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Well, now that the dust is settled let’s move on to a less vitriolic conversation.  There’s no need for anybody to get upset and, no reason for this thread to be closed.  I think it’s pretty obvious as to who is a Christian and who is a Jehovah Witness here.  There are strong beliefs held on both sides; some are correct and others are not.  What I know to be absolutely right and correct is that two positives don’t make a negative and two negatives’ don’t make a positive.  In other words, two opposing views cannot both be correct in the same sense at the same time.

 

One view will be correct but wishing and hoping it to be correct without understanding why it is and should be correct, leads to inflammatory and passionate pejoratives such as ‘Mocker’ and ‘Blasphemer.’  There’s no need for that language, who are we trying to convince, ourselves?  God already knows who is who and what lies in their heart of hearts, soul of souls, mind of mind, flesh of flesh…oops, sorry, got carried away for a moment.B)

 

Personally, I don’t believe the JW’s interpretation of the message of the Bible is correct in so many areas.  That is why Botz, I’ve addressed most of my response to you.  One thing that we can both agree upon is that our understanding of what a ‘soul’ is, is completely different one from another.  No sense beating that horse any further

.

Another area where we hold different views is how we interpret scripture.  In one instance with regard to St. John seeing and hearing martyred souls crying out for God’s Judgement for their murder here on earth, you claim it is symbolic.  Yet, when Christ opens the 7th Seal, St. John states, “And I heard the number of those who were sealed; One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.”  In both instances St. John is in the same place observing a Holy Seal being opened and he hears a testimony as to who the 144,000 are.

 

Can you explain why one event is different from the other?  They could both be symbolic and they could both be literal but, they can’t be either/or.  I believe they are literal events.

 

Here is something else you might want to discipline yourself on; interjection.  What I mean by that is, St. John said he heard the souls crying out and you retorted that what St. John saw was symbolic but you added the word ‘Screaming’ in place of crying out. St. John never said the souls were ‘screaming’.

 

Here is another important example of the differences between Christianity and JW’s with regard to the Trinity.  Christians as you know believe God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God; Jehovah  You claim Jesus was created, a mere creature with supernatural powers.

 

  • He actually has convinced people that God´s son IS God...oh and that the holy spirit is God....Oh but they are not 3 but um, one.  Which makes no sense no matter how you slice it."

 

Let me give it a try:  The basic doctrine of the Trinity is one nature and three persons.

 

You may think Christians cheat at math by saying 1+1+1=1 when it is obvious it should be 3.

 

That however, is not the foundation of the Trinity. One to the third power is more accurate 1X1X1=1.  Still, I admit the Trinity is a mystery but can it be understood sufficiently.

One thing the Doctrine of the Trinity is not, is Tritheism; the belief that are three gods in the godhead.

 

The basic doctrine of the Trinity is best understood as one nature and three persons; God is tri-personal, infinite, indivisible, immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and absolutely perfect and just.   God is three persons in one nature.  There is only one essence; “What” in God, but there are three persons; “Whos” in that one “What”.  It is also known as a “Tri-unity”.

 

Another way to look at it is as a triangle.  There are three sides co-equal in dimension but distinct one from another; side ‘A’ cannot be Side ‘B’ and side ‘B’ cannot be side ‘C’ and side ‘C’ cannot be side ‘A’.  Neither is one subordinate to the other but in totality reveal the ‘essence’ of a triangle.

 

I can hear your Botz gears grinding even now as I type, so let’s go straight to the main argument that JW’s stand on with regard to Christ’s deity; Christ cannot be the second person of the Trinity because He is not equal in essence with the Father because He was created by the Father.  If that were true the Doctrine of the Trinity would be absurd.

 

But… Christ was not created but has co-existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit for all eternity as the Triune God. St. Paul states,  “He created all things”(Colossians 1:16) and “has the fullness of the Godhead” (Colossians 2:9) and, “He is before all things.” (Colossians 1:17).  You might want to consider Revelation 21:6-7, where Christ states “He said to me; ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.  To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.  He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.’”  Clearly, Christ is saying He is the beginner and ender of all creation not that He was created at the beginning of the creation of all things.

