IMF Article 8 Section 4 is a Problem for a Big RV

[ewingm]

Iraq has been a member of IMF since 1945-46.  You need to read Article 8, Section 4, concerning the convertibility of currency.  Then we'll talk.

[dontlop]

No chit Sherlock

Hey

Did you just figure that out ?

Oh that's right

After they except obligations of imf article 8 we' lol talk

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha

You can't hold out that long

Ah ha ha ha ha ha

I read over what libya did prior to accepting article 8 obligations

They depegged from the dollar and pegged to the imf sdr

Their is so far no over night procedure to extremely increase the value of a currency's monitary units without consolidation or something to back it up ( but iraq could be the first to back its currency with its oil in the ground )

Can't say their never will be because every policy out there is man made

Why would anyone want to do such a thing

Answer is

To get the infrastructure in place

Like a person taking out a loan to build a manufacturing facility to manufacture their newly invented invention

Why struggle when the tools are knocking at your door

Can you say credit rating ?

International sovereign credit rating ?

It's Important to establish this and maintain it

It doesn't come easy

It takes years and years

They don't just issue triple AAA credit ratings to any one

The ability to pay external debts

Oil in the ground

Edited November 23, 2014 by dontlop

[Texstorm]

Either way I would expect monetary reform be it RI/RV/RD/deleted zeros, something will change if they want to do businesses with the modern world. Nothing ever stays the same and I am looking forward to Iraq's upcoming events.I have only looked at my dinars once since they were purchased and that was because I had to move them. Yes I have hopes and dreams like the rest and I do believe this ride is about over. BRING IT ON BABY !

[ewingm]

You are missing the point of Section 4.  If a big RV of the iraqi dinar occurs, the nations who have exchanged their currency for speculator's dinars, will want to exchange the dinars back to the CBI for their own currency.  The US is probably the biggest holder of dinar outside the borders of iraq.  It will all flood in if an RV were to occur AND you were able to exchange in US banks (which you can't by the way).  The CBI does not have reserves in dollars to cover the Section 4 reimbursement required by nations holding large amounts of exchanged dinars.

[dontlop]

The cbi doesn't issue any currency but dinar

Just like the USA doesn't issue Chinese yaun

China can't show up at the U.S. treasury and demand Chinese yaun

The treasury doesn't issue yaun

The dollar is backed by goods and services not other currencies

Iraq can do the same thing

China can only get final redemption by spending those dollars in the USA for goods and services

All fiat currencies are set up the same

They are backed by goods and services not gold or other currencies

Some countrys peg their exchange rate to another but those exchange regimes are subject to change if the govt wants to

If China decides to spend their dollars in the USA they would need a couple years to spend them all

In the mean time they would need to lay off a hundred million workers in China

So they just hold them as an asset to shore up their own currency

They are stuck with the dollar

Look how the United nations takes 5% of Iraqs oil revenue until it's obligations to kuwait is fulfilled

They can do the same thing with its currency value

Take a trillion dollars loan out against their oil in the ground

And since they have 17 trillion dollars in "proven" reserves

They can pay 5% of oil revenue until the loan is paid off

It's called credit

They dont need to pay every cent up front for anything

They can take 50 years to pay it off if they choose

They don't need to sell all their oil to do it

The ability to pay is key

And their ability to pay is represented by the oil in the ground

[ewingm]

The US Treasury will not want to hold onto 20 Trillion exchanged dinars IF an RV was announced, and IF banks in this country took them in.  The Treasury has no use for 20 Trillion dinar.  It will request phyical  exchange with the CBI through Article 8, Section 4.  You need to read Section 4 thoroughly.  It describes the exchange as in the CURRENCY of the country requesting.  The US would request exchange of 20 Trillion dinars in DOLLARS.  The CBI does not hold anywhere near that amount.  Maybe 80 billion at most.  Section 4 will prevent any significant RV of the dinar.  That's why a gradual increase in value over time, or an RD is the most logical scenario for the iraq dinar.

