The Great Delusion

[DinarDavo]

http://thewordonpolitics.com/america-under-a-strong-delusion/

[8th ID]

Good Read....Thanks.... It does make you wonder.

[RV ME]

Interesting food for thought.  Especially when you consider the Dems are exhibiting the same delusional tendencies.  A sad commentary on the world we find ourselves in at this time.

[George Hayduke]

Last Days Bloggers and self-proclaimed prophets just can’t help themselves when it comes to proclaiming America is under God’s judgement or, that God will soon remove his hand of grace from America because of 1.2 million abortions performed each year in the US or, they insinuate America is a Last Days Israel and the Old Testament Prophets proclamations and prophesies are now intended for America.

 

For those who wish to ride theological chariots in circles, here’s a news flash:  America is not the apple of Gods eye, neither is Canada (well, we already knew that) or Japan or Paraguay or even Sweden…

 

God is not interested in a nation as a singular entity as He once was with Israel when the focus of His will was to keep the Israelite genealogy stable and pure for the arrival of Jesus Christ.  At that time Gods overall focus was revealed to illustrate He loved the WHOLE world, one person at a time, equally and without prejudice.  At that moment nation’s borders shifted to the background as the Gospel was proclaimed unconditionally to all men.

 

Hear it, read it, receive it and believe it - bingo zingo redeemed/saved and thus begins the walk.

 

But what makes a Christian Nation?  A Christian Constitution?  A Christian President and, Cabinet and, Congress and, Senate and, Supreme Court?

 

Of course not.  There is no such thing nor will there ever be and, I’ll go so far as to say that the desire for such goes against God’s will for we would be attempting to establish His kingdom here on earth.

 

And that is for Christ alone.  He sits on His throne now and will someday rule all of men from His throne here on earth.

 

Yes, if there were more Christians there would be less abortions.  If there were more Christians there would be less government corruption.  If there were more Christians there would be less violence.

 

If there were more Christians the world would be a better place.

 

But how can there be more Christians when the focus is on America as the ‘Redeemer Nation’ and God’s hand of Grace stops at the Canadian and Mexican border?

 

Obviously, the answer is in the Gospel: Hear it, read it, receive it and believe it.

[MyLadiesDaddy]

Spoken like a true modern day Pharisee's of

Laodicea. "Ye be blind leaders of those who refuse

to see".

[RV ME]

Last Days Bloggers and self-proclaimed prophets just can’t help themselves when it comes to proclaiming America is under God’s judgement or, that God will soon remove his hand of grace from America because of 1.2 million abortions performed each year in the US or, they insinuate America is a Last Days Israel and the Old Testament Prophets proclamations and prophesies are now intended for America.

 

For those who wish to ride theological chariots in circles, here’s a news flash:  America is not the apple of Gods eye, neither is Canada (well, we already knew that) or Japan or Paraguay or even Sweden…

 

God is not interested in a nation as a singular entity as He once was with Israel when the focus of His will was to keep the Israelite genealogy stable and pure for the arrival of Jesus Christ.  At that time Gods overall focus was revealed to illustrate He loved the WHOLE world, one person at a time, equally and without prejudice.  At that moment nation’s borders shifted to the background as the Gospel was proclaimed unconditionally to all men.

 

Hear it, read it, receive it and believe it - bingo zingo redeemed/saved and thus begins the walk.

 

But what makes a Christian Nation?  A Christian Constitution?  A Christian President and, Cabinet and, Congress and, Senate and, Supreme Court?

 

Of course not.  There is no such thing nor will there ever be and, I’ll go so far as to say that the desire for such goes against God’s will for we would be attempting to establish His kingdom here on earth.

 

And that is for Christ alone.  He sits on His throne now and will someday rule all of men from His throne here on earth.

 

Yes, if there were more Christians there would be less abortions.  If there were more Christians there would be less government corruption.  If there were more Christians there would be less violence.

 

If there were more Christians the world would be a better place.

 

But how can there be more Christians when the focus is on America as the ‘Redeemer Nation’ and God’s hand of Grace stops at the Canadian and Mexican border?

 

Obviously, the answer is in the Gospel: Hear it, read it, receive it and believe it.

 

 

George,

In the limitations of my knowledge on the subject, I was pondering a few things after reading the OP and your post and was hoping you can help edumacate me.

