When Another Christian Hurts You

ronscarpa · July 8, 2015

When Another Christian Hurts You

Our WORD For Wednesday, 7/08/2015

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

What is the basis of our not holding grudges against Christian brothers and sisters who repent?

Our moral indignation at a terrible offense does not evaporate just because the offender is a Christian. In fact, we may feel even more betrayed. And a simple, “I’m sorry” will often seem utterly disproportionate to the painfulness and ugliness of the offense.

But in this case we are dealing with fellow Christians and the promise of God’s wrath does not apply because there is “no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). “God has not destined [Christians] for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Where shall we turn to assure ourselves that justice will be done — that Christianity is not a mockery of the seriousness of sin?

The answer is that we look to the cross of Christ. All the wrongs that have been done against us by believers were avenged in the death of Jesus. This is implied in the simple but staggering fact that all the sins of all God’s people were laid on Jesus (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Corinthians 15:3, etc.).

The suffering of Christ was the recompense of God on every hurt I have ever received from a fellow Christian. Therefore, Christianity does not make light of sin. It does not add insult to our injury.

On the contrary, it takes the sins against us so seriously that, to make them right, God gave his own Son to suffer more than we could ever make anyone suffer for what they have done to us.

John Piper

Nelg · July 8, 2015

THE most important point in salvation. God gave Himself in order to redeem us from sin and death. A person's acceptance of this fact means eternal life. A person's rejection of this fact means that that person has condemned themselves to an eternity of hell. An individual declares the destination depending on what they believe about Jesus Christ.

moose 57 · July 8, 2015

The suffering of Christ was the recompense of God on every hurt I have ever received from a fellow Christian. Therefore, Christianity does not make light of sin. It does not add insult to our injury.

On the contrary, it takes the sins against us so seriously that, to make them right, God gave his own Son to suffer more than we could ever make anyone suffer for what they have done to us.

John Piper

Amen

Fly · July 10, 2015

THE most important point in salvation. God gave Himself in order to redeem us from sin and death. A person's acceptance of this fact means eternal life. A person's rejection of this fact means that that person has condemned themselves to an eternity of hell. An individual declares the destination depending on what they believe about Jesus Christ.

No mincing words to a belief system! :deadhorse:

Although; what does the bible say about God and Jesus?

“They accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” (Acts 17:11)

If people were to read the Bible from cover to cover without any preconceived idea of a Trinity, would they arrive at such a concept on their own? Not at all.

What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.

THE Bible teaching that God is one is called monotheism. And L. L. Paine, professor of ecclesiastical history, indicates that monotheism in its purest form does not allow for a Trinity: “The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there . . . is utterly without foundation.”

Was there any change from monotheism after Jesus came to the earth? Paine answers: “On this point there is no break between the Old Testament and the New. The monotheistic tradition is continued. Jesus was a Jew, trained by Jewish parents in the Old Testament scriptures. His teaching was Jewish to the core; a new gospel indeed, but not a new theology. . . . And he accepted as his own belief the great text of Jewish monotheism: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God.’”

Those words are found at Deuteronomy 6:4. The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) here reads: “Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh.” In the grammar of that verse, the word “one” has no plural modifiers to suggest that it means anything but one individual.

The Christian apostle Paul did not indicate any change in the nature of God either, even after Jesus came to the earth. He wrote: “God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20; see also 1 Corinthians 8:4-6.

Thousands of times throughout the Bible, God is spoken of as one person. When he speaks, it is as one undivided individual. The Bible could not be any clearer on this. As God states: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory.” (Isaiah 42:8) “I am Yahweh your God . . . You shall have no gods except me.” (Italics ours.)—Exodus 20:2, 3, JB.

Why would all the God-inspired Bible writers speak of God as one person if he were actually three persons? What purpose would that serve, except to mislead people? Surely, if God were composed of three persons, he would have had his Bible writers make it abundantly clear so that there could be no doubt about it. At least the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures who had personal contact with God’s own Son would have done so. But they did not.

Instead, what the Bible writers did make abundantly clear is that God is one Person—a unique, unpartitioned Being who has no equal: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God.” (Isaiah 45:5) “You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

JESUS called God “the only true God.” (John 17:3) Never did he refer to God as a deity of plural persons. That is why nowhere in the Bible is anyone but Jehovah called Almighty. Otherwise, it voids the meaning of the word “almighty.” Neither Jesus nor the holy spirit is ever called that, for Jehovah alone is supreme. At Genesis 17:1 he declares: “I am God Almighty.” And Exodus 18:11 says: “Jehovah is greater than all the other gods.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word ’eloh′ah (god) has two plural forms, namely, ’elo·him′ (gods) and ’elo·heh′ (gods of). These plural forms generally refer to Jehovah, in which case they are translated in the singular as “God.” Do these plural forms indicate a Trinity? No, they do not. In A Dictionary of the Bible, William Smith says: “The fanciful idea that [’elo·him′] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures says of ’elo·him′: “It is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute.” To illustrate this, the title ’elo·him′ appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what God said and did is singular. (Genesis 1:1–2:4) Thus, that publication concludes: “[’Elo·him′] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.”

’Elo·him′ means, not “persons,” but “gods.” So those who argue that this word implies a Trinity make themselves polytheists, worshipers of more than one God. Why? Because it would mean that there were three gods in the Trinity. But nearly all Trinity supporters reject the view that the Trinity is made up of three separate gods.

The Bible also uses the words ’elo·him′ and ’elo·heh′ when referring to a number of false idol gods. (Exodus 12:12; 20:23) But at other times it may refer to just a single false god, as when the Philistines referred to “Dagon their god [’elo·heh′].” (Judges 16:23, 24) Baal is called “a god [’elo·him′].” (1 Kings 18:27) In addition, the term is used for humans. (Psalm 82:1, 6) Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” [’elo·him′] to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Exodus 4:16; 7:1.

Obviously, using the titles ’elo·him′ and ’elo·heh′ for false gods, and even humans, did not imply that each was a plurality of gods; neither does applying ’elo·him′ or ’elo·heh′ to Jehovah mean that he is more than one person, especially when we consider the testimony of the rest of the Bible on this subject.

WHILE on earth, Jesus was a human, although a perfect one because it was God who transferred the life-force of Jesus to the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:18-25) But that is not how he began. He himself declared that he had “descended from heaven.” (John 3:13) So it was only natural that he would later say to his followers: “What if you should see the Son of man [Jesus] ascend to where he was before?”—John 6:62, NJB.

Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.

Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was “the first-born of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was “the beginning of God’s creation.” (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). “Beginning” [Greek, ar·khe′] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the ‘beginner’ of God’s creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe′ more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of “beginning.” Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God’s invisible creations.

Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative “Wisdom” in the Bible book of Proverbs: “Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world.” (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term “Wisdom” is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.

As “Wisdom” in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was “by his [God’s] side, a master craftsman.” (Proverbs 8:30, JB) In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that “through him God created everything in heaven and on earth.”—Today’s English Version (TEV).

So it was by means of this master worker, his junior partner, as it were, that Almighty God created all other things. The Bible summarizes the matter this way: “For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.” (Italics ours.)—1 Corinthians 8:6, RS, Catholic edition.

It no doubt was to this master craftsman that God said: “Let us make man in our image.” (Genesis 1:26) Some have claimed that the “us” and “our” in this expression indicate a Trinity. But if you were to say, ‘Let us make something for ourselves,’ no one would normally understand this to imply that several persons are combined as one inside of you. You simply mean that two or more individuals will work together on something. So, too, when God used “us” and “our,” he was simply addressing another individual, his first spirit creation, the master craftsman, the prehuman Jesus.

AT MATTHEW 4:1, Jesus is spoken of as being “tempted by the Devil.” After showing Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,” Satan said: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” (Matthew 4:8, 9) Satan was trying to cause Jesus to be disloyal to God.

But what test of loyalty would that be if Jesus were God? Could God rebel against himself? No, but angels and humans could rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human.

On the other hand, it is unimaginable that God could sin and be disloyal to himself. “Perfect is his activity . . . A God of faithfulness, . . . righteous and upright is he.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) So if Jesus had been God, he could not have been tempted.—James 1:13.

Not being God, Jesus could have been disloyal. But he remained faithful, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”—Matthew 4:10.

ONE of the main reasons why Jesus came to earth also has a direct bearing on the Trinity. The Bible states: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

Jesus, no more and no less than a perfect human, became a ransom that compensated exactly for what Adam lost—the right to perfect human life on earth. So Jesus could rightly be called “the last Adam” by the apostle Paul, who said in the same context: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45) The perfect human life of Jesus was the “corresponding ransom” required by divine justice—no more, no less. A basic principle even of human justice is that the price paid should fit the wrong committed.

If Jesus, however, were part of a Godhead, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God’s own Law required. (Exodus 21:23-25; Leviticus 24:19-21) It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God’s justice, had to be strictly an equivalent—a perfect human, “the last Adam.” Thus, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would satisfy justice, not an incarnation, not a god-man, but a perfect man, “lower than angels.” (Hebrews 2:9; compare Psalm 8:5, 6.) How could any part of an almighty Godhead—Father, Son, or holy spirit—ever be lower than angels?

THE Bible calls Jesus the “only-begotten Son” of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) Trinitarians say that since God is eternal, so the Son of God is eternal. But how can a person be a son and at the same time be as old as his father?

Trinitarians claim that in the case of Jesus, “only-begotten” is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,” which is “to procreate as the father.” (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) They say that in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,” a sort of only son relationship without the begetting. (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) Does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him?

Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” (as Vine admits without any explanation) to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham? Hebrews 11:17 speaks of Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son.” There can be no question that in Isaac’s case, he was only-begotten in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to his father.

The basic Greek word for “only-begotten” used for Jesus and Isaac is mo·no·ge·nes′, from mo′nos, meaning “only,” and gi′no·mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Hence, mo·no·ge·nes′ is defined as: “Only born, only begotten, i.e. an only child.”—A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, by E. Robinson.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, says: “[Mo·no·ge·nes′] means ‘of sole descent,’ i.e., without brothers or sisters.” This book also states that at John 1:18; 3:16, 18; and 1 John 4:9, “the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.”