[dontlop]

It would be a wonderful thing if China did spend all their dollars in the USA to redeem them

Our economy would boom

If they choose to hold them , they will be devalued each year untill they are worthless

That's the incentive to spend them instead of holding them

China isn't smart enough to realize they are losing money every year by holding the dollar

They think they can gather up all the dollars and we will be broke

Nope

We just print more and devalue theirs accordingly to the amount of new dollars we print up

We're not going to go without a currency because China thinks they are going to make us go broke

We print up the necessary amount to live the way we live

The US Treasury will not want to hold onto 20 Trillion exchanged dinars IF an RV was announced, and IF banks in this country took them in.  The Treasury has no use for 20 Trillion dinar.  It will request phyical  exchange with the CBI through Article 8, Section 4.  You need to read Section 4 thoroughly.  It describes the exchange as in the CURRENCY of the country requesting.  The US would request exchange of 20 Trillion dinars in DOLLARS.  The CBI does not hold anywhere near that amount.  Maybe 80 billion at most.  Section 4 will prevent any significant RV of the dinar.  That's why a gradual increase in value over time, or an RD is the most logical scenario for the iraq dinar.

All currencies are exchangable into petro dollars

Why would you just make up a 20 trillion dinar figure with nothing to back that up?

Your already starting your bs

The biggest problem with revaluing the dinar is the amount of increase of imports the Iraqis themselves make

They would all be buying products from around the world creating a huge external debt

Increasing the dinar to a penny or a Ike is an option

They have thousands of options

Nothing is set in stone

How could they limit the imports

Well

The same way they always have

Tarriffs , fees ,

Only let them buy 50 cents on the dollar for imported goods and give them 95 cents on the dollar for domestic products

Creating incentive to manufacture their own goods

World trade

Less tarriifs for raw materials than retailed finished products

So they import iron ore and other types of raw materials meant for manufacturing

building a chicken farm instead of importing processed frozen chicken

Build a huge farming community for farm animals as well as dairy farms and agriculture to grow the food for the farm animals

Build catfish farms

What ever

The knowledge is avaliable on the Internet

They just need to open their doors

Let me hear you say it ewingm

Oil in the ground

Now I'm not telling you to buy dinar

But I'm not telling you not to either

You or I dont know if it's a good idea

It's not my money

It's theirs

Don't spend any more than you can afford

[ewingm]

The iraq dinar currency speculation is Unique to the world.  There has been no other situation historically, where a nation's physical currency was wholesaled out to the world for purely speculative purposes.  And because the speculators are holding 20-30 Trillion dinar, waiting for a RV announcement that will make them all millionaires, the exchange of dinars for dollars will be unprecedented.  Essentially there would be a mass stampede of speculators, ALL trying to exchange dinar for the currency of their choosing.  This has NO historical precedent.  It is UNIQUE to monetary history.  And the IMF will not allow such a mess to happen based on Article 8, Section 4.  The IMF Knows that the CBI could not make the national requests for exchanges from their reserves

[v-star 650]

you both make a good  point on the same topic,  ewingm  seems  to be  left ,  and  don`t  lop  is  right ,  of  vise versa ----  what  seems to be the idea of Iraqi citizens , is the just want their dinar to have a value ----- the statement let out about  25,ooo dinar will value to 2500 dinar value  is  a  big deal ........  will it take  chapter 8 to do it ?  I got no idea what will move the values ,  I hope  that it happens  2015 date line ....  can ether of you two  break down the  ----  step to step idea  we might be seeing  on  how dinar might  move in value ?   beside  the  idea of  central bank  saying  we dropped zero`s  today  tomorrow  the value  of dinar  is  this new amount .......   thanks for the effort  to help us  figure  the next step  guys    jeep

[dontlop]

Please

Reveal your sources of 20 trillion dinar around the world with the information and its link to your numbers

What better way to distribute their currency is there ?

If the dinar comes out at a higher rate and is only redeemable for goods and services in iraq for final redemption like all fiat currencies that guarentees years and years of a productive economy

When the dinar returns to iraq at its new rate the value is returned with it .

You will be sending wealth to iraq for their Labors .

You don't think it will become worthless once it's spent do YA ?

