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37 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Here is another one. ...IF there was a Trinity.....How come noone ever told the jews?  The jews in the Bible have always said God is one.  Not three.  Hell, go to your local synagogue today...SURELY jews would know the Hebrew scriptures would they not?  How come at NO synagogue do they worship a Triune God?  Hmm.....It has never or ever been in the jewish religion to EVER think that God is three persons.

This is a pretty good answer to your question.....The important thing to know is that God continually revealed Himself at different stages to the Jewish people and is even still revealing Himself all the way to the Book of Revelation and after Armageddon when the LORD says, "Then you will look at me and weep and wail for the One you have pierced..."

Zechariah 12:10

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

 

So the Jews are still finding out who their God is and what His true nature is.  Remember they did not recognize their Messiah when HE came the first time, but the Second Time they will.

 

Anyway here is one answer along with the one I just gave you.

 

FEBRUARY 18, 2009

Did the Old Testament Jews Believe In a Triune God?


The following is an edited transcript of the audio.

Did the Old Testament Jews believe in a triune God?

Not with clarity.

I think we need the category of progressive revelation, which states that stage by stage in redemptive history, greater and greater clarity as to the nature and activity of God comes.

And with that category, no, I don't think that Old Testament Jews were clear about the nature of God in the way that we are clear with the incarnation and the teaching about the Holy Spirit that comes with Jesus.

However, having said that, I want to be careful not to deny that they believed in the triune God. Because they believed in the God of Jesus Christ. They believed in the true, living God as he was being revealed in special redemptive history, and that God was the triune God.

So they believed in the God who is the triune God. And there were hints along the way, such as, "Let us create man in our image" (Genesis 1:26). I know there are various ways to take that text—like as a royal plural or something—but it is still interesting. It's going to be provocative of a plurality in God.

And then the Spirit of God was real. And then there began to be a sense that the Messiah who was to come is no ordinary, mere man. There's more to it than that.

This is why Jesus, I think, made Psalm 110:1 his favorite psalm. He referred to it over and over and over again: "Whose son is the Messiah? And whose Lord is the Messiah?" And he drew out that he was more than a mere man.

So, Yes, they believed in the triune God. But, No, they did not have clarity that he was a triune God. That came progressively and with greatest clarity for us in the New Testament.

John Piper (@JohnPiper) is founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary. For 33 years, he served as pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is author of more than 50 books, including Reading the Bible Supernaturally.
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1 hour ago, Botzwana said:

Here is another one. ...IF there was a Trinity.....How come noone ever told the jews?  The jews in the Bible have always said God is one.  Not three.  Hell, go to your local synagogue today...SURELY jews would know the Hebrew scriptures would they not?  How come at NO synagogue do they worship a Triune God?  Hmm.....It has never or ever been in the jewish religion to EVER think that God is three persons.

Another good article that explains the Jews did believe in a Triune God

 

http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html

 

The  Trinity  Is  Jewish

torah scroll

By Rachmiel Frydland

   Most modern Jewish people seem to have made their "peace" with Jesus of Nazareth.  Some consider Him to be a great, Jew, or even the greatest Jew who ever lived. Some of our Jewish leaders, as Dr.Heinrich Graetz and Dr. Joseph Klausner, compliment Him on His teaching. Some admire His parables and purity, as Moses Montefiore; and Some as Sholem Asch and others, even consider Him to be  the Messiah of the Gentiles. Today we often meet Jewish people who acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah for Jew and Gentile alike; and some are even willing to share these convictions with other Jewish  people. What then holds such Jewish people back from joining with us and accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?  

   The hindrance some have expressed to the writer of this article is the reluctance to accept the fact that Jesus is supernatural. Moreover, from childhood we have been inculcated with Maimonides' Thirteen  Principles  one of which is:

I firmly believe that the Creator, blessed be his name, is One: that there is no oneness in any form like his; & that he alone was, is, & ever will be our God.

   We have been thus brought up to think that if we believe that God is One, then this idea excludes any  idea of God manifesting Himself through Jesus the Messiah. This Christian concept of God's triunity seemed to us to be a Gentile and pagan idea. NOT SO! Christians, as well as Jewish people, must believe in One God. There is no other. The God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob is the God of the Jewish people and of the Christians. The Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament are authoritative for the Jew and for the Christian. In them is found the confession that

 is authoritative for all of us.

