A natural organic alternative to prednisone/methylprednisolone ?

[new york kevin]

Boy oh boy this Natural cure section has G R O W N. I recently  had a cold I never really got over after an antibiotic, 5 weeks later got it again. The DR gave augmentin and offered methylprednisolone to deal with the inflamed irritated bronchial tree. I said ok to both sincw my father, a MD, prescribed it for one of my sisters since she got wicked sinusitis. Did the job. I took it as I believed it would help the pain I have in my knee/knee cap, and it did. I don't like this med, which is an effective anti-inflamatory. Why, because I blame it for slowly killing my mother who suffered from rheumatoid arthritis, and all the negative side-effects of this med. At the end it was in every joint in her body, and prednisone merely helped to make it tolerable.

Well it has helped my knee. From my experience wit it via my mother, I seek a alternative organic natural substitute for this med. Minimal to no side effects. A combination of 1 or more alternative meds would be ok. I did come up with some Chinese Meds, one being Dong Quai:

Dong Quai

Dong Quai is an excellent alternative to prednisone being prescribed for pain control. Dong Quai offers natural anti-inflammatory properties as well as immunological boosting attributes. This herb also offers antispasmodic properties, and can be used for the treatment of pain in the abdominal region, arthritic conditions and for the treatment of headaches. Dong Quai can be safely consumed on a daily basis: the herb can be consumed at a dosage of two to four 530 mg capsules every day. Capsules should be consumed with a meal for ease of digestion, and pregnant and/or breast-feeding women should refrain from using the product. Dong Quai is sold in some drug stores, in health stores, and it is available online.

Some sites mainly reference this for use by woman for hot flashes and a few other female issues.

Any opinions, warnings,or better alternatives for tendonitis and joint pain, my fellow dinarians?

Edited March 21, 2017 by new york kevin

[md11fr8dawg]

I am interested in anyone's experience with this supplement also. My wife has arthritis and fibromyalgia and is in constant pain due to inflammation. If this will help and has no side effects, I will gladly get some for her to try.

[new york kevin]

That is 2 that is really interested in this. I will PM Thaiexpat or Tankdude when I get home from work if no response.  Thats not a threat, they have proven to be knowledgeable on many  matters in this venue. Thanks in advance guys, whoever posts helpful feedback.

[tankdude]

I was passing by and saw this post – thank you New York Kevin for your vote of confidence. I consider myself a teacher – I try to pass on information to help people make decisions that are right for them. I will admit to having my own biases – but they are well researched and science founded biases. *lol*  The redox basis for illness is becoming well documented.

I’m going to address this in 3 parts.

Dong Quai – it’s use as a steroid replacement for inflammation along with safety and side effects.

Fiibromyalgia – some of the newest information on it’s redox and mitochondrial roots

Osteoarthritis – it’s redox basis for illness.

______________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/dong-quai/background/hrb-20059206

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-936-dong%20quai.aspx?activeingredientid=936&

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/dong-quai

Dong Quai (Angelica Sinensis) It belongs to the same plant family as parsley, celery, carrots, and poison hemlock. The plant has been used for menstrual cramps, anemia associated with menstruation, pregnancy, premenstrual syndrome (PMS), pelvic pain, recovery from childbirth or illness, and fatigue or low energy. Dong quai is used in both men and women for heart conditions, high blood pressure, inflammation, headache, infections, and nerve pain.

Dong quai is likely safe when taken by mouth in recommended doses, under the care of a medical professional.

Side effects and warnings -

First – consider any food allergies. If someone is allergic or sensitive to members of the plant family that includes anise, caraway, carrot, celery, dill, and parsley. Always a good idea with any organic or natural substance. (Personally – have only found one supplement that has never had a reported allergic reaction.)

Dong quai may cause abnormal heart rhythms, anorexia, asthma or difficulty breathing, bloating, burping, changes in menstrual flow, changes in sex drive, chills, diarrhea, dizziness, dry mouth, estrogen-like effects, excess breast growth in males, fever, headache, hot flushes, increased cancer risk, increased risk of miscarriage, irritability, kidney problems, loss of appetite, low energy, nausea, relaxant effects, sensitivity to sunlight, skin irritation (burning, pain, or rash), sleep difficulty, sweating, upset stomach, uterus stimulation, vision loss, vomiting, weakness, wheezing, and widened blood vessels. (Sounds like a lot of the Western drugs to me – just saying…)

Caution is advised in people with diabetes or low blood sugar, and in those taking drugs, herbs, or supplements that affect blood sugar. Blood sugar levels may need to be monitored by a qualified healthcare professional, including a pharmacist, and medication adjustments may be necessary.

