Official discussion on the DEBATE

[Adam Montana]

Big thanks to sonny1 and jmw for participating in the first ever "debate" on DinarVets.com!

The debate is here:

Since it is in the Debate section nobody else is able to comment on it, so please use THIS thread to comment if you wish to do so.

Have a great day!!!

[Chape]

Big thanks to sonny1 and jmw for participating in the first ever "debate" on DinarVets.com!

The debate is here:

Since it is in the Debate section nobody else is able to comment on it, so please use THIS thread to comment if you wish to do so.

Have a great day!!!

Thanks Adam, you were up late, or early/// LOL...

It was good debate. I did not stay the whole time, but popped in once or twice.

Regards to the debaters, they did a great job.

Best to all

[Rossenbos]

Is it possible for someone to elaborate on the effects for all stakeholders ( Iraq Government, CBI / Federal banks, US Government ( and other governments, Iraqi people, us speculators) in case of a LOP and an RV?

I'm wondering if I am missing something....

Thanks!

[k98nights]

Awesome debate! Both debaters make very good points! We'll just have to wait and see what happens.... As for me, I choose to keep believing! Go RV!

[Legolas]

Looks like we now have 3 separate threads going for Official Discussion on the Debate. This is going to get confusing.

[Bumper64]

Looks like we now have 3 separate threads going for Official Discussion on the Debate. This is going to get confusing.

I merged the other 2 together so now we are down to 2!! I just started the other thread so that 50 different people didn't start a thread to ask questions or comment!!

We can make Adam's thread the Official!!

here is the link to the other thread: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77678-members-discussion-thread-for-the-debate-lop-vs-no-lop-sonny1-and-jmw/

[Legolas]

I think it's probably fairly safe to say that this particular discussion, effectively presenting both sides of a hotly debated issue would not be permitted on any other Dinar website. Adam deserves a lot of credit for allowing it to happen and remaining essentially a neutral facilitator. Those who are members of any of the other sites would undoubtedly do a great service to those "other site" members by at least posting "links" to the debate by Sonny and JMW, as well as the two reply threads in our "Opinions" section. The posts on those sites probably won't last long, but at least "some" of those people might get an opportunity to see Dinar Democracy in action. DV is a free site, and does not require that a person join as a member in order to read the threads. In addition to providing that much needed information, IMO, Adam's site deserves the exposure.

[Adam Montana]

I merged the other 2 together so now we are down to 2!! I just started the other thread so that 50 different people didn't start a thread to ask questions or comment!!

We can make Adam's thread the Official!!

here is the link to the other thread: http://dinarvets.com...sonny1-and-jmw/

Shoot, sorry about that Bumper! I didn't see your thread when I started mine.

Let's leave them both.

[Realdinar]

I agree legolas. Yesterdays debate was truly something special. To Adam and all the people involved in this debate, thank you. It was something I believe was needed. Looking back, I was on the edge of my seat like I was watching a boxing match, lol.

[umbertino]

I think it's probably fairly safe to say that this particular discussion, effectively presenting both sides of a hotly debated issue would not be permitted on any other Dinar website. Adam deserves a lot of credit for allowing it to happen and remaining essentially a neutral facilitator. Those who are members of any of the other sites would undoubtedly do a great service to those "other site" members by at least posting "links" to the debate by Sonny and JMW, as well as the two reply threads in our "Opinions" section. The posts on those sites probably won't last long, but at least "some" of those people might get an opportunity to see Dinar Democracy in action. DV is a free site, and does not require that a person join as a member in order to read the threads. In addition to providing that much needed information, IMO, Adam's site deserves the exposure.

Holy words as usual, my wise Friend........

[Darin]

sonny1 seems to like to look only at exchange rate and ignore M1/M2 numbers. Also it seems like his entire argument centers around the idea that the CBI is completely lying about their M1/M2 and that Saleh is lying about everything he says.

Very, very weak arguments.

Have you actually looked at the break-down of those #s?

More than 1/2 is held in bank reserves.... (50%++)

Not to mention, when we're talking #s in trillions, how accurate can they really be..

Just something to consider

[tmcgraw]

The CBI will do exactly what they have said they will do all along.

RD

This is fact. No reason to debate.

Based on the current M2 & their foreign reserves Iraq cannot afford to RV without an RD

This is fact. No reason to debate

There will be NO overnight millionaires

This is fact. No reason to debate

Edited August 1, 2011 by tmcgraw

[Darin]

The CBI will do exactly what they have said they will do all along.