Hear. O Israel. the LORD our God, the LORD IS ONE. Deuteronomy 6:4

TRIUNITY IN TANAKH (Old Testament)

   While it is universally admitted by both Jews and Christians that God is One and that there is no one beside Him, we are also compelled to acknowledge that the triunity of God is clearly taught in the Torah, the Prophets, and in the Writings --- that is in the whole Tanakh, the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament, & the New Testament. Not only in the Tanakh but also in the Talmudical & Rabbinical writings this concept is well known. Space does not permit us to present proofs from all the sources in this short article. Here we present just a few challenging proofs:

        THE TORAH:   When God (Elohim) create the world He wanted to make absolutely clear to His creation that He is not some abstract mathematical unitarian principle with no analogy in all creation, as some of our philosophers tried to present Him under Aristotelian influence. Instead we read in the holy  Torah these words:

And (Elohim) said. Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
& over all the earth.
 Genesis 1:26

Elohim made man, a being composed of a triunity --- body, soul and spirit, in the image of God; 
and  to make this more clear God reveals Himself in His plural form of Elohim and says,

"Let us make man."

   Even those of our rabbis who do not accept as yet the triunity of God, realize that this verse is clear support for such teaching. Thus in Midrash Rabbah on Genesis we find the following comments on the verse: Rabbi Samuel bar Nahman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah; writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this Verse which says, "And Elohim said let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, Master of the Universe why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the triunity of God). God answered Moses, You write and whoever wants to err let him err. 

   But surely God did not make Moses to write the whole Scriptures in order to make people err. but rather to show them the right way and the right revelation, namely that the One God is a triune God who  calls Himself Elohim and who says. Let us make man. 

        THE PROPHETS:  There are many Scripture verses which show clearly that God manifested Himself also as the Word by which He created heaven and earth and by which He leads and directs creation. He also manifested Himself as the RuakhHakodesh, the Holy Spirit, who inspired the prophets of God and who did mighty miracles through the great judges of Israel, Gideon, Samson, and David. We want to point out one Scripture which compels us to admit the triunity of God. Isaiah the prophet speaks in the   name of God and says:

Come near unto me. hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time that it was,theream I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 48:16

 

   Here God calls the people to come to Him, but He is sent by the Lord GOD and His Spirit. Exactly the same teaching as we have found in the Torah. we find also in the teachings of God's prophets. How else can it be? The same God who commanded Moses to manifest His triunitarian nature commands also the Hebrew Prophets to do the same.   

 

        THE WRITINGS: Very clearly we find the same teaching about God in the Psalms and in the other writings of the Hebrew Scriptures. We read in Psalm 2 where the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, speaks through David and says:

I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son:

 this day have I begotten thee. Psalm 2:7

   Here is the Holy Spirit speaking through David and instructing David, that the LORD, which is in Hebrew the ineffable name of Jehovah (which we pronounce as Adonai, has a Son who is begotten of God in a most supernatural way.  Maybe King David himself did not well understand the words that he was commanded to write by the Holy Spirit; but as Moses and Isaiah, he obeyed. Be wrote this down for us so that there be no misunderstanding. God who is almighty manifests Himself as a triunity, leaving us no doubt as to His nature.

IS TRINITY JEWISH?

   But is such a concept Jewish? Is it not some Gentile or pagan concept that has somehow crept into our Holy Scriptures as some extreme liberalists would like to tell us?  No, this was and still is a Jewish conception of God creating and dealing with His creation and His people Israel in a triune way. This quotation bears it out: Exodus 19 starts with the words, "In the third month." This is explained by the words of Proverbs 22:20, "Have I not written to thee excellent (Hebrew, threefold) things in counsels and knowledge." On this Rabbi Joshua bar Nehemiah said that this is the Torah whose letters are threefold, alf, bet, g(i)ml, and everything is a Trinity: The Torah is Trinitarian, for it is composed of the Torah, the  Prophets, and the Writings. The Mishna(talmudical learning) is a trinity composed of Talmud (learning) halakhot (daily Jewish laws) and haggadot (historical items). The mediator consisted of a trinity of Miriam, Moses, & Aaron. Prayers are a trinity of morning, afternoon, and evening prayers. Israel is a trinity consisting of priests, Levites and Israelites. The name Moses in Hebrew consists of three letters.  He is of the tribe of Levi, which again is in the   Hebrew three letters. from the seed of the Patriarchs who  are a trinity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; in the third month which is Sivan, after Nisan & Iyar on  mount Sin whose letters are three as it is written. "And they rested in the wilderness of Sin.".(Midrash  Tanhuma on Exodus 19)

   If, according to our rabbis', God has made everything and arranged everything in a Trinitarian way.  then it must also be Jewish and biblical to know that God, Himself is a Trinity. This He is and has manifested Himself as the Savior, Messiah, and Son of God in the person of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah.  He then sent down the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, on the Disciples in the third month, of the Feast of Shavuot, the feast of perfection, celebrated after counting seven times seven.