Use cautiously in people who have alcohol dependence or intolerance, anemia, cancer, eye disorders, heart problems, liver disease, lung problems, sensitive skin, and stomach problems.

Use cautiously in people taking agents that are affected by alcohol, agents that widen blood vessels, and heart agents.

Dong quai may increase the risk of bleeding. Avoid in people with bleeding disorders (including abnormally heavy menstrual periods) or taking drugs that may increase the risk of bleeding (such as warfarin (Coumadin®)). Dosing adjustments may be necessary.

Avoid before surgery or major dental procedures, and during prolonged exposure to sunlight or other sources of ultraviolet light, menstrual periods in women with heavy menstrual flow, and viral infections such as the cold or flu.

Avoid in people who have hormone-sensitive conditions (such as breast cancer, endometrial cancer or endometriosis, ovarian cancer, and uterine cancer or uterine growths), stroke, and thromboembolism (clotting that blocks blood vessels).

Dong quai may increase the amount of drowsiness caused by some drugs. Examples include benzodiazepines such as lorazepam (Ativan®) or diazepam (Valium®), barbiturates such as phenobarbital, narcotics such as codeine, some antidepressants, and alcohol. Caution is advised while driving or operating machinery.

Dong quai may also interact with acetaminophen, agents that increase sun sensitivity, agents that stimulate or treat disorders of the nervous system, agents that treat abnormal heart rhythms, agents that treat muscle spasms, agents that treat stomach and intestine disorders, agents that widen blood vessels, antibiotics, anticancer agents, antidepressants (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, SSRIs), birth control, bleomycin, calcium channel blockers, disulfiram (Antabuse®), hormonal agents, laxatives, lung agents, metronidazole (Flagyl®), nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents (NSAIDs), and pain relievers.

[tankdude]

Now – onto the others.  Both fibromyalgia and osteoarthritis have their roots in the redox basis of illness. To get a basic understanding of what that is – this is a great beginner site.

http://www.theredoxdoc.com/

Your redox state is often referred to as oxidative stress. The process of oxidation happens as our bodies metabolize (or process) the oxygen that we breathe and our cells produce energy from it in the mitochondria. This process also produces free radicals –which interact with the molecules within our cells resulting in damage (or stress) to nearby cells, mitochondria, and DNA (our genes).

Free radicals are normal and necessary to some degree. In addition to causing some damage, they also stimulate repair. It is only when the amount of free radicals produced overwhelms the repair processes that it becomes an issue. That is what we call oxidative stress.

  Oxidative stress reflects an imbalance between the systemic manifestation of reactive oxygen species and a biological system's ability to readily detoxify the reactive intermediates or to repair the resulting damage.

Oxidative stress has been linked to just about every chronic disease. A simple way to see this is to use Google (or whatever your favorite search engine is) and search “Oxidative Stress and (disease)”. 

That’s what I did for both fibromyalgia and arthritis.  Here are some of the results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555092/

“Fibromyalgia (FM) is a complex disorder that affects up to 5% of the general population worldwide. Both mitochondrial dysfunction and inflammation have been implicated in the pathophysiology of FM. We have investigated the possible relationship between mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress, and inflammation in FM.”

http://www.reumatologiaclinica.org/en/oxidative-stress-in-fibromyalgia-pathophysiology/articulo/S2173574311000086/

“In recent years oxidative stress has taken a leading role in the pathophysiology of FM.

Lipid peroxidation (LP) and carbonylated proteins, end products of membrane damage induced by ROS, are increased in the plasma of patients with FM. Furthermore, total antioxidant capacity or antioxidant enzymes such as superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase are decreased in the plasma of patients with FM.”

This one has some recommendations and is from the original site I posted

http://www.theredoxdoc.com/wp-content/uploads/NewsLetterNOV.pdf

“In summary, FM is a condition where there is obvious oxidative stress that leads to dysfunction of many cells in the body, especially nervous tissue cells. Restoring a balance to these stressed cells can lead to a return to proper function. REDOX molecules, in a balanced formulation, can provide the molecular resources for our cells to recover. Getting to the root of imbalances is often the best way to restore health rather than simply treating symptoms.”

[tankdude]

Now for arthritis - 

https://arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/ar1447

“In this review we explore the role of oxidative stress and hypoxia in the pathogenesis of rheumatoid arthritis (RA), a prototypical chronic inflammatory disorder, focusing on recent developments in this area, and highlighting mechanisms that can potentially be exploited therapeutically. An understanding of these processes in the context of RA has been greatly aided by knowledge gained in the areas of cancer and cardiovascular biology.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27720800

Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is an autoimmune, inflammatory joint disease whose exact cause is still not completely known. Reactive oxygen species (ROS) are believed to be involved in the pathogenesis of RA.

