Vatican Police find drugs and more

[Fly]

LGD said; Your statement ,"they are not good", sounds a lot like a blanket view of all Catholics. And that is not fair. You know full well that any and all religious organizations, and pretty much any other collection of people will always have issues. It's just what happens when humans come together. 

I myself am Catholic, and very Orthodox in my  belief, but I can assure you that like all the Catholic's that I know I am appalled at this news.  For the most part people of all faiths just want to worship God and try as they might live up to his will. But alas we all fall from time to time. As our Blessed Lord once said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". 

 

The same thing Christendom has been saying for years, and what improvements have been seen by supporting such a spiritual sick attitude?

Just because it's not fair by your stranded doesn't make it unfair by God's; the warnings made clear are found in the bible.

 

"And he [God] did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people." (2Peter 2:5)

There was another aspect to the work that might have been even more challenging than ark-building. The Bible tells us that Noah was “a preacher of righteousness.” (2 Peter 2:5.) So he courageously took the lead in trying to warn the people of that wicked, godless society about the destruction that was heading their way. How did they respond? Jesus Christ later recalled that time, saying that those people “took no note.” He said that they were so caught up in the affairs of daily life—eating, drinking, and marrying—that they paid no heed to Noah. (Read Matt. 24:37-39) compare Mat 24:14- And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

   

Mat 7:15-27―“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.” 

 

 

Do All Religions Lead to the Same God? https://wol.jw.o/rgen/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009403

 

Flee From “Babylon the Great”

Consider how the Bible book of Revelation describes false religion. It is portrayed as a drunken prostitute who has power over many kingdoms and their peoples. This figurative woman commits fornication with many kings and is drunk with the blood of God’s true worshippers. (Revelation 17:1, 2, 6, 18) She has a name written on her forehead that matches her filthy and repulsive conduct. The name is “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.”—Revelation 17:5.

The Scriptural description of Babylon the Great fits the world’s collective body of false religion. Although the thousands of religions are not formally united as one world organization, they are inseparably joined in purpose and deed. As depicted by the immoral woman in Revelation, false religion has tremendous influence over governments. Resembling a woman not faithful to her marriage vows, false religion has prostituted herself by forming alliances with one political power after another. “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God?” wrote the disciple James. “Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”—James 4:4.

 This mixing of false religion with the governments has resulted in much human suffering. African political analyst Dr. Xolela Mangcu observed that “world history is littered with examples of mass killings caused by linking religion and politics.” One newspaper recently stated: “The bloodiest and most dangerous disputes today . . . are wrapped in religion.” The lives of millions have been snuffed out in religiously supported conflicts. Babylon the Great has even persecuted and killed God’s true servants, becoming drunk with their blood, as it were.—Revelation 18:24.

 That Jehovah hates false worship is clearly seen from what happens to Babylon the Great. Revelation 17:16 states: “The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.” First, a huge beast mauls her to death and eats up her fleshy parts. Then, whatever remains of her is completely burned. Correspondingly, soon the world governments will take such action against false religion. God will make it happen. (Revelation 17:17) Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, is doomed to destruction. “She will never be found again.”—Revelation 18:21.

What position should true worshippers take regarding Babylon the Great? In no uncertain terms, the Bible commands: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.” (Revelation 18:4) Those who want to be spared must get out of false religion before it is too late. When on earth, Jesus Christ foretold that in the last days, many would merely claim to follow him. (Matthew 24:3-5) To such ones, he says: “I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23) The now enthroned King, Jesus Christ, has nothing to do with false religion.

 

Before I became one of JW’s I never heard anyone or the churches warning me to flee from Babylon (word empire of false religion), and sense I’ve been one of JW’s I have never seen another organization other than Jehovah’s Witnesses sounding out the warning to get out of Babylon, even though the teaching is clearly in God’s massage to all mankind.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Fly

[Muleslayer]

Ok fly. What country is Babylon?

[Fly]

On 7/10/2017 at 9:00 PM, Muleslayer said:

Ok fly. What country is Babylon?

“Babylon the Great”

“Granted that Bible prophecies were fulfilled in the past,” you might say, “what does that have to do with today?”

For one thing, there are still many things in the world today that originated in ancient Babylon. Take astrology:

“Astrology was based upon two Babylonic ideas: the zodiac, and the divinity of the heavenly bodies. . . . The Babylonians credited the planets with the influences that one would expect of their respective deities.”—Great Cities of the Ancient World, L. Sprague De Camp, p. 150.

Did you realize that such “modern” ideas as trial marriage and easy divorce were well known in Babylon? In the realm of politics, the notion of the divine right of kings has been traced to her. “It is hardly coincidence that British monarchs today go through coronation ceremonies so reminiscent of those of Mesopotamia.”—Cradle of Civilization, p. 160.

But above all, Babylon was a religious empire. Remains of over 50 religious temples have been found in her ruins. Her influence on the rest of the ancient world, and, hence, the modern world, was great.

“Mesopotamia became a cultural centre from which were propagated cosmological, mythological and scientific conceptions.”—Ancient Semitic Civilizations, p. 57.

Religious conceptions that got their start in Babylon include the idea of a trinity of gods, based on the Babylonian “supreme triad” of Anu, Enlil and Enki. The notion of the immortal soul was spread abroad from Babylon. Many modern religious rituals began there, just as did political rituals such as the British coronation.

If you are a religious person, it may surprise you to learn that much of what modern churches teach and do has been derived from ancient Babylon. Even if you are not religious, you may find yourself involved in political matters influenced by Babylon, or in such Babylonian exports as astrology. Should this concern you?

Yes, because Jehovah God’s hostility to Babylonian philosophy and religion did not end with the destruction of the city of Babylon. That is why the Bible book of Revelation speaks of a worldwide religious system founded on the ideas of ancient Babylon, and symbolically called “Babylon the Great.” (Rev. 17:3-6; 18:21-24) The book of Revelation includes prophecies about the destruction of Babylon the Great that will come true just as surely as did the Bible prophecies regarding the ancient city of Babylon. The Bible’s counsel is: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.” (Rev. 18:4)

 

Babylon’s Record—Ancient and Modern

When Noah’s great-grandson Nimrod started to become a mighty one in the earth and set himself up as “a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah,” the beginning of his kingdom was at Babel, Babylon. It was at Babel that men, in defiance of Jehovah, decided to make a celebrated name for themselves by building a city with a religious tower. This was an apostasy, a falling away from the worship of Noah’s God, a rebellion against Jehovah’s sovereignty. But their building program resulted in dismal failure. Jehovah came down and confused their language. No longer able to communicate with one another, they divided off according to language groups and were scattered from Babel “over all the surface of the earth.” (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:1-9) Their false religion went with them. It became a world empire of false religion, mystic “Babylon the Great.”

The common origin of the world’s religions is plain to see. There are so many similarities! For example, ancient Babylon featured the worship of Semiramis and her infant Nimrod, so similar to the worship of Madonna and child in apostate Christianity. In his book “Ancient Pagan and Modern Christian Symbolism,” Thomas Inman says of mother-and-child images: “Such groups are as common in India as in Italy, in pagan temples as in Christian churches. The idea of the mother and child is pictured in every ancient country of whose art any remains exist.”