TRINITY AND COMMON SENSE

   But. can three be one?  Does not common sense rebel against such a statement? Must we not state categorically that God is either One or Three? Not so. As a matter of fact everything you come in contact with is not a mathematical concept of one, but usually an item composed of a trinity. The ancient Greek philosopher reasoned out the theory of atoms by simply watching a black cow, eating green grass, and then giving white milk. All things are composed of millions and billions of atoms; but the atom itself is a trinity of a proton, electron and nucleus. Perhaps we could best express it in the words of Dr. Henry Heydt:

   In Romans 1:20 Paul uses the creation of the cosmos as demonstrating this Godhead (theiotes]. The universe ... is an absolute triunity of space, time, and matter. Each of these in turn is an absolute triunity. Space consists of length, breadth, and depth or height: time is future, present, and past; matter is energy, motion, and phenomena. Here we have not merely an illustration of three in one --- as in the case of light, heat, and ultra-violet rays of the sunbeam, or the manifestation of H2O as liquid, ice, and  steam --- but an  absolute trinity composed of three absolute triunities.

WHAT IS THE MEANING TO YOU ?

   We now have only to answer the question. "What does it all matter?"  The answer is that it matters very much. It proves the truth of God's Word. The most important thing is, what the Jewish Messiah Jesus  (Yeshua) said, "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth  in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

   Do you want peace in your heart &  peace with your  Creator?  Receive this gift of God; confess your sins and believe in God's Son, the Korban (sacrifice) for  your sins. Then you will be saved & have perfect peace in your heart. "But as many as received him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12)       

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9 minutes ago, Botzwana said:

Just because certain objects are truine...Solid liquid or gas...that has nothing to do wheather God is truine or not.  Let´s take wood.  You can make a boat, a house, a carving, use it as firewood, and many other uses for it.  Probably 50 one could think of.  Does that mean God is 50 gods JUST because wood can do all of these things?  No.  Not anymore than an egg having a shell, white and yellow make God a truine God because of that.

 

Matthew 28:18-20  (NASB)

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

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Revelation 1:8 (NASB)

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

Revelation 21:5-7 (NASB)

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

 

Revelation 22:13  (NASB)

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

In the first three passages, the Alpha and the Omega is Jehovah God right?  Now see below:

 

Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

 

How did the First and last die?  When did God die?

 

Philippians 2:5-11  (NASB)

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

"Paul is telling us that though Jesus Christ is eternally God by nature, He did not cling to His prerogative as God's equal, but chose to  humble Himself and take on human flesh.  Christ did not give up His divine nature. But while on earth Jesus Christ chose to temporarily self-impose limitations upon His divine attributes.

 

While on earth, Jesus Christ chose not to be omniscient.  He chose not to be omnipotent, and He chose rather to live as a man and to submit himself fully to the will of the Father on earth.  When He died on the cross He was the perfect sacrifice, the infinite sacrifice, the eternal lamb of God who shed His blood once for all times for the remission of our sins. "

("Fast Facts on False Teachings", Ron Carlson & Ed Decker, pg 132)

 

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Here is a quote from another Christian. Jesus never said for us to not worship him.

 

"I can think of: 
John 9:38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him 
Mark 5:6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 
Matthew 15:25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 
Matthew 2:11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 

As you point out, it is clear that people worshipped Jesus. I can find nothing that says otherwise 

I can also think that others said not to worship men, demonstrating that it was not a common practice to anyone but God.... 
Acts 10:25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man." 


Angels too 
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

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In Numbers back in that time noone had seen God yet because Jesus had not yet been born. The only people to have been close enough to even talk to him were Moses, Abraham, and Jacob wrestled with an angel. When Jesus was born that was the first time any man had seen God. Just my 2 cents. Gotta go to sleep. Everyone have a good night. ♡

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(I was tired last night because it was around midnight by the way :) ) So I did some studying this morning because I am interested in this convo.. this is what I found and it's okay to copy and laste if you fully agree with the statement. It was actually John who wrote that noone has seen God byt many people have seen God in various forms just not in His full glory except John in Revelations. I will tell you that there are smarter people than me that are schooled in knowing God's word better. I'm just average when it comes to that but what I said still has some merit even though I wrote the wrong book (for some reason I thought someone say that verse was written in Numbers) because up until Jesus was born noone had yet seen God. Even Adam and Eve never SAW God even though they enjoyed his prescence. They heard him speak but that was it. This is someone else's writings below but it's a good explanation. 