RD

This is fact. No reason to debate.

Based on the current M2 & their foreign reserves Iraq cannot afford to RV without an RD

This is fact. No reason to debate

There will be NO overnight millionaires

This is fact. No reason to debate

Your right, they will re-denominate

Re-denomination means introducing new bills (as in new denominations)

A phrase I like to refer to:

Not all re-denominations are a LOP, however all LOPs are a re-denomination.

That is flat out incorrect, not sure where you're getting that info. Any currency kept in bank reserves is NOT considered part of M1/M2.

You think computers have trouble with the extra zeros?

Hey, I am only going off of what the CBI financial says

For example:

January 2011

Currency in bank reserves (27 trillion)

Currency outside of banks (24 trillion)

Are you saying that the CBI financial spreadsheet is lying??

[Darin]

Ah, I see where the confusion stems from. I thought you were saying this was the banks money and therefore not part of the M2. It isn't, it's just the amount of deposited (i.e. electronic) Dinar, still part of the M2, still part of the problem.

Why do you think it helps the situation? It is still money in circulation (still part of the M2). Just because it's not a physical, tangible bill doesn't make a difference, it's still money.

Of course it is still money, but money held by the banks in capital reserves. And the point I was trying to make was it is rather high. As the exchange rate increases, would they really need to hold the same figures in capital reserves?? This alone could potentially reduce the money supply.

The #s I quoted were from M1

M1 = all physical currency in existance.

M2 = includes the electronic portion

[Darin]

How? Where is this money going to go?

Well, at first glance, doesn't that # seem high?

27 trillion in Jan 2011

We have, what? 22-some banks that participate in daily cbi auctions.

That gives each bank more than 1 trillion in their reserves. That doesn't seem right, now does it?

Especially when Shabbs has said, he wishes to see each private bank hold roughly 250 billion in their capital reserves

22 banks at 250 billion = 5.5 trillion

What is the other 20+ trillion accounting for??

When I reference January #s, it was 27T for Bank Reserves 24T for currency outside of banks.

This goes along with what the CBI has been stating for circulation of notes. We've heard 24-27T in that regard... Of physical notes in existance.

Could the CBI be holding that 20+T?

Could it be Government use notes, or bank-to-bank transfer notes? (I.e., 50k & 100ks)

Remember, upon any increase in a rate, the CBI really is mostly concerned about what comes back & is exchanged from outside their country for other currency. They still need to "account" for what they have within their own region (in case of an domestic economic collapse)

With that portion of the overall question(s) I am still trying to decipher and learn myself. It one of the reason(s) I always felt that the M1 figures were not entirely correct, or they were accounting for items they could easily exclude.

[Darin]

Again I ask, where is the money going to go? How is it going to be removed from the M2? That's all that matters, and I don't see how it's possible.

You may wish to re-read what I post

I refer to M1 figures

Nothing with M2

And if the bulk of that bank reserves is held by the CBI, I would suppose they could do as they please (remove it, destroy it, move forward & not account for it, etc. etc.)

[truthful1]

Iraq has $50 billion in Net Foreign Reserves. Meaning that 50 billion does not include dinar.

[MrFnHappy]

The key financial indicators are posted by the CBI. Both keepm and myself have posted them in the past. Believe it or not.........

In round numbers;

M1 50T

M2 59T

Deposits component of M2 34T

Currency outside banks 25T

Greater transparency was a HUGE deal to the IMF right after we toppled Saddam, and it continues to be of paramount importance.

You can ignore the numbers, or believe they are false, but I choose to believe they are real, and cannot be ignored.

[keepmwlknfny]

The key financial indicators are posted by the CBI. Both keepm and myself have posted them in the past. Believe it or not.........

In round numbers;

M1 50T

M2 59T

Deposits component of M2 34T

Currency outside banks 25T

Greater transparency was a HUGE deal to the IMF right after we toppled Saddam, and it continues to be of paramount importance.

You can ignore the numbers, or believe they are false, but I choose to believe they are real, and cannot be ignored.

Unfortunately I agree......I even posted the pdf file of the CBIs banking laws that specifically state about keeping financials transparent and having internal, and external audits being done......its part of their own freakin laws! LOL

[MrFnHappy]

Unfortunately I agree......I even posted the pdf file of the CBIs banking laws that specifically state about keeping financials transparent and having internal, and external audits being done......its part of their own freakin laws! LOL

Those numbers are under the scrutiny of no less than the IMF, WTO, UN, WB, Major corps who are looking to get involved, big time investors, and of course, us The CBI is NOT "cookin' the books".

