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9 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Just because certain objects are truine...Solid liquid or gas...that has nothing to do wheather God is truine or not.  Let´s take wood.  You can make a boat, a house, a carving, use it as firewood, and many other uses for it.  Probably 50 one could think of.  Does that mean God is 50 gods JUST because wood can do all of these things?  No.  Not anymore than an egg having a shell, white and yellow make God a truine God because of that.

 

Matthew 28:18-20  (NASB)

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

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There ya go!  Ya got 3.  We know the name of the father is Jehovah.  We know the name of the son is Jesus.  Hmm...what is the NAME of the holy spirit?  Because holy spirit is not a name.  Everything has a name.  People, dogs, plants...curious... I mean if the trinity is SO important that we know it...is there no verse that says the holy spirit´s name?

 

But even so with this verse.  All it does it list three beings.  It does not say they are a truine God.  Even the word Trinity is not found in the Bible.  I mean if it is so important that we believe a trinity, you would think there would be verses all over the place saying I AM GOD AND I AM TRIUNE.  But there aren´t any.

 

Ever hear a police man say Stop in the NAME of the law?  Stop in the name of love is a song...So just because something says I do this in the name of...does not make it a triune of anything either.

 

If Jesus were really God for instance.  Would he not know everything?  God knows everything right?  Yet Jesus had no idea when the end would come.  He said only the father would know.  

Edited by Botzwana
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So Botz respectfully asking, do you as a JW, because I am curious, only worship God the Father as Jehova and that's it? If so what do you do with Jesus and the Holy Ghost? Do you worship them as separate entities or not at all? 

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Well RMC...I am no longer one of Jehovahs Witnesses.  I believe they have it around 80% deadon accurate about the Bible....but 20% manmade stuff I do not agree with.  So I stopped going in 2010.  

 

Jesus taught us to pray to the father right?  So yes, we worship the father, Jehovah God.  We do not worship Jesus nor the Holy Spirit.  Remember Jesus saying do not do that.  There is no one that is good, only God?  I believe like Witnesses taught that the holy spirit is just god´s force that he uses.  Much like the force in Star Wars.  It is his power he uses.  But it is not a person, and not a god.  I also believe what they taught me about hell too.  Hell as a teaching makes no sense to me.

Edited by Botzwana
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Revelation 1:8 (NASB)

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

Revelation 21:5-7 (NASB)

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

 

Revelation 22:13  (NASB)

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

In the first three passages, the Alpha and the Omega is Jehovah God right?  Now see below:

 

Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

 

How did the First and last die?  When did God die?

 

Philippians 2:5-11  (NASB)

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

"Paul is telling us that though Jesus Christ is eternally God by nature, He did not cling to His prerogative as God's equal, but chose to  humble Himself and take on human flesh.  Christ did not give up His divine nature. But while on earth Jesus Christ chose to temporarily self-impose limitations upon His divine attributes.

 

While on earth, Jesus Christ chose not to be omniscient.  He chose not to be omnipotent, and He chose rather to live as a man and to submit himself fully to the will of the Father on earth.  When He died on the cross He was the perfect sacrifice, the infinite sacrifice, the eternal lamb of God who shed His blood once for all times for the remission of our sins. "

("Fast Facts on False Teachings", Ron Carlson & Ed Decker, pg 132)

 

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Here is a quote from another Christian. Jesus never said for us to not worship him.

 

"I can think of: 
John 9:38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him 
Mark 5:6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 
Matthew 15:25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 
Matthew 2:11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 

As you point out, it is clear that people worshipped Jesus. I can find nothing that says otherwise 

I can also think that others said not to worship men, demonstrating that it was not a common practice to anyone but God.... 
Acts 10:25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man." 


Angels too 
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

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In Numbers back in that time noone had seen God yet because Jesus had not yet been born. The only people to have been close enough to even talk to him were Moses, Abraham, and Jacob wrestled with an angel. When Jesus was born that was the first time any man had seen God. Just my 2 cents. Gotta go to sleep. Everyone have a good night. ♡

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MArkinsa,  is that copying and pasting I see?  I was hoping for discussion.  Heck anyone can copy and paste.  Watch.