 

"To see Christ is to see the Father, but is this to see the Father “fully”? I think not. In His incarnation, our Lord’s full glory was “veiled,” with sneak previews like the transfiguration. But when John saw our Lord glorified in Revelation 1, he fell before Him as a dead man (by the way, was this not in a vision? Rev. 1:9-17). It is this John who has said that he “saw the Lord” “with his own eyes” (along with the others) in 1 John 1:1-2. And yet in the same book, he writes,

“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2, NKJV).

It seems to me that there are at least two elements involved in man’s not being able to see God. The first is that God is spirit, and can’t be seen apart from divine enablement (this was true even of the angels (2 Kings 6:17). Thus, what men saw of God must have been a kind of partial manifestation of God. When our Lord came to the earth, men did see God manifested in human flesh, but still not in the full radiance of His glory, as John seems to indicate in 1 John 3:2."

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Greetings to all who are participating in this discussion.  Must say it reminds me of the book of Job when Job's friends try to counsel him on his wrongdoing.  In the end, as you know, God shows up and tells them all He is not impressed.  This may be fun for you all, but I'm pretty sure no one is going to change their opinion.

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Botz I'm not trying to change your mind because we are both probably at the age where our minds are already made up on many a thing but thank you for stating what you believe because it was very informative and gave me a good perspective on what (even though you are not JW anymore) JWS believe. I was always curious about it. I still believe Jesus is part of the Trinity but like I've said before we are still all entitled to our own beliefs. ♡ Shedegal we were thinking on the same lines. I just really was curious about the different belief since I know quite a few JWS myself. I've talked to a few of them about a few things but I usually don't talk to anyone who knocks on my door. Not personal enough for me to feel comfortable talking about such things. 

Edited by Rmc10
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11 hours ago, Markinsa said:

@Botzwana I only quoted from a paperback book and I gave the source I didn't copy from a website. But good redirect on your part. Please answer my question from my previous post.

Markinsa you are spot on with all of your posts. Great verses, not half verses or small sections of verses to try and prove your point. Straight from the Word which is where we get our knowledge and understanding through the "Ruach Hakodesh". To take away the Diety of Jesus Christ and believe that Holy Spirit is not a person brings in to question a person's salvation. Because only a Holy God can die for an unholy mankind. And as your verses clearly stated above, Yes. The day Christ died was the day God died. But HE did not stay dead because HE has the power over sin and death, otherwise we would all be lost to eternal damnation. But that is between each person and Christ Jesus how HE is going to handle those that do not believe HE is God. I believe HE is love and would forgive the person. 

Great stuff though. Stay strong in the LORD and Spirit of his might. Keep taking HIS Kingdom by force because the enemy will never relent until his time is up.

God bless.

 

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Many Christians don't consider JW beliefs Christian beliefs. That's what we are taught from children. We are also taught that Mormons are not following Christian teachings since they have additional books that they adhere to written by Joseph Smith than just the bible. The bible is to be our only authority. Can't knock it because JWS and Mormons are taught they believe the correct way as well from childhood. I study scriptures on my own, study at church, but I only will read the bible translations that are verified to be the most accurate translations by the Christian church because I am a Christian and adhere to Christian teachings if that explains anything. JW beliefs and Christian beliefs are not the same because we believe Jesus is equal to God the Father and the Holy Spirit. I did not neg anyone just so you know though. 

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I think it would be a never ending debate is all... Christians don't think that everyone who is good will go to heaven. We believe that people who follow Jesus's teachings and accept him as Lord and Savior of our lives will go to heaven. We believe that is the only way to heaven... but when you start studying scripture you realize that heaven isn't the final place for Christ followers and that we will ALL be living on the NEW earth with Jesus. This earth we are living on now will eventually be destroyed. Heaven is just what everyone thinks of for some reason. I guess the bible says our spirits will be in heaven (after we die) until the rapture or until after Jesus reigns on this earth for 1000 years and then the people on earth rebel and satan's followers are all destroyed and Satan is thrown in the abyss. It's been a while since I've read Revelations so please do your own research.... but ya. We don't believe just 144,000 people will get to be with God in the end. We believe that All Christ followers will. I can look up references to back up that belief but that will take a while.