 

I want to start by saying I believe there have been people who have used the Bible to claim “this is the end of times” since….well, the beginning of time.  So I have always looked at these predictions with a skeptical eye.

 

Your post points out that God does not look at nations per se, but rather the whole of humanity as individuals.  I can understand that statement but I am conflicted by a couple of stories taken from the Bible.  I have read the Bible but I have not read the Bible and I hope you can help in my understanding.

 

My conflict stems from the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Noah in the bible.  As I understand, S&G was destroyed because there was not a single good person to be found.  But at that time God only destroyed S&G.  But Noah had to build a ship because by that time God had grown weary of all of humanity (save for Noah and his family).

 

Like I said before, I do not believe every/anything is a sign of the apocalypse, but sometimes I wonder how our society specifically, and the world as a whole, compares to the biblical times regarding these episodes.  Would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[EagleEye]

Two portions of Scripture come to mind when I read this thread...I will take both from the Gospel of Matthew

 

 

Mat 16:3  And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O yehypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

 

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

No One Knows That Day and Hour

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth noman, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

 

Here's the point:  The religious leaders of the day: the Sadducees and Pharisees did NOT recognize the signs of their times which CLEARLY pointed to Messiah...interestingly enough...the wicked king DID...and sought to kill Him...the Magi did also and came to worship Him.

Jesus...tells us that THOUGH we do NOT know the day or the hour we should know the signs of the times...

 

in thirty years of full time ministry and nearly 7 decades of life I have read of and heard MANY false alarms of the so-called "last days".....BUT I have never seen a) all the signs lining up and more importantly all of the nations lining up...and interestingly enough the "world" and the cults are "saying" and "acting" as if we are in the last days...so it amazes me that people who can otherwise "quote" Scripture with the best of them...are quick to say

 

nooooo this is not that time....

 

Maranatha....  

[Texstorm]

Thanks EagleEye !

[George Hayduke]

George,

In the limitations of my knowledge on the subject, I was pondering a few things after reading the OP and your post and was hoping you can help edumacate me.

 

I want to start by saying I believe there have been people who have used the Bible to claim “this is the end of times” since….well, the beginning of time.  So I have always looked at these predictions with a skeptical eye.

 

Your post points out that God does not look at nations per se, but rather the whole of humanity as individuals.  I can understand that statement but I am conflicted by a couple of stories taken from the Bible.  I have read the Bible but I have not read the Bible and I hope you can help in my understanding.

 

My conflict stems from the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Noah in the bible.  As I understand, S&G was destroyed because there was not a single good person to be found.  But at that time God only destroyed S&G.  But Noah had to build a ship because by that time God had grown weary of all of humanity (save for Noah and his family).

 

Like I said before, I do not believe every/anything is a sign of the apocalypse, but sometimes I wonder how our society specifically, and the world as a whole, compares to the biblical times regarding these episodes.  Would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks RVME for the opportunity.

 

First let me say that my post was directed at the concept perpetuated by Judaizers and self-proclaimed ‘Last Days’ prophets and other undisciplined pastors who perpetuate the idea/error that America and American Christians in particular possess a Biblical national/spiritual identity ordained by God similar to and, as an extension of Israel’s own Biblical identity.

 

What I am not saying is that there are no ‘Last Days’ or ‘Season of Last Days.’  On the contrary, I believe the Bible is clear that the ‘Last Days’ began at Pentecost when St. Peter proclaimed:

 

"Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.” Acts 2:15-18.

 

Yes, we are living in the ‘Last Days’ and God promised to “…pour out of My Spirit on all flesh…” Note, God spoke through the Prophet Joel regarding ‘Pouring out His Spirit on all flesh’ (not upon nations but upon persons) and as a result of that pouring out of Gods Spirit: “Your sons and your daughter shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions; Your old men shall dream dreams.  And on My menservants and on My maidservant I will pour out My Spirit in those days: And they shall prophesy.”

 

I want to emphasize three important points:

1)      The purpose of spiritual and national Israel of providing a pure path of genealogy for the arrival of Christ through Mary and Joseph ended at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit empowered the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel.  The Gospel is not proclaimed to nations but to individuals.

a)      However, Scripture distinguishes between Israel and the Church and that the promises unique to Abraham and his descendants will not be fulfilled through the Church but will be fulfilled in the future. Rom 11: Rev.20

 

2)      All of the gifts God promised regarding the ‘Last Days’; visions, dreams, prophesy etc. are as real and as powerful as the moment He ‘poured them out’ some 2000 years ago.