 What does the Bible teach about Jesus’ existence before he came to earth?

10 The Bible teaches that Jesus lived in heaven before he came to earth. Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem and also said that His origin was “from ancient times.” (Micah 5:2) On many occasions, Jesus himself said that he lived in heaven before being born as a human. (Read John 3:13; 6:38, 62; 17:4, 5) As a spirit creature in heaven, Jesus had a special relationship with Jehovah.

11. How does the Bible show that Jesus is Jehovah’s most precious Son?

11 Jesus is Jehovah’s most precious Son—and for good reason. He is called “the firstborn of all creation,” for he was God’s first creation. *(Colossians 1:15) There is something else that makes this Son special. He is the “only-begotten Son.” (John 3:16) This means that Jesus is the only one directly created by God. Jesus is also the only one whom God used when He created all other things. (Colossians 1:16) Then, too, Jesus is called “the Word.” (John 1:14) This tells us that he spoke for God, no doubt delivering messages and instructions to the Father’s other sons, both spirit and human.

12. How do we know that the firstborn Son is not equal to God?

12 Is the firstborn Son equal to God, as some believe? That is not what the Bible teaches. As we noted in the preceding paragraph, the Son was created. Obviously, then, he had a beginning, whereas Jehovah God has no beginning or end. (Psalm 90:2) The only-begotten Son  never even considered trying to be equal to his Father. The Bible clearly teaches that the Father is greater than the Son. (Read John 14:28;1 Corinthians 11:3) Jehovah alone is “God Almighty.” (Genesis 17:1) Therefore, he has no equal. *

13. What does the Bible mean when it refers to the Son as “the image of the invisible God”?

13 Jehovah and his firstborn Son enjoyed close association for billions of years—long before the starry heavens and the earth were created. How they must have loved each other! (John 3:35; 14:31) This dear Son was just like his Father. That is why the Bible refers to the Son as “the image of the invisible God.” (Colossians 1:15) Yes, even as a human son may closely resemble his father in various ways, this heavenly Son reflected his Father’s qualities and personality.

14. How did Jehovah’s only-begotten Son come to be born as a human?

14 Jehovah’s only-begotten Son willingly left heaven and came down to earth to live as a human. But you may wonder, ‘How was it possible for a spirit creature to be born as a human?’ To accomplish this, Jehovah performed a miracle. He transferred the life of his firstborn Son from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. No human father was involved. Mary thus gave birth to a perfect son and named him Jesus.—Luke 1:30-35.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven.[88] He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God",[89] but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity. Jesus is said to have been used by God in the creation of all other things.[90] Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Archangel, Michael, "the Word" of John 1:1, and wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 refer to Jesus in his pre-human existence and that he resumed these identities after his ascension to heaven following his death and resurrection. They also identify him with the "rider of the white horse" at Revelation 6 and 19.[91] His birth on earth was accomplished when he willingly allowed himself to be transferred, by God, from heaven to the womb of the virgin, Mary.[92] While on earth, Jesus was executed as a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins, becoming the "eternal father" to the human family.[93]

They believe that after his death, Jesus appeared to his disciples, convinced them of his resurrection, and then ascended into heaven to sit at Jehovah's right hand until he would become the promised king of God's heavenly kingdom. Jesus acts as the mediator of a "new covenant"[94] referred to in Jeremiah 31:31, Luke 22:20, and Hebrews 9:15; 12:24, directly mediating only for those going to heaven (the 144,000). Those with an earthly hope are said to be beneficiaries of that covenant.[95][96][97] Even as king of God's kingdom, Jesus remains subordinate to God.[98] Witnesses reject the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, who they believe bore more children after Jesus.[99]

Cross

 

Now RMC, The trinitarian A Dictionary of the Bible, James Hastings, Vol. 4, p. 943, says the following about worship in the New Testament:

"Christian worship in NT times is usually offered to God as Father through Jesus Christ as His Son (see Ro. 1:8, Eph. 1:3; 3:14). The Aramaic 'Abba' ['Father'] appears to have been adopted as the peculiar title for God in the Churches (see Ro. 8:15)."