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I look at it this way. From reading the Bible it looks like everyone and everything can be corrupted except for God because he wasn't created. He is the only perfect being. Sin marred this earth and according to our beliefs Jesus was/is the only mediator between God and man and his perfection, life, death, and resurrection made certain people who believe and put trust in him be able to go into eternal paradise/bliss/heaven/ect... So this earth has been corrupted by sin and it will be destroyed because of that and all things will be made new again. The ones who choose Christ have been made new even though we are still prone to sinfulfill thoughts we can have power over them through the Holy Spirit and when we die we will be perfect like Christ only because of Christ/God so the bible is always big on renewal and even though he destroys this earth and anyone who sides with Satan (everyone will have a choice which side to choose as I believe in Armenianism not Calvinism), He will have a new earth for his saints to live that hasn't been marred by sin at all. It already seems to me this earth has been dying for some time anyways. Look at how many animals and creatures have gone extinct in the past millions of years. I feel we are living in the end times. Just my opinion though. 

 

About the holidays yes Christianity was mixed in with pagan beliefs as to try to make a bridge between secularism and Christianity. The main holiday that should be the biggest one for a Christian is Easter (Resurrection day) because we base our entire belief around Christ's resurrection but Christmas has become bigger here in the western world because of consumerism.

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4 hours ago, Rmc10 said:

I think it would be a never ending debate is all... Christians don't think that everyone who is good will go to heaven. We believe that people who follow Jesus's teachings and accept him as Lord and Savior of our lives will go to heaven. We believe that is the only way to heaven... but when you start studying scripture you realize that heaven isn't the final place for Christ followers and that we will ALL be living on the NEW earth with Jesus. This earth we are living on now will eventually be destroyed. Heaven is just what everyone thinks of for some reason. I guess the bible says our spirits will be in heaven (after we die) until the rapture or until after Jesus reigns on this earth for 1000 years and then the people on earth rebel and satan's followers are all destroyed and Satan is thrown in the abyss. It's been a while since I've read Revelations so please do your own research.... but ya. We don't believe just 144,000 people will get to be with God in the end. We believe that All Christ followers will. I can look up references to back up that belief but that will take a while.

Everything you said is correct Rmc. That's exactly what Christians who believe in the Bible as God's Holy Word believe. Or I should say many, because I know there is a lot of debate on Revelation. I am a pre-trib rapture believer. And when Jesus says "Come up hither" I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and I will be a complete Child of God in Spirit, Soul and Body. And I will "forever" be with my LORD JESUS. "Even so, Come LORD JESUS!"

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Going back to Botz belief about the Trinity or lack of evidence according to him in the bible, some Christians do not believe in the Trinity but they still believe Jesus is equal to God the Father. Apostolic Pentecostals believe the Holy Spirit is God's/Jesus's spirit and not an entity of it's own self. Other Pentecostals believe in the Trinity. Charismatics branches off of the Pentecostal church. They are what people think of when they think of the term "Holy Rollers". There are 3 branches of Christianity: Pentecostal Christians, Evangelical Christians, Catholic Christians/Orthodox Christians and each of these branches all bring something great to the table. Then like I said there are one of 2 camps when it comes to theology: Armenianism or Calvinism. These are some great things to study. I love learning about the different beliefs/traditions each one of these sects of Christianity has. I've been doing a lot of reading on that in my down time lately. 

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8 hours ago, Botzwana said:

I was not one as a kid.  I became one later in life.  I agree, the bible is the only authority.  It is not just the belief about Jesus that is different.  No immortal soul, no hellfire, Christmas and HAlloween are pagan customs, Speaking in tongues is gibberish, living in a paradise Earth instead of all good people going to heaven etc.  I think everyone should look into their own beliefs and see if it lines up with the Bible and just basic common sense.  I find it funny that no one has wanted to discuss any of MY reasonings.  You did somewhat by saying the old testament things that God said are changed because of Jesus etc.