The Roman Catholic cardinal John Henry Newman, in his “Essay on the Development of Christian doctrine,” wrote of many such practices and doctrines, saying that they “are all of pagan origin” and that they are “sanctified by their adoption into the church.” But the latter is not so! By embracing Babylonish beliefs and ceremonies, modern-day Catholicism and Protestantism, along with Judaism, have added no holiness or sanctity to false religious practices and doctrines. Rather, they have identified themselves as daughter organizations of “Babylon the Great.”—Rev. 17:5.

These “daughter” religions have shared prominently on both sides in the crusades and other sectarian wars of history. The two world wars of modern times got started between so-called “Christian” nations, while Shintoists and Buddhists also became deeply involved. On both sides, the religious clergy contributed to whipping up the war fever. Rather than represent the ‘God of love,’ the world empire of false religion has always been a leading fomenter of hatred. To this day, Catholics and Protestants fight one another in Northern Ireland. Religion lies behind much of the violence in the Middle East.

However, Babylon the Great is most reprehensible for what is described at Revelation 17:6. Here we read: “I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.” Those words have had tragic fulfillment, such as in the persecutions of first-century Christians, in the Inquisitions of the Dark Ages and in Catholic Hitler’s modern-day violent suppression of Jehovah’s Witnesses! Will the ‘God of love’ avenge this bloodguilt? Most certainly he will!

 

“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. ¹⁰ Let your Kingdom come. (Mat 6:9b,10a)

‘I will certainly sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you profaned among them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes. (Ezekiel 36:23)

OK, now you tell me.

[MyLadiesDaddy]

On 7/10/2017 at 9:28 PM, Fly said:

The same thing Christendom has been saying for years, and what improvements have been seen by supporting such a spiritual sick attitude?

Just because it's not fair by your stranded doesn't make it unfair by God's; the warnings made clear are found in the bible.

You may insult me all you like, the Lord recompense you for your efforts. It is not I that judge you, it is God.  

1 hour ago, Fly said:

By embracing Babylonish beliefs and ceremonies, modern-day Catholicism and Protestantism, along with Judaism, have added no holiness or sanctity to false religious practices and doctrines. Rather, they have identified themselves as daughter organizations of “Babylon the Great.”—Rev. 17:5.

You constantly make your point with your incessantly long post which are nothing more than cut and paste from your own doctrinal beliefs. So much so that I wonder from time to time if you even know what you believe. Your doctrines make the judgment call against all people of faith whilst you constantly refuse to state what faith it is that you are coming from. No worries though I know a Jehova Witness when I read one. So I ask you, if the doctrine you bring is so right whilst everything else is false teaching then why all the deception? Why all the subterfuge concerning who and what it is that you really believe? 

 

I find it interesting that you quote from 2nd Peter at the same time that the Lord has been showing me what Peter was saying to the future church. I know that the demons also know what it is that God is showing me. And that in their like deception they will use all the tools they have and the people they control in their attempt to derail me from the truth of God. But alas the demonic deception is lost in the realm of the spiritual because of John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I openly claim that my faith is Orthodox whist you deceptively make no claim to any faith. 

I never judge any man, whist you openly condemn all men to hell.  

I forever preach { as Noah did I might add } the truth of a loving God and his forgiveness for all that would simply receive his love and forgiveness. 

You preach damnation to everyone that is not of the 144,000.

That is how I know what voice it is that I listen to. That is how I know truth, because truth is never cloaked in deception. Truth shines like a shining city on a hill. Whilst deception must forever come from the shadows, which is where it will always remain.  

[Muleslayer]

8 hours ago, Fly said:

OK, now you tell me.

A simple "I do not know" would have been accurate & sufficient.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Muleslayer
.

[Fly]

On 7/15/2017 at 2:15 PM, ladyGrace'sDaddy said:

You may insult me all you like, the Lord recompense you for your efforts. It is not I that judge you, it is God.  

You constantly make your point with your incessantly long post which are nothing more than cut and paste from your own doctrinal beliefs. So much so that I wonder from time to time if you even know what you believe. Your doctrines make the judgment call against all people of faith whilst you constantly refuse to state what faith it is that you are coming from. No worries though I know a Jehova Witness when I read one. So I ask you, if the doctrine you bring is so right whilst everything else is false teaching then why all the deception? Why all the subterfuge concerning who and what it is that you really believe? 

 

I find it interesting that you quote from 2nd Peter at the same time that the Lord has been showing me what Peter was saying to the future church. I know that the demons also know what it is that God is showing me. And that in their like deception they will use all the tools they have and the people they control in their attempt to derail me from the truth of God. But alas the demonic deception is lost in the realm of the spiritual because of John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I openly claim that my faith is Orthodox whist you deceptively make no claim to any faith. 

I never judge any man, whist you openly condemn all men to hell.  

I forever preach { as Noah did I might add } the truth of a loving God and his forgiveness for all that would simply receive his love and forgiveness. 

You preach damnation to everyone that is not of the 144,000.

That is how I know what voice it is that I listen to. That is how I know truth, because truth is never cloaked in deception. Truth shines like a shining city on a hill. Whilst deception must forever come from the shadows, which is where it will always remain.  

Humility is lowliness of mind, absence of arrogance and pride. An inner quality of the heart, humility is manifest in such traits as mildness, patience, and reasonableness. Humility is related to wisdom; humility is finally defined… in terms of selflessness and is an essential root of all wisdom.” Genuine wisdom, then, cannot exist apart from humility.

 

Even though they were lift unaddressed; the biblical teachings and clear warnings that I posted remain unchanged. And to be clear, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the whole bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, we hold to the bible as the authority for all our beliefs. When it comes to teachings offered as Biblical truth, we encourage the course followed by the Beroeans when they heard the apostle Paul preach: Acts 17:11―They received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. I believe all religious teachings should be subjected to this test of agreement with the Scriptures, whether the teaching is offered by us or someone else.

 

If it’s ok, I would like to make clear a few things from your statements. Two years ago here was the first time it was claimed I didn’t state my faith; in a hope of refuting the scripturally clear teaching I was sharing. Although it doesn't seam as effective now using the same tactic to discredit the messenger, as it’s been made very clear I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in your own statement “I know a Jehova Witness when I read one.” shows a dispirit emotional attempt made because of the lack of having supporting scriptural reasoning’s to refute the bibles clear massage. When the message cannot successfully be refuted attacking the messenger as long been the norm.

 

Why called JW’s https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/name-jehovahs-witnesses/

 

“I never judge any man, whist you openly condemn all men to hell.”

I believe you actually have that turned around all backwards; fact is your faith teaches hell as eternal torment for the unrighteous souls, a teaching not supported by the bible. When we look to the bible we’ll find the actual condition or state of the dead, we’ll also find that the unrighteous will be resurrected same as the righteous. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in hellfire (eternal torment) it doesn’t befit a Just, Loving, Powerful and Wise Creator, our Heavenly Father Jehovah God, and the teaching is not found or supported in the scriptures, the bible.

    

As for you never judging, because of your history here and already being accused of my long post, I’ll simply point to your entire preceding comments addressed at me– Jehovah’s Witnesses.   

 

“You preach damnation to everyone that is not of the 144,000.”

I know it would be a waste of time to simple ask you to please show or prove were this has been preached by me or any of JW’s, as you won’t, because you cannot as this along with your entire emotional rant is a complete fabrication…  

 

“I forever preach { as Noah did I might add } the truth of a loving God and his forgiveness for all that would simply receive his love and forgiveness.”

How could you know the truth of loving god? When supporting a faith that preaches a need of forgiveness from gods hell of eternal torment, a thought that never came up into the true Gods heart. So how could you possibly know (understand) the true God’s forgiveness…?