This trinitarian work, not unexpectedly, goes on to suggest that worship may have also been offered to Christ, but

"some indefiniteness attaches to this subject, partly owing to the two senses in which the Gr[eek] word [proskuneo] is used, and partly owing to the ambiguous usage of the title ['Lord']."

It further admits that although some trinitarians insist such scriptures as Mt 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 17:14,15; 20:20 28:9,17; Lk 7:37,38; 17:15,16; 24:51,52; Jn 9:35-38; 20:17 prove that Jesus was 'worshiped,'

"it cannot be proved that in any of these cases ... more than an act of homage and humble obeisance is intended."

So this trinitarian reference work admits that the Father is definitely (and most often) given the exclusive worship that is due God alone, but that there are uncertainties that such is really the case with Jesus.

There is actually only one instance where, at first glance, we might think that Jesus is probably being worshiped in the highest sense of the word. But in reality it turns out to be just as ambiguous and dubious as the rest.

At Heb. 1:6 the KJV (and many other trinitarian translations) says: "And again, when he [the Father] bringeth in the first begotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship [proskuneo] him."

However, when we look up this scripture in the Old Testament (the trinitarian New Oxford Annotated Bible; New American Standard Bible [Ref. ed.]; and Dr. W. F. Beck [Lutheran] in his New Testament in the Language of Today [1964] all refer Heb. 1:6 to Deut. 32:43), we find that Deut. 32:43 does not refer to the Father bringing his firstborn Son into the world and, in fact, in the Septuagint, instructs the angels to worship God (Jehovah, the Father) with no reference to Christ or the Son whatsoever.

So there is the distinct possibility that Heb. 1:6 is saying that all the angels worship the Father at that time. But even if the writer of Hebrews is saying the angels "worship" [proskuneo] the Son, it certainly doesn't have to mean "worship" in the highest sense. Even these trinitarian translations admit as much in their renderings of Heb. 1:6 - The New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed; Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible; The Letter to the Hebrews - The Daily Study Bible Series, Dr. William Barclay.

We have, then, a few doubtful references to the "worship" of Jesus (and no references to the worship of the "equally God" Holy Spirit) as compared to many certain commands to worship Jehovah, the Father!

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(I was tired last night because it was around midnight by the way :) ) So I did some studying this morning because I am interested in this convo.. this is what I found and it's okay to copy and laste if you fully agree with the statement. It was actually John who wrote that noone has seen God byt many people have seen God in various forms just not in His full glory except John in Revelations. I will tell you that there are smarter people than me that are schooled in knowing God's word better. I'm just average when it comes to that but what I said still has some merit even though I wrote the wrong book (for some reason I thought someone say that verse was written in Numbers) because up until Jesus was born noone had yet seen God. Even Adam and Eve never SAW God even though they enjoyed his prescence. They heard him speak but that was it. This is someone else's writings below but it's a good explanation. 

 

"To see Christ is to see the Father, but is this to see the Father “fully”? I think not. In His incarnation, our Lord’s full glory was “veiled,” with sneak previews like the transfiguration. But when John saw our Lord glorified in Revelation 1, he fell before Him as a dead man (by the way, was this not in a vision? Rev. 1:9-17). It is this John who has said that he “saw the Lord” “with his own eyes” (along with the others) in 1 John 1:1-2. And yet in the same book, he writes,

“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2, NKJV).

It seems to me that there are at least two elements involved in man’s not being able to see God. The first is that God is spirit, and can’t be seen apart from divine enablement (this was true even of the angels (2 Kings 6:17). Thus, what men saw of God must have been a kind of partial manifestation of God. When our Lord came to the earth, men did see God manifested in human flesh, but still not in the full radiance of His glory, as John seems to indicate in 1 John 3:2."