So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the “Father” of Jesus, it means what it says—that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior—in time, position, power, and knowledge.

When one considers that Jesus was not the only spirit son of God created in heaven, it becomes evident why the term “only-begotten Son” was used in his case. Countless other created spirit beings, angels, are also called “sons of God,” in the same sense that Adam was, because their life-force originated with Jehovah God, the Fountain, or Source, of life. (Job 38:7; Psalm 36:9; Luke 3:38) But these were all created through the “only-begotten Son,” who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17.

WHILE Jesus is often called the Son of God in the Bible, nobody in the first century ever thought of him as being God the Son. Even the demons, who “believe there is one God,” knew from their experience in the spirit realm that Jesus was not God. So, correctly, they addressed Jesus as the separate “Son of God.” (James 2:19; Matthew 8:29) And when Jesus died, the pagan Roman soldiers standing by knew enough to say that what they had heard from his followers must be right, not that Jesus was God, but that “certainly this was God’s Son.”—Matthew 27:54.

Hence, the phrase “Son of God” refers to Jesus as a separate created being, not as part of a Trinity. As the Son of God, he could not be God himself, for John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God.”—RS, Catholic edition.

The disciples viewed Jesus as the “one mediator between God and men,” not as God himself. (1 Timothy 2:5) Since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. That would be a pretending to be something he is not.

The Bible is clear and consistent about the relationship of God to Jesus. Jehovah God alone is Almighty. He created the prehuman Jesus directly. Thus, Jesus had a beginning and could never be coequal with God in power or eternity.

Nelg · July 11, 2015

I have been away all day today and just not had time to get back to see the “news” of the DV group. I will also be away from the computer (except for a short time just before bedtime) all day tomorrow. Therefore it is difficult to give an answer to the many errors that Fly has written in his post. One thing is definite: this post is filled with a denial that Jesus Christ is LORD even while in the flesh as man.

It seems like every time that Christ is mentioned as being God, that the unbeliever is ready to cast doubt on His deity. That is not a strange thing. It has happened from often over the course of history. It is totally “unbelievable” that God would become a man in order to save mankind from sin, and death. It is amazing to me when someone places himself as a teacher of the word of God, a scholar, and student of truth that there is a total lack of understanding for the basics of faith: Jesus Christ, the LORD (Jehovah).

It is sad and yet the height of arrogance when one takes it upon himself to prove that Jesus is not God. The flagrant and abusive misuse of Scripture is evident from the conclusions drawn from the above post. What is clearly said by Fly is not something new. It is what his human, man directed theology, to which he subscribes, teaches. It is plain and simple heresy.

He is teaching in his post:

1. The LORD, Jehovah, Jesus Christ is not eternal.

2. The LORD, Jesus Christ is not God in any way shape, form, or fashion.

3. Christ, or Jehovah was created by Jehovah, and therefore is a lesser god.

4. Jesus Christ is not one with the Godhead, or one with God.

5. That Jehovah is God and that there is no other God; Meaning that Jesus cannot be God.

6. Jesus Christ is a created spirit being just like the angels; therefore he could not be God, Jehovah.

7. Christ, the Word, was created to be a master craftsman to work for God.

8. Christ is Jehovah’s junior partner; therefore He can not be God.

9. Christ, the LORD is not part of the Godhead.

10. Jesus was not God come in the flesh.

11. Jesus was a perfect human, but only a human and not God.

12. If Jesus is God He could not offer sacrifice for sin because it would be too much.

13. Jesus is not the “only begotten” God, he is only one of the many “sons of God.”

14. Because Jesus was “begotten” by God, Jesus is “junior,” or lacking in the same position, power, and knowledge of God, and is not eternal.

15. No one in the first century thought of Jesus as the unique “Son of God” or Deity.

16. God alone is Jehovah God and Almighty, Jesus is not

17. Jesus is not coequal with God in power or eternity.

How many ways does a person have to declare his unbelief? Well, here are a number of times he has rejected faith in Jesus Christ.

There are things stressed by Fly in his post that indicate that he hasn’t the slightest clue about the redemptive nature of Jesus Christ and why Christ, as God came to this earth in the form of man. His lack of understanding of the incarnation (God becoming man) has cause him to not understand the temptations, Jesus’ subornation to God while in the flesh, and the sacrifice necessary to redeem mankind from sin.

But this is typical when one rejects the deity of Jesus Christ. I had ask him several questions in an earlier post concerning the nature of Christ Jesus, the LORD. He did not answer then, but he has now. It is plainly evident that Fly is not a true believer in Christ. His human theology has taken him away from God and down a path of unbelief.

Nelg · July 11, 2015

My apologies to Ron for "highjacking" this thread. This article was excellent and I should not have responded to Fly. My response was reactive since it was a challenge to the deity Jesus Christ, our LORD. Therefore, I will start another post with additional information concern Christ and Fly or others can join in the discussion. My sincere apologies sir.

ronscarpa · July 11, 2015

Thanks Nelg you did an outstanding job...Many blessings my brother...Have a great weekend..! (+3) :twothumbs: :tiphat:

Peace · July 11, 2015

I think that GOD is one, but in a different sense. That god has manifested all this **** within and outside of me. The "evil" or "dark" or "negative" energy and the "good" or "light" and "positive" energy. That he exists as everything and every one. So basically we are all GODS and are fragmented energy of God that has an energetic course to run. Since everything can be described in terms of energy i see the human body as a kind of circuit board, we receive energy and give energy and can even create and destroy energy. depending how our circuit is running, if im holding on to heavy baggage like anger, control, rejections, inadequacies or shame or guilt and all that life sapping energy like alcohol and drugs and everything that is degrading then i begin to overload my system in dark energy and i don't think the human body is capable of holding on before it starts to die. i think the human body is some kind of musical and divine tool that was meant to hold onto and anchor with higher energy signals GOD SO FANTASTIC that he exists as every being and everything. an atom is 99.99 percent Space. and everything is made of atoms... even the cosmos are mostly space... everything that we see as "physical" is resonating at a certain frequency and i feel like the light spectrum has something to do with that as well. basically god is having a dream. and he has challenged himself by giving himself universal laws within his GODMIND to navigate through his own creation otherwise why create it in the first place. He wanted a challenge and part of the challenge is waking up from the dream that we are separate. we are spirit having a human experience. so yea MY BELIEF IS MORE HERMETIC! Im glad i don't take the bible so serious otherwise i wouldn't be able to think outside the rigid draconian "laws" that are in the bible. And beliefs depending on how strong they are can stop you right where you stand and not allow for a new signal to get through, by saying "I believe" is a very powerful manifestation cuz the more you hold onto a thought the more it becomes imprinted and the more it can clog your filter of perception and literally create the world around you. So be careful what your thoughts are and the actions you take.

Fly · July 12, 2015

I have been away all day today and just not had time to get back to see the “news” of the DV group. I will also be away from the computer (except for a short time just before bedtime) all day tomorrow. Therefore it is difficult to give an answer to the many errors that Fly has written in his post. One thing is definite: this post is filled with a denial that Jesus Christ is LORD even while in the flesh as man.

It seems like every time that Christ is mentioned as being God, that the unbeliever is ready to cast doubt on His deity. That is not a strange thing. It has happened from often over the course of history. It is totally “unbelievable” that God would become a man in order to save mankind from sin, and death. It is amazing to me when someone places himself as a teacher of the word of God, a scholar, and student of truth that there is a total lack of understanding for the basics of faith: Jesus Christ, the LORD (Jehovah).

It is sad and yet the height of arrogance when one takes it upon himself to prove that Jesus is not God. The flagrant and abusive misuse of Scripture is evident from the conclusions drawn from the above post. What is clearly said by Fly is not something new. It is what his human, man directed theology, to which he subscribes, teaches. It is plain and simple heresy.

He is teaching in his post:

1.    The LORD, Jehovah, Jesus Christ is not eternal.

2.    The LORD, Jesus Christ is not God in any way shape, form, or fashion.

3.    Christ, or Jehovah was created by Jehovah, and therefore is a lesser god.

4.    Jesus Christ is not one with the Godhead, or one with God.

5.    That Jehovah is God and that there is no other God; Meaning that Jesus cannot be God.

6.    Jesus Christ is a created spirit being just like the angels; therefore he could not be God, Jehovah.

7.    Christ, the Word, was created to be a master craftsman to work for God.

8.    Christ is Jehovah’s junior partner; therefore He can not be God.

9.    Christ, the LORD is not part of the Godhead.

10. Jesus was not God come in the flesh.

11. Jesus was a perfect human, but only a human and not God.

12. If Jesus is God He could not offer sacrifice for sin because it would be too much.

13. Jesus is not the “only begotten” God, he is only one of the many “sons of God.”

14. Because Jesus was “begotten” by God, Jesus is “junior,” or lacking in the same position, power, and knowledge of God, and is not eternal.

15. No one in the first century thought of Jesus as the unique “Son of God” or Deity.

16. God alone is Jehovah God and Almighty, Jesus is not

17. Jesus is not coequal with God in power or eternity.

How many ways does a person have to declare his unbelief? Well, here are a number of times he has rejected faith in Jesus Christ.

There are things stressed by Fly in his post that indicate that he hasn’t the slightest clue about the redemptive nature of Jesus Christ and why Christ, as God came to this earth in the form of man. His lack of understanding of the incarnation (God becoming man) has cause him to not understand the temptations, Jesus’ subornation to God while in the flesh, and the sacrifice necessary to redeem mankind from sin.

But this is typical when one rejects the deity of Jesus Christ. I had ask him several questions in an earlier post concerning the nature of Christ Jesus, the LORD. He did not answer then, but he has now. It is plainly evident that Fly is not a true believer in Christ. His human theology has taken him away from God and down a path of unbelief.

Therefore it is difficult to give an answer to the many errors that Fly has written in his post. One thing is definite: this post is filled with a denial that Jesus Christ is LORD even while in the flesh as man.

It seems like every time that Christ is mentioned as being God, that the unbeliever is ready to cast doubt on His deity. That is not a strange thing. It has happened from often over the course of history. It is totally “unbelievable” that God would become a man in order to save mankind from sin, and death. It is amazing to me when someone places himself as a teacher of the word of God, a scholar, and student of truth that there is a total lack of understanding for the basics of faith: Jesus Christ, the LORD (Jehovah).

