Man ‘marries off daughter, 12’ in Islamic ceremony: bride believed sharia law ‘override’

[yota691]

Man ‘marries off daughter, 12’ in Islamic ceremony: bride believed sharia law ‘override’

• LEMA SAMANDAR
• THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
• JULY 22, 2014 12:00AM

 

•  

The child bride’s father outside court yesterday / Picture: Ross Schultz

• ‘Husband’ charged with 25 counts of sexual intercourse with a child

A CHILD bride allegedly married off at 12 was told sharia law “overrides” Australian law, court documents revealed.

In a case that has brought awareness of secret child brides in Australia, the girl’s father and the 26-year-old man she “wed” were charged in February over numerous child sex offences.

Documents that formed part of a successful apprehended violence order application by police at the time against the girl’s “husband” state that the young girl “believed or had been informed that sharia law overrides the Australian law”.

 

The 26-year-old man accused of marrying a 12-year-old girl.

 

 

“She stated that together with the accused they had been trying to get him registered as her legal guardian with Centrelink in order to obtain any welfare benefits they could,” the court documents state.

The police allege in the AVO document that the 26-year-old man, who was charged with 25 counts of sexual intercourse with a child, admitted to officers on the day he was arrested that he had had sex with the girl daily since the religious ceremony in the living room of the girl’s Hunter Valley home on January 12.

“When questioned on this he showed no remorse and was confident that in doing this he had committed no crime,” the police documents state. His matter is still before the courts and he is being held at Villawood Detention Centre after his student visa was revoked.

The child and the Lebanese university student met at a mosque through the girl’s 62-year-old father who is a Muslim convert, police alleged.

The girl’s father, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is charged with procuring a child for sex and accessory before the fact to sexual intercourse with a child.

Dressed in a traditional Islamic tunic, the father-of-seven fronted Burwood Local Court yesterday where he was committed to stand trial in the Sydney District Court.

 

His lawyer Mario Licha said outside court the father would be defending the charges.

 

 

The alleged child bride, who is now 13, and her eight-year-old sister remain in the care of the Department of Community Services.

 

[Indraman]

_{What kinda father would do this to his daughter? A very sick man, that is!}

 

_Indy

[DiiDii]

Excellent that the Australian government enforcing child protection laws and sending

this message...

 Sharia law must not come before government law.

 

Documents that formed part of a successful apprehended violence order application by police at the time against the girl’s “husband” state that the young girl “believed or had been informed that sharia law overrides the Australian law”.
 

 

“When questioned on this he showed no remorse and was confident that in doing this he had committed no crime,” the police documents state. His matter is still before the courts and he is being held at Villawood Detention Centre after his student visa was revoked.

The child and the Lebanese university student met at a mosque through the girl’s 62-year-old father who is a Muslim convert, police alleged.

The girl’s father, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is charged with procuring a child for sex and accessory before the fact to sexual intercourse with a child.

Dressed in a traditional Islamic tunic, the father-of-seven fronted Burwood Local Court yesterday where he was committed to stand trial in the Sydney District Court.

 

[Djorgie]

Yea well, "sharia law" is obviously a cover for pedophilia...

 

This is the work of the adversary and anyone who believes that it is okay or good to do these kind of things have been sadly deceived... Personally I think the majority of these men as I stated above, are just sick, perverted, pedophiles and they use religion as a guise to promote it and enable themselves to commit these crimes against young girls believing that they won't be held accountable for their actions.

[ronscarpa]

Let's hope the Australian Gov't presses the issue and prosecutes them both to the fullest extent of the law. It's amazing that the husband wanted to get gov't benefits out of the deal because of her age...clearly criminal intent at every level...!   

Thanks for the article Yota (+1)   

[waterman13]

A woman is when she becomes one, (has her first period). Don't be indoctrinated into man's teaching and laws. Do you know how old Rachael was when Jacob "married" her? Read the book of Jasher and it will tell you she was 10! Just sayin'

Wm13

[ronscarpa]

Waterman13, the article regards modern day Australia with current laws in place for the benefit of the people of the nation....and is not a commentary on womanhood per se.  That being said, I'm not so sure the age you stated from Jasher is correct....remember, Jacob saw her and considered her very beautiful, then he had to work for her for 7 years, but ended up with Leah first. You know the rest of the story - but, if she was 10, then she was only 3 when Jacob first saw her. That's a bit of a stretch.  JASHER is only one of the non-canonical historical records, and lends some valuable expanded information to the Biblical record, however it is in conflict with several other historical records. So.....

 

Following is information taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia for you:

 

 

 

JewishEncyclopedia

 

JewishEncyclopedia.co

 The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia

 

search tips & recommendations

 

RACHEL ( = "a ewe").