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Greetings to all who are participating in this discussion.  Must say it reminds me of the book of Job when Job's friends try to counsel him on his wrongdoing.  In the end, as you know, God shows up and tells them all He is not impressed.  This may be fun for you all, but I'm pretty sure no one is going to change their opinion.

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Botz I'm not trying to change your mind because we are both probably at the age where our minds are already made up on many a thing but thank you for stating what you believe because it was very informative and gave me a good perspective on what (even though you are not JW anymore) JWS believe. I was always curious about it. I still believe Jesus is part of the Trinity but like I've said before we are still all entitled to our own beliefs. ♡ Shedegal we were thinking on the same lines. I just really was curious about the different belief since I know quite a few JWS myself. I've talked to a few of them about a few things but I usually don't talk to anyone who knocks on my door. Not personal enough for me to feel comfortable talking about such things. 

Edited by Rmc10
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9 hours ago, Markinsa said:

How did the First and last die?  When did God die?

@Botzwana I only quoted from a paperback book and I gave the source I didn't copy from a website. But good redirect on your part. Please answer my question from my previous post.

 

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11 hours ago, Markinsa said:

@Botzwana I only quoted from a paperback book and I gave the source I didn't copy from a website. But good redirect on your part. Please answer my question from my previous post.

Markinsa you are spot on with all of your posts. Great verses, not half verses or small sections of verses to try and prove your point. Straight from the Word which is where we get our knowledge and understanding through the "Ruach Hakodesh". To take away the Diety of Jesus Christ and believe that Holy Spirit is not a person brings in to question a person's salvation. Because only a Holy God can die for an unholy mankind. And as your verses clearly stated above, Yes. The day Christ died was the day God died. But HE did not stay dead because HE has the power over sin and death, otherwise we would all be lost to eternal damnation. But that is between each person and Christ Jesus how HE is going to handle those that do not believe HE is God. I believe HE is love and would forgive the person. 

Great stuff though. Stay strong in the LORD and Spirit of his might. Keep taking HIS Kingdom by force because the enemy will never relent until his time is up.

God bless.

 

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Are BOTH Jesus and Jehovah Really the Alpha and Omega?

 
Some trinitarians attempt to prove their "Jehovah is Jesus" idea by pointing to Rev. 1:8 where God is clearly called "Alpha and Omega" and then saying that Jesus claims the same title at Rev. 22:13. They point to Rev. 22:16 in the KJV as proof that it is Jesus who is claiming to be the Alpha and Omega of verse 13. Since Jehovah is clearly Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8), they say, and Jesus is Alpha and Omega (Rev. 22:13), then Jesus IS Jehovah!

As you probably know, the original Bible writers didn't use any punctuation or capitalization and frequently ran the words of one speaker right into those of another speaker without any warning or indication. Eerdmans 1978 edition of Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, for example, warns Bible readers:

"The language of the MESSENGER frequently glides into that of the SENDER ..." and, "what a SERVANT says or does is ascribed to the MASTER." - "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation" - Preface.

There is another thing that helps show the originally-intended meaning here. Although it is very common that the words of one speaker slide right into those of another speaker (e.g., Is. 10:4, 7), it also happens that sometimes the writer identifies the new speaker. As we see in Daniel, for example, Daniel nearly always identifies himself as the new speaker when he uses the words "I, Daniel" whenever it might be confusing to the reader (especially after a different person has been speaking) - Dan. 7:15, 28; 8:15, 27; 12:5.

If we then examine Revelation (which is recognized as being similar to, patterned after, and frequently referring to, the Book of Daniel), we find that John also uses this technique. "I, John" identifies a new speaker in every instance John uses it: Rev. 1:9; 22:8. So Rev. 1:9 is merely the statement of a new speaker.

Now look again at Rev. 22:8-16.

John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in (:9). The angel apparently continues speaking in (:10). The angel may be still speaking in (:11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in (:12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John?

There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It's entirely a matter of translator's choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly.

So the NASB, JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the NKJV, NEB, REB, RSV, and NRSV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12.

Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 ("I am Alpha and Omega").

So the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, and NAB (1991 ed.) show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John's words. (The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.)