It is sad and yet the height of arrogance when one takes it upon himself to prove that Jesus is not God. The flagrant and abusive misuse of Scripture is evident from the conclusions drawn from the above post. What is clearly said by Fly is not something new. It is what his human, man directed theology, to which he subscribes, teaches. It is plain and simple heresy.

He is teaching in his post:

Because you wish to sweep the clarity of the bibles true teaching under the carpet in favor of an adopted belief system; you’ve completely fabricated your own thoughts designed to be misleading with no foundational basis to your clams of the teaching, but to only put words in my mouth.

1. The LORD, Jehovah, Jesus Christ is not eternal.

2. The LORD, Jesus Christ is not God in any way shape, form, or fashion.

3. Christ, or Jehovah was created by Jehovah, and therefore is a lesser god.

4. Jesus Christ is not one with the Godhead, or one with God.

5. That Jehovah is God and that there is no other God; Meaning that Jesus cannot be God.

6. Jesus Christ is a created spirit being just like the angels; therefore he could not be God, Jehovah.

7. Christ, the Word, was created to be a master craftsman to work for God.

8. Christ is Jehovah’s junior partner; therefore He can not be God.

9. Christ, the LORD is not part of the Godhead.

10. Jesus was not God come in the flesh.

11. Jesus was a perfect human, but only a human and not God.

12. If Jesus is God He could not offer sacrifice for sin because it would be too much.

13. Jesus is not the “only begotten” God, he is only one of the many “sons of God.”

14. Because Jesus was “begotten” by God, Jesus is “junior,” or lacking in the same position, power, and knowledge of God, and is not eternal.

15. No one in the first century thought of Jesus as the unique “Son of God” or Deity.

16. God alone is Jehovah God and Almighty, Jesus is not

17. Jesus is not coequal with God in power or eternity.

How many ways does a person have to declare his unbelief? Well, here are a number of times he has rejected faith in Jesus Christ.

There are things stressed by Fly in his post that indicate that he hasn’t the slightest clue about the redemptive nature of Jesus Christ and why Christ, as God came to this earth in the form of man. His lack of understanding of the incarnation (God becoming man) has cause him to not understand the temptations, Jesus’ subornation to God while in the flesh, and the sacrifice necessary to redeem mankind from sin.

Religion actually degrades Jesus when it teaches that he was God in the flesh. How so...? Consider an illustration. Some workers make a request of their supervisor, but he says that he does not have the authority to grant it. If his statement is true, the supervisor has wisely displayed an awareness of his limitations. If it is not true—if he can grant the request but simply chooses not to—he has been deceptive.

Now, how did Jesus respond when two of his apostles desired positions of prominence? He told them: “This sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:23) If Jesus were really God, would that not have been a lie? Instead, by deferring to the One with greater authority, Jesus set a beautiful example in modesty—and he showed that he was not equal to God.

The truth is, Jesus never claimed to be God, but he repeatedly spoke of himself as “God’s Son.” Even his enemies acknowledged this. (John 10:36; 19:7) Jesus was ever conscious of exalting the Father and subordinating himself to Him, as he confessed: “The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative . . . because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.” Again, he said: “I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.” He also said: “From God I came forth and am here.” (John 5:19, 30; 7:28, 29; 8:42) Jesus never even suggested that he was God or was equal to him. So to teach such a thing dishonors Jesus.

But this is typical when one rejects the deity of Jesus Christ. I had ask him several questions in an earlier post concerning the nature of Christ Jesus, the LORD. He did not answer then, but he has now. It is plainly evident that Fly is not a true believer in Christ. His human theology has taken him away from God and down a path of unbelief.

You cannot refute the bibles true scriptural teachings in any coherent form in harmony with the bible teaching, so you have resorted to discrediting the poster; clearly all 17 comments are your own thoughts claimed as my answers. Some are correct, some are completely wrong, others just total fabricated nonsense, typical practice of the Pharisees and Sadducees that were also in the position to no better, but out of their own pride and love of prominence refused change.

I believe this to be the thread you speak of, starting at post #2,-8, Questions you asked; saying to help you understand where I am coming from, although you did not wish to understand– but sought to create the chance to discredit me of any scriptural answer, as the answers were in the scriptural responses posted, which you did not want. Evident from this post, your response to post #8– at least not at this time.

http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/204706-are-you-a-christian/?p=1548800

During the second or third century of the Common Era, the scribes substituted the words Ky′ri·os (Lord) and The·os′ (God) for the divine name, Jehovah, in copies of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Other translations, such as the Latin Vulgate, the Douay Version (based on the Vulgate), and the King James Version, as well as numerous modern translations (NE, AT, RS, NIV, TEV, NAB), followed a similar practice. The divine name was replaced by the terms “God” and “Lord,” generally in all-capital letters (“LORD” and “GOD”) in English to indicate the substitution for the Tetragrammaton, or divine name.

As God’s created Son and Servant, Jesus Christ properly addresses his Father and God (Joh 20:17) as “Lord” (’Adho·nai′ or Ky′ri·os), the One having superior power and authority, his Head. (Mt 11:25; 1Co 11:3) As the one exalted to his Father’s right hand, Jesus is “Lord of lords” as respects all except his Father, God the Almighty.—Re 17:14; 19:15, 16; compare 1Cor 15:27,28―For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

You do not share my relationship with our heavenly Father; Jehovah God, do you?

So how could you judge my belief in his son Jesus, the Christ or anointed?

In the final part of the days,

The mountain of the house of Jehovah

Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,

And it will be raised up above the hills,

And to it all the nations will stream.

And many peoples will go and say:

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,

To the house of the God of Jacob.

He will instruct us about his ways,

And we will walk in his paths.”

For law will go out of Zion,

And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:2,3)

Nelg · July 12, 2015

Because you wish to sweep the clarity of the bibles true teaching under the carpet in favor of an adopted belief system; you’ve completely fabricated your own thoughts designed to be misleading with no foundational basis to your clams of the teaching, but to only put words in my mouth.



1.    The LORD, Jehovah, Jesus Christ is not eternal.

2.    The LORD, Jesus Christ is not God in any way shape, form, or fashion.

3.    Christ, or Jehovah was created by Jehovah, and therefore is a lesser god.

4.    Jesus Christ is not one with the Godhead, or one with God.

5.    That Jehovah is God and that there is no other God; Meaning that Jesus cannot be God.

6.    Jesus Christ is a created spirit being just like the angels; therefore he could not be God, Jehovah.

7.    Christ, the Word, was created to be a master craftsman to work for God.

8.    Christ is Jehovah’s junior partner; therefore He can not be God.

9.    Christ, the LORD is not part of the Godhead.

10. Jesus was not God come in the flesh.

11. Jesus was a perfect human, but only a human and not God.

12. If Jesus is God He could not offer sacrifice for sin because it would be too much.

13. Jesus is not the “only begotten” God, he is only one of the many “sons of God.”

14. Because Jesus was “begotten” by God, Jesus is “junior,” or lacking in the same position, power, and knowledge of God, and is not eternal.

15. No one in the first century thought of Jesus as the unique “Son of God” or Deity.

16. God alone is Jehovah God and Almighty, Jesus is not

17. Jesus is not coequal with God in power or eternity.

But this is typical when one rejects the deity of Jesus Christ. I had ask him several questions in an earlier post concerning the nature of Christ Jesus, the LORD. He did not answer then, but he has now. It is plainly evident that Fly is not a true believer in Christ. His human theology has taken him away from God and down a path of unbelief.

You cannot refute the bibles true scriptural teachings in any coherent form in harmony with the bible teaching, so you have resorted to discrediting the poster; clearly all 17 comments are your own thoughts claimed as my answers. Some are correct, some are completely wrong, others just total fabricated nonsense, typical practice of the Pharisees and Sadducees that were also in the position to no better, but out of their own pride and love of prominence refused change.

You need to reread your post. These 17 points are taken from what you have written. If they are not your words, then you need to explain your points so that wrong conclusions are not drawn from them. But from what you said in the post, these 17 points are what you indicated as your belief (or rather your unbelief).

By the way, as a matter of interest to those who are reading these posts, since you have difficulty with a number of the other translations, what translation of the Bible do you normally use?

Edited July 12, 2015 by Nelg

ronscarpa · July 12, 2015

You need to reread your post. These 17 points are taken from what you have written. If they are not your words, then you need to explain your points so that wrong conclusions are not drawn from them. But from what you said in the post, these 17 points are what you indicated as your belief (or rather your unbelief).

By the way, as a matter of interest to those who are reading these posts, since you have difficulty with a number of the other translations, what translation of the Bible do you normally use?

Nelg, from what I've read, and the perspective Fly presents, I suspect that his perspective is that of a J.W. using their new world translation - but I could be wrong.

ronscarpa · July 12, 2015

Just one scripture:

Titus 2:13 "while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

A book could be written here using Scripture to prove Jesus is the Eternal God; but if we with our finite and sinful minds could totally comprehend God and His Deity and activity among men, then He wouldn't be the Creator God. JMHO...!

The Wisdom of God is foolishness to men - and the wisdom of men is foolishness to God...!

As the Scripture warns, "don't answer a x-x- according to his folly..."

Nelg · July 12, 2015

Nelg, from what I've read, and the perspective Fly presents, I suspect that his perspective is that of a J.W. using their new world translation - but I could be wrong.

I agree with you, but I wanted Fly to tell me that.

I appreciate all the good words. The passage in Titus 2 is a favorite text (in many ways). As "proof" for Christ's Deity is one of the reasons.

The attacks on the Christian faith are directed toward two basic elements: The Inspiration, Revelation and Authority of Scripture; the Deity of Christ. Remove those two things and faith has no foundation. Thus, the attack on Jesus' Deity is a serious challenge to faith. There are more "challenges," but these are foundational elements that cannot be ignored.

Praying for you brother.

Fly · July 13, 2015

You need to reread your post. These 17 points are taken from what you have written. If they are not your words, then you need to explain your points so that wrong conclusions are not drawn from them. But from what you said in the post, these 17 points are what you indicated as your belief (or rather your unbelief).