Dose God punish People in hellfire?  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012726  

 

 

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not condemn people they teach people, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Mat28:19,20)

When people wish to express their strong faith without having accurate spiritual guidance from God’s word; then having the worlds view of ̒̒ `the biggest jerk must win, ̒ is what shines through.  No wonder Christendoms ranks are dwindling.

 

Eph 4:20-23―But YOU did not learn the Christ to be so, provided, indeed, that YOU heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, that “YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind.

[MyLadiesDaddy]

17 minutes ago, Fly said:

Dose God punish People in hellfire?

I'm only going to make one last post because of the seriousness of the LIES that your faith spreads across humanity. And then you and the rest of the deaf and blind can have at it, your blood be on your hands.

 

To deny hell is to deny the word of God and to deny the word of God is to deny God himself.

GOD DOES NOT SEND ONE SOUL, NOT ONE SOUL, TO HELL. 

That is a choice that one must make all by themselves. God gave you the truth and if you choose to reject that truth for your own flights of fancy then you OF YOUR OWN CHOICE have chosen hell.

 

You may play all the word games you like. But in the end God's truth will be what abounds and simply because you choose to listen to a man instead of asking God himself what is true in the deepest of prayer is how you choose hell. 

 

For the love of God, my good man, take this last post and look at my signature. 

SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 

If you truly have any doubt as to the truth of what I type then for the love of your soul just ask God the Father who gives to all men liberally what is his truth. I PROMISE YOU HE WILL SHOW YOU. 

[patrickgold]

Fly,  you're interpreting God's word wrongly.  You are being deceived, and in turn, deceiving others.  

Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in understanding God's precious words. 

[George Hayduke]

Hell is mentioned 167 times in the Bible, sometimes called Gehenna, Hades, the pit, the Abyss, or everlasting punishment (Proverbs 7:27; Luke 8:31; 10:15; 2 Thessalonians 1:9). Jesus spoke of heaven and hell as real places (Matthew 13:41–42; 23:33; Mark 9:43–47; Luke 12:5). The story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus was an actual event that demonstrated the reality of the two eternal destinations (Luke 16:19–31). Heaven is the dwelling place of God (2 Chronicles 30:27) where Jesus has gone to “prepare a place” for those who love Him (John 14:2). Hell was created for “the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). But because every human being is a sinner, every person past the age of accountability has already been condemned to hell (Romans 3:10; 5:12; John 3:18). We all deserve hell as the just punishment for our rebellion against God (Romans 6:23).

Jesus was clear that “no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again” (John 3:3). He was also clear that hell is an eternal punishment for those who do not obey Him (Matthew 25:46). Second Thessalonians 1:8–9 says that in the end God “will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” John the Baptist said about Jesus, “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12).

John 3:18 explains in the simplest terms who will go to heaven and who will go to hell: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” So, those who go to hell are specifically those who do not believe in Jesus’ name. To “believe” goes beyond a mental recognition of the truth. To believe in Christ for salvation requires a transfer of allegiance. We stop worshiping ourselves, we forsake our sin, and we begin to worship God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength (Matthew 22:36–37; Mark 12:30).

God desires that every person spend eternity with Him (Matthew 18:14; 2 Peter 3:9), but He honors our free will (John 4:14). Anyone who so desires can go to heaven (John 1:12). Jesus already paid the price for our salvation, but we must accept that gift and transfer ownership of our lives to Him (Luke 9:23). Heaven is perfect, and God cannot take anyone there who insists on holding on to his or her sin. We must allow Him to cleanse us of our sin and make us righteous in His sight (2 Corinthians 5:21). John 1:10–12 shows us the problem and the solution: “He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.”

We can choose to trust in Jesus’ payment for our sin, or we can choose to pay for our sins ourselves—but we must remember that the payment for our sin is eternity in hell. C. S. Lewis said it this way: “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’”

 

S. Michael Houdmann
 

[Jim1cor13]

A religion must always have a system of punishment, no matter how unjust it sounds or appears

as long as it keeps its followers subdued and fearful. Many people, some of who I know personally

ended up ruined due to this manner of nonsense. Surrender or spend "eternity" being tortured.

 

You guys can argue for "eternity" over how to justify this doctrine, and how many and how awful this

twisted barbaric belief will torture while you are enjoying the show, but it speaks volumes as to the type of
mindset that would honestly choose to follow this myth.

 

The power of fear is all religion truly has to offer. Now carry on justifying what is unjustifiable...

 

[George Hayduke]

Jim, I am troubled by your statement: “You guys can argue for "eternity" over how to justify this doctrine, and how many and how awful this twisted barbaric belief will torture while you are enjoying the show, but it speaks volumes as to the type of mindset that would honestly choose to follow this myth.”

 

I am troubled in part because your DV name reflects a belief in Faith, Hope and Love; all tenants of Holy Spirit inspired scripture.

 

I’d like to dig a little deeper in regard to your position on Hell as is presented in Holy Spirit inspired scripture.  Consider me a novice as to what you believe and how you believe it.  I really am all ears but I do have a challenging mind so please do not take exception or offence to any of my questions or conclusions.  Consider this session as Iron Sharpening Iron.

 

I’m additionally troubled with your implication that Christians, who believe the orthodox view of Hell, by default believe your definition as one being a twisted and barbaric belief which, by your own words claim those Christians are twisted and barbaric who enjoy the suffering of those bound to hell. You make a strong assertion that many would consider extremely insulting.  However, considering your name Jim1Cor13, I believe you speak from passion and it is from that passion I would like to know, again, what you believe and how you come to believe it.

 

I know that if you truly believed I, as a washed in the Blood Christian, believed in a twisted barbaric image of hell and torture while enjoying that belief that you would, should really, want to correct my error before it morphed into heresy.

 

Let me ask a couple of questions so we might better understand each other.

• Do you believe hell exists?

• If you believe Hell exists, what purpose does it serve?

• With regard to Romans 10-13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”  We know that ‘whosoever’ calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved but what are they saved from?

• And finally, what is the purpose of the atonement?

 

Thanks in advance for taking the time to harmonize your belief with scripture.  I look forward to your response.

GH

 

[Fly]

19 hours ago, patrickgold said:

Fly,  you're interpreting God's word wrongly.  You are being deceived, and in turn, deceiving others.  

Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in understanding God's precious words. 

Thanks Patrickgold for sharing that, I do appreciate God’s word as well.

I am well a wear of the globally established commonly accepted teachings fallowed by Christian’s today, many of these beliefs if you trace them back we will find do not originate from the bible. One of these is; there is no bible ‘Hell’ a place of eternal torment. Because this teaching and belief is globally established commonly accepted and fallowed by the majority today doesn’t necessarily make it correct.

Keep in mind who is the ruler of the world system of things Luke 4:5-7; John 14:30.

[Fly]

What Really Is Hell? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002521

WHATEVER image the word “hell” brings to your mind, hell is generally thought of as a place of punishment for sin. Concerning sin and its effect, the Bible says: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) The Scriptures also state: “The wages sin pays is death.” (Romans 6:23) Since the punishment for sin is death, the fundamental question in determining the true nature of hell is: What happens to us when we die?

Does life of some kind, in some form, continue after death? What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell? The Bible gives truthful and satisfying answers to these questions.

Life After Death?