 

Another fair question is how can the Father be greater than the Son if Jesus is equal to God?  The Father was greater than Jesus as a man but not greater than Christ as God because he too was God.  Jesus was equal in essence but lower in nature.

·         JESUS AS GOD:

o   Unlimited in knowledge

o   No growth in knowledge

o   Knew time of His coming

·         JESUS AS MAN:

o   Limited in knowledge

o   Growth in knowledge

o   Did not know time of His coming

 

The existence of the Holy Spirit is also where Christianity and JW’s disagree.  JW’s believe the spirit of Jehovah is His Holy Spirit whereas Christians believe the Holy Spirit is a person and is equal in the Triune Godhead essence.  His deity is evidenced by His possessing the names of God; having the attributes of God; performing the acts of God; and His association with God in benedictions and baptismal formulas.

 

We can go and on and on but the reality is Christians believe two thousand years of orthodoxy whereas JW’s believe a new revelation occurred in 1799 when C.T. Russell proclaimed mankind was living in the last days and that Christ was going to return in 1874.  The Watchtower Society grew from that moment never ceasing to adjust dates and prophecy to match their theology.  That’s a lot of editing to have accomplished in 200 some years but I’m confident in their ability to keep pace with the changing times.B)

 

Am I passionate about converting JW’s…? Not in the least, I believe a man will believe what he wants to believe regardless of anything I have to say.

 

So Botz, since you never answered my question, “What is the purpose of the atonement?”  I’ll assume it will be contrary to the Orthodox understanding and leave it at that.

 

In the meantime know that if I erred in presenting a JW belief or position it was unintentional.

 

GH

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Would love to debate you on this but because of everytime I post some MONUMENTALLY petty people have decided to go on a witch hunt and negative everything I say...wheather  it is about this topic or not.  I got a few negatives for a post of GO RV.   Now that is frickin petty.  

 

I got 25 negatives the first day, 18 the next, 15 the next for OLD posts of mine that had nothing to do with this subject.  Some people that cannot throw their hat into the debate ring are trying to be cowards and just get me banned yet they cannot see the correlation that people would hate God´s people in this modern age.  Who is being persecuted?  Myself or them?  Anyways...

 

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.mx/2016/10/trinity-proof-texts-refuted.html

 

Any questions you have Mr. Hayduke refer to the link above.  It destroys every argument that there could be a Trinity.  

 

To LGD and his cohorts- yeah I stole that from him because he can communicate with vip members and thus...actually have cohorts to negative me into oblivion.  Adios!

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6 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Would love to debate you on this but because of everytime I post some MONUMENTALLY petty people have decided to go on a witch hunt and negative everything I say...wheather  it is about this topic or not.  I got a few negatives for a post of GO RV.   Now that is frickin petty.  

 

I got 25 negatives the first day, 18 the next, 15 the next for OLD posts of mine that had nothing to do with this subject.  Some people that cannot throw their hat into the debate ring are trying to be cowards and just get me banned yet they cannot see the correlation that people would hate God´s people in this modern age.  Who is being persecuted?  Myself or them?  Anyways...

 

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.mx/2016/10/trinity-proof-texts-refuted.html

 

Any questions you have Mr. Hayduke refer to the link above.  It destroys every argument that there could be a Trinity.  

 

To LGD and his cohorts- yeah I stole that from him because he can communicate with vip members and thus...actually have cohorts to negative me into oblivion.  Adios!

 

Here's a green one for ya BOZ, I appreciate you trying to keep it in relevant threads.

 

   pp

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1 hour ago, Botzwana said:

Would love to debate you on this but because of everytime I post some MONUMENTALLY petty people have decided to go on a witch hunt and negative everything I say...wheather  it is about this topic or not.  I got a few negatives for a post of GO RV.   Now that is frickin petty.  