By the way, as a matter of interest to those who are reading these posts, since you have difficulty with a number of the other translations, what translation of the Bible do you normally use?

No! Not my words, if they were my words I would be happy to correct that which are wrong, as I said, some are correct.

Numerous points have been explained, along with scriptural references to show were the thoughts can be found in your own copy of the bible, so if you honestly wished to know; then instead of placing demands on someone else as if they can make your mind over for you, you would be doing your own due diligence the same as anyone who wants to learn for themselves true bible understanding.

“These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words. But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man.” (1 Co 2:13-15)

There are translations that are easier to read, understand and use, although when teaching bible students Jehovah’s Witnesses use many different translations in bible studies, (for me it was a KJV) and always show students to compare text and thoughts using their own copy of the bible. So I don’t have difficulty with a number of other translations, I accept “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2Tim 3:16,17)

Maybe, as it is, a deeply ingrained belief system that does not harmonize with bible teaching is where wrong conclusions are drawn from, perhaps illustrated by your words? :shrug: quote; these 17 points are what you indicated as your belief (or rather your unbelief) end quote.

“But we have renounced the shameful, underhanded things, not walking with cunning or adulterating the word of God; but by making the truth manifest, we recommend ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God. If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.” (2 Cor 4:2-6)

Edited July 13, 2015 by Fly

Nelg · July 14, 2015

My apologies to Ron for again taken space in this thread for posting these controversial, but important discussions.

Thank you for answering Fly. It is always helpful to know where someone is in their “belief system” when discussing the Scripture. It might help you to know where I am in my belief as well.

I am a Christian by new birth and a saint by calling of Jesus Christ. I do not hold to any denominational allegiances. Therefore I am not a Protestant or Catholic, but only a child of God. I hold to the Scripture as being from God through the Holy Spirit but written down and spoken by men. Thus I hold to the Bible, the Scriptures, as the word of God to mankind and the basis of authority in all things. When a teaching or belief is held by me or held by others those beliefs are put into the crucible to be tested and confirmed by the Bible. I do not receive “special knowledge” from the Spirit, which is not found in the Bible. Nor does God give me special revelation that tells me if what I understand is correct or not, that comes from my study and God speaking to me from what He has said in His word. I believe and teach that the books of the Bible were completed by the end of the first century, and that many of the manuscripts or texts (books and letters) were being circulated by the disciples in the first century. However, the complete collection was not assembled until the 2^nd century. I belief and understand that we have a Greek text that is 99% of that given by God. (We may still find additional material written by inspired men, but IF those texts still exist, they will not contradict or change what we have today.)

I use the as many translations as necessary to get a proper understanding of the text. I first do my own translation of the Greek text to make sure that I am familiar with the construction of the text I am using. My translation of choice is the New American Standard Version, which used the 23^rd edition of the Nestle Greek NT, for the most part.

The basis for this discussion is the challenge that you have made to the deity of Jesus Christ. My challenge to you is that God did come into this world and that the Christ, the Anointed, in the form of a man, Jesus. That the biblical texts declare that the early disciples and apostles believed that Jesus was God come in the flesh of man and that His subjection and limitation while on earth was a willing subjection in order to redeem mankind from sin and death.

The belief that Jesus is God is fundamental to basic Christianity and salvation. It was not something that was decided by theologians in later centuries but was believed by the early disciples during the first century and taught by them in their writings of Holy Scripture.

Until this point is understood or believed, it will do no good in discussion other points of biblical teaching.

This discussion will not be a slam fest or name calling period. All points must be substantiated and proven with biblical texts. When text are use that exclude words not in the original Greek, or included words not in the original Greek, then the user of those texts must give reasons for their inclusion or exclusion.

Fly, if you are willing to enter into the discussion, I will be more that happy to accommodate.

Nelg · July 16, 2015

I guess not. :confused2:

Fly · July 16, 2015

My apologies to Ron for again taken space in this thread for posting these controversial, but important discussions.

Thank you for answering Fly. It is always helpful to know where someone is in their “belief system” when discussing the Scripture. It might help you to know where I am in my belief as well.

As you quote me, a “belief system” is made up of bible teachings designed so to spiritually mislead the world, a system put into place so mankind can easily fallow and participate in false worship without ever being conscious of this fact. (2Cor 4:4) And not, founded solely on accurate knowledge of God’s inspired word the bible, which are the only teachings Jehovah’s Witnesses are dedicated, “whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all sorts of people—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.” (1Tim 2:4,5)

I am a Christian by new birth and a saint by calling of Jesus Christ. I do not hold to any denominational allegiances. Therefore I am not a Protestant or Catholic, but only a child of God. I hold to the Scripture as being from God through the Holy Spirit but written down and spoken by men. Thus I hold to the Bible, the Scriptures, as the word of God to mankind and the basis of authority in all things. When a teaching or belief is held by me or held by others those beliefs are put into the crucible to be tested and confirmed by the Bible. I do not receive “special knowledge” from the Spirit, which is not found in the Bible. Nor does God give me special revelation that tells me if what I understand is correct or not, that comes from my study and God speaking to me from what He has said in His word. I believe and teach that the books of the Bible were completed by the end of the first century, and that many of the manuscripts or texts (books and letters) were being circulated by the disciples in the first century. However, the complete collection was not assembled until the 2^nd century. I belief and understand that we have a Greek text that is 99% of that given by God. (We may still find additional material written by inspired men, but IF those texts still exist, they will not contradict or change what we have today.)

I use the as many translations as necessary to get a proper understanding of the text. I first do my own translation of the Greek text to make sure that I am familiar with the construction of the text I am using. My translation of choice is the New American Standard Version, which used the 23^rd edition of the Nestle Greek NT, for the most part.

I’m glad you’re confident the content of the bible is intact and believe it’s the inspired word from God.

The basis for this discussion is the challenge that you have made to the deity of Jesus Christ. My challenge to you is that God did come into this world and that the Christ, the Anointed, in the form of a man, Jesus. That the biblical texts declare that the early disciples and apostles believed that Jesus was God come in the flesh of man and that His subjection and limitation while on earth was a willing subjection in order to redeem mankind from sin and death.

I have not made the “challenge” but only shared knowledge that which harmonizes completely with the bible…perhaps which is challenging you.

God’s Word is the spirit’s “sword” (Eph 6:17), revealing what a person really is, exposing hidden qualities or heart attitudes and causing him either to soften his heart and conform to God’s will expressed by that Word or to harden his heart in rebellion. (Compare Heb 4:11-13; Isa 6:9, 10; 66:2, 5.) God’s Word therefore plays a forceful part in predicting adverse judgment, and since God’s word or message must be carried out, the fulfillment of that word produces an action like that of fire on straw and like that of a forge hammer in smashing the crag. (Jer 23:28, 29)

Let the prophet who has a dream relate the dream, but the one who has my word should speak my word truthfully.”

“What does the straw have in common with the grain?” declares Jehovah.

“Is not my word just like a fire,” declares Jehovah, “and like a forge hammer that smashes the crag?” (Jer 23:28,29)

What limitation? Did he not feed the hungry, calm the wind storm, cure the sick and raise the dead? “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels? In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must take place this way?” (Matt 26:53)

The belief that Jesus is God is fundamental to basic Christianity and salvation. It was not something that was decided by theologians in later centuries but was believed by the early disciples during the first century and taught by them in their writings of Holy Scripture.

Until this point is understood or believed, it will do no good in discussion other points of biblical teaching.

There are many scriptural points required for building a solid foundation of strong faith, why do you say? “it will do no good in discussion other points of biblical teaching.”

Who go to heaven what will they be doing there, who is the little flock, who are the great crowd out of all nations, who are the other sheep, what is God’s purpose for mankind and the earth how is this to be fulfilled, what is the importance of the divine name how does it relate with the issue involving all mankind today?

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. (Matt 7:24,25)

Persons desiring divine approval need to know whether certain representations are idolatrous or simply decorative, ornamental. One who cannot discern just what constitutes an idol would have difficulty in heeding the Bible’s commands: “Flee from idolatry.” “Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 Cor. 10:14; 1 John 5:21) This could be disastrous for the individual concerned. Why? Because idolaters are specifically named among those who will not inherit God‘s kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.” (Matt 7:13,14)

This discussion will not be a slam fest or name calling period. All points must be substantiated and proven with biblical texts. When text are use that exclude words not in the original Greek, or included words not in the original Greek, then the user of those texts must give reasons for their inclusion or exclusion.

Fly, if you are willing to enter into the discussion, I will be more that happy to accommodate.

I very much respect all faith in the scriptures my hope is sharing in the building of such faith using Gods inspired word correctly. Although when one’s untrue beliefs are brought to question even when using scriptures, a defensive position is taken believing it to be a challenge of their faith and a threat aimed at them personally. “For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God,” (2Cor 10:4,5)

For those honestly seeking to know God’s true will for them, such powerful emotions can be overcome. “However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us.” (1Cor 4:7)

New World Translation: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/binav/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013

Markinsa · July 16, 2015

WOW, I can't believe no one quoted John 1:1-16, and Fly your post mentioned John 1:14 & 18, completely skipping the most important parts:

John 1:1-16 (NASB)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who wereborn, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

.

Fly · July 16, 2015

Hi Markinsa

Check again; try to staying within the content to the specific subject point.

THE Bible calls Jesus the “only-begotten Son” of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9)

John 1:14― So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

John 3:16―“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

John 3:18―Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

1John 4:9―By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.

Trinitarians say that since God is eternal, so the Son of God is eternal. But how can a person be a son and at the same time be as old as his father?

Trinitarians claim that in the case of Jesus, “only-begotten” is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,” which is “to procreate as the father.” (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) They say that in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,” a sort of only son relationship without the begetting. (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) Does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him?

Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” (as Vine admits without any explanation) to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham? Hebrews 11:17 speaks of Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son.” There can be no question that in Isaac’s case, he was only-begotten in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to his father.