 

3)      However, “… false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Mathew 24:24.  Jesse Duplantis, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven’s Gate, Joseph Smith and Colonel Kurtz: “…I saw a snail crawling on the edge of a straight razor… that’s my dream, my nightmare.”  You get the idea.

 

Now, more to your point regarding Sodom & Gomorrah and Noah:

 

It is important to distinguish the Old Testament from the New Testament with regard to Salvation.

 

The Old Testament reveals the spiritual and historical path of the coming Messiah.

 

The New Testament proclaims the arrival of the Messiah and His Gospel to all men.

 

What do they have in common?  Salvation by faith.  Simply put, Abraham and his descendants looked forward to the Messiah and those born after Christ look back at the Messiah.

 

The history of the Old Testament reveals that God through direct action insured the purity of the genealogy of Joseph and Mary would be preserved for the arrival of the Messiah.

 

Now that the Messiah as arrived and risen leaving His Gospel and Spiritual gifts for all of mankind  there is no need to redirect a nations destiny by God’s wrathful judgement with regard to salvation.

 

That judgement already exists in men’s hearts and by rejecting the gift of salvation they will go their own wicked ways and reap the consequences.

 

Can a nation be predominately populated by such rebellious and wicked persons?  Yes, but the actions, policies and laws of such a nation come from individuals.  The prayer of the Saints should be directed toward men’s souls and not the nation or city wherein they live.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah were two cities (not nations) that received divine Judgement from God for their sinfulness.  They were located in Canaan near three other cities that did not receive divine judgement.

 

Here is a hard pill to swallow, but nonetheless is one I have swallowed in faith:  “The Lord giveth and Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord.”

 

In Gods Omniscience He could foresee that no good thing would come out of Sodom or Gomorrah and thus destroyed them.  “Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

 

In a relatively short period of time (300/400 years) after the destruction of S&G the existing population of Noah’s time has been estimated to be as low as 21,000 and as high as 1,000,000 +persons.  In either scenario it is doubtful the whole planet was inhabited by humans as we know it today.

 

So, in the overall scheme of things if God wanted to save Noah and his family (8 people out of a million+) from the overwhelming evil of the land in order for Abraham and other patriarchs to pave the way for the Messiah in order that the almost 8 billion persons inhabiting the earth today could hear the Gospel, then, “Blessed be the Name of the Lord.”

 

I hope this has helped.  If you want to dig into this further or need me to clarify, give me a shout offline

.

GH

[MyLadiesDaddy]

Two portions of Scripture come to mind when I read this thread...I will take both from the Gospel of Matthew

 

 

Mat 16:3  [/size]And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O yehypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?[/size]

 

Mat 24:33  [/size]So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.[/size]

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

No One Knows That Day and Hour

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth noman, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

 

Here's the point:  The religious leaders of the day: the Sadducees and Pharisees did NOT recognize the signs of their times which CLEARLY pointed to Messiah...interestingly enough...the wicked king DID...and sought to kill Him...the Magi did also and came to worship Him.

Jesus...tells us that THOUGH we do NOT know the day or the hour we should know the signs of the times...

 

in thirty years of full time ministry and nearly 7 decades of life I have read of and heard MANY false alarms of the so-called "last days".....BUT I have never seen a) all the signs lining up and more importantly all of the nations lining up...and interestingly enough the "world" and the cults are "saying" and "acting" as if we are in the last days...so it amazes me that people who can otherwise "quote" Scripture with the best of them...are quick to say

 

nooooo this is not that time....

 

Maranatha....  [/size]

Spoken like the Holy Man of God I know you to be.

[EagleEye]

thanks LGD !! Be blessed my brother

[The Machine]

Meanwhile in the rest of the world were all still wondering why some Americans seem to think they have some Devine relationship with God and why he only works through America.

God was around long before America

[Shabibilicious]

Meanwhile in the rest of the world were all still wondering why some Americans seem to think they have some Devine relationship with God and why he only works through America.

God was around long before America

 

We tend to be smug that way.     

 

GO RV, then BV

[George Hayduke]

Meanwhile in the rest of the world were all still wondering why some Americans seem to think they have some Devine relationship with God and why he only works through America.

God was around long before America

 

Yep, and so were North American Natives.

We tend to be smug that way.     

 

GO RV, then BV

 

Some are and some are praying for the arrogant among us.

