannot even attempt to answer. Your trying to question and/or make me question my faith. "Faith", not for the agnostic. They cannot comprehend how our faith can be so strong without ever seeing. Blessed are those who believe and have never seen. This is flirting with the devil post for sure. I refuse. Sorry, still love ya.


Ask this: How do you have a huge enormous explosion and have such articulately meticulously form of life and planet. I just don't see how science does not see this. Well they do, some anyways. Some are still trying to prove no God. Come up with some pretty quacky stuff in their desperations.

Edited by uncirculd, 24 November 2011 - 07:14 AM.

[Nelg]

Just happened onto this post for the first time. I am leaving in about 20 min. and still need to pack and will not be back until after the weekend. However, I did want to write something quickly and then come back to the post.

This is an excellent post. Individuals need to test their beliefs to see whether they will stand or fall. A person who does not question and search on their own has a borrowed faith and not their own faith. I challenge my students to question, I taught my daughter to question, and I started by journey of faith questioning every phase of belief. My doubts were found to be more of my own making because I borrowed them! I listen to professors who had no belief without testing the waters on my own. When I did I became a believer. There are elements of religion and religious dogma which I question and doubt, but not things of real faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things not seen. But religions have made a mess of true faith. They insert their own human bias into their teaching and make true belief in Scripture and Christ seem ludicrous.

Got to go for now. Faith is not opposed to reason and logic, but it the basis of both.

Great thread. Keep it going.

Nelg

[Tiffany23]

Looking forward to it Nelg.

I have no problem acknowledging that I don't have it all figured out..and I'm very skeptical of people that say they do. Now if they say they are comfortable with their beliefs...then I don't push them. I take it as kind of a copout...but that's because I marvel at the unknowns in life.

If Christians in America can't see 14Mil observation regarding how most people follow their parents or societies beliefs and Not think, gee that may just be me as well and be willing to explore that, then that's just being intellectually dishonest/lazy I think it was Mitch10 or ems that HAS traveled the world and decided Christianity is right for them...that I can DEEPLY appreciate. But not to look into the mirror and ask the hard questions, well that's just plain sad...but that's me.

John Stuart Mill says that
"It is better to be unhappy Socrates than a happy pig"

[tankdude]

It took me a while, but I found a site that fits in very well with my outlook.

http://www.godandsci...heismintro.html

As for myself - I was born into a Catholic family - fell away from the Church and actually explored Shamanism and Wicca. As the years went by, I found that something was still missing.

I found myself slowly moving back toward the Cristian view. Part of that because of my observations of the natural world...at least in my mind. I have found my way back to the Catholic curch - and yes, part of it is because it is comfortable for me - but mostly because I have come to deeply believe that Jesus is our Savior, and I do believe that the Catholic curch is a true Apostolic lineage.

Personally - I believe that whatever bring you closer to God - whatever your perception of Him - is a good thing. 21 major religions have a version of the Golden Rule -
http://www.religious.../reciproc2.htm. Can that truly be coincedence?

Just some thoughts and I hope you take the time to look at the first site I posted. It has some very good and valid scientific points in my opinion.

[Tiffany23]

14M,

I hope you won’t mind if I hijack this thread, because I’d like to get your and others to comment on something that has intrigued me for years.

That is, as an honest non-believer, I must give credit where credit is due. There are at least two pros of believing in a High Power. The first is it brings Hope to those who otherwise would be in despair. Whether it is in the arena of prayers, hoping that things will get better in this world or the belief that they will be reward in heaven. Regardless, it keeps people going. I’m talking about places where there is basically no Earthy way we (as humanitarians) could help them. We can’t feed all of Africa, or stop the epidemic of Aids. We may make a dent in it, but at some point, we have no power. But if people believe that somehow things will get better, if nothing else it is a placebo effect. And what they think helps them, DOES actually help them.

Every religion that I’ve research has some kind of relief value and promise of things getting better. Even Buddhism, which I follow, has reincarnation..that is, if you do good things, you will move up a step, until all suffering is over…Nirvana.

Secondly, what about moral codes for the masses? I realize that Atheists can argue that mankind doesn't need a religion to teach them to be good/kind to others, but without the possibility of the carrot (heaven if you are good and/or believe in a deity) or the stick (eternal hell and/or the absence of God’s love), then what REALLY will keep people in line?

Let’s say a flying saucer lands on the WH lawn and it ends up being an Ancient Race, and they can prove that there is no God beyond a shadow of a doubt. Of course there will still be hard core believers, but bare with me. If people then realized that nothing keeps them in check, what would happen to society? I’ve run into people of all walks in life that said, if there was really no God/heaven, then they would do whatever they wanted. I realize we could still have police to enforce laws/appropriate conduct. But can you imagine how society would change?

Anyway…would appreciate anyone’s thoughts on this.

[Nelg]

There are a good reasons for encouraging questions that confront one’s own faith. You and I have an obligation to know WHY we believe what we believe. I really cannot answer with assurance if I doubt the answer I am giving, and the Christian’s vocation is to “give an answer” to those who ask us for a reason for the hope within us. It is not a matter of whether I want to give an answer or not. I will give an answer, but it may be false or trivial and the unbeliever’s faith is strengthened; not by a right answer, but by an unprepared, limp response.