The basic Greek word for “only-begotten” used for Jesus and Isaac is mo·no·ge·nes′, from mo′nos, meaning “only,” and gi′no·mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Hence, mo·no·ge·nes′ is defined as: “Only born, only begotten, i.e. an only child.”—A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, by E. Robinson.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, says: “[Mo·no·ge·nes′] means ‘of sole descent,’ i.e., without brothers or sisters.” This book also states that at John 1:18; 3:16, 18; and 1 John 4:9, “the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.”

So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the “Father” of Jesus, it means what it says—that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior—in time, position, power, and knowledge.

When one considers that Jesus was not the only spirit son of God created in heaven, it becomes evident why the term “only-begotten Son” was used in his case. Countless other created spirit beings, angels, are also called “sons of God,” in the same sense that Adam was, because their life-force originated with Jehovah God, the Fountain, or Source, of life. (Job 38:7; Psalm 36:9; Luke 3:38) But these were all created through the “only-begotten Son,” who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17.

Nelg · July 17, 2015

Thank you for answering Fly. It is always helpful to know where someone is in their “belief system” when discussing the Scripture. It might help you to know where I am in my belief as well.

As you quote me, a “belief system” is made up of bible teachings designed so to spiritually mislead the world, a system put into place so mankind can easily fallow and participate in false worship without ever being conscious of this fact. (2Cor 4:4) And not, founded solely on accurate knowledge of God’s inspired word the bible, which are the only teachings Jehovah’s Witnesses are dedicated, “whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all sorts of people—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.” (1Tim 2:4,5)

I’ll not debate about the definition of “belief system” other than to say that the reason it was in quotes is to use something that you might understand since you are fond of using such a system.

Nor will I try to defend my study of the Scripture, since you know nothing of my life given to understanding the word of God. My study has been independent and eclectic from several schools of higher learning. By “independent” I mean that there is no particular doctrinal position from a religious organization to which I must uphold. My studies and beliefs are mine learned from a study of the Scriptures over the years. So try to discredit it you must, but that is really just a waste of your time and mine.

When anyone makes a claim that Christ is not God, that He is just a created spirit being, that Jesus is only a man, that He is not eternal, challenges the belief and faith of the saints of God. And, such a belief is born of a false understand of God and Christ Jesus, and is either being mislead by other “teachers” are is one of the “teachers” committed to prove that Jesus is not God come in the flesh. I don’t think that you are unaware of what you have stated, but knew exactly what you were stating. Such statement do not harmonize with the Bible. I will address that in this post.

God’s Word is the spirit’s “sword” (Eph 6:17), revealing what a person really is, exposing hidden qualities or heart attitudes and causing him either to soften his heart and conform to God’s will expressed by that Word or to harden his heart in rebellion. (Compare Heb 4:11-13; Isa 6:9, 10; 66:2, 5.) God’s Word therefore plays a forceful part in predicting adverse judgment, and since God’s word or message must be carried out, the fulfillment of that word produces an action like that of fire on straw and like that of a forge hammer in smashing the crag. (Jer 23:28, 29)

Let the prophet who has a dream relate the dream, but the one who has my word should speak my word truthfully.”

“What does the straw have in common with the grain?” declares Jehovah.

“Is not my word just like a fire,” declares Jehovah, “and like a forge hammer that smashes the crag?” (Jer 23:28,29)

I think these are great passages that all interpreters of the Bible need to put to memory and apply. Accept in the passage in Jeremiah refers to those “lying prophets” relating a message from dreams that God had not given to them. I will be using only the word of God and I would hope that you would do the same.

What limitation? Did he not feed the hungry, calm the wind storm, cure the sick and raise the dead?

The limitations were self-imposed by Christ when God was making the plan to save mankind. While He was God and with God (Jno 1:1-2) He shared all the “glory” (Jno 17:2) with the Father, a glory that was His as God.

Those whom God had created could not achieve the redemption of mankind; they had proved by their inability to remain holy that it was not within their power to do so. God knew that even before the creation (2Tim 1:8-11; Ep 1:3-14; Phil 2:5-11)

It is during the time that God became man that Jesus’ self-limitation was necessary in order to be just like man for the purpose of bringing about man’s salvation.

Man was tempted to desire, to have what God had forbidden, to know what God had not revealed, and to be what God had not intended him to be. Paul makes it plain that “as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so death passed on all men in that ALL men sin” (Rom 5:14).

The universality of sin is seen throughout Scripture. “There is no man that does not sin (present, active, indicative)” (1Kg 8:46); “in thy sight no man living is righteous (Ps 143:2). No clearer statement can be found than that of Romans 3. Quoting from the Old Testament, “There is non righteous, not even one; There is non who understands, There is not who seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have become useless” (3:10-12). Again in verse 23, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” And in Galatians Paul writes, “the Scripture has shut up all things under sin” (3:22).

John, the apostle, writes, “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1Jn 1:8). Thus, there is a condemnation that rests upon all who have not accepted Christ (Jn 3:18, 36; 1Jn 5:12, 19). This pollution by sin has disqualified any human being from being the source of salvation. God is holy and all individuals stand guilty and unholy and cannot approach a holy God.

With the entire human race polluted with sin, a special envoy must be dispatched from heaven to be both a man (human) and God (deity). This was the plan of Deity from before the beginning creation.

Jesus, being both God and man is the means of the removal of sin. He was born of woman [a virgin] (Gal 4:4), confirmed by the virgin birth (Mt 1:18-2:12; Lk 1:30-38; 2:1-20), that Mary was a virgin and that Isaiah 7:14 in the Synoptics is confirmed by the Gospel writers. He was of the seed of Abraham and David (Mt 1:1; Rm 1:3) through the linage of Mary, while being of the seed of Israel through Joseph (Lk 3:23; Rm 9:5). This was in direct fulfillment of the seed promise discussed in Gen 3:15 made to Adam and Eve.

When the Christ became flesh by being born into this world from another, heaven. He had all the elements of the human being: body (Heb 10:5, 10; Jn 2:21; Heb 2:14), even after the resurrection (Lk 24:39). He had a human soul (Mt 26:38; Jn 12:27; and a human spirit (Mk 2:8; Lk 23:46; Jn 13:21). He was “like as we are…”(Heb 4:14-15).

As a human being, Jesus, could get weary (Jn 4:6), and sleepy (Mt 8:24), hungry (Mt 21:18) and thirsty (Jn 19:28; 4:7). He could desire authority of leadership (Mt 4:8-9). He could be limited in knowledge (Mk 13:32) as to the judgment upon Jerusalem, not the end of the world. He could lust (Jm 1:14) and be tempted with all the temptations of humanity, yet without sin. The very nature of being human made Him vulnerable to sin (Jm 1:12-15).

The nature of Jesus as a human being with all the limitations of the flesh and bone body is liable to be tempted. The point is, He may be placed into certain positions where He is forced to make a choice between doing what is wrong and pleasing the desires of the flesh or of choosing the way of faith and obedience. If this were not the case, he could not have been tempted to sin.

He was tempted to sin in one of the most vulnerable points as a human being, His trust of the Father. Mt. 4 Jesus faced the temptations of Satan in the wilderness to temp God, and Jesus’ trust in God. “But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering. …Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death that is, the devil and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. . . . He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.” (Heb 2:19-10, 14-15, 17-18).

This limitation was only during the time that Christ/God was in the world incarnate as man. He was God in eternity, during Old Testament period, and the God-man while on earth during His lifetime. His power to perform signs and do miracles was from God, the Holy Spirit. He only spoke what the Father gave Him to speak. He prayed to the Father, and all of this was during the time that He was on earth and before the resurrection and ascension.

There are many scriptural points required for building a solid foundation of strong faith, why do you say? “it will do no good in discussion other points of biblical teaching.” Who go to heaven what will they be doing there, who is the little flock, who are the great crowd out of all nations, who are the other sheep, what is God’s purpose for mankind and the earth how is this to be fulfilled, what is the importance of the divine name how does it relate with the issue involving all mankind today

I certainly agree that there are many things that need to be discussed. In fact, all the Scripture needs to be taken into consideration as disciples grow in the faith. That is axiomatic.

But all those can be studied after a person comes to faith in Christ. It would not matter if a person had a strong commitment to do good, be kind, and could manifest all the fruit of Spirit, unless one believes and trusts in Christ as LORD and Savior none of that matters. Good works and abundant knowledge will not save and cannot save a person. It is Christ and what He did at the cross. Jesus said, “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins” (Jno 8:24). So unless we come to a decision of who Jesus is, it really doesn’t matter about the other teachings. Now some of the things you listed my overlap into a study of Christ’s Deity, but the point will be . . . Who is Jesus? Is He the “I AM”?

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. (Matt 7:24,25)

Persons desiring divine approval need to know whether certain representations are idolatrous or simply decorative, ornamental. One who cannot discern just what constitutes an idol would have difficulty in heeding the Bible’s commands: “Flee from idolatry.” “Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 Cor. 10:14; 1 John 5:21) This could be disastrous for the individual concerned. Why? Because idolaters are specifically named among those who will not inherit God‘s kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.” (Matt 7:13,14)

Good passages all and worthy to be studied, but not until one comes to faith in Christ. Once Jesus is “lifted up” by the gospel these studies are important. But not as important as who He is and what He has done for mankind.

I very much respect all faith in the scriptures my hope is sharing in the building of such faith using Gods inspired word correctly. Although when one’s untrue beliefs are brought to question even when using scriptures, a defensive position is taken believing it to be a challenge of their faith and a threat aimed at them personally. “For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God,” (2Cor 10:4,5)

For those honestly seeking to know God’s true will for them, such powerful emotions can be overcome. “However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us.” (1Cor 4:7)

I will address your comments to Markinsa and address the preexistence of Christ this evening after I return from classes.

Fly · July 26, 2015

I’ll not debate about the definition of “belief system” other than to say that the reason it was in quotes is to use something that you might understand since you are fond of using such a system.