 

I do not think there is really a debate and people who respond to You do so to present their basis with regard to the topic. I for one do not really want to debate You but to present the TRUTH. However, I have found You to misconstrue and misrepresent what I say. Just because You believe in something does not make it TRUTH like what I believe does not make it TRUTH. The TRUTH is manifested by the Scripture itself. The materials You bring over use selective criterion to deny the TRUTH. In comparison to other relevant Scriptures, the material You present is obviously false. When presented with the clear Scriptures, You incessantly dichotomize to obscure the TRUTH and misrepresent what the poster has said. How is is petty to present You with the TRUTH? People see right through what You post and know it to be false. Why is it petty to present the TRUTH? Presenting a repertoire of false doctrine does not mean people are going to accept that who really want to know and adhere to the TRUTH. I do not think people presenting viable TRUTH in Scripture is any way petty. Hey, I know You had a typo in Your post so no big deal on that. Right?

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1 hour ago, Synopsis said:

 

I do not think there is really a debate and people who respond to You do so to present their basis with regard to the topic. I for one do not really want to debate You but to present the TRUTH. However, I have found You to misconstrue and misrepresent what I say. Just because You believe in something does not make it TRUTH like what I believe does not make it TRUTH. The TRUTH is manifested by the Scripture itself. The materials You bring over use selective criterion to deny the TRUTH. In comparison to other relevant Scriptures, the material You present is obviously false. When presented with the clear Scriptures, You incessantly dichotomize to obscure the TRUTH and misrepresent what the poster has said. How is is petty to present You with the TRUTH? People see right through what You post and know it to be false. Why is it petty to present the TRUTH? Presenting a repertoire of false doctrine does not mean people are going to accept that who really want to know and adhere to the TRUTH. I do not think people presenting viable TRUTH in Scripture is any way petty. Hey, I know You had a typo in Your post so no big deal on that. Right?

Actually Synopsis....https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/how-many-jw-members/  8,340,982  Jehovahs Witnesses agree with me.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Actually Synopsis....https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/how-many-jw-members/  8,340,982  Jehovahs Witnesses agree with me.

 

 

 

Such a shame too... All too proud to admit they were wrong too...

 

Matthew 7:13-15 (NASB)

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

 

 

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Sorry Mark...but you guys are on the broadway.  8 million is a drop in the bucket compared to Christendumb.  

Witnesses are the only ones actually doing the lord´s work.  The only ones going door to door with regularity of all ages.  Mormons do it but only for 2 years.

Did you notice the 20 million at that link that attend our memorial once a year?

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7 hours ago, Botzwana said:

Sorry Mark...but you guys are on the broadway.  8 million is a drop in the bucket compared to Christendumb.  

Witnesses are the only ones actually doing the lord´s work.  The only ones going door to door with regularity of all ages.  Mormons do it but only for 2 years.

Did you notice the 20 million at that link that attend our memorial once a year?

 

??? Is this a typo? I just want to clarify.

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28 minutes ago, Synopsis said:

 

??? Is this a typo? I just want to clarify.

 

None of my business, but I do believe it's a typo......however, it is capitalized.  :blink:

 

GO RV, then BV

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49 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Oh I call Christendom....christendumb.  It was done on purpose.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom

 

It is the worldwide empire of false religion.

 

Interesting.

 

Why would You, being a purveyor of obviously false doctrine, call Christendom a worldwide empire of false religion? Your posts have demonstrated You do not accept obvious TRUTH stated by Scriptures. So, why would anyone accept Your statements as intelligent? The posts You have made have obviously been summarily, conclusively, and finally debunked by obvious statements in Scripture.

 

To demonstrate, here is an obvious depiction of the Trinity:

 

Matthew 28:16-20 New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

And this after God The Son Jesus Christ was worshipped by HIS disciples.

 

Is God schizophrenic? I think not.