Then they all show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian NEB, RSV, NKJV, and NASB Bibles, you are saying John is Jesus! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

Remember, "I, John" indicated a new speaker in Revelation.

So Rev. 22:16 - "I, Jesus" also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement ("I am the Alpha and Omega") was made by someone else!

Even the KJV (and NKJV) translators have shown by their use of the word 'his' ('His' in the NKJV) in verse 14 that they didn't mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing "His Commandments" (not "My Commandments")! Therefore, the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young's Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible.

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title "Alpha and Omega" confirms this understanding.

"And He who sits on the throne said, `Behold, I am making all things new.' .... And He said to me, `It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.'" - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

"Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be `sons' of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his `brothers.' (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those `brothers' of Jesus are referred to as `sons of God [the Father].' (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)." - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

Furthermore, The only one "seated on the throne" in Rev. is the Father, Jehovah alone. (See, for example, Rev. 4 & 5 where the "Lion that is of the tribe of Judah," the lamb [the Son] approaches the one seated on the throne!)

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.
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I love how Christians vote down other christians because they have a different viewpoint about the Bible then them.  I could understand voting down athiests etc...but other Christians?  Sounds pharisaical.

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Many Christians don't consider JW beliefs Christian beliefs. That's what we are taught from children. We are also taught that Mormons are not following Christian teachings since they have additional books that they adhere to written by Joseph Smith than just the bible. The bible is to be our only authority. Can't knock it because JWS and Mormons are taught they believe the correct way as well from childhood. I study scriptures on my own, study at church, but I only will read the bible translations that are verified to be the most accurate translations by the Christian church because I am a Christian and adhere to Christian teachings if that explains anything. JW beliefs and Christian beliefs are not the same because we believe Jesus is equal to God the Father and the Holy Spirit. I did not neg anyone just so you know though. 

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41 minutes ago, Rmc10 said:

Many Christians don't consider JW beliefs Christian beliefs. That's what we are taught from children. We are also taught that Mormons are not following Christian teachings since they have additional books that they adhere to written by Joseph Smith than just the bible. The bible is to be our only authority. Can't knock it because JWS and Mormons are taught they believe the correct way as well from childhood. I study scriptures on my own, study at church, but I only will read the bible translations that are verified to be the most accurate translations by the Christian church because I am a Christian and adhere to Christian teachings if that explains anything. JW beliefs and Christian beliefs are not the same because we believe Jesus is equal to God the Father and the Holy Spirit. I did not neg anyone just so you know though. 

I was not one as a kid.  I became one later in life.  I agree, the bible is the only authority.  It is not just the belief about Jesus that is different.  No immortal soul, no hellfire, Christmas and HAlloween are pagan customs, Speaking in tongues is gibberish, living in a paradise Earth instead of all good people going to heaven etc.  I think everyone should look into their own beliefs and see if it lines up with the Bible and just basic common sense.  I find it funny that no one has wanted to discuss any of MY reasonings.  You did somewhat by saying the old testament things that God said are changed because of Jesus etc.

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I think it would be a never ending debate is all... Christians don't think that everyone who is good will go to heaven. We believe that people who follow Jesus's teachings and accept him as Lord and Savior of our lives will go to heaven. We believe that is the only way to heaven... but when you start studying scripture you realize that heaven isn't the final place for Christ followers and that we will ALL be living on the NEW earth with Jesus. This earth we are living on now will eventually be destroyed. Heaven is just what everyone thinks of for some reason. I guess the bible says our spirits will be in heaven (after we die) until the rapture or until after Jesus reigns on this earth for 1000 years and then the people on earth rebel and satan's followers are all destroyed and Satan is thrown in the abyss. It's been a while since I've read Revelations so please do your own research.... but ya. We don't believe just 144,000 people will get to be with God in the end. We believe that All Christ followers will. I can look up references to back up that belief but that will take a while.

Edited by Rmc10
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BUT you have to admit that holidays have pagan influences.  Wikipedia will tell you that.  Do you really think Jesus was born December 25th?  If not then why propulgate that untruth?  You brought up something I do want to address.  WHY does God have to destroy this Earth?  It is not perfect how he made it?