Good you agree! Satan’s design of such a world belief system, although you’re bickering clearly indicates uncertainty to its application. Eph 2:2; 2Cor 4:4– Re 14:8; 17:5

Isaiah’s words were fulfilled 2,500 years ago. However, the words recorded at Isaiah 47:8 are quoted in the book of Revelation and given a future application. There the Bible foretells the end of the harlotlike organization called “Babylon the Great”—the world empire of false religion. (Revelation 16:19) The designation “Babylon” for the false religions of the world is appropriate, since it was in ancient Babylon that false religion got its start. From there it spread to the four corners of the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9) Religious doctrines that originated in Babylon, such as the immortality of the soul, hellfire, and the worship of triune gods, are shared by virtually all religions, including Christendom.

Modern-day religions have perpetuated many of ancient Babylon’s doctrines. Hence, the world empire of false religion is well named Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:5) That international religious conglomerate has already suffered a fall similar to that of ancient Babylon in 539 B.C.E. (Revelation 14:8; 18:2) In 1919 the remnant of Christ’s brothers came out of spiritual captivity and shook off the religious influence of Christendom, a dominant part of Babylon the Great. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102001028?q=false++dramatic+end+foreseen&p=par

Nor will I try to defend my study of the Scripture, since you know nothing of my life given to understanding the word of God. My study has been independent and eclectic from several schools of higher learning. By “independent” I mean that there is no particular doctrinal position from a religious organization to which I must uphold. My studies and beliefs are mine learned from a study of the Scriptures over the years. So try to discredit it you must, but that is really just a waste of your time and mine.

Did Jesus waste his time exposing false teachings and practices?

One can’t defend what is boastfully claimed, "independent and eclectic from several schools of higher learning."

“Independent”― completely on one’s own.

“Eclectic from several”― adding emphasis, as too more than one or others.

“Schools of higher learning”― Worlds (mans) schools.

By the time Jesus appeared on earth, the scribes had become an elite class of teachers, more attached to traditions than to the true teachings of God’s Word. They liked to be called “Rabbi,” which had become an honorific title meaning “My Great (Excellent) One.” (Matthew 23:6, 7,) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the scribes are often associated with the Pharisees, some of whom were themselves teachers of the Law. Jesus accused both groups of making the word of God invalid because of their tradition and teaching “commands of men as doctrines.” (Matthew 15:1, 6, 9) Small wonder that neither Jesus nor most of his disciples were educated in the rabbinical schools.—John 7:14, 15; Acts 4:13; 22:3.

Though the Jewish leaders viewed Peter and John as “men unlettered and ordinary,” this does not mean they were illiterate or unschooled. Regarding the word a·gram′ma·tos applied to them, Hastings’ Dictionary of the Bible (1905, Vol. III, p. 757) says that to a Jew “it meant one who had had no training in the Rabbinic study of Scripture.”

Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” (Joh 7:14, 15)

Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)

There can only be one source for learning the truth of God’s word the bible, being taught by our heavenly Father the only true God Jehovah, the Most High over all the earth. This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, The One teaching you to benefit yourself, The One guiding you in the way you should walk. If only you would pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a riverAnd your righteousness like the waves of the sea. (Isaiah 48:17,18; Ps 83:18)

Jesus’ knowledge was enhanced by his having had an intimate relationship with his Father and God before coming to the earth. Therefore he knew God as no other man did, and this enabled him to provide authoritative teaching concerning his Father. As Jesus himself said: “No one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”—Mt 11:27; Joh 1:18.

Jehovah, “the greatest teacher of all.” (Job 36:22, Today’s English Version) Focusing on the Father’s teaching, Jesus next says: “It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.’”—John 6:45. Surely, it would be a privilege to be among those of whom the prophet Isaiah wrote: “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:13)

Jehovah first became both Father and Teacher when he created his only-begotten Son, the prehuman Jesus. This one is called “the Word” because he is Jehovah’s Chief Spokesman. (John 1:1, 14; 3:16) The Word served “beside [the Father] as a master worker,” and he learned well from his Father’s teaching. (Proverbs 8:22, 30) In fact, he became the Agent, or instrumentality, through whom the Father created all other things, including spirit “sons of God.” How they must have rejoiced to be taught by God! (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Colossians 1:15-17) Later, the first human, Adam, was created. He too was a “son of God,” and the Bible reveals that Jehovah instructed him.—Luke 3:38; Genesis 2:7, 16, 17.

Jehovah God, the Creator, is the Grand Instructor, or Teacher, of his servants. (1Ki 8:36; Ps 27:11; 86:11; 119:102; Isa 30:20; 54:13) The creative works themselves teach that an all-wise God exists, and they provide a field for investigation and observation that to the present day has only been partially tapped. (Job 12:7-9) Additionally, by means of special revelations, Jehovah God has taught humans his name, purposes, and laws. (Compare Ex 4:12, 15; 24:12; 34:5-7.) Such revelations are found in God’s Word, the Bible, and serve as a basis for correct teaching regarding his will. (Ro 15:4; 2Ti 3:14-17) God’s spirit also functions as a teacher.—Joh 14:26.

Although the religious leaders of Judaism evidently were not sincere in addressing him as “Teacher [Gr., Di·da′ska·los],” Jesus Christ was recognized as such by both believers and unbelievers. (Mt 8:19; 9:11; 12:38; 19:16; 22:16, 24, 36; Joh 3:2) Officers sent to arrest him were so impressed with his teaching that they returned empty-handed, saying: “Never has another man spoken like this.” (Joh 7:46) Jesus taught “as a person having authority, and not as [the] scribes.” (Mt 7:29) The Source of his teaching was God (Joh 7:16; 8:28), and Jesus conveyed information with simplicity, irrefutable logic, thought-provoking questions, striking figures of speech, and meaningful illustrations drawn from things familiar to his listeners. (Mt 6:25-30; 7:3-5, 24-27.) Jesus also used object lessons, on one occasion washing the feet of his disciples in order to teach them that they should serve one another.—Joh 13:2-16.

The Sadducees took only part of the Hebrew Scriptures, setting aside the rest, and religious modernists today do the same. Like the Sadducees, they want to be in favor with the governments of men. But if you are going to walk with God you cannot be a part of the old world, as the modernists are. Also, like the Pharisees, there are today the traditionalists. Some hold to religious traditions brought in from ancient paganism, and others have built up their own traditions in addition to what has been borrowed from paganism. Religious fundamentalists of today fall into that category. Their traditions about trinity, immortality of the soul, torment for sinners, use of idols, and many others, make void the simple truths of the Bible, just as did the traditions of the scribes and Pharisees.

The spirit of independence was introduced by Satan the Devil. He deceived the first woman, Eve, into thinking that she could be happier if she were only free from her Creator’s guidance. Eve believed that such an independent course would open up for her many eye-opening experiences and pleasures withheld from her by God.—Genesis 3:1-5; Revelation 12:9.

With eyes blinded by her newly formed selfish desires, Eve appealed to her husband to join the rebellion. Adam chose independence from God too. The result: Sorrow replaced happiness. Sin, shame, sickness, pain, and death followed, not just for Adam and Eve but for all their offspring as well.—Genesis 3:6, 16-19; Romans 5:12.

The Bible records that angels, too, decided to follow the path of independence from God by seeking illicit pleasure with the ‘good-looking daughters of men.’ Did such an independent course bring genuine satisfaction? No. Rather, it produced so much gross immorality and violence that Jehovah determined to destroy that world of ungodly people. The independent angels became demons, who now promote this same destructive spirit of rebellion among mankind.—Genesis 6:1-7, 11; Ephesians 2:2; Jude 6-12.

Independence:

The spirit of independence was introduced by Satan the Devil. He deceived the first woman, Eve, into thinking that she could be happier if she were only free from her Creator’s guidance. Eve believed that such an independent course would open up for her many eye-opening experiences and pleasures withheld from her by God.—Genesis 3:1-5; Revelation 12:9.

With eyes blinded by her newly formed selfish desires, Eve appealed to her husband to join the rebellion. Adam chose independence from God too. The result: Sorrow replaced happiness. Sin, shame, sickness, pain, and death followed, not just for Adam and Eve but for all their offspring as well.—Genesis 3:6, 16-19; Romans 5:12.

The Bible records that angels, too, decided to follow the path of independence from God by seeking illicit pleasure with the ‘good-looking daughters of men.’ Did such an independent course bring genuine satisfaction? No. Rather, it produced so much gross immorality and violence that Jehovah determined to destroy that world of ungodly people. The independent angels became demons, who now promote this same destructive spirit of rebellion among mankind.—Genesis 6:1-7, 11; Ephesians 2:2; Jude 6-12.

When anyone makes a claim that Christ is not God,

The scriptures are clear: For God is a God not of disorder but of peace. (1Cor 14:33)

Jehovah, is God: Ex 33:17-23

that He is just a created spirit being,

Spirit being, like his Father Jehovah who created him:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (Col 1:15)

that Jesus is only a man,

A perfect man, like Adam, was a perfect man:

For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. (1 Cor 15:21-28)

that He is not eternal,

(Your words) The bible shows that he was created! Which you can’t accept nor are you to understand why he is eternal: Jesus entered into immortality upon his resurrection from the dead, thereafter possessing “an indestructible life.” (1Ti 6:15, 16; Heb 7:15-17) As the “exact representation of [the] very being” of his Father, who is the incorruptible God (Heb 1:3; 1Ti 1:17), the resurrected Jesus also enjoys incorruptibility.

challenges the belief and faith of the saints of God. And, such a belief is born of a false understand of God and Christ Jesus, and is either being mislead by other “teachers” are is one of the “teachers” committed to prove that Jesus is not God come in the flesh. I don’t think that you are unaware of what you have stated, but knew exactly what you were stating. Such statement do not harmonize with the Bible. I will address that in this post.

The saints…? These are the challenged ones; claiming teachings of men as Gods word.

Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have been slaves to anyone. How is it you say, ‘You will become free’?” Jesus answered them: “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin. Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free. I know that you are Abraham’s offspring. But you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.” In answer they said to him: “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You are doing the works of your father.” They said to him: “We were not born from immorality; we have one Father, God.”

Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.” (John 8:31-47)

The Christian apostle Paul wrote about certain Jews, such as the Pharisees: “They have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge.” (Romans 10:2) However, the Gospels present them as they were seen by the common people—proud, arrogant, self-righteous, faultfinding, judgmental, and demeaning.

Truth is not for all, although “happy are those conscious of their spiritual need.”

That YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty. (Eph 4:22-24)

Again respectfully

TGC

Nelg · July 28, 2015

Nelg, on 17 Jul 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

I’ll not debate about the definition of “belief system” other than to say that the reason it was in quotes is to use something that you might understand since you are fond of using such a system.

Good you agree! Satan’s design of such a world belief system, although you’re bickering clearly indicates uncertainty to its application. Eph 2:2; 2Cor 4:4– Re 14:8; 17:5

Isaiah’s words were fulfilled 2,500 years ago. However, the words recorded at Isaiah 47:8 are quoted in the book of Revelation and given a future application. There the Bible foretells the end of the harlotlike organization called “Babylon the Great”—the world empire of false religion. (Revelation 16:19) The designation “Babylon” for the false religions of the world is appropriate, since it was in ancient Babylon that false religion got its start. From there it spread to the four corners of the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9) Religious doctrines that originated in Babylon, such as the immortality of the soul, hellfire, and the worship of triune gods, are shared by virtually all religions, including Christendom.

Modern-day religions have perpetuated many of ancient Babylon’s doctrines. Hence, the world empire of false religion is well named Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:5) That international religious conglomerate has already suffered a fall similar to that of ancient Babylon in 539 B.C.E. (Revelation 14:8; 18:2) In 1919 the remnant of Christ’s brothers came out of spiritual captivity and shook off the religious influence of Christendom, a dominant part of Babylon the Great. http://wol.jw.org/en... foreseen&p=par

Nor will I try to defend my study of the Scripture, since you know nothing of my life given to understanding the word of God. My study has been independent and eclectic from several schools of higher learning. By “independent” I mean that there is no particular doctrinal position from a religious organization to which I must uphold. My studies and beliefs are mine learned from a study of the Scriptures over the years. So try to discredit it you must, but that is really just a waste of your time and mine.

Did Jesus waste his time exposing false teachings and practices?

One can’t defend what is boastfully claimed, "independent and eclectic from several schools of higher learning."

“Independent”― completely on one’s own.

“Eclectic from several”― adding emphasis, as too more than one or others.

“Schools of higher learning”― Worlds (mans) schools.

Nelg: I don’t have to explain this but I will. This was written in order for you to know me. If it offended you; then my apologies. Was not my intention to make you feel uncomfortable.

By the time Jesus appeared on earth, the scribes had become an elite class of teachers, more attached to traditions than to the true teachings of God’s Word. They liked to be called “Rabbi,” which had become an honorific title meaning “My Great (Excellent) One.” (Matthew 23:6, 7,) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the scribes are often associated with the Pharisees, some of whom were themselves teachers of the Law. Jesus accused both groups of making the word of God invalid because of their tradition and teaching “commands of men as doctrines.” (Matthew 15:1, 6, 9) Small wonder that neither Jesus nor most of his disciples were educated in the rabbinical schools.—John 7:14, 15; Acts 4:13; 22:3.

Nelg: Since Jesus was their teacher and they spent three years teaching them, that is really all they needed at the time. Then after Jesus was resurrected and ascended, He placed within them the Holy Spirit who taught them all things and brought all things to their remembrance (Jno 14:16-18, 26; 16:12-15). So in reality, they needed no one else. The disciples had a superb education for they were being taught by God.

Though the Jewish leaders viewed Peter and John as “men unlettered and ordinary,” this does not mean they were illiterate or unschooled. Regarding the word a·gram′ma·tos applied to them, Hastings’ Dictionary of the Bible (1905, Vol. III, p. 757) says that to a Jew “it meant one who had had no training in the Rabbinic study of Scripture.”

Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” (Joh 7:14, 15)

Nelg: Yep, they were having a hard time understanding that Jesus was the one who had given the Law and commandments, the prophets, their revelation, and anything that the Jews thought they knew to them. He was the Word of God, who gave them the word of God.

Nelg: The words of Moses were the words of the One who created Him (Ex 4:11-12). Since the Word, Christ, was the LORD and Creator (Jno 1:1-2; Col 1:16-17), He was also the One who gave all the words to Moses. The OT claims that Moses wrote under the same supernatural direction that accompanied his spoken message. “Then the LORD aid to Moses, ‘Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel’”(Ex 34:27; cf.17:14; 24:4; Nu 33:2; Dt 31:9). In the Pentateuch, it is stated no fewer than 420 times that the express words of God are being recounted. So, Jehovah God, the Christ or Word gave the Pentateuch to the Jews (and to us).

Moses is not the only OT personality for whom the claim is made that he is speaking or writing for God or the LORD. The formula “Thus says the Lord” or its equivalent appears nearly eight-time n the Book of Isaiah. And Jeremiah recounted his call to a prophetic ministry this way: “Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, ‘Now, I have put my words in your mouth’” (Jer 1:9). So it was for all of the OT prophets (Hos 1:1; Am 1:3; Mic 1:1; et al.). Jesus said concerning the words that will judge us in the last day “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given me commandment, what to say, and what to speak. And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”(Jno 12:48-500.

Nelg: The conclusion is that the Word, Christ gave the OT and Jesus, the Word, gave the NT (Christ, Word, Jesus are all the same person). God is the Author of the word of God so the disciples were taught pretty well.

Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)

There can only be one source for learning the truth of God’s word the bible, being taught by our heavenly Father the only true God Jehovah, the Most High over all the earth. This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, The One teaching you to benefit yourself, The One guiding you in the way you should walk. If only you would pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river And your righteousness like the waves of the sea. (Isaiah 48:17,18; Ps 83:18)

Nelg: There is but one source of Truth, Jehovah. All other sources are prone to have dogma rule their interpretation. Sad, but many thrive on book and magazines and bibles translations from their own particular denominational bias. Not only sad, but a bad habit.

Nelg: Take a little closer look at the passage in Isaiah 48. It is very enlightening concerning Jehovah.

“Listen to me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I AM He, I am the first, I am also the last.” This is quoted in Revelation 1:17-18, the vision John had of the One who gave him the words and visions of Revelation. Here He says who He is. “And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, ‘Do not be afraid; I AM the first and the last (ring in bells- nelg). And the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” Here the risen Jesus states that He is the Jehovah of Isaiah 48! Notice what the passage says, “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him [israel, Jacob –Nelg] I have brought him, and he wlll make his ways successful. Come near to Me, listen to this: from the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was ther. And now the LORD [adonai] God [YHWH] has sent Me, and His Spirit. Thus says the LORD, you Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I AM the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go.” The conclusion is that the LORD God in Isaiah, Jesus says is Himself before He came to dwell in the flesh. Jesus is Jehovah of the OT.

Jesus’ knowledge was enhanced by his having had an intimate relationship with his Father and God before coming to the earth. Therefore he knew God as no other man did, and this enabled him to provide authoritative teaching concerning his Father. As Jesus himself said: “No one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”—Mt 11:27; Joh 1:18.

Nelg: No doubt, since He was part of the Godhead. John states, “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom [eis ton kolpon] of the Father, He has explained Him.” “Theos,”[first in Greek word order] no one has ever seen.” The present verse constitutes an inclusion with 1:1. There it was said that the Word was with God and the Word was God. Here in 1:18 it is similarly said that the “one-or-a-kind Son” was God and that he was with God in the closest way possible. This relationship, is presented as the all-important reason why Jesus, the enfleshed [sarx] Word (v, 14) was able to overcome the vast gulf that had existed between God and humankind up to that point- For God no one had ever seen-not even Moses (1:17; Num 12:8). As Jesus asserts later in te Gospel, anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father (14:9; cf. 12:45). In the OT, God had stated clearly that no one could see His face and live (Ex. 33:20). Moses received a glimpse of God’s back (Ex 33:20), as did Hagar (metaphorically; Gn 16:13). The saints of the OT usually were terrified of seeing God (Ex 3:6; Jud 13:21-22; Isa. 6:5). The reason for humankind’s inability to see God is two-fold: first, God is spirit (Jno 4:24); and second, mankind fell into sin and were expelled from God’s presence (Gen 3; Isa 59:2). Jesus surmounted both obstacles; He, Himself God, became a human being, so that others could see God in Him (John 1:14; 14:9-10; cf. 20:28); and being sinless, He died for people, so that their sinfulness no longer keeps them from entering into fellowship with God (Jn 1:29; Rm 5:1-11).

Nelg: The phrase “in the bosom” [eis ton kolpon] or “in closest relationship” refers to the unmatched intimacy of Jesus’ relationship with the Father, which enabled Him to reveal the Father in an unprecedented way.

Nelg: Just a note on the phrase “only begotten God.” There is a question as to whether the original reading here is “monogenes huios” or “monogenes theos.” With the information from MS P66 and P75, both of which read “monogenes theos,” the preponderance of the evidence now leans in the direction of the “one of a kind God. Reason? 1. It has superior MS support; 2. It represents the more difficult reading; 3. It serves as a more proper climax to the entire prologue, attributing deity to the Son by way of inclusion with 1:1 and 1:14; 4. It seems o account best for the other variants. More than likely the “monogenes huios” represents a scribe's assimilation of 3:16, 18.

Jehovah, “the greatest teacher of all.” (Job 36:22, Today’s English Version) Focusing on the Father’s teaching, Jesus next says: “It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.’”—John 6:45. Surely, it would be a privilege to be among those of whom the prophet Isaiah wrote: “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:13) Nelg: Parallels the passage in Jer 31:31ff. “All shall know the LORD.”

Jehovah first became both Father and Teacher when he created his only-begotten Son, the prehuman Jesus. This one is called “the Word” because he is Jehovah’s Chief Spokesman. (John 1:1, 14; 3:16) The Word served “beside [the Father] as a master worker,” and he learned well from his Father’s teaching. (Proverbs 8:22, 30) In fact, he became the Agent, or instrumentality, through whom the Father created all other things, including spirit “sons of God.” How they must have rejoiced to be taught by God! (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Colossians 1:15-17) Later, the first human, Adam, was created. He too was a “son of God,” and the Bible reveals that Jehovah instructed him.—Luke 3:38; Genesis 2:7, 16, 17.