Does something inside us, like a soul or a spirit, survive the death of the body? Consider how the first man, Adam, came to have life. The Bible states: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life.” (Genesis 2:7) Though breathing sustained his life, putting “the breath of life” into his nostrils involved much more than simply blowing air into his lungs. It meant that God put into Adam’s lifeless body the spark of life—“the force of life,” which is active in all earthly creatures. (Genesis 6:17; 7:22) The Bible refers to this animating force as “spirit.” (James 2:26) That spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability.

What happens to the spirit when a person dies? Psalm 146:4 says: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” When a person dies, his impersonal spirit does not go on existing in another realm as a spirit creature. It “returns to the true God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7) This means that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.

The ancient Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato held that a soul inside a person survives death and never dies. What does the Bible teach about the soul? Adam “came to be a living soul,” says Genesis 2:7. He did not receive a soul; he was a soul—a whole person. The Scriptures speak of a soul’s doing work, craving food, being kidnapped, experiencing sleeplessness, and so forth. (Leviticus 23:30; Deuteronomy 12:20; 24:7; Psalm 119:28) Yes, man himself is a soul. When a person dies, that soul dies.—Ezekiel 18:4.

What, then, is the condition of the dead? When pronouncing sentence upon Adam, Jehovah stated: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Where was Adam before God formed him from the dust of the ground and gave him life? Why, he simply did not exist! When he died, Adam returned to that state of complete absence of life. The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” (New International Version) Scripturally, death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts.

Unending Torment or Common Grave?

Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell? Examining what happened to Jesus after he died helps to answer that question. The Bible writer Luke recounts: “Neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Hades [hell, King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption.”* (Acts 2:31) Where was the hell to which even Jesus went? The apostle Paul wrote: “I handed on to you . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) So Jesus was in hell, the grave, but he was not abandoned there, for he was raised up, or resurrected.

Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: “Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?”* (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, “hell” was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.

Hellfire—All-Consuming?

Could it be that the fire of hell is symbolic of all-consuming, or thorough, destruction? Separating fire from Hades, or hell, the Scriptures say: “Death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire.” “The lake” mentioned here is symbolic, since death and hell (Hades) that are thrown into it cannot literally be burned. “This [lake of fire] means the second death”—death from which there is no hope of coming back to life.—Revelation 20:14.

The lake of fire has a meaning similar to that of “the fiery Gehenna [hell fire, King James Version]” that Jesus spoke of. (Matthew 5:22; Mark 9:47, 48) Gehenna occurs 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, “where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.” (Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible) The fires were kept burning by adding sulfur to burn up the refuse. Jesus used that valley as a proper symbol of everlasting destruction.

As does Gehenna, the lake of fire symbolizes eternal destruction. Death and Hades are “hurled into” it in that they will be done away with when mankind is freed from sin and the condemnation of death. Willful, unrepentant sinners will also have their “portion” in that lake. (Revelation 21:8) They too will be annihilated forever. On the other hand, those in God’s memory who are in hell—the common grave of mankind—have a marvelous future.

Hell Emptied!

Revelation 20:13 states: “The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them.” Yes, the Bible hell will be emptied. As Jesus promised, “the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.” (John 5:28, 29) Although no longer presently existing in any form, millions of dead ones who are in Jehovah God’s memory will be resurrected, or brought back to life, in a restored earthly paradise.—Luke 23:43; Acts 24:15.

In the new world of God’s making, resurrected humans who comply with his righteous laws will never need to die again. (Isaiah 25:8) Jehovah “will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.” In fact, “the former things [will] have passed away.” (Revelation 21:4) What a blessing is in store for those in hell—“the memorial tombs”! This blessing indeed is reason enough for us to take in more knowledge of Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus Christ.—John 17:3.

02 July 15 watchtower; What Really Is Hell? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002521

 

[Fly]

14 hours ago, George Hayduke said:

Hell is mentioned 167 times in the Bible, sometimes called Gehenna, Hades, the pit, the Abyss, or everlasting punishment (Proverbs 7:27; Luke 8:31; 10:15; 2 Thessalonians 1:9). Jesus spoke of heaven and hell as real places (Matthew 13:41–42; 23:33; Mark 9:43–47; Luke 12:5). The story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus was an actual event that demonstrated the reality of the two eternal destinations (Luke 16:19–31). Heaven is the dwelling place of God (2 Chronicles 30:27) where Jesus has gone to “prepare a place” for those who love Him (John 14:2). Hell was created for “the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). But because every human being is a sinner, every person past the age of accountability has already been condemned to hell (Romans 3:10; 5:12; John 3:18). We all deserve hell as the just punishment for our rebellion against God (Romans 6:23).

Jesus was clear that “no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again” (John 3:3). He was also clear that hell is an eternal punishment for those who do not obey Him (Matthew 25:46). Second Thessalonians 1:8–9 says that in the end God “will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” John the Baptist said about Jesus, “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12).

John 3:18 explains in the simplest terms who will go to heaven and who will go to hell: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” So, those who go to hell are specifically those who do not believe in Jesus’ name. To “believe” goes beyond a mental recognition of the truth. To believe in Christ for salvation requires a transfer of allegiance. We stop worshiping ourselves, we forsake our sin, and we begin to worship God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength (Matthew 22:36–37; Mark 12:30).

God desires that every person spend eternity with Him (Matthew 18:14; 2 Peter 3:9), but He honors our free will (John 4:14). Anyone who so desires can go to heaven (John 1:12). Jesus already paid the price for our salvation, but we must accept that gift and transfer ownership of our lives to Him (Luke 9:23). Heaven is perfect, and God cannot take anyone there who insists on holding on to his or her sin. We must allow Him to cleanse us of our sin and make us righteous in His sight (2 Corinthians 5:21). John 1:10–12 shows us the problem and the solution: “He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.”

We can choose to trust in Jesus’ payment for our sin, or we can choose to pay for our sins ourselves—but we must remember that the payment for our sin is eternity in hell. C. S. Lewis said it this way: “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’”

 

S. Michael Houdmann
 

 

George,

I would like to shed light on Jesus' lesson from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, but first looking over Houdmann’s material can you see why Jim1cor13 would possibly be appalled? I don't want to discourage you I wish to encourage a desire for the bibles message.  

 

Fly  : )   

 

The Rich Man and Lazarus—What Is the Lesson?

JESUS CHRIST often taught a lesson by telling a story. Here is how Jesus began one famous story: “A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.”

So Jesus simply said a certain man was rich, dressed expensively and ate well, while Lazarus was hungry, covered with ulcers and licked by dogs. Was this a story about real people? No. The Catholic Jerusalem Bible in a footnote explains that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” Note why, from what Jesus next says:

“Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him. So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’”—Luke 16:19-24.

As you can see, Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of fiery punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34; John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water!

Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition.

This change, or death to the former condition of the rich man and of Lazarus, occurred when Jesus fed the neglected Lazaruslike people spiritually. Thus, they came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the self-important Jewish religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, “they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears.” They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57.

So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.

[George Hayduke]

11 hours ago, Fly said:

I would like to shed light on Jesus' lesson from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, but first looking over Houdmann’s material can you see why Jim1cor13 would possibly be appalled? I don't want to discourage you I wish to encourage a desire for the bibles message.  

 

Fly,

I can understand why Jim1Cor13 would be appalled if he correctly understood the Orthodox Christian teaching on Hell but he doesn’t.  Instead, he is appalled at his own world view of what he thinks is the Orthodox Christian view on Hell.  He is incorrect, but rather than talk about him and his views I’m looking forward to hearing from him and his reasoning based upon scripture.  