I am an apologist wither I want to be or not, so I have better prepare myself.

“The trouble with most theologians is that they go down deeper, stay down longer and come up murkier than anyone else I know.” Giving or having an answer to give someone is not about injecting a dose of confusion into the Gospel message to make it sound more profound. It is about communicating the profundity of the gospel so that it removes the confusion surrounding it. It is a reasoned defense of what you or I believe about God, Christ, and the Bible.

Paul and Peter both used a word to describe their challenge as ministers of faith. Paul said he was appointed for the defense and confirmation of the Gospel. Peter said that saints be prepared, “But in your hearts, set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience…” (1Pet 3:15 -16)

James, the Lord’s brother, describes the “double-minded” person as someone trying to look in two different directions: someone caught between two opinions and not one who has made a commitment in either direction. The reason for persecution is not because Christians are not obeying God’s commands, but because they are obeying God! Christian’s are living a holy life and are dying because of it. Those seeing their lies and attitudes are different and their hope is strong usually want to know the reason “why?” and therefore we should be prepared to give the reason. In other words, there should actually be a demand for an apologetic because of the quality of our lives. Thus, the command to “give an answer” is directed to every Christian.

We need to be prepared. The increasing complexity and diversity of the choices we face in life, coupled with a rapidly changing post-modern society, mean that the easiest course for us is to run away. However, the Christian is called to an engagement with, not a retreat from, the world. Opportunities to share our faith should not be lost because we haven’t taken the time to think through what we would say.

Our confidence rests in the reality of the relationship we enjoy with Christ, the change he has brought into our lives and the truthfulness of his claims. Our confidence is not in a system of thought. It is in the person of Christ. That is why Paul, the apostle says, “I know whom I have believed,” and not what I have believed.


We are not called on to pretend we know something when we don’t. Nor are we boasting of how great our own minds are, as if we had figured out everything by ourselves. With humility, fear of God and honesty, we testify to the truth and reality of the Gospel message, that Christ is still alive.The Gospel promises to change lives. It is no surprise therefore that people expect to see lives changed. If our attitude indicates that Christ makes no difference to how we live or how we treat others, we immediately undermine its credibility. Ultimately, our goal is not to win arguments, but to see people come to know Christ.

[Nelg]

The temptation with apologetics is to offer set answers to set questions. It can be useful to have a structure in mind when dealing with certain issues. However, it is better to have an understanding of how we can effectively engage with people at a conversational level.

Jesus spends a lot of time talking to people: he interacts with them (John 1-7). Whether he is talking to individuals, small groups or large crowds, there is an immediacy and intimacy in what he does. And more often than not, Christ’s conversations were controversial and led Him to ask questions.

Reading through the four Gospels reveals that Jesus asked well over 100 questions of his critics and his questioners. Why? Asking a question forces people to think. Thinking is not the enemy of the Christian faith. We consistently see that Jesus asked questions to make people think about what they were saying. Getting someone to think reveals his or her assumptions.

Asking questions is frequently a better way to do this than jumping into some kind of detailed rebuttal, which I am prone to do. In a conversation people are listening to and thinking about what the other person is saying. In an argument, people end up in an automatic response mode.

Asking questions is also a good way of exposing contradictions as with Relativism. For example someone states, “There is no such thing as truth. If there is ‘TRUTH’ then I would have a reason to live!” Then how can that be answered? Try this, “You say that there is no such thing as truth - tell me, is that statement true?” It is correct to conclude that life must be meaningless if there is no such thing as truth. The faulty assumption made is the belief that the claim “There is not such thing as Truth” is a proclamation that “everything is relative.” To state that everything is relative is to make an absolute claim. If it is absolute, then it follows that not everything is relative. Literally, nothing has been said. You run into a similar problem if you try to deny that there is such a thing as truth. What you are in effect saying is “The truth is, there is no such thing as truth.” However, if the statement is true, then there is such a thing as truth. If there is no such thing as truth, then the statement is not true. If it is not true, why believe it? The statement is literally nonsensical, and “nonsense remains nonsense,” said C. S. Lewis, “even if you talk it about God!”

[Sparta]

Definitely this topic deserves a +1. Very though-provoking, albeit "heavy", and I urge all to read what peoples' thoughts are. As for me, so very much of life is based on faith -- and you are right when you say that it is human nature of have our doubts. But I did hear this said, earlier in my life: "Would you rather have doubts about your faith, or doubts about your doubts?"

In your originating post, you said: "With that said, I'll be willing to go first. I'm an Agnostic/skeptic." As people are reading this thread, some may want to take a break from its seriousness and have a little laugh.

Thus I offer this: Do you know what an agnostic-dyslexic-insomniac does? He/she stays up all night wondering if there really is a Dog. (No offense intended - some of the brightest of the brightest are afflicted with dyslexia, including some in my own family, so my apologies in advance if someone is offended.)

Also, I am happy that many have doubts about their doubts. Bottom line, I think this thread has been an excellent read -- generally +1 all through!