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Table of Contents

• —Biblical Data:
• —In Rabbinical Literature:
• Rachel and Leah.
• Her Self-Abnegation.
• "Rachel Mourning for Her Children."

—Biblical Data:

Laban's younger daughter, who became one of Jacob's wives (Gen. xxix. 26-28). Her first meeting with Jacob occurred at a well near Haran, whither she had taken the flocks for water. As she was beautiful and well favored, Jacob fell in love with her and agreed to serve Laban for seven years on the condition that at the end of that time Rachel should become his wife. Through the fraud of Laban, Jacob's marriage with Rachel took place after he had married her elder sister, Leah, who, though less loved than Rachel, became the mother of four sons, while the latter was childless. This filled Rachel with envy, and, having expressed her feelings to Jacob, she bade him take her handmaid Bilhah to wife in order that she might obtain a family through her (xxix. 9-12, 17-18, 31; xxx. 3).

Later, Rachel became the mother of Joseph (xxx. 22-24). Rachel and Leah persuaded their husband to flee from Laban's house, and at the moment of Jacob's flight Rachel stole her father's teraphim. She put them in the "furniture" of the camel on which she sat, and when her father came to search for them she pleaded sickness (xxxi. 14-16, 19, 34-35). At his meeting with Esau, Jacob showed his particular affection for Rachel by placing her last, with her son Joseph (xxxiii. 2, 7). Jacob was on his way back to his native country when Rachel died while giving birth to her second son, Benjamin. Her death occurred not far from Ephrath, and she was buried on the road leading thither, Jacob setting up a pillar on her grave to perpetuate her memory (xxxv. 16-20). Rachel and her sister Leah are mentioned as the two women who founded the house of Israel, Rachel, though younger, being mentioned first (Ruth iv. 11). Jeremiah represents Rachel, weeping for her children being driven into captivity, as the personification of tenderness (Jer. xxxi. 14).

—In Rabbinical Literature:

Rachel and Leah were twin sisters, fourteen years old when Jacob came to their father's house; consequently they were twenty-one years old at the time of their marriage to Jacob (Seder 'Olam Rabbah ii.). The terms "elder" and "younger," applied respectively to Leah and Rachel (Gen. xxix. 16), are explained by the Rabbis as referring to the divine gifts bestowed upon their descendants; for while royalty and the priesthood remained permanently with Leah's descendants, they were held only temporarily by Rachel's—royalty with Joseph and Saul, and the priesthood with the tabernacle of Shiloh (Gen. R. lxx. 15). In other respects the two sisters were alike, both being ancestresses of kings, heroes, prophets, judges, and conquerors (ib. lxx. 14; Tan., Wayeẓe, 13).

Rachel and Leah.

When Jacob met Rachel near the well, and proposed to marry her, she informed him that she had an elder sister, and that as her father was of a deceitful nature, he (Jacob) would be imposed upon. Jacob replied that he was her father's equal in trickery; and he agreed with Rachel upon certain signs which would enable him to recognize her. Later, when Leah was given in marriage instead of Rachel, the latter revealed the signs to her sister in order to spare her from being disgraced by Jacob. It was through the merit of her discretion that Rachel became the ancestress of King Saul, who also was discreet (Meg. 13b; B. B. 123a; Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxix. 12; Targ. pseudo-Jonathan ad loc.).

Rachel's envy at her sister's fertility (comp. Gen. xxx. 1) is only once (Gen. R. xlv. 6) interpreted by the Rabbis as indicating one of the characteristics of women. Most of the Rabbis consider the idea of Rachel being an envious woman as incompatible with what has been previously said of her. They declare that Rachel was not envious of her sister's fertility, but of her righteousness; she thought that if Leah had not been a better woman than she, she would not have had children. Besides, Rachel was afraid that her father, seeing that she had no children by Jacob, might marry her to Esau (Midr. Agadat Bereshit li. 1; Gen. R. lxxi. 9). She therefore insisted that Jacob pray to God for children, arguing that his father, Isaac, had done so(comp. Gen. xxv. 21). Jacob objecting on the ground that his father had one wife only, while he himself had two, and that though one of them was childless, he had children by the other, she urged him to follow Abraham's example, and to take her handmaid for a wife (Midr. Agadat Bereshit l.c.; comp. Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxx. 1; Tan., Wayeẓe, 19; Gen. R. lxxi. 10). According to the "Sefer ha-Yashar" (section "Wayeẓe," p. 46a, Leghorn, 1870), Rachel herself prayed God to give her children, and God finally answered her prayer.

Her Self-Abnegation.