 

I think there are three simple answers to your question; The Rich Man and Lazarus—What Is the Lesson?

 

1.       Jesus Christ did teach using parables but this story is unique in that the beggar actually had a name (Lazarus) giving foundation to the belief that this was not just a parable but an actual representation of a true event. And, who would know best if it were true or not; the author of the account: Christ.

 

2.      Jesus Christ pictured Hades as a place of torment caused by an accusing conscience and permanent separation from God.

 

3.      No amount of deal making or good works will redeem the soul, only the Word of God will turn unbelief into faith that leads to salvation of the soul.

 

Your final conclusion is at complete odds with the Orthodox Christian understanding of Luke 16:20: “So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.”

 

GH

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fly]

On 7/20/2017 at 11:44 AM, George Hayduke said:

 

Fly,

I can understand why Jim1Cor13 would be appalled if he correctly understood the Orthodox Christian teaching on Hell but he doesn’t.  Instead, he is appalled at his own world view of what he thinks is the Orthodox Christian view on Hell.  He is incorrect, but rather than talk about him and his views I’m looking forward to hearing from him and his reasoning based upon scripture.  

 

I think there are three simple answers to your question; The Rich Man and Lazarus—What Is the Lesson?

 

1.       Jesus Christ did teach using parables but this story is unique in that the beggar actually had a name (Lazarus) giving foundation to the belief that this was not just a parable but an actual representation of a true event. And, who would know best if it were true or not; the author of the account: Christ.

 

2.      Jesus Christ pictured Hades as a place of torment caused by an accusing conscience and permanent separation from God.

 

3.      No amount of deal making or good works will redeem the soul, only the Word of God will turn unbelief into faith that leads to salvation of the soul.

 

Your final conclusion is at complete odds with the Orthodox Christian understanding of Luke 16:20: “So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.”

 

GH

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rich Man and Lazarus—What Is the Lesson? The question mark is in the form of a statement, fallowed with an abbreviated explanation.

And yes, the conclusion based on the bible is at odds with Orthodox understanding, if you truly want to learn why this is; we’ll need to look to the scriptures.

Actually you left off  ¾ of Jesus’ lesson to and the chief priests and Pharisees and the poor Jews,

Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition.

This change, or death to the former condition of the rich man and of Lazarus, occurred when Jesus fed the neglected Lazaruslike people spiritually. Thus, they came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the self-important Jewish religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, “they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears.” They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57.

So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.

 

Jesus’ parable story was a play on role reversal, the Pharisees new exactly what his story depicted.  

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See Luke 16:14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

 

What about the beggar? Jesus left the rich man without a name, but he gave the beggar the Jewish name Lazarus, meaning “God is helper.” He “used to be put at his [the rich man’s] gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.” (Luke 16:20, 21) As with the rich man, we do not have to look far to find the class represented by Lazarus. Jesus had just been speaking about them. In fact, it was the Pharisees who caused Jesus to talk about this other class when they complained about his welcoming the tax collectors and sinners. (Luke 15:1, 2) Also, note that, just prior to that, Jesus said to one of the rulers of the Pharisees: “When you spread a feast, invite poor people, crippled, lame, blind.” Yes, the beggar represented primarily the poor and spiritually impoverished among the Jews. They were greatly despised by the ruling class, who “trusted in themselves that they were righteous and who considered the rest as nothing,” as, like Lazarus, fit company only for dogs. Even worse, the chief priests and Pharisees, speaking angrily about the people who accepted Jesus, said: “This crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people.” The rulers, like the rich man, made no provision for any spiritual sustenance for the poor people, who were “conscious of their spiritual need” and eagerly looked for any scraps dropped from the rich man’s lavish table.—Luke 14:13; 18:9; John 7:49; Matt. 5:3.

Additionally, those rulers substituted the traditions built up over the years by their own class in place of God’s “sacred pronouncements.” Hence, as Jesus said, they “made the word of God invalid” and taught “commands of men as doctrines.” So there would be precious little nutriment in those scraps.

[George Hayduke]

17 hours ago, Fly said:

Actually you left off  ¾ of Jesus’ lesson to and the chief priests and Pharisees and the poor Jews,

Finger to nose, Fly.   Reason being, that was not the intent of the story.  The lesson was not directed to the Chief Priest and poor Jews about social behavior, it was intended for all of mankind to illustrate the reality and consequence of disbelief and an un-redeemed soul.  We were discussing the existence of Hell for sinners, remember?

 

18 hours ago, Fly said:

What about the beggar? Jesus left the rich man without a name, but he gave the beggar the Jewish name Lazarus, meaning “God is helper.”

Really? Is that statement your own or is it somebody else's?  Who ever wrote it has an astonishing insight as to what Jesus did; apparently, He told a fictional story about social behavior and injustice and developed a fictional character and gave him the name Lazarus for emphasis.  I've read some odd commentaries in my life but that one takes the cake.  If you have the time, I'd like to see the Scriptural support for such a conclusion.

 

So far you have presented Luke 16 out of context in support of your belief that there is no Hell for unbelievers.  Your modified commentary regarding Luke 16 to illustrate social status and behavior fails to illustrate that Hell for sinners does not exist.

 

Jesus' own words should put the question of Hell's existence and it's purpose to rest; "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.  Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell"  (Matt. 10:28)

 

GH

[Synopsis]

Matthew 25:31-46 New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, ³⁶ I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

³⁷ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

⁴⁰ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

⁴¹ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ⁴² For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³ I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

⁴⁴ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

⁴⁵ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

 

Revelation 14:6-13New International Version (NIV)

The Three Angels

⁶ Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. ⁷ He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

⁸ A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’^[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

⁹ A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their foreheador on their hand, ¹⁰ they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” ¹² This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

¹³ Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

John 3:1-21 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. ² He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

³ Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.^[a]”

⁴ “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

⁵ Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. ⁶ Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit^[b] gives birth to spirit. ⁷ You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You^[c] must be born again.’ ⁸ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”^[d]

⁹ “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

¹⁰ “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? ¹¹ Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. ¹² I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? ¹³ No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.^[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness,so the Son of Man must be lifted up,^[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”^[g]

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ¹⁷ For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. ¹⁸ Whoever believes in him is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. ¹⁹ This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. ²⁰ Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. ²¹ But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

 

 

John 3:31-36 New International Version (NIV)

³¹ The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. ³² He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. ³³ Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. ³⁴ For the one whom God has sentspeaks the words of God, for God^[a] gives the Spirit without limit. ³⁵ The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. ³⁶ Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Footnotes:

1. John 3:34 Greek he

 

John 1:1-18 New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ⁵ The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome^[a] it.

⁶ There was a man sent from God whose name was John. ⁷ He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. ⁸ He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

⁹ The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

¹⁵ (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) ¹⁶ Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. ¹⁷ For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸ No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and^[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Footnotes:

1. John 1:5 Or understood
2. John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only Son, who

 

Philippians 2:1-11 New International Version (NIV)

Imitating Christ’s Humility

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit,if any tenderness and compassion, ² then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. ³ Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, ⁴ not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

⁶ Who, being in very nature^[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
⁷ rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature^[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
⁸ And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

⁹ Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
¹⁰ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
¹¹ and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

Footnotes:

1. Philippians 2:6 Or in the form of
2. Philippians 2:7 Or the form

 

John 10:22-42New International Version (NIV)

Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims

²² Then came the Festival of Dedication^[a] at Jerusalem. It was winter,²³ and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.²⁴ The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

²⁵ Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, ²⁶ but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷ My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;no one will ****** them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all^[b]; no one can ****** them out of my Father’s hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

³¹ Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, ³² but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

³³ “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

³⁴ Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’^[c]? ³⁵ If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— ³⁶ what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? ³⁷ Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. ³⁸ But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” ³⁹ Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

⁴⁰ Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, ⁴¹ and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” ⁴² And in that place many believed in Jesus.