When I spend a dollar at a store the dollar isn't devalued its value is just transfered to another individual

The same could be possible with the dinar

It does not get converted into another currency when it's spent its always a dinar valued at the value which the goi puts on it

[dontlop]

If I have a hundred dinars worth a hundred dollars that means it's also worth a hundred dollars worth of gold or a hundred dollars worth of any goods and services

Any way you look at it its worth a hundred dollars worth of what ever I want

So for my final redemption I buy a hundred dollars worth of iraqi figs

I get the figs and that hundred dollars worth of wealth is transferred from the USA to iraq along with those dinar that represent that wealth

That wealth doesn't disapear because I bought something from iraq

That wealth is now transferred to Iraq and then they can use it to buy a hundred dollars worth of goods from Russia or italy or Columbia

But the wealth remains somewhere and that wealth is represented by the wealth in the ground in Iraq

The oil

But I cannot demand iraq gives me someone else's currency for final redemption

No one is obligated any more to produce anything but goods and services for their currency

You can , if you choose, that exchange regime

But it's not a law that any govt must choose a certain exchange regime

We know which exchange regime they presently are using but those exchange regimes can change

Iraq needs to change quite a bit before those dinars change in value

Edited November 23, 2014 by dontlop

[ewingm]

I'm not talking about "wealth in the ground" or "goods and services".  Neither is the IMF.  Article 8, Section 4, speaks directly to CURRENY REDEMPTION  from one sovereign country to another.  If the US Treasury allows local exchange of dinar for dollars in local banks, all that dinar will wind up being transferred to the Fed.  The Fed will then petition the Iraq CBI for exchange of 20 Trillion physical dinars for 20 Trillion US dollars, if it RVed at 1 to 1.  That's what the IMF is saying.  And the IMF KNOWS the CBI does not have 20 Trillion US dollars in its reserves to exchange with.  Therefore a 1 to 1 RV would NOT be acceptable to the IMF, and if it is not acceptable to the IMF, NO banks in the US, or anywhere else for that matter, will honor the amount.  YOU WON'T GET PAID!  All dinarians need to read the Articles of the IMF, but especially  Article 8, Section 4.

Edited November 23, 2014 by ewingm

[dontlop]

You need to study up on what a fiat currency is

And forget the imf

They don't run anyone's country

They just monitor currency's and report on them so others are not in the dark like they were when saddam was running iraq

Your made up figures of 20 trillion dinar going to the fed are rediculous

I doubt there's a trillion dinar in the USA which is around a years worth of oil

And if they rv to a dime that's only a hundred billion dollars worth

Or half of Iraqs gdp for a year

All your getting paid crap is just that

Info you inhaled by a few gurus around the world

Because a guru pumper says something doesn't make it true or what everyone believes

You must of spent years on tony tnts site swallowing all his garbage as facts and think every one else did too

It's been reported that TNT used over 200 thousand fake screen names on his site

You were just one who was real

No one thinks what you think they think

Now please post your sources for your 20 trillion dinar ending up in the U.S. treasury

[ewingm]

There are no reliable sources for the amount of physical dinar out side of iraq.  We can only go by CBI numbers relating to "outside of banks" in iraq which is around 35 Trillion dinar.  Many have  estimated the number of dinarians in the world to be 5 million.  If each holds a piddly 1 million dinar, that's 5 Trillion dinar.  I know PERSONALLY of many people who hold 5 to 100 million dinar.  It is certainly not unusual for the average dinarian to hold 1-5 million dinar.  Just look at the Buy/Sell numbers on this forum for example.  So I will compromise with you and say that 15 Trillion dinar is held overseas.  If a 1 to 1 RV was announced and every one of the 15 Trillion were turned into petrodollars, Iraq would have to supply our 7 billion barrel annual oil consuption for 21 years!  And that's if there were no other sources of oil being bought or used in the US.  Ridiculous to even consider.

Edited November 23, 2014 by ewingm

[rockfl9]

-- the statement let out about  25,000 dinar will value to 2500 dinar value  is  a  big deal ........  will it take  chapter 8 to do it ?

I think that statement was a bogus article, a one zero lop wouldn't be worth the effort , they would have to do another one in 5 years. Present Iraqi regulations/laws restrict the movement of dinar or DOLLARS across the border. You must be a citizen or a company chartered to do business there to do that. That is what is at odds with Art.8..

So the "push the button" overnight RV is IMPOSSIBLE without a change in their regulations/laws. If they announced a 1:1 RV dinar holders out of country are SOL!

[rwmountainboy]

Speculating here. What if the US Treasury forced us to cash in at 0.1 at certain locations not a bank.?  What if the US Treasury then held that dinar for future purchases of oil from Iraq?  Could that be something to consider?  I don't know the answer but I wonder if the IMF and US Treasury has that much power, why would they allow the dinar to come into the country in the first place. Doesn't it have to clear customs?  Don't you have to have some kind of agreement with the US to allow products/items of any kind to come in the US?