 

I don't think God in any way is obligated to answer to any man to a specific summary by man of HIS eternal and immutable characteristics.

 

In a sense, I think it to be frustrating but eternally rewarding to pursue relationship with HIM because HE said:

 

Exodus 3:13-17New International Version (NIV)

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,[b] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

“This is my name forever,
    the name you shall call me
    from generation to generation.

16 “Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.’

Footnotes:

  1. Exodus 3:14 Or I will be what I will be
  2. Exodus 3:15 The Hebrew for Lord sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for I am in verse 14.
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Also, HE said:

 

Isaiah 55:8-11New International Version (NIV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
    come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
    without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

1 Corinthians 2:15-16New International Version (NIV)

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?”[a]

But we have the mind of Christ.

Footnotes:

  1. 1 Corinthians 2:16 Isaiah 40:13
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Isaiah 40:13-14New International Version (NIV)

13 Who can fathom the Spirit[a] of the Lord,
    or instruct the Lord as his counselor?
14 Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him,
    and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge,
    or showed him the path of understanding?

Footnotes:

  1. Isaiah 40:13 Or mind
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

So, I'll listen to HIS voice and receive what HE gives regarding the TRUTH.

 

John 10:1-6New International Version (NIV)

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep

10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

 
 
John 10:27-30 New International Version (NIV)

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life,and they shall never perish; no one will sn@tch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can sn@tch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Footnotes:

  1. John 10:29 Many early manuscripts What my Father has given me is greater than all
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

Edited by Synopsis
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***  Bit-O-Humor, No Offense Intended  *** 

 

Q) How do you know when it's really really cold out? 

 

A)  When there's a J.W. froze to your porch.  :o

 

Now....back to our regular scheduled Trinity.  

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14 hours ago, Botzwana said:

Would love to debate you on this but because of everytime I post some MONUMENTALLY petty people have decided to go on a witch hunt and negative everything I say...wheather  it is about this topic or not.  I got a few negatives for a post of GO RV.   Now that is frickin petty.  

 

I got 25 negatives the first day, 18 the next, 15 the next for OLD posts of mine that had nothing to do with this subject.  Some people that cannot throw their hat into the debate ring are trying to be cowards and just get me banned yet they cannot see the correlation that people would hate God´s people in this modern age.  Who is being persecuted?  Myself or them?  Anyways...

 

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.mx/2016/10/trinity-proof-texts-refuted.html

 

Any questions you have Mr. Hayduke refer to the link above.  It destroys every argument that there could be a Trinity.  

 

To LGD and his cohorts- yeah I stole that from him because he can communicate with vip members and thus...actually have cohorts to negative me into oblivion.  Adios!

 

I was unaware of that...Sorry to hear

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4 hours ago, Synopsis said:

 

Interesting.

 

Why would You, being a purveyor of obviously false doctrine, call Christendom a worldwide empire of false religion? Your posts have demonstrated You do not accept obvious TRUTH stated by Scriptures. So, why would anyone accept Your statements as intelligent? The posts You have made have obviously been summarily, conclusively, and finally debunked by obvious statements in Scripture.

 

To demonstrate, here is an obvious depiction of the Trinity:

 

Matthew 28:16-20 New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

And this after God The Son Jesus Christ was worshipped by HIS disciples.

 

Is God schizophrenic? I think not.

 

I don't think God in any way is obligated to answer to any man to a specific summary by man of HIS eternal and immutable characteristics.

 

In a sense, I think it to be frustrating but eternally rewarding to pursue relationship with HIM because HE said:

 

Exodus 3:13-17New International Version (NIV)

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,[b] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

“This is my name forever,
    the name you shall call me
    from generation to generation.

16 “Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.’

Footnotes:

  1. Exodus 3:14 Or I will be what I will be
  2. Exodus 3:15 The Hebrew for Lord sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for I am in verse 14.
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Also, HE said:

 

Isaiah 55:8-11New International Version (NIV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
    come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
    without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

1 Corinthians 2:15-16New International Version (NIV)

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?”[a]

But we have the mind of Christ.