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I look at it this way. From reading the Bible it looks like everyone and everything can be corrupted except for God because he wasn't created. He is the only perfect being. Sin marred this earth and according to our beliefs Jesus was/is the only mediator between God and man and his perfection, life, death, and resurrection made certain people who believe and put trust in him be able to go into eternal paradise/bliss/heaven/ect... So this earth has been corrupted by sin and it will be destroyed because of that and all things will be made new again. The ones who choose Christ have been made new even though we are still prone to sinfulfill thoughts we can have power over them through the Holy Spirit and when we die we will be perfect like Christ only because of Christ/God so the bible is always big on renewal and even though he destroys this earth and anyone who sides with Satan (everyone will have a choice which side to choose as I believe in Armenianism not Calvinism), He will have a new earth for his saints to live that hasn't been marred by sin at all. It already seems to me this earth has been dying for some time anyways. Look at how many animals and creatures have gone extinct in the past millions of years. I feel we are living in the end times. Just my opinion though. 

 

About the holidays yes Christianity was mixed in with pagan beliefs as to try to make a bridge between secularism and Christianity. The main holiday that should be the biggest one for a Christian is Easter (Resurrection day) because we base our entire belief around Christ's resurrection but Christmas has become bigger here in the western world because of consumerism.

Edited by Rmc10

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4 hours ago, Rmc10 said:

I think it would be a never ending debate is all... Christians don't think that everyone who is good will go to heaven. We believe that people who follow Jesus's teachings and accept him as Lord and Savior of our lives will go to heaven. We believe that is the only way to heaven... but when you start studying scripture you realize that heaven isn't the final place for Christ followers and that we will ALL be living on the NEW earth with Jesus. This earth we are living on now will eventually be destroyed. Heaven is just what everyone thinks of for some reason. I guess the bible says our spirits will be in heaven (after we die) until the rapture or until after Jesus reigns on this earth for 1000 years and then the people on earth rebel and satan's followers are all destroyed and Satan is thrown in the abyss. It's been a while since I've read Revelations so please do your own research.... but ya. We don't believe just 144,000 people will get to be with God in the end. We believe that All Christ followers will. I can look up references to back up that belief but that will take a while.

Everything you said is correct Rmc. That's exactly what Christians who believe in the Bible as God's Holy Word believe. Or I should say many, because I know there is a lot of debate on Revelation. I am a pre-trib rapture believer. And when Jesus says "Come up hither" I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and I will be a complete Child of God in Spirit, Soul and Body. And I will "forever" be with my LORD JESUS. "Even so, Come LORD JESUS!"

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Going back to Botz belief about the Trinity or lack of evidence according to him in the bible, some Christians do not believe in the Trinity but they still believe Jesus is equal to God the Father. Apostolic Pentecostals believe the Holy Spirit is God's/Jesus's spirit and not an entity of it's own self. Other Pentecostals believe in the Trinity. Charismatics branches off of the Pentecostal church. They are what people think of when they think of the term "Holy Rollers". There are 3 branches of Christianity: Pentecostal Christians, Evangelical Christians, Catholic Christians/Orthodox Christians and each of these branches all bring something great to the table. Then like I said there are one of 2 camps when it comes to theology: Armenianism or Calvinism. These are some great things to study. I love learning about the different beliefs/traditions each one of these sects of Christianity has. I've been doing a lot of reading on that in my down time lately. 

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8 hours ago, Botzwana said:

I was not one as a kid.  I became one later in life.  I agree, the bible is the only authority.  It is not just the belief about Jesus that is different.  No immortal soul, no hellfire, Christmas and HAlloween are pagan customs, Speaking in tongues is gibberish, living in a paradise Earth instead of all good people going to heaven etc.  I think everyone should look into their own beliefs and see if it lines up with the Bible and just basic common sense.  I find it funny that no one has wanted to discuss any of MY reasonings.  You did somewhat by saying the old testament things that God said are changed because of Jesus etc.