(ROS is also known as a “free radical”)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2249.2008.03634.x/full

“There is a great deal of evidence of the important role of oxidative stress in RA physiopathology.

Several groups have demonstrated increased oxidative enzyme activity, along with decreased anti-oxidant levels in RA sera and synovial fluids (SF).”

http://www.theredoxdoc.com/redox-basis-of-illness/#!

“Osteoarthritis is a condition that is best addressed at its foundation—it is a REDOX condition at its core. Regular (not extreme) exercise actually promotes cartilage vitality. There are no vessels in cartilage, so it gets its nutrients and oxygen through diffusion through fluid and tissues directly, and movement promotes this transfer of resources. Maintaining healthy REDOX potential will insure the best way to create a balanced internal environment for cartilage repair and maintenance of a smooth cellular surface to lubricate a joint.”

 

So – what this boils down to is this – you need to fight oxidative stress and support the mitochondria in the cells. There are a number of things I would recommend.  I recommend the same things for all chronic disorders – and they have all been found pretty effective.

1: Ketogenic Diet - The ketogenic diet (KD) is a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet that mimics the metabolic state of long-term fasting, it stimulates the production of mitochondria.

2:  PQQ - Pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) influences energy-related metabolism and neurologic functions in animals. The mechanism of action involves interactions with cell signaling pathways and mitochondrial function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24231099

3: CoQ10 - PQQ and CoQ10 work well together as colloids because the CoQ10 helps the PQQ absorb.

4: REDOX supplementation. Can’t really say much more than that because I’m affiliated with a biotech company that produces it.

Take the information and do with it what you will. I know my advice and $2.00 will get you a cheap cup of coffee sompelace… 

[nstoolman1]

2 minutes ago, tankdude said:

Take the information and do with it what you will. I know my advice and $2.00 will get you a cheap cup of coffee someplace… 

Where do you get your coffee???  

[tankdude]

5 minutes ago, nstoolman1 said:

Where do you get your coffee???  

Personally - depending on where you're at in Idaho - you might try Big City coffee in Boise.

If you in Wallace - just make sure they filter the water before they make the coffee....

[new york kevin]

Tankdude: I believe in giving thanks to those who have helped me, and credit to those where credit is due. You deserve both.

I know you are not a MD or Therapist, and all I seek is info here to allow me to make a informed decision.. Never holding anyones foot to the fire.There is a lot to digest above, I will do so over the course of the remainder of the week. As it relates to my knee, i think it could be tendonitis due to a work related incident at a former employer. Work Comp Dr's are not centered on patient concerns.I have been praying that I never get RA or OA. I hate RA for how it attacked my Mom.

I have, thanks to you, PQQ Anti-Aging DNA Therapy 40mg caps, bought online via Asia, Tumeric curcumin extra strenght 1500 mg caps (Asian), Qunol mega Coq10 ubiquinol 100 mg caps, and IntraNaturals K2 (MK-7) 100 mcg caps, plus Immuno Build Mushrooms, which has organic trametes, shitake, relishi, cordyceps, maitake, and ginger juice extract all in one blended 60 mg cap. The mushrooms are USA sourced organic mushrooms processed in a way that releases their B-glucans for immune support. I am guilty of not being consistent in taking these and a bunch of other vitamins daily, more like 3 times weekly. Which may explain why I have that right knee pain going up stairs. Oddly enough I can do dead lifts/clean and jerks of 100 lbs or so and no difficulty. Would these supplements help with the tendonitis, OA or RA (which I rebuke in Jesus's name) ?

 From what you have said Dong Quai seems to have all the sides effects, or at least different ones, as prednisone. Would Dong Quai be acceptable on a as needed basis in any particular dose. If you would not reccomend this what would you suggest, in what form and dose that may serve my needs? Can it be taken on a long term basis? Does the PQQ supplement that I have fulfill my Redox needs in you H O? 

Edited March 22, 2017 by new york kevin

[FlyHi]

Good read guys. NYK you are on the right track with supplements described. Personally I find turmeric most effective. Check out TDs redux supplements they are very effective long term.

Other than that try a warmer climate!

[8th ID]

Have you looked at the benefits of grapefruit juice? I was just reading an article about it and have started doing a little research. Looks like it can help with some of what you need.

[nstoolman1]

I agree with you all.

A word of caution.

Grapefruit can interact with prescribed meds good/bad and should be used with caution.