[Nelg]

Last Days Bloggers and self-proclaimed prophets just can’t help themselves when it comes to proclaiming America is under God’s judgement or, that God will soon remove his hand of grace from America because of 1.2 million abortions performed each year in the US or, they insinuate America is a Last Days Israel and the Old Testament Prophets proclamations and prophesies are now intended for America.

 

For those who wish to ride theological chariots in circles, here’s a news flash:  America is not the apple of Gods eye, neither is Canada (well, we already knew that) or Japan or Paraguay or even Sweden…

 

God is not interested in a nation as a singular entity as He once was with Israel when the focus of His will was to keep the Israelite genealogy stable and pure for the arrival of Jesus Christ.  At that time Gods overall focus was revealed to illustrate He loved the WHOLE world, one person at a time, equally and without prejudice.  At that moment nation’s borders shifted to the background as the Gospel was proclaimed unconditionally to all men.

 

Hear it, read it, receive it and believe it - bingo zingo redeemed/saved and thus begins the walk.

 

But what makes a Christian Nation?  A Christian Constitution?  A Christian President and, Cabinet and, Congress and, Senate and, Supreme Court?

 

Of course not.  There is no such thing nor will there ever be and, I’ll go so far as to say that the desire for such goes against God’s will for we would be attempting to establish His kingdom here on earth.

 

And that is for Christ alone.  He sits on His throne now and will someday rule all of men from His throne here on earth.

 

Yes, if there were more Christians there would be less abortions.  If there were more Christians there would be less government corruption.  If there were more Christians there would be less violence.

 

If there were more Christians the world would be a better place.

 

But how can there be more Christians when the focus is on America as the ‘Redeemer Nation’ and God’s hand of Grace stops at the Canadian and Mexican border?

 

Obviously, the answer is in the Gospel: Hear it, read it, receive it and believe it.

Excellent post, George; and hits the nail squarely.  But you are confronting a lie that has been believed by so many for so long that it will be challenged as heresy.  Hang in, you have the word of God and history supporting your position.  

Nelg  

[George Hayduke]

Excellent post, George; and hits the nail squarely.  But you are confronting a lie that has been believed by so many for so long that it will be challenged as heresy.  Hang in, you have the word of God and history supporting your position.  

Nelg  

 

Thank you Nelg for your words of encouragement - this is not the first time I've had to lean on the rudder in the face of opposition but additional support is always welcome and edifying.  And, while I know God's word will not come back void, I am concerned about those in the faith who would bear false witness against it through vile deception, ignorance or misguided passion.

GH

[RV ME]

Thanks RVME for the opportunity.

 

First let me say that my post was directed at the concept perpetuated by Judaizers and self-proclaimed ‘Last Days’ prophets and other undisciplined pastors who perpetuate the idea/error that America and American Christians in particular possess a Biblical national/spiritual identity ordained by God similar to and, as an extension of Israel’s own Biblical identity.

 

What I am not saying is that there are no ‘Last Days’ or ‘Season of Last Days.’  On the contrary, I believe the Bible is clear that the ‘Last Days’ began at Pentecost when St. Peter proclaimed:

 

"Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.” Acts 2:15-18.

 

Yes, we are living in the ‘Last Days’ and God promised to “…pour out of My Spirit on all flesh…” Note, God spoke through the Prophet Joel regarding ‘Pouring out His Spirit on all flesh’ (not upon nations but upon persons) and as a result of that pouring out of Gods Spirit: “Your sons and your daughter shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions; Your old men shall dream dreams.  And on My menservants and on My maidservant I will pour out My Spirit in those days: And they shall prophesy.”

 

I want to emphasize three important points:

1)      The purpose of spiritual and national Israel of providing a pure path of genealogy for the arrival of Christ through Mary and Joseph ended at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit empowered the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel.  The Gospel is not proclaimed to nations but to individuals.

a)      However, Scripture distinguishes between Israel and the Church and that the promises unique to Abraham and his descendants will not be fulfilled through the Church but will be fulfilled in the future. Rom 11: Rev.20

 

2)      All of the gifts God promised regarding the ‘Last Days’; visions, dreams, prophesy etc. are as real and as powerful as the moment He ‘poured them out’ some 2000 years ago.

 

3)      However, “… false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Mathew 24:24.  Jesse Duplantis, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven’s Gate, Joseph Smith and Colonel Kurtz: “…I saw a snail crawling on the edge of a straight razor… that’s my dream, my nightmare.”  You get the idea.