Footnotes:

  1. 1 Corinthians 2:16  Isaiah 40:13
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Isaiah 40:13-14New International Version (NIV)

13 Who can fathom the Spirit[a] of the Lord,
    or instruct the Lord as his counselor?
14 Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him,
    and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge,
    or showed him the path of understanding?

Footnotes:

  1. Isaiah 40:13 Or mind
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

So, I'll listen to HIS voice and receive what HE gives regarding the TRUTH.

 

John 10:1-6New International Version (NIV)

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep

10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

 
 
John 10:27-30 New International Version (NIV)

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life,and they shall never perish; no one will sn@tch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can sn@tch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Footnotes:

  1. John 10:29 Many early manuscripts What my Father has given me is greater than all
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

Ya know Synop,  you do not have to quote the entire Bible in a post.  One or two scriptures will suffice for us to discuss them.  When you get past that it takes a long time to type...

 

So you think Christendom has the truth huh?  You believe in a purgatory like the Catholics then.  After all you JUST said that Christendom has the truth.  Really?  I cannot believe you believe in infant baptism.  Please show me the scripture on that one.  Show me the scripture on purgatory while you are at it.  SHOW me where it says in the Bible we have to wear the Giant Catholic hats!  Show me where true Christians are supposed to go to war and kill each other.  Afterall, YOU just said you totally believed in Christendom.  These tennants fall under Christendom.  I will await your answer.

 

 

I have already covered the scriptures you quoted  before in other posts.  I don´t know why you want to see my explanation again...

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11 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Afterall, YOU just said you totally believed in Christendom.

 

I did not say that. Interesting how You, misconstrue what I said. I do not have any problem quoting actual Scripture as a basis for my belief since I believe I need to know and believe what Scriptures say without any previously documented theology or doctrines.

 

Here are a couple things I have said in the past that I did not get from any previously established theology or doctrine:

 

God is not limited by man's intellect. Nor is God subject to the devices or constraints of man's reason. And, God is absolutely not bound to the promptings and or practices of man.

 

The eternal attributes of God are not revealed by the opposing intellect of man under contest.

 

I have been pretty clear from Scripture what I believe and have no interest in defending any theological or doctrinal statements. I will just quote Scripture for what I believe. I also will not valid or justify a counter Scriptural basis on it's merits since it is useless to contradict a tightly held contradiction by those who deny the obvious Scriptural statements.

 

Ecclesiastes 10:12-15New International Version (NIV)

12 Words from the mouth of the wise are gracious,
    but fools are consumed by their own lips.
13 At the beginning their words are folly;
    at the end they are wicked madness—
14     and fools multiply words.

No one knows what is coming—
    who can tell someone else what will happen after them?

15 The toil of fools wearies them;
    they do not know the way to town.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 26:4-5New International Version (NIV)

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
    or you yourself will be just like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
    or he will be wise in his own eyes.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 27:3-5New International Version (NIV)

Stone is heavy and sand a burden,
    but a fool’s provocation is heavier than both.

Anger is cruel and fury overwhelming,
    but who can stand before jealousy?

Better is open rebuke
    than hidden love.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

So, no matter how a person slices and dices it, folly of the wisdom of man is to be avoided. Scripture is not folly. I'll rely on what Scriptures say.

 

James 3:13-18New International Version (NIV)

Two Kinds of Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Colossians 2:6-10New International Version (NIV)

Spiritual Fullness in Christ

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Footnotes:

  1. Colossians 2:8 Or the basic principles; also in verse 20
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

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1 hour ago, Synopsis said:

 

I did not say that. Interesting how You, misconstrue what I said. I do not have any problem quoting actual Scripture as a basis for my belief since I believe I need to know and believe what Scriptures say without any previously documented theology or doctrines.