[dontlop]

Most lopster like people argue that the U.S. govt isn't in the oil business but I argue that the U.S. govt does buy oil for its strategic reserves they hold around 700 million barrels the worlds reserves add up to around 4 billion barrels in reserves

Any currency can be converted into petro dollars or else they would be banned from buying oil

Do YA know of any country that's denied oil ?

Iraqs oil is forsale and they do except petro dollars

[dinarbeleiver]

Have you cooled down ewingm, welcome back!

Ewingm can you post section 4 of article 8

[ewingm]

You ask a good question rwmountainboy.  The import of iraqi dinar occurred mostly through Jordan I believe.  There is a lot of "speculation" as to just how legitimate the wholesaling of iraqi dinars out of country actually is.  The "registration" of dealers by the Treasury is a token, and carries no safeguards to the buyers of currency through them.  The entire dinar buy/sell business is lacking appropriate safeguards, as is evidenced by some of the complaints listed on this forum.  And don't listen to people like Dontlop, who say the IMF doesn't matter.  The IMF matters very much, especially in whether any kind of RV of the dinar is acceptable to worldwide bankers.  Remember.  If its not ACCEPTABLE, you can't exchange for that amount.  Period.  Don't listen to the gurus that spout lies about this.  They either don't know the rules of monetary exchange, or are simply lying to you.

Edited November 23, 2014 by ewingm

[rockfl9]

There are no reliable sources for the amount of physical dinar out side of iraq.  We can only go by CBI numbers relating to "outside of banks" in iraq which is around 35 Trillion dinar.  Many have  estimated the number of dinarians in the world to be 5 million.  If each holds a piddly 1 million dinar, that's 5 Trillion dinar.  I know PERSONALLY of many people who hold 5 to 100 million dinar.  It is certainly not unusual for the average dinarian to hold 1-5 million dinar.  Just look at the Buy/Sell numbers on this forum for example.  So I will compromise with you and say that 15 Trillion dinar is held overseas.  If a 1 to 1 RV was announced and every one of the 15 Trillion were turned into petrodollars, Iraq would have to supply our 7 billion barrel annual oil consuption for 21 years!  And that's if there were no other sources of oil being bought or used in the US.  Ridiculous to even consider.

The UST does not deal with individuals , It is legally restricted from doing so. The citizens deal with banks which are regulated by the FED. The FED is not allowed to compete with private business , i.e. OIL. The FED will only allow banks to buy dinar only if they are assured the CBI will honor them. Indirectly the GOI says it cannot.

In case you haven't read the news lately , the US is starting to produce so much more OIL , we are considering exporting some!

[dinarbeleiver]

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/issues/issues38/ei38.pdf

Can we decifer this

And this

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp04188.pdf

[rwmountainboy]

Ewingm what about my other questions.  What if they RV'd to .01 cents and forced us to cash in. Is that possible?

 

I can't get my head around that they let the dinar come in knowing it's a scam.  Maybe I'm just a dumb hillbilly but I think the US gov't protects us to some degree.

[v-star 650]

o .k.    look at this  {      }    big  uhhhhhh       that is all I could  fit !     but seriously ,   lets  say  that  the dinar came out  at .05 per dinar ,  and  the u.s. treasury  decided  to go ahead  and start  letting  folks turn in dinar at local banks , and the  treasury  would  pick them up for  foreign currency reserve ,  now  they could hold the dinar  ,     knowing that the value will rise , but  the treasury could also  trade  the dinar at the .o5 cents per ... and  trade dinar for oil ...... a possibility ?     heyyyyyy r w  mountain guy  you know  you kind of look  like  pa  Walton    

[dontlop]

The imf doesn't set the official exchange rate of any currency

The official exchange rate is the guarenteed rate that a govt backs its currency

The IMF is an insurance policy for currency

They will loan money to countrys and help restructure their books to bring countrys out of the red and into the black

They offer services they are not mandatory

[rwmountainboy]

Vstar yes that is what I was wondering. Why can't they make us cash in at a low value?  Maybe the US will give us a time frame and then keep the dinar for themselves until it increases. All a possibly and yes that's me pa Walton a Virginia boy at heart.