It can make some meds work better or worse.

I read it interacts with over 600 prescribed meds.

BP meds can be enhanced and cause very low BP.

So anyone who starts these treatment needs to be aware of any changes that take place and adjust as necessary.

[tankdude]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:18 AM, nstoolman1 said:

I agree with you all.

A word of caution.

Grapefruit can interact with prescribed meds good/bad and should be used with caution.

It can make some meds work better or worse.

I read it interacts with over 600 prescribed meds.

BP meds can be enhanced and cause very low BP.

So anyone who starts these treatment needs to be aware of any changes that take place and adjust as necessary.

That's a good thought nstoolman1. Just because it says "Natural" or "All Natural" it does NOT mean "All Safe" or "Good for you".

Just a few things to be aware of -

"Even though herbal supplements may be from plant or herb sources, the active ingredients can still be potent chemicals. Because of this, herbal supplements can have drug interactions, even with each other or with food or alcohol. Unfortunately, these products are not labeled with safety warnings, and it is difficult for a consumer to know if an interaction may occur. Herbal interactions with prescriptions can interfere with how the drug may be broken down in the body, enhance side effects of prescription medications, or block the intended therapeutic effect of a drug."

18 Herbal Supplements with Risky Drug Interactions  - https://www.drugs.com/slideshow/herb-drug-interactions-1069

Essential Oils & Medication Interactions: 4 Important Considerations - http://thenatpath.com/environmental-toxins/essential-oils-medication-interactions-4-important-considerations/

Here are some important general considerations regarding the use of essential oils and medications:- http://dr-lobisco.com/essentialoil-druginteractions/

Here is how to do your own checking - it is taken from this site: http://www.itmonline.org/arts/herbdrug2.htm

SEARCH MECHANISM

"If a patient merely asks you to assure that the herbs you prescribe will not interact or be a problem with a drug regimen being used at the same time, it is not possible to give such assurances. It is reasonable to relay the low incidence of herb-drug interactions and to offer the methods of minimizing herb-drug interactions (e.g., not taking the herbs and drugs at the same time; monitoring for potential interactions by maintaining routine testing, such as blood coagulation tests given to users of Warfarin). However, a practitioner with internet access can also offer to check the most recent literature for reported herb-drug interactions. To do so will require an accurate listing of the drugs being used.

Not all suspected cases of herb-drug interactions are published. However, in order for a suspected case to be published, it usually has to be formally written up by a doctor involved in the case, submitted to a journal, and reviewed by other doctors or researchers who are familiar with this subject area. Publication of a suspected case does not mean that the herb-drug interaction definitely occurred, but it does mean that the case was presented in a manner considered consistent with the modern standards for reporting such incidents. Current standards for many journal reports are inadequate, as indicated by the literature reviews.

All major medical journals, and many minor medical journals, have their articles listed-and often abstracted-in a huge database maintained by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) of the National Library of Medicine (NLM), a division of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The information is posted for easy access on the internet, and this type of posting was one of the original uses of the internet (the earlier designation for the main part of the service was MedLine). The website where one accesses the information is now called Entrez-PubMed and its access address is:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/

This site (which can also be accessed through any search engine by typing in Entrez-PubMed and then following the first link) will provide a space into which the user may type the search terms, to yield a series of abstract titles, with access to abstracts (or fuller reference information when abstracts are not available). The procedure for checking herb-drug interactions is to type in:

[name of the drug], herb-drug interactions

As an example, one can type in:

Cyclosporin, herb-drug interactions

Upon hitting the return button of the keyboard or clicking on the "go" icon on the screen, the search is rapidly completed. In the example cited here, there are three abstracts-two reviews and one specific article-all mentioning the same herb. The relevant abstract is this one:

Hazardous pharmacokinetic interaction of Saint John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) with the immunosuppressant cyclosporin.
Mai I, Kruger H, Budde K, Johne A, Brockmoller J, Neumayer HH, Roots I.

Institute of Clinical Pharmacology, Charite University Medical Center, Humboldt University of Berlin, Germany.
International Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics 2000; 38(10: 500-502.

Contrary to common belief, over-the-counter herbal remedies may cause clinically relevant drug interactions. With the enclosed report we would like to alert other physicians that herbal extracts of Saint John's Wort (Hypericum perforatum) may cause a sudden remarkable decrease of cyclosporin trough concentrations. A kidney transplantation patient treated with 75 mg bid doses of cyclosporin for many years experienced a sudden drop in her cyclosporin trough concentrations. This change was in temporal relationship to hypericum extract co-medication, and a re-challenge gave similar results….The potential clinical consequence of this pharmacokinetic herb-drug interaction is apparent, since low cyclosporin levels are associated with an increased risk of rejection after organ transplantation and are usually not suspected upon intake of plant products….