Footnotes:

1. John 10:22 That is, Hanukkah
2. John 10:29 Many early manuscripts What my Father has given me is greater than all
3. John 10:34 Psalm 82:6

 

Romans 1:16-17New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of Godthat brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. ¹⁷ For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,^[a] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”^[b]

 

 

James 2:14-25 New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

¹⁴ What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? ¹⁵ Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. ¹⁶ If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? ¹⁷ In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

¹⁸ But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

²⁰ You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless^[a]? ²¹ Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. ²³ And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”^[b]and he was called God’s friend. ²⁴ You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

²⁵ In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Footnotes:

1. James 2:20 Some early manuscripts dead
2. James 2:23 Gen. 15:6

 

Galatians 2:11-21New International Version (NIV)

Paul Opposes Cephas

¹¹ When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. ¹² For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. ¹³ The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

¹⁴ When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

¹⁵ “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles ¹⁶ know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in^[a] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

¹⁷ “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! ¹⁸ If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

¹⁹ “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. ²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. ²¹ I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”^[b]

Footnotes:

1. Galatians 2:16 Or but through the faithfulness of … justified on the basis of the faithfulness of
2. Galatians 2:21 Some interpreters end the quotation after verse 14.

Galatians 3:1-14New International Version (NIV)

Faith or Works of the Law

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. ² I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law,or by believing what you heard? ³ Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?^[a] 4 Have you experienced^[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? ⁵ So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? ⁶ So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^[c]

⁷ Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.⁸ Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”^[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

¹⁰ For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”^[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”^[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”^[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”^[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Footnotes:

1. Galatians 3:3 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
2. Galatians 3:4 Or suffered
3. Galatians 3:6 Gen. 15:6
4. Galatians 3:8 Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 22:18
5. Galatians 3:10 Deut. 27:26
6. Galatians 3:11 Hab. 2:4
7. Galatians 3:12 Lev. 18:5
8. Galatians 3:13 Deut. 21:23

Hebrews 12:1-3New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, ² fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. ³ Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

 

 

Isaiah 52:13-15New International Version (NIV)

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

¹³ See, my servant will act wisely^[a];
    he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
¹⁴ Just as there were many who were appalled at him^[b]—
    his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
    and his form marred beyond human likeness—
¹⁵ so he will sprinkle many nations,^[c]
    and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
    and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 52:13 Or will prosper
2. Isaiah 52:14 Hebrew you
3. Isaiah 52:15 Or so will many nations be amazed at him (see also Septuagint)

 

Isaiah 53:5 New International Version (NIV)

⁵ But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

 

 

1 Peter 2:24 New International Version (NIV)

²⁴ “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

 

Ephesians 2:7-10New International Version (NIV)

⁷ in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. ⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

It should be crystal clear Jesus Christ is God.

It should be crystal clear Jesus Christ is the only source of Eternal Life.

It should be crystal clear every person must receive Jesus Christ as their LORD and personal Savior.

It should be crystal clear there is a Heaven (where God dwells) and a Hell (where God doesn't dwell).

It should be crystal clear the difference between existing is Heaven (to Praise and Worship HIM eternally) and existing in Hell (experiencing torment eternally being separated from God) is not receiving Jesus Christ as LORD and Personal Savior.

It should be crystal clear the life of Faith in what God the Father has done in HIS only Son Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for my and the whole world's sin demonstrated by the good works HE prepared in advance for HIS children.

[George Hayduke]

34 minutes ago, Synopsis said:

It should be crystal clear Jesus Christ is God.

It should be crystal clear Jesus Christ is the only source of Eternal Life.

It should be crystal clear every person must receive Jesus Christ as their LORD and personal Savior.

It should be crystal clear there is a Heaven (where God dwells) and a Hell (where God doesn't dwell).

It should be crystal clear the difference between existing is Heaven (to Praise and Worship HIM eternally) and existing in Hell (experiencing torment eternally being separated from God) is not receiving Jesus Christ as LORD and Personal Savior.

It should be crystal clear the life of Faith in what God the Father has done in HIS only Son Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for my and the whole world's sin demonstrated by the good works HE prepared in advance for HIS children.

 

Selah!

[Synopsis]

27 minutes ago, George Hayduke said:

 

Selah!

 

Thank You, George Hayduke!

 

I just want to be a tool to present the Truth (Jesus Christ).

 

I struggle at times because:

 

2 Timothy 2:14-26 New International Version (NIV)

Dealing With False Teachers

¹⁴ Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. ¹⁵ Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. ¹⁶ Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. ¹⁷ Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, ¹⁸ who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. ¹⁹ Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

²⁰ In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. ²¹ Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

²² Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. ²³ Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. ²⁴ And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.²⁵ Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, ²⁶ and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

And

1 Timothy 6:20-21 New International Version (NIV)

²⁰ Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, ²¹ which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

Grace be with you all.

 

And

Titus 3:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

⁹ But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.¹⁰ Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. ¹¹ You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

 

Well, OK, I had a burr under my saddle and couldn't help but share. It is such a joy to have Jesus Christ as Savior and LORD not having to work at all for salvation from eternal separation from HIM but to have an eternal relationship with HIM because of what HE has done and experience Life with HIM as HE unfolds HIS plan and I participate with HIM in what HE has planned.

 

Blessings..............................

[Jim1cor13]

Thanks for the discussion and the thoughts, warnings, etc.

 

Here are a few of my thoughts, after being on the inside of this mind set many years ago...thought

some may appreciate it...by the way I am not interested in anything other than telling a small portion

of my story...it is what I saw many years ago and to this day still...it is my thoughts, just as you have

yours...I enjoy discussing some of these things, but too often it leads to emotional outbursts and

illogical responses, and I am guilty of all of that in my younger days. I towed the line...until I could not.

 

Keep in mind...you have not walked my path, nor do you know my heart as well as I do not know yours,

nor have I walked your path. I can only speak for myself, no one else.

 

You can judge me and condemn me,

I have no problem with that...I expect it, but you do not know me and you only have assumptions based upon

your own biases...just like me. You do not know my failings, nor my victories and how they have come about,

again, you only know and pick what does not agree with your views and assumptions and then react. So let's

move on...

 

Of course, anyone who disagrees must be labelled as something wicked, to make the others appear

righteous. It is how this works, it is how religion works. Sheep, goats, infidels, lost, saved, and a host of other

allegories that when taken literally and twisted tend to uphold and support whatever one wants which

often leads to control over others. I saw the underbelly as a young man who ended up having more questions

than answers in the midst of often smug responses and more contempt than "love".

 

Was on the inside of it for too many years, teaching, condemning, upholding all the threats towards those

who would not submit, but of course doing it all "in love" and telling people god loved them BUT would

consign them to an unending state of torment if they did not "tow the line" and "love him back", pretty much the

same as all humans demand or think to some degree.