 

Now, more to your point regarding Sodom & Gomorrah and Noah:

 

It is important to distinguish the Old Testament from the New Testament with regard to Salvation.

 

The Old Testament reveals the spiritual and historical path of the coming Messiah.

 

The New Testament proclaims the arrival of the Messiah and His Gospel to all men.

 

What do they have in common?  Salvation by faith.  Simply put, Abraham and his descendants looked forward to the Messiah and those born after Christ look back at the Messiah.

 

The history of the Old Testament reveals that God through direct action insured the purity of the genealogy of Joseph and Mary would be preserved for the arrival of the Messiah.

 

Now that the Messiah as arrived and risen leaving His Gospel and Spiritual gifts for all of mankind  there is no need to redirect a nations destiny by God’s wrathful judgement with regard to salvation.

 

That judgement already exists in men’s hearts and by rejecting the gift of salvation they will go their own wicked ways and reap the consequences.

 

Can a nation be predominately populated by such rebellious and wicked persons?  Yes, but the actions, policies and laws of such a nation come from individuals.  The prayer of the Saints should be directed toward men’s souls and not the nation or city wherein they live.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah were two cities (not nations) that received divine Judgement from God for their sinfulness.  They were located in Canaan near three other cities that did not receive divine judgement.

 

Here is a hard pill to swallow, but nonetheless is one I have swallowed in faith:  “The Lord giveth and Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord.”

 

In Gods Omniscience He could foresee that no good thing would come out of Sodom or Gomorrah and thus destroyed them.  “Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

 

In a relatively short period of time (300/400 years) after the destruction of S&G the existing population of Noah’s time has been estimated to be as low as 21,000 and as high as 1,000,000 +persons.  In either scenario it is doubtful the whole planet was inhabited by humans as we know it today.

 

So, in the overall scheme of things if God wanted to save Noah and his family (8 people out of a million+) from the overwhelming evil of the land in order for Abraham and other patriarchs to pave the way for the Messiah in order that the almost 8 billion persons inhabiting the earth today could hear the Gospel, then, “Blessed be the Name of the Lord.”

 

I hope this has helped.  If you want to dig into this further or need me to clarify, give me a shout offline

.

GH

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond George.  Continuing education and enlightenment is always a good thing.

[Shabibilicious]

Some are and some are praying for the arrogant among us.

 

Just so you know, George.....you have been spot on in this entire thread.  As you know, I often times allow my penchant for sarcasm to get the best of me.  I meant no disrespect and will try harder in the future to channel that talent in the appropriate threads.    

 

GO RV, then BV

[George Hayduke]

Well there you go Shabs - a perfect example of two dysfunctional persons agreeing on what matters.  You can come over to the house and I'll cook up a slew of ribs while we brag about grandkids.  I evened you out on the ruby - don't know why someone dropped a red turd on you.  You may want to check your pockets for a ruby magnet - you do seem to gather a lot of them.   

[Shabibilicious]

Well there you go Shabs - a perfect example of two dysfunctional persons agreeing on what matters.  You can come over to the house and I'll cook up a slew of ribs while we brag about grandkids.  I evened you out on the ruby - don't know why someone dropped a red turd on you.  You may want to check your pockets for a ruby magnet - you do seem to gather a lot of them.   

 

I like ribs.  I don't have any grand kids yet, though.  Can't seem to get my son to pull the trigger on that situation.  Turns out, he's much like me and gets bugged relatively quickly.  Now if you happen to know any cute 25-27 year old (mute) females looking to be pampered, then objectified and ultimately dumped, I'd be glad to pass the info along to him.    

 

GO RV, then BV

[MyLadiesDaddy]

                     

 

At 11034 pluses, it's gonna take you two Holy men quite some time to neg me down,

 

                     

[George Hayduke]

Paranoid?

 

Prideful?

 

Sad, really sad... believe me, neither Nelg (if that's who you are referring to) and myself have any inclination to neg you.  You are doing a fine job on your own revealing your true heart and motives.

 

Others apparently see it too for it they are trying to get your attention with the ruby.  I stick with balanced argumentation and the truth as does Nelg.

 

But since you like your 11034 pluses so much, I'm sure the Lord will consider using them to counter-balance your bearing false witness against the brethren.

 

Have a Blessed Day