In most instances, when checking a drug for interactions, the page will display the following:

No items found.

The small number of reports of specific herb-drug interactions is the reason for getting this as a typical result. Even if one enters: Warfarin, herb-drug interactions, one will find only a few responses: some review articles (including the two cited above), and a specific report, such as a case involving an apparent interaction with boldo-fenugreek. The review articles indicate that interactions (increased blood thinning effect, with bleeding) are suspected or found for Warfarin with ginkgo (referring to the leaf), garlic, tang-kuei (danggui; sometimes spelled dong quai), and salvia (danshen). The potential for interactions has been confirmed with laboratory studies. However, such interactions are dose dependent, and it remains unclear what dosage might cause a problem. Since tang-kuei and salvia are widely used in Chinese medicine and used at widely varying dosages (from a few milligrams of powder to several grams in decoction), it would be helpful to know what dose might cause the effect; this remains undocumented. In a pharmacology study of salvia and Warfarin, the dose of salvia given to laboratory rats was 5 grams/kg body weight; this is a huge dosage. However, cases of patients experiencing bleeding when taking Warfarin and salvia have been informally reported.

If a report of interaction appears, it is important to check the abstract (when provided) for details to confirm that there is an actual report of herb-drug interaction (as with the St. John's Wort case above) rather than merely a concern raised. Also, once an herb-drug interaction report is found in the first search, a new search should be performed, specifying the herb and the drug in the search box (not just the drug name and general area of herb-drug interactions). For example, if one types in the entry-Warfarin, salvia-there are additional reviews, plus some reports on this specific interaction. One of the reviews expands the list of herbs that may reinforce the anticoagulant action of Warfarin to include ganoderma, papaw, ginseng, devil's claw, quinine, ginger, red clover, and horse chestnut. Two laboratory animal reports aimed at the study of Warfarin-salvia interactions appeared in this search. No individual clinical reports of the interaction were among those listed, so it remains unclear whether the referenced cases of bleeding had been confirmed. If one tries the entry-cyclosporin, St. John's Wort-33 references replace the earlier search results of just 3. While many of the reports review the same cases, others are relevant to understanding the interaction, and still others mention additional cases of apparent interactions. St. John's Wort has been blamed for several instances of transplant rejection due to its lowering of cyclosporin concentrations.

There are more sophisticated searches that can be performed by listing more key words to try and capture more references on the first search. However, an easy method of pursuing the subject further is to click on the words "related articles" posted next to each abstract title."

[Bama Girl]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:31 PM, new york kevin said:

Tankdude: I believe in giving thanks to those who have helped me, and credit to those where credit is due. You deserve both.

I know you are not a MD or Therapist, and all I seek is info here to allow me to make a informed decision.. Never holding anyones foot to the fire.There is a lot to digest above, I will do so over the course of the remainder of the week. As it relates to my knee, i think it could be tendonitis due to a work related incident at a former employer. Work Comp Dr's are not centered on patient concerns.I have been praying that I never get RA or OA. I hate RA for how it attacked my Mom.

I have, thanks to you, PQQ Anti-Aging DNA Therapy 40mg caps, bought online via Asia, Tumeric curcumin extra strenght 1500 mg caps (Asian), Qunol mega Coq10 ubiquinol 100 mg caps, and IntraNaturals K2 (MK-7) 100 mcg caps, plus Immuno Build Mushrooms, which has organic trametes, shitake, relishi, cordyceps, maitake, and ginger juice extract all in one blended 60 mg cap. The mushrooms are USA sourced organic mushrooms processed in a way that releases their B-glucans for immune support system" rel="">support. I am guilty of not being consistent in taking these and a bunch of other vitamins daily, more like 3 times weekly. Which may explain why I have that right knee pain going up stairs. Oddly enough I can do dead lifts/clean and jerks of 100 lbs or so and no difficulty. Would these supplements help with the tendonitis, OA or RA (which I rebuke in Jesus's name) ?

 From what you have said Dong Quai seems to have all the sides effects, or at least different ones, as prednisone. Would Dong Quai be acceptable on a as needed basis in any particular dose. If you would not reccomend this what would you suggest, in what form and dose that may serve my needs? Can it be taken on a long term basis? Does the PQQ supplement that I have fulfill my Redox needs in you H O? 

NewYork, do you mind giving your source of your supplements? It appears you have an awesome regimen and I would like to mimic it as much as possible. Thanks