In the episode of the mandrakes, when Leah reproached her sister for having robbed her of her husband (Gen. xxx. 14-15), Rachel's feelings were wounded, and she replied bitterly: "Jacob is not thy husband; he is mine. It was for my sake that he came here and served our father for so many years. Had I not revealed to thee our signs, he would never have become thy husband" (Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxx. 15). The affair of the mandrakes is generally represented by the Rabbis as unfavorable to Rachel; and it was due to her mode of obtaining them (comp. Gen. l.c.) that she was not buried in the cave of Machpelah by the side of her husband (Gen. R. lxxii. 2). God remembered Rachel on Rosh ha-Shanah (Ber. 29a; R. H. 11a), and it was particularly her self-abnegation at the time of her sister's marriage which gained for her the divine clemency (Gen. R. lxxiii. 2; Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxx. 22).

Rachel's words at the birth of Joseph, "The Lord shall add to me another son" (Gen. xxx. 24), show that she was a prophetess. She knew that Jacob was to have only twelve sons, and, Joseph being the eleventh son, she prayed for only one son more (Tan., Wayeẓe, 20). According to Gen. R. (lxxii. 6), this prayer of Rachel caused Leah's seventh child, which at the time of conception was a son, to be transformed into a daughter; otherwise Rachel would have been the mother of only one son (comp., however, Ber. 60a, and Targ. pseudo-Jonathan to Gen. xxx. 21).

The Rabbis differ as to the reason why Rachel stole her father's teraphim. Some consider that she did so in order to conceal Jacob's flight; others, that her object was to turn her father from idolatry (Pirḳe R. El. xxxvi.; Gen. R. lxxiv. 4; "Sefer ha-Yashar," section "Wayeẓe," p. 47a).

As Rachel's death occurred fifteen years after her marriage, she must have died at the age of thirty-six (Seder 'Olam Rabbah l.c.; Midr. Tadshe, in Epstein, "Mi-Ḳadmoniyyot ha-Yehudim," Supplement, p. xxi., where the number 37 must be corrected to 36). The "Sefer ha-Yashar" (section "Wayishlaḥ," p. 56b), however, gives her age at the time of her death as forty-five. Rachel's early decease was due, according to the general opinion of the Rabbis, to Jacob's involuntary curse uttered when Laban was searching for the teraphim, "With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live" (Gen. xxxi. 32), he not knowing that Rachel had taken the images. R. Judan's opinion, however, was that Rachel died before Leah because, although she was the younger sister, she spoke before Leah when they were addressed by their husband (ib. xxxi. 14; Midr. Agadat Bereshit li. 3; Pirḳe R. El. l.c.; Gen. R. lxxiv. 3, 6).

Traditional Tomb of Rachel.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)"Rachel Mourning for Her Children."

Rachel's death was so deeply felt by Jacob that he considered it the greatest of all his sorrows (Ruth R. i. 3). He buried her on the road to Ephrath because he foresaw that the Israelites, when driven into captivity along that road, would need her intercession with God in their behalf (Midr. Agadah toGen. xxxv. 19; Gen. R. lxxxii. 11). Jer. xxxi. 15 (see Biblical Data, above) is the source of the midrashic legend that when the Israelites were driven into captivity by Nebuzar-adan, and the supplications of the Patriarchs and of Moses proved of no avail, Rachel arose from her grave and implored God's clemency, basing her plea upon her own self-abnegation with regard to her sister. God thereupon promised her the restoration of Israel (Lam. R., Petiḥta, 25).

Rachel was one of the four Jewish matriarchs, all of whom were prophetesses (Ber. 60a), and who are often referred to in the liturgy, Rachel being mentioned before Leah. As the four different plants with which the Jews were commanded to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev. xxiii. 40) are considered by the Rabbis to symbolize the four matriarchs, Rachel, who died the youngest, they consider symbolized by the willows of the brook, which fade sooner than any other plant (Lev. R. xxx. 10).

Edited July 26, 2014 by ronscarpa

[ronscarpa]

And if you note, her father is a red bearded Australian who converted to Islam......!

It sounds like his brains fell out.   

[Djorgie]

ronscarpa,

 

I have to agree with you on this one... A 3 year old would not be fetching water at a well which is where he first saw her and yeah, then there was the 7 years in between when he agreed to work in order to marry her after so, 10 she was not...

 

I also stand by the fact that YHWH/God created man (as in a man and a woman) as fully mature adults and not as children (in the sense we are speaking) and that should tell us something about the situation when it comes to these matters. Children are children and let's not forget what our Father says what he will do to those who hurt any of these little ones.

 

On the subject of becoming an actual "woman", I don't believe that just because when a young girl, yes, even sometimes as young as 9 or 10 gets her menstruation does not make her a woman in the sense that she is mature enough physically, emotionally or spiritually to be in a sexual situation. It simply tells us that she is just maturing some physically but, in no way does this mean she nor her body is ready for these kind of things. A young girl's body still has a lot of growing to do even after this takes place and what 10 year old has the mental capacity to truly comprehend on this level?