 

Until one day I realized something

was dreadfully wrong with this manner of "gospel" and I had to admit how destructive it had become. Those who

had problems and needed help were sometimes told their problems were because "they lacked faith", or whatever

would relieve their god of any liabilities or responsibility. I watched exorcisms when people were told it was

a "demon", I watched the show as it unfolded and how manipulative it all was. I also learned over time how shallow

it all was, how shallow my pastor was, and how leadership would lie to cover their own inconsistencies.

 

Most folks have experienced some of these things, it is part of the terrain, but is never proper. I am actually grateful

I woke up and realized what was going on, and the efforts made to keep people bound in fear and guilt.

 

I began to ask questions, because what I was seeing was not what was being taught. this was a "full gospel" type of

evangelical group...questions like I was asking were not welcome. Of course I was viewed as the 'heretic', another label

placed when one becomes inconvenient to the group think. The threats were hilarious and sad. it was all they had to

try and keep me in the fold and conform to their way and views. Sorry, I have a mind of my own and I use it...

 

I said NO thanks, I have seen the toll it takes on people over the years, i have watched a few who broke under the constant fear and guilt

and had to be put away because they were not able to live under that manner of mind rape. I still see it in many people who

are too afraid to dare question what they are being taught...although they will admit to me they cannot believe some of what

they are taught. Families torn apart all due to their religion and the beliefs they were taught in their culture.

 

If true justice means endless punishment...because someone did not say just the right 'sinners prayer', or comes across

the right book that they had to believe in in order to "save their eternal soul", then one has no clue as to what true justice

is all about.

 

True justice is a means of correction and restoration, never does it include endless punishment which is

part of ancient mythology under a "heavy taskmaster", who breeds fear and guilt and is ever waiting to execute judgement

and vengeance upon anyone who refuses to submit. When one needs to lodge threats in order to be loved and worshiped,

been there, done that and sold the tshirt and the hats. The letter of the "law" still kills the spirit.

 

Again, NO thanks, i generally try and avoid tyranny in all its forms. I choose life and treating others as I desire to be treated.

Simple right?

 

No need to continue to do your warning thing, or try and convince

me or anyone else of how horrible of a person I am because I do not agree with your ways. Have heard it for years by well meaning

folks, who were fine and loving until I questioned their beliefs...and poof, they turned off that switch and turned on the threats.

 

The endless quoting and twisting of scripture to support ones views. I have seen it, taught it, believed it at one time in my life,

but in the name of all that is good and just, I can no longer support that mind set. I saw its fruit, and it was bitter and enslaving.

 

What always fascinated me was the response and reactions, the anger when one no longer buys what is being sold. As if it is

dangerous to use ones own mind and simply treat others as they desire to be treated from the heart, and not just loving those

who agree. You are more than welcome to believe whatever it is that helps you sleep at night, and calm your conscience, just

do not push or force it upon me, for I have been where you are at, and for me, it ultimately sucked the life out of me and near

ruined me. I took the wrong turn to some at the time, the moment I began to question...how dare I not fall in line.

 

It is ok, you can take comfort in believing your god will kill me and torture me, and you can claim it was all my choice, so as

to relieve god of any responsibility.

 

I actually had a woman tell me that once...she said her god would KILL me in regards to something that was none of her business

and that was her way of offering "compassion". Twisted is the only proper description of that mind set. It will always be the fault of the

weak human being, who lives most of their life under the beliefs of others and being told what to be and who to be, in a world that is often ruled

by those who desire to control us. There IS hope for the future, but not as long as religion is allowed to slowly destroy that hope due

to all its myriad threats and life stealing dogma's that its adherents appear to enjoy. If god is LOVE and supposedly possesses unconditional

love toward its creation...is it only for those who submit and obey without question, which actually makes it more of a club than a truth, right?

 

Losing an illusion makes one wiser than finding a truth...at least that is just MY opinion and MY experience in life as we try and wade

through so much mental manipulation as we see today.

 

Here is something I thought addressed the situation we see today within religion...I sincerely wish the best to all of you, godspeed always.

---

Make of this what you will...

 

A team of doctors had the unpleasant task of reporting their
diagnosis to a patient they were certain had a terminal illness.
They were so certain that when they talked with the patient,
they said this person had 6 weeks until death and to get
their "house in order".  No one questioned their diagnosis.

 

The patient was told there was no hope. During this time, something
began to occur in the patient, they began to feel stronger, they began
to realize they were improving and after several weeks, they were up on
their feet, feeling stronger by the day and eating more normal meals and
talking and laughing with their visitors and speaking kindly to each other.

 

After 6 weeks, the patient was given a clean bill of health, and told they
may go home. The doctors who were certain they were right, got
together and huddled in the patients now empty room. They began to argue
about the situation, "How could this happen" they said as they raised their voices
in anger.

 

"We went over all of it, examined every test several times, consulted with
several experts and medical books. This patient should be dead!", they exclaimed
while shaking their heads. Their books agreed, no survival was to be found with
anyone afflicted with this particular disease. The experts agreed saying all the
tests and related documents proved there was no hope...NO HOPE

 

In the end, the doctors refusing to admit their mistake, they resorted to continued
bickering about their failed prognostication and blaming each other, rather than rejoice
with their patients new found health and amazing recovery.

 

 

[Fly]

On 7/23/2017 at 0:04 PM, George Hayduke said:

Finger to nose, Fly.   Reason being, that was not the intent of the story.  The lesson was not directed to the Chief Priest and poor Jews about social behavior, it was intended for all of mankind to illustrate the reality and consequence of disbelief and an un-redeemed soul.  We were discussing the existence of Hell for sinners, remember?

 

Really? Is that statement your own or is it somebody else's?  Who ever wrote it has an astonishing insight as to what Jesus did; apparently, He told a fictional story about social behavior and injustice and developed a fictional character and gave him the name Lazarus for emphasis.  I've read some odd commentaries in my life but that one takes the cake.  If you have the time, I'd like to see the Scriptural support system" rel="">support for such a conclusion.

 

So far you have presented Luke 16 out of context in support system" rel="">support of your belief that there is no Hell for unbelievers.  Your modified commentary regarding Luke 16 to illustrate social status and behavior fails to illustrate that Hell for sinners does not exist.

 

Jesus' own words should put the question of Hell's existence and it's purpose to rest; "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.  Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell"  (Matt. 10:28)

 

GH

Really? Is that statement your own or is it somebody else's?  Who ever wrote it has an astonishing insight as to what Jesus did; apparently, He told a fictional story about social behavior and injustice and developed a fictional character and gave him the name Lazarus for emphasis.  I've read some odd commentaries in my life but that one takes the cake.  If you have the time, I'd like to see the Scriptural support system" rel="">support for such a conclusion.

 

I took the time, although it was dismissed.

Lazarus: "God is my helper" https://nameberry.com/babyname/Lazarus

Lazarus: "God is my help"   http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Lazarus

Lazarus: "God has helped." http://www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/lazarus.html

 

1.       Jesus Christ did teach using parables but this story is unique in that the beggar actually had a name (Lazarus) giving foundation to the belief that this was not just a parable but an actual representation of a true event. And, who would know best if it were true or not; the author of the account: Christ.

Because Jesus spoke using a parable to convey a message to the religious rulers and to the people that were suppressed by the religious rulers, and what makes it an actual representation of a true event is, because Jesus would know best if it were true or not..? Assuming this is an actual account that took place, wouldn’t the focus of the listeners be on the question; when did such a thing take place? Which is the same question those seeking true answer might ask today?