 

Here are a couple things I have said in the past that I did not get from any previously established theology or doctrine:

 

God is not limited by man's intellect. Nor is God subject to the devices or constraints of man's reason. And, God is absolutely not bound to the promptings and or practices of man.

 

The eternal attributes of God are not revealed by the opposing intellect of man under contest.

 

I have been pretty clear from Scripture what I believe and have no interest in defending any theological or doctrinal statements. I will just quote Scripture for what I believe. I also will not valid or justify a counter Scriptural basis on it's merits since it is useless to contradict a tightly held contradiction by those who deny the obvious Scriptural statements.

 

Ecclesiastes 10:12-15New International Version (NIV)

12 Words from the mouth of the wise are gracious,
    but fools are consumed by their own lips.
13 At the beginning their words are folly;
    at the end they are wicked madness—
14     and fools multiply words.

No one knows what is coming—
    who can tell someone else what will happen after them?

15 The toil of fools wearies them;
    they do not know the way to town.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 26:4-5New International Version (NIV)

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
    or you yourself will be just like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
    or he will be wise in his own eyes.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 byBiblica, Inc.®Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.   

 

Proverbs 27:3-5New International Version (NIV)

Stone is heavy and sand a burden,
    but a fool’s provocation is heavier than both.

Anger is cruel and fury overwhelming,
    but who can stand before jealousy?

Better is open rebuke
    than hidden love.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

So, no matter how a person slices and dices it, folly of the wisdom of man is to be avoided. Scripture is not folly. I'll rely on what Scriptures say.

 

James 3:13-18New International Version (NIV)

Two Kinds of Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Colossians 2:6-10New International Version (NIV)

Spiritual Fullness in Christ

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Footnotes:

  1. Colossians 2:8 Or the basic principles; also in verse 20
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

Nope.  You defended Christendom.  That means all of their teachings.  Take responsibility for your stance.  

 

You only post scripture for your beliefs...Well then, I hate to say it...but you are not a good teacher then.

 

Remember the Ethopian Eunuch?  He had no idea what he was reading.  NONE.  Not a clue.  Phillip was led by God to find him and....EXPLAIN it to him.  The fact that you ignore this biblical command tells me all I need to know.

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16 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

You only post scripture for your beliefs...Well then, I hate to say it...but you are not a good teacher then.

 

John 14:15-31 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me.Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.

Footnotes:

  1. John 14:17 Some early manuscripts and is
New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

So, OK, Botzwana, God The Holy Spirit is the teacher, not me. So, I'll use and rely on the words HE caused men to write since I believe it is only God The Holy Spirit that reveals HIS TRUTH.

 

So with regard to all Your other rhetoric, You have deviated off the topic of the original poster. No wonder, since You have no valid Scriptures to post, You rely on false doctrine. And when You realize THAT does not work, You attempt to demean others and attempt to engage in other topics not related to the original post. So, I suggest You start other posts of Your own choosing so that people can comment on those topics if they so desire.

 

As I have mentioned previously, Botzwana, I would not be posting like this if I did not believe God The Holy Spirit is addressing You. I do not know what You did or are doing that is gnawing at You but HIS relief is available to You. It matters not what You think of my posts. I am only concerned that You listen to HIS voice and respond as HE leads You. So, I'll use HIS words as printed in Scriptures.

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I am trying to get you to say it Synop.  Admit it.  Since you so FREELY say my religion and beliefs are wrong.  Say it.  Tell me the Catholic church is false too.  If you do not, I will know you have a bias only against me and not others that do not teach what you believe.

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1 hour ago, Botzwana said:

I am trying to get you to say it Synop.  Admit it.  Since you so FREELY say my religion and beliefs are wrong.  Say it.  Tell me the Catholic church is false too.  If you do not, I will know you have a bias only against me and not others that do not teach what you believe.

 

Interesting.

 

As mentioned earlier, why don't You start other fresh topics You are interested in?

 

Proverbs 13:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

The light of the righteous shines brightly,
    but the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.