[Darin]

Unfortunately I agree......I even posted the pdf file of the CBIs banking laws that specifically state about keeping financials transparent and having internal, and external audits being done......its part of their own freakin laws! LOL

The point(s) I've argued is that the #s may indeed be some-what correct from the result of manipulation.

Going off of memory:

6 trillion dinar shipped in 2004 (Rate 4000:1)

Took, roughly 21 747 jets to transport in.

Now we are claiming that figure has increased to: 27 trillion?

That is an additional 19 trillion dinars (not including what is held by the CBI)

That is nearly 3 trillion printed on a yearly basis.

And does not include the removal of old bills that have worn out

Remember, environmental conditions are rougher on dinar over there than they would be over here.

Hard currency is handle more frequently, is subject to heat, and may be even buried in sand for protection.

So in theory: I think the CBI has printed dinar in the coming years, but only to exchange 1:1 of worn out bills.

Bills drawn in may still be accounted for, or the #s we are seeing is what has been printed "over-all" but does not include what has been removed due to being worn out.

So, in theory, I think the CBI runs two sets of books

1 - to the public

another - maybe to agencies upon any audit...

So we as people don't know the real #s, but government agencies do...

So, yes, they may be forced to be transparent - but not to the average eye like us speculative investors.. But they may be required to be transparent to government agencies.

[keepmwlknfny]

The point(s) I've argued is that the #s may indeed be some-what correct from the result of manipulation.

Going off of memory:

6 trillion dinar shipped in 2004 (Rate 4000:1)

Took, roughly 21 747 jets to transport in.

Now we are claiming that figure has increased to: 27 trillion?

That is an additional 19 trillion dinars (not including what is held by the CBI)

That is nearly 3 trillion printed on a yearly basis.

And does not include the removal of old bills that have worn out

Remember, environmental conditions are rougher on dinar over there than they would be over here.

Hard currency is handle more frequently, is subject to heat, and may be even buried in sand for protection.

So in theory: I think the CBI has printed dinar in the coming years, but only to exchange 1:1 of worn out bills.

Bills drawn in may still be accounted for, or the #s we are seeing is what has been printed "over-all" but does not include what has been removed due to being worn out.

So, in theory, I think the CBI runs two sets of books

1 - to the public

another - maybe to agencies upon any audit...

So we as people don't know the real #s, but government agencies do...

So, yes, they may be forced to be transparent - but not to the average eye like us speculative investors.. But they may be required to be transparent to government agencies.

Didnt we have a discussion about what the figures represent? I think JMW posted the info that stated there is no unissued currency added to the numbers and it also doesnt include any currency returned or exchanged for new.....

I mean the numbers could be off by some, but I dont think that it would be enough by any means to make the situation much different....

Edited August 2, 2011 by keepmwlknfny

[Darin]

Didnt we have a discussion about what the figures represent? I think JMW posted the info that stated there is no unissued currency added to the numbers and it also doesnt include any currency returned or exchanged for new.....

I mean the numbers could be off by some, but I dont think that it would be enough by any means to make the situation much different....

Keep - my argument is that the #s are probably accurate

They're just not accurate to the average speculator. Probably only accurate to government agencies, and auditing companies.

I.e., two sets of books.

.:EDIT:.

To help somewhat validate the theory. Remember when Scooter found their "other" budget and how they were using different #s...

Think of the same concept w/ the CBI.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Darin

[sandyf]

A phrase I like to refer to:

Not all re-denominations are a LOP, however all LOPs are a re-denomination.

Read more:

This statement is quite correct, the UK re-denominated its coinage in 1971.

Maybe I am taking a too simplistic view, if there is to be a RD( as advocated) then what is the hold up on this. The effects would be minimal as there would be no change in the value. The currency would run in parallel till old notes expired, dual pricing could operate in stores, little effect outside Iraq.

So what is stopping a RD taking place, and an international currency with RV to follow?

The fact there appears to be external controlling factors would indicate its not that straightforward. To my mind this indicates there is a high possibility of a straight RV.

[glo]

Awesome debate! Both debaters make very good points! We'll just have to wait and see what happens.... As for me, I choose to keep believing! Go RV!

K98 i wanted to give you +1 and click the -

so here my +10 to you ! sorry !