I only know from a personal and experiential perspective that I live with a power outside myself that I rely on daily. I pray in tongues daily and see the results of it in ways that I would not if I did not speak in tongues. Things I would have no idea to pray for or about by praying in tongues I see answers to situations that I didn't before I began praying daily in tongues. On the jobs that I do, I hear HOLY SPIRIT's voice after I pray that points me to exactly the solution to the problem I am called out to solve, in many cases not knowing anything about the situation and at times following behind someone else's work having never been there before. And that is just work. Have you ever misplaced something or lost something, searched everywhere and couldn't find it? Well the first thing I do is ask HOLY SPIRIT to tell me where to look, then rather than run around looking, I sit down and wait for HIM to tell me. HE does, and I go right where HE tells me and I find the item. But more than that, I have worked with other techs who have lost or misplaced their tools and they have searched and searched. One example, was the time the guy I was working with misplaced his wire cutters and screwdriver in this 5 story building we were running cables in. When I found out he had been looking everywhere for them, I prayed in tongues, and HOLY SPIRIT told me, "Go to the third floor, the 2nd closet, and look under the top box, in the second box below the shelf behind the door." I went right to where HE told me and there were the guys tools. When I told him where I found them, he said they must have fallen out of his tool pouch when he was on the ladder and he never knew it because they were in a box that had nothing to do with what he was doing.  And I have so many life experiences like that, that would absolutely, if someone were to follow me around with a video camera people would think I was psychic or something. But I know it is HOLY SPIRIT my helper and comforter who leads me daily because I give my tongue over to him daily and HE prays through me about things I wouldn't even know to pray for, but HE knows, and the answers flow as if I knew what was going to happen. I know that I know the TRUTHS HOLY SPIRIT has taught me in GOD's Word, the understandings I have in my studies, and the wisdom HE has given me are right, and are real to the point that when I apply those truths in my daily life it reinforces for me the things that I have learned are true.  Again, I live with a power that I would never have if my relationship with Father God, JESUS my LORD and SAVIOUR, and HOLY SPIRIT wasn't what it is. Whether it be for healing for someone, or pray into someone's situation and receive the answer and then boldly tell them this is what the LORD is showing me. 

My brother texted me last week and said "We found a condo on the beach and one on the intercoastal. Both the same price, but the one on the intercoastal is larger, but we really want the one on the beach. It's on the 14th floor and has incredible views. We just sent the app in so pray it goes thru with no issues on the beach one. Either one would be awesome. But the beach one would be a dream come true." As he was telling me I was praying in tongues and heard HOLY SPIRIT tell me, "Tell him he is going to get his dream condo on the beach." When he finished texting me about it . I simply texted him back saying, "Amen. You're going to get it." I told him HOLY SPIRIT told me so. That was August 31st at 6:46pm. On Sept. 1st at 3:35 pm he texted me "We got the beach apartment."

So my daily life is a continuous reinforcement of what HOLY SPIRIT has taught me, my beliefs, my relationship and my friendship with the Triune GOD. JEHOVA, JESUS, and HOLY SPIRIT.

I do a lot of work in the islands, and I could tell you wonderful stories of what God has done for me there, and thru me there. Including the time I had an interaction with an angel.

So if you are not living with the supernatural power of God working through you and in your life, and are not able to impart or be a conduit of that miraculous power to others so that they too may receive the Goodness of God in their lives that will help them draw closer to HIM then it is time to get on your knees and ask God to open your spiritual eyes, ears and heart to have the kind of relationship that HE desires for you to have with HIM. JESUS told the Jews along the road that HE carried the cross on in :

 

Matthew 23:37,36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together,as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.… 

 

As believers we all have a choice. You can choose to be gathered under HIS wing and do what HE says in Jeremiah 33:3 "2"Thus says the LORD who made the earth, the LORD who formed it to establish it, the LORD is His name, 3Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.' or you can choose to be one like in 2nd Timothy 3:7 "7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. ".

 

And thus, never really experience the fullness of all that God desires for you in this life.

 

May God bless you always.

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13 hours ago, gulab said:

Keylime or Navira has God given either of you any explanation as to why the RV didn't occur this August?  Is it maybe because the year is off?  I'm really curious and would like to know if either of you have been given clarification.  Thanks 

Hi Gulab. For me, I never knew what year, only that I heard August. I thought because it was Jubilee and all the different signs this year was ripe for the RV. Now I look towards next August.Or maybe it has changed and it isn't August anymore but it is Sept. But I have not been given an explanation. If it happens next August, then I know it just wasnt time.  At this point, I can only hope it is no longer August and we are close. I started this thread because, like you, I wanted to hear if anyone else had any insight. And I have really enjoyed the back and forth, the hopefulness, the openness to discuss spiritual things in regards to not only the RV but our own lives.  Good stuff.  In the end, I do believe this is going to happen and when it does, oh man, what a life changer it is going to be. 

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