Jehovah God, the Creator, is the Grand Instructor, or Teacher, of his servants. (1Ki 8:36; Ps 27:11; 86:11; 119:102; Isa 30:20; 54:13) The creative works themselves teach that an all-wise God exists, and they provide a field for investigation and observation that to the present day has only been partially tapped. (Job 12:7-9) Additionally, by means of special revelations, Jehovah God has taught humans his name, purposes, and laws. (Compare Ex 4:12, 15; 24:12; 34:5-7.) Such revelations are found in God’s Word, the Bible, and serve as a basis for correct teaching regarding his will. (Ro 15:4; 2Ti 3:14-17) God’s spirit also functions as a teacher.—Joh 14:26.

Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was “the first-born of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was “the beginning of God’s creation.” (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). “Beginning” [Greek, ar·khe′] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the ‘beginner’ of God’s creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe′ more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of “beginning.” Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God’s invisible creations.

(Nelg – taken from a previous post)

Nelg: After reading the above, it is clear that you consider Jesus to be a created being. I do take exception to that interpretation. It is clear that Jesus is the “only begotten” God; so that is conception and not creation. The Word or Christ, the pre-incarnate Jesus was never created. He always existed in the form of God (Phil 2).

Colossians 1:15 [Hos estin eikon tou theou tou haoratou prototokos pases ktiseos] “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”

Colossians 1:16 “For in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities – all things have been created through Him and for Him.”

Colossians 1:17 “And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:18 “He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.”

Colossians 1:19 “For it was the good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him.”

Colossians 2:9 “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. . . “ [Hoti en auto katoikei pan to pleroma tes Theostetos somatikos.]

Nelg: The argument revolves around the phrase in verse 15, “firstborn of all creation.”

Nelg: Since we are speaking of the pre-existence of Christ, the word “prototokos” (firstborn) could not apply to the Word/Christ as coming into existence, for being born applies to the physical world of procreation. God did not bring Christ into existence in any “birth process” before time began! Especially since Christ is eternal and eternal has no beginning or ending. So it must have a different use when applied to the Christ. The Greek word for “firstborn” is a term with roots in the OT. When the word is used literally, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, whether of woman or beast (Ex 13:2). Prototokos, is an expression of rank, or preeminence and “first” and “born” no longer play into the meaning. Ephraim is a symbol for the kingdom of Israel; and Jeremiah 31:9 Ephraim’s older brother, Manasseh, was the “firstborn” (Gen 48:14), and the indication is that as “firstborn” it indicated his primacy (Gen 48:19). The “firstborn” (Col. 1:15) does not indicate the origin of the Second Person of the Godhead.

There is a precise Greek word to indicate the “first” of a particular created order; it is the term proto-ktistos. This word is defined by classical scholars Liddell & Scott as meaning “founded or created first” (p. 1400).

Nelg: This is not the term employed by Paul to depict Christ in the Colossian context, though the apostle had a term available should he have wanted to make that point. That he did not is significant.

Nelg: Balz and Schneider observe that prototokos in Colossians 1:15 emphasizes a “superiority of essence,” and it does not suggest that Christ is “a part of the creation himself, but [he] stands rather in a unique relationship to God, the ‘invisible’” (Vol. 3, p. 190).

Nelg: W. Michaelis, in the Kittel/Friedrich dictionary, notes that the “for” clause (that begins verse 16) provides the explanation for the term “firstborn,” namely that “all things owe their creation to Christ’s mediation.” He insists that the point “is not that Christ is the first creature”; rather, the thought being emphasized is “Christ’s supremacy over creation” (Bromiley, p. 968).

Nelg: Moreover, since the apostle affirms that Jesus created all things, it would follow logically that if he himself were a created being, he must have made himself!

Recognizing this necessary though absurd conclusion, the Watchtower Society presumptively inserted the term “other” into the New World Translation at verse 16; “because by means of him all [other] things were created.” Their use of brackets reveals awareness that there is no textual basis for the insertion.

Firstborn: Preeminent in His Resurrection

Nelg: Finally, the use of “firstborn” in verse 18 sheds light on the foregoing text. The Savior is described as “the firstborn from the dead” (cf. Rev. 1:5).

Jesus was not the “firstborn from the dead” as a consequence of being the first one ever to be raised from the dead. There were resurrections from death both in the Old Testament (cf. 1 Kgs. 17:8-24), and during the personal ministry of the Lord (cf. Jn. 11:17ff).

Nelg: Christ is “firstborn from the dead” in that he demonstrated his power over the grave. He was even instrumental in effecting his own resurrection (Jn. 2:19). Further, unlike others, who were resurrected, Jesus was raised to die “no more” (Rom. 6:9). He is the ever-living one who now has the “keys” over both death and Hades (Rev. 1:18).

Nelg: There is simply no justification for the notion that the pre-incarnate Word (Jn. 1:1,14) was a created being.

Nelg: In reality, there is no basis for a fanatical theory that Christ had an origin, a beginning. Of course they want to do this in order to deny the deity of Christ. Yet there are too many other passages that establish that very fact. For example the Christ predicted by the prophets would be “the everlasting” Father (Isa 9:6), Isaiah also prophesied that the one coming would be “the first and the last, and there is no God besides Me” (Isa 44:6). In the Book of Revelation, Jesus, speaking to John calls Himself “the first and the last” (1:17). Micah declares that his goings forth have been “from everlasting” (5:2). Christ is designated as “the Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 21:6; 22:13), which expression is applied to God earlier in the same document (1:8). The phrase constitutes a strong assertion of the true and eternal deity of Jesus Christ.

Nelg: Now, if the Creator, Jesus Christ, Jehovah, is eternal without a beginning and without end, wouldn’t that be saying that Jehovah, the LORD, is not eternal? Certainly it would! Think I’ll just forget about that dogma. I’ll stick with believing that Christ is eternal. It’s biblically correct.

Nelg: The other term “firstborn” speaks of Christ’s resurrection from the grave, as per the text. The significance is that Jesus, in taking on human sarx [flesh] became a mortal being and limited in what He could do and be as a mortal being. There are some who say that the resurrection of Jesus is just one of many resurrections in the Bible. Not so. Jesus’ resurrection was unique in that the body of Jesus was changed and was not resurrected back from the grave in a physical body; it was not the same as the one placed in the tomb. Jesus’ mortal body [subject to death and decay] was put into the tomb, but the body resurrected was immortal [never to die or decay, a body that was fitted for the eternal kingdom of God. NO ONE was ever raised with an immortal body but Jesus Christ. He only has immortality (1Tim 6:13-16). This is the body that was “first-born from the dead,” the “first-fruits of those whose body is asleep in the grave. It was unique like no other body. That is one of the reasons that Christ, the Word, became flesh that He might have a body that was subject to death and decay and He could be given a new resurrected, spiritual form of a new body (1Cor 15:20-58). This is the meaning that Paul, the apostle, is giving to the “first-born” from the dead (physical body), the spirit of the individual is already with Christ in the Paradise of God. These “spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23), are waiting for the “new body” they will receive at Christ’s return (1Thess 4:13-18). So the “first-born from the dead” has nothing to do with the eternality of Christ. He is eternal (Heb 914). His human flesh or body that He took on at birth die on the cross, but never faced decay because of the resurrection (Acts 2:29-32).

Nelg: The idea that Jesus was created is a contradiction of the Bible, and a mockery of the plan executed by God “who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but not has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and teacher (2Tim 1:9-11).

Nelg: By the way, I noticed the statement you made about the immortality of the soul. I don’t teach that. As you can see above, immortal has to do with the body only. And only one person has an immortal body at the present, Jesus. He made it possible for all those saved to has immortality, but that comes after the resurrection on the last day.

Nelg: (More later.)

Edited July 28, 2015 by Nelg

Fly · July 31, 2015

Does the Bible teach that all who are said to be part of the Trinity are eternal, none having a beginning?

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989276?q=the+First-Born+of+All+Creation&p=par#h=20

Col. 1:15, 16, RS: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.” In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first-born of all creation”? (1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof? (3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is panʹta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to panʹta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.

Rev. 1:1; 3:14, RS: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . . ‘And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: “The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [Greek, ar·kheʹ] of God’s creation.”’” (KJ, Dy, CC, and NW, as well as others, read similarly.) Is that rendering correct? Some take the view that what is meant is that the Son was ‘the beginner of God’s creation,’ that he was its ‘ultimate source.’ But Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon lists “beginning” as its first meaning of ar·kheʹ. (Oxford, 1968, p. 252) The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. According to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.”)

Prophetically, with reference to the Messiah, Micah 5:2 (KJ) says his “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Dy reads: “his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity.” Does that make him the same as God? It is noteworthy that, instead of saying “days of eternity,” RS renders the Hebrew as “ancient days”; JB, “days of old”; NW, “days of time indefinite.” Viewed in the light of Revelation 3:14, discussed above, Micah 5:2 does not prove that Jesus was without a beginning.

MyLadiesDaddy · July 31, 2015

Witnesses? Crazy face

Trying to discern the word of God without the Holy Spirit

is a work in futility.

Trying to convince those Holy Spirit filled Christians

what they KNOW to be true is false, is just plain IGNORANT.

Nelg · July 31, 2015

Witnesses? Crazy face

Trying to discern the word of God without the Holy Spirit

is a work in futility.

Trying to convince those Holy Spirit filled Christians

what they KNOW to be true is false, is just plain IGNORANT.

Agreed. However, some who read the posts may be confused and need answers. Most of what is put out by Fly is not his study, but is the standard arguments by the Watchtower Society. They must hold to their position to have a reason for rejecting Jesus as Lord and Christ. By don't so, they declare that they are not "Christian," they have not received the indwelling Spirit, and are lost. My words may not be received by Fly, but they may help someone who is seeking truth and understanding about God: the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

You are correct about trying to convince someone who has the Holy Spirit and who has studied the word of God, to believe in their false teaching is futile. My conviction of who Jesus, God in the flesh, is not based on another's words, but is a conviction born from years of study. Thus my faith is "the substance [assurance] of things hoped for the conviction [evidence] of things not seen."

CRYPTO REWARDS!

When Another Christian Hurts You

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

ronscarpa

Fly

Nelg

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members

Similar Content

Testing the Rocker Badge!

Live Exchange Rate

Important Information