I only know from a personal and experiential perspective that I live with a power outside myself that I rely on daily. I pray in tongues daily and see the results of it in ways that I would not if I did not speak in tongues. Things I would have no idea to pray for or about by praying in tongues I see answers to situations that I didn't before I began praying daily in tongues. On the jobs that I do, I hear HOLY SPIRIT's voice after I pray that points me to exactly the solution to the problem I am called out to solve, in many cases not knowing anything about the situation and at times following behind someone else's work having never been there before. And that is just work. Have you ever misplaced something or lost something, searched everywhere and couldn't find it? Well the first thing I do is ask HOLY SPIRIT to tell me where to look, then rather than run around looking, I sit down and wait for HIM to tell me. HE does, and I go right where HE tells me and I find the item. But more than that, I have worked with other techs who have lost or misplaced their tools and they have searched and searched. One example, was the time the guy I was working with misplaced his wire cutters and screwdriver in this 5 story building we were running cables in. When I found out he had been looking everywhere for them, I prayed in tongues, and HOLY SPIRIT told me, "Go to the third floor, the 2nd closet, and look under the top box, in the second box below the shelf behind the door." I went right to where HE told me and there were the guys tools. When I told him where I found them, he said they must have fallen out of his tool pouch when he was on the ladder and he never knew it because they were in a box that had nothing to do with what he was doing.  And I have so many life experiences like that, that would absolutely, if someone were to follow me around with a video camera people would think I was psychic or something. But I know it is HOLY SPIRIT my helper and comforter who leads me daily because I give my tongue over to him daily and HE prays through me about things I wouldn't even know to pray for, but HE knows, and the answers flow as if I knew what was going to happen. I know that I know the TRUTHS HOLY SPIRIT has taught me in GOD's Word, the understandings I have in my studies, and the wisdom HE has given me are right, and are real to the point that when I apply those truths in my daily life it reinforces for me the things that I have learned are true.  Again, I live with a power that I would never have if my relationship with Father God, JESUS my LORD and SAVIOUR, and HOLY SPIRIT wasn't what it is. Whether it be for healing for someone, or pray into someone's situation and receive the answer and then boldly tell them this is what the LORD is showing me. 

My brother texted me last week and said "We found a condo on the beach and one on the intercoastal. Both the same price, but the one on the intercoastal is larger, but we really want the one on the beach. It's on the 14th floor and has incredible views. We just sent the app in so pray it goes thru with no issues on the beach one. Either one would be awesome. But the beach one would be a dream come true." As he was telling me I was praying in tongues and heard HOLY SPIRIT tell me, "Tell him he is going to get his dream condo on the beach." When he finished texting me about it . I simply texted him back saying, "Amen. You're going to get it." I told him HOLY SPIRIT told me so. That was August 31st at 6:46pm. On Sept. 1st at 3:35 pm he texted me "We got the beach apartment."

So my daily life is a continuous reinforcement of what HOLY SPIRIT has taught me, my beliefs, my relationship and my friendship with the Triune GOD. JEHOVA, JESUS, and HOLY SPIRIT.

I do a lot of work in the islands, and I could tell you wonderful stories of what God has done for me there, and thru me there. Including the time I had an interaction with an angel.

So if you are not living with the supernatural power of God working through you and in your life, and are not able to impart or be a conduit of that miraculous power to others so that they too may receive the Goodness of God in their lives that will help them draw closer to HIM then it is time to get on your knees and ask God to open your spiritual eyes, ears and heart to have the kind of relationship that HE desires for you to have with HIM. JESUS told the Jews along the road that HE carried the cross on in :

 

Matthew 23:37,36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together,as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.… 

 

As believers we all have a choice. You can choose to be gathered under HIS wing and do what HE says in Jeremiah 33:3 "2"Thus says the LORD who made the earth, the LORD who formed it to establish it, the LORD is His name, 3Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.' or you can choose to be one like in 2nd Timothy 3:7 "7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. ".

 

And thus, never really experience the fullness of all that God desires for you in this life.

 

May God bless you always.

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