There are three in the story that have died the Rich man, Lazarus, Abraham. Your understanding; they have moved beyond the grave to other locations. The reason this would be so interesting then, as well as now, is that no one preceded Christ, as Jesus was the first. Jesus’ ascension to heaven to present the ransoming value of his lifeblood to Jehovah inaugurated “a new and living way” of approach to God in prayer. That it also opened the way to heavenly life harmonizes with Jesus’ own statement to the effect that, prior thereto, “no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) – (1Cor 15:20-23; Ro 6:23).    

 

Jesus' own words should put the question of Hell's existence and it's purpose to rest; "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.  Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell"  (Matt. 10:28)

Because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

The meaning given today to the word “hell” is completely foreign to the original definition of the word.

 

The English word “hell” simply denoted a ‘covered over or concealed place. The term was very similar in meaning to the Hebrew “Sheol” and the Greek “Hades,” (grave).

References to Hades and Sheol in the Scriptures do not support the existence of a place of torment after death. Neither can references to “Gehenna” (rendered “hell” in various translations) be used to support the idea of conscious torment after death. The Bible does not say that God will torment those who are thrown into Gehenna but says that God “can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matt. 10:28) Fire being the most thorough means of destruction used in Bible times, the “fire” of Gehenna fittingly represents complete destruction.

As for the “lake of fire” mentioned in Revelation 20, this “lake” is explained in verse 14 as being, not literal, but a symbol of “second death.” All who experience “second death” will remain in its grip “forever and ever.” (Rev. 20:10) Notice that verse 14 says that “death and Hades” themselves are “hurled into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:14) Obviously, death and Hades have no consciousness, but they can be destroyed, and fire represents that.

Thus it can be seen that the teaching about a fiery hell is not based on the Bible. It is merely an outgrowth of man’s not wanting to accept the fact that death ends all conscious existence. This teaching has misrepresented God as being cruel and has concealed what he desires in those whom he approves. Jehovah God does not want people to serve him simply because of fearing dreadful punishment but because of their deep love for him. (Jer. 9:24; Ps. 97:10; 119:104, 128, 163; 1 John 4:8-12) Love is a far greater deterrent to wrongdoing than is fear of punishment. (Rom. 13:8-10) To those desiring to please him, Jehovah God holds out the opportunity of gaining everlasting life. Millions will be enabled to seize that opportunity by means of a resurrection.—John 5:28, 29; 17:3.2

 

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge′en·nan tou py·ros′ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

         

[Fly]

On 7/24/2017 at 10:47 AM, Jim1cor13 said:

Thanks for the discussion and the thoughts, warnings, etc.

 

True justice is a means of correction and restoration, never does it include endless punishment which is

part of ancient mythology under a "heavy taskmaster", who breeds fear and guilt and is ever waiting to execute judgement

and vengeance upon anyone who refuses to submit.

 

Losing an illusion makes one wiser than finding a truth...at least that is just MY opinion and MY experience in life as we try and wade

through so much mental manipulation as we see today.

 

Here is something I thought addressed the situation we see today within religion...I sincerely wish the best to all of you, godspeed always.

 

Real life experience shared personally from the heart, always make the best posts. They have added another layer of meaning to a saying inspired after many years of experiencing similar views of the `world´, feelings not as uncommon as one may think.

       

“Love’s not to be feared; its imagining Your life is beautiful knowing it will come to you.”  

 

9. How should we be influenced by the fact that Jehovah (God) has given his Son as a ransom for us?

⁹ How should the fact that Jehovah has given his Son as a ransom for us, opening the way to everlasting life, influence how we use our lives now? It should deepen our love for the true God, Jehovah. At the same time, it should make us want to listen to Jesus, who represents God. “[Jesus] died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them.” (2 Corinthians 5:15) What a pleasure it is to follow in Jesus’ footsteps, for he was exemplary in imitating Jehovah’s love and compassion! This is shown by what Jesus said to humble ones: “Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.”—Matthew 11:28-30.

Worship God – Chapter Two https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002062

 

O God, you are my God, I keep looking for you. I do thirst for you. I am faint with longing for you In a dry and parched land, where there is no water. (Psalm 63:1)

 

And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free. (Revelation 22:17)

[George Hayduke]

To Fly and Jim1Cor13

 

You are correct; each of us has an opinion and has developed a ‘World View’ based upon our life experiences.  However, they can’t all be correct can they?

 

A ‘World View’ has to either be correct or incorrect.

 

It’s obvious both of you share a portion of a ‘World View’ that there is no hell to the extent that those who believe contrary to you hold a hateful, twisted, and barbaric notion of justice for unrepentant sinners.  This ‘Christian Glee’ and mythical illusion you imply Orthodox Christians celebrate simply to hold onto power over others is wrong.  Most Orthodox Christians ache at the thought of sinners rejecting Christ’s atonement and pray for their salvation.

 

I suspect that even though both of you share the idea that there is no hell you would be in disagreement regarding who is Jesus Christ, that is, unless you Jim, are also a Jehovah Witness.

 

I may be going out on a limb here, Jim, but I believe you accept the Orthodox Christian position that Jesus Christ is the second person of a Triune God; fully God in all ways.  If I’m correct, praise God! 

 

Fly, by your admission of being a Jehovah Witness you deny Jesus Christ  is the second person of a Triune God; fully God in all ways.  Why is that important?  Because when you quote Jesus Christ from the Jehovah Witness text you speak with the silent knowledge that Jesus Christ is not God.  It’s a little insincere I think.

 

You both may be asking yourselves, George, why do you keep referring to Orthodox Christians/ Christianity?

 

I’m glad you ask. (;-)

 

In today’s world everybody is a Christian right? Especially in ‘Merika where the most observed scripture verse tattooed is Philippians 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ...”  Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against tattoos, I’ve got some pretty good ink myself.  Nor am I against Christian sentiments that reflect the eternal sovereign nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

What I teach against are false christians (little ‘c’).  Why, because they are deceived and can deceive others knowingly or unknowingly.  I’m sure you both have read about the anti-christs St. Peter warned us about right?  Well, there you have it, the warning Gold Standard.

 

Orthodox Christian history began in Genesis 1:1 and ended with Revelation 22:21.  It’s a simple enough read that has stood the test of time and critic’s assaults.  Yes, many denominations have sprung from those scriptures but that does not mean they are automatically in conflict with God’s message of redemption.  Most aren’t but some are.  How are we to know?

 

From Jesus Christ’s and the Apostle’s teachings leading up to the Nicene Creed and Apostle’s Creed, Orthodox Christianity has been agreed upon and affirmed to this day (and will be until Jesus Christ returns)

Nicene Creed

English translation of the Armenian version

 

• We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
• And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
• God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
• Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
• By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
• He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
• He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
• We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
• We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life

 

 

Those denominations and individuals who hold those essential tenants as truth will represent those truths by deed and will be known as ‘Christians (big C). Those that claim otherwise are not Orthodox Christians.

 

The Jehovah Witness claim that Jesus Christ is not the true God of the Bible and merely represents God, excludes them from being defined as Orthodox Christians.

 

Your both right, you can believe what you want, you can know what you know but you can’t change what actually is with something that it is not.  In other words, God’s reality is knowable and defined only by Him for His great pleasure and no amount of word wrangling by his creatures is going to change it. 

 

GH

 

[nstoolman1]

GH,

I am going out on a limb and say, If you are a not a preacher/pastor you should be. I truly enjoy reading what you write. 

Thank the Holy Spirit for your gift.