10 Where there is strife, there is pride,
    but wisdom is found in those who take advice.

11 Dishonest money dwindles away,
    but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 20:2-4New International Version (NIV)

A king’s wrath strikes terror like the roar of a lion;
    those who anger him forfeit their lives.

3 It is to one’s honor to avoid strife,
    but every fool is quick to quarrel.

Sluggards do not plow in season;
    so at harvest time they look but find nothing.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 22:9-11New International Version (NIV)

The generous will themselves be blessed,
    for they share their food with the poor.

10 Drive out the mocker, and out goes strife;
    quarrels and insults are ended.

11 One who loves a pure heart and who speaks with grace
    will have the king for a friend.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 26:20-22New International Version (NIV)

20 Without wood a fire goes out;
    without a gossip a quarrel dies down.
21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire,
    so is a quarrelsome person for kindling strife.
22 The words of a gossip are like choice morsels;
    they go down to the inmost parts.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Proverbs 30:32-33New International Version (NIV)

32 “If you play the fool and exalt yourself,
    or if you plan evil,
    clap your hand over your mouth!
33 For as churning cream produces butter,
    and as twisting the nose produces blood,
    so stirring up anger produces strife.”

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

 

Hey, Botzwana, if You want to stir up the crap then You are going to have to lick the spoon!

 

You just can't stand it, can You Botzwana? I do not take doctrinal positions but only use Scriptures to clearly refute Your bogus and false doctrine! Of course You want to shove people into defending doctrinal positions to create arguements, dissensions, and strife but the only source of TRUTH is the Scriptures to put an end to misunderstandings. Unless, of course, the clear and basic message of each Scripture passage has been twisted into falsehood. So, Your contest is really with what Scriptures say. I'll stick with Scriptures.

 

You know, this is worse than ADD for You. You are chattering off like some electrocuted kangaroo in a rubber room. You know what You present is baseless so You change the subject or try to get others to engage in strife.

 

So Your inappropriate impositions on any given topic is highly inappropriate and, obviously, I am not obligated to engage!

 

Now, are You ready to accept what Scripture really says about God The Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God The Holy Spirit as noted earlier in this thread? Also as noted earlier, God is NOT schizophrenic!

 

Shame, Shame, Shame, Botzwana.

 

:shakehead:   :shakehead:   :shakehead:

 
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Nope. You asked what Christendumb was.  I told you.  Now you defend them.  You cannot say they are false but you can about me.  HAHA.  I love it.  What a coward!

 

Again find me purgatory, etc. in the bible.  The catholics believe this.  Yet you have too much cowardice to admit so.  I am bold.  I am a true man.  I am taking on all of you while you gang up on me.  Who has the courage here?  Me.  I am all by my lonesome on this forum.  

 

I have already proved multiple times that the Trinity is manmade junk.  Shall I do it again?  You won´t even investigate the scriptures I bring so what good is it?  You are dead set in your false belief.

 

Oh as a good ole Christian do you celebrate Christmas?  Ten bucks says you do.  

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A quick reminder of the Forum Rules with a special highlight.

 

"DO NOT Make Inappropriate or Offensive Posts - including threats, harassment, swearing, prejudice, slander or deliberate insults/name-calling, or other negative remarks about DinarVets, its moderators and administrators, or your fellow members. Even if this is just your own personal opinion, RESPECT YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS"

 

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......Just a suggestion...This thread has expressed everyone's stance and beliefs....Let's leave it with our own convictions and close in knowing there are far worse religious institutions to worry about than the ones mentioned....jmho

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8 minutes ago, skeetdog said:

......Just a suggestion...This thread has expressed everyone's stance and beliefs....Let's leave it with our own convictions and close in knowing there are far worse religious institutions to worry about than the ones mentioned....jmho

 

Amen. 

 

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”  Matthew 7:13-14

 

May we all seek the "narrow gate".

 

Edited by DinarDavo
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Genesis 1:26

Who is "us" and "our" referring to if not the Trinity?

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

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