 

I believe what YHWH/God places on my heart and children are children no matter how much this twisted world attempts to manipulate that.

[waterman13]

I'm not condoning or condemning any religion or belief I'm just saying that this is history, Jasher is mentioned in two books of the Bible Joshua and II Samuel. You can start in the 29th Chapter. Please get the copy of Jasher by J.H. Parry & Company 1810. (complete Exhausted Edition) Good book!

Wm13

[gymrat76541]

Little girls are property to be used as the men see fit in many Middle Eastern countries but you can not bring that junk into Western/modern countries!

 

Stupid people! WOW

[waterman13]

 

Waterman13, the article regards modern day Australia with current laws in place for the benefit of the people of the nation....and is not a commentary on womanhood per se.  That being said, I'm not so sure the age you stated from Jasher is correct....remember, Jacob saw her and considered her very beautiful, then he had to work for her for 7 years, but ended up with Leah first. You know the rest of the story - but, if she was 10, then she was only 3 when Jacob first saw her. That's a bit of a stretch.  JASHER is only one of the non-canonical historical records, and lends some valuable expanded information to the Biblical record, however it is in conflict with several other historical records. So.....

 

Following is information taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia for you:

 

 

 

JewishEncyclopedia

 

JewishEncyclopedia.co

 The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia

 

search tips & recommendations

 

RACHEL ( = "a ewe").

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Table of Contents

• —Biblical Data:
• —In Rabbinical Literature:
• Rachel and Leah.
• Her Self-Abnegation.
• "Rachel Mourning for Her Children."

—Biblical Data:

Laban's younger daughter, who became one of Jacob's wives (Gen. xxix. 26-28). Her first meeting with Jacob occurred at a well near Haran, whither she had taken the flocks for water. As she was beautiful and well favored, Jacob fell in love with her and agreed to serve Laban for seven years on the condition that at the end of that time Rachel should become his wife. Through the fraud of Laban, Jacob's marriage with Rachel took place after he had married her elder sister, Leah, who, though less loved than Rachel, became the mother of four sons, while the latter was childless. This filled Rachel with envy, and, having expressed her feelings to Jacob, she bade him take her handmaid Bilhah to wife in order that she might obtain a family through her (xxix. 9-12, 17-18, 31; xxx. 3).

Later, Rachel became the mother of Joseph (xxx. 22-24). Rachel and Leah persuaded their husband to flee from Laban's house, and at the moment of Jacob's flight Rachel stole her father's teraphim. She put them in the "furniture" of the camel on which she sat, and when her father came to search for them she pleaded sickness (xxxi. 14-16, 19, 34-35). At his meeting with Esau, Jacob showed his particular affection for Rachel by placing her last, with her son Joseph (xxxiii. 2, 7). Jacob was on his way back to his native country when Rachel died while giving birth to her second son, Benjamin. Her death occurred not far from Ephrath, and she was buried on the road leading thither, Jacob setting up a pillar on her grave to perpetuate her memory (xxxv. 16-20). Rachel and her sister Leah are mentioned as the two women who founded the house of Israel, Rachel, though younger, being mentioned first (Ruth iv. 11). Jeremiah represents Rachel, weeping for her children being driven into captivity, as the personification of tenderness (Jer. xxxi. 14).

—In Rabbinical Literature:

Rachel and Leah were twin sisters, fourteen years old when Jacob came to their father's house; consequently they were twenty-one years old at the time of their marriage to Jacob (Seder 'Olam Rabbah ii.). The terms "elder" and "younger," applied respectively to Leah and Rachel (Gen. xxix. 16), are explained by the Rabbis as referring to the divine gifts bestowed upon their descendants; for while royalty and the priesthood remained permanently with Leah's descendants, they were held only temporarily by Rachel's—royalty with Joseph and Saul, and the priesthood with the tabernacle of Shiloh (Gen. R. lxx. 15). In other respects the two sisters were alike, both being ancestresses of kings, heroes, prophets, judges, and conquerors (ib. lxx. 14; Tan., Wayeẓe, 13).

Rachel and Leah.

When Jacob met Rachel near the well, and proposed to marry her, she informed him that she had an elder sister, and that as her father was of a deceitful nature, he (Jacob) would be imposed upon. Jacob replied that he was her father's equal in trickery; and he agreed with Rachel upon certain signs which would enable him to recognize her. Later, when Leah was given in marriage instead of Rachel, the latter revealed the signs to her sister in order to spare her from being disgraced by Jacob. It was through the merit of her discretion that Rachel became the ancestress of King Saul, who also was discreet (Meg. 13b; B. B. 123a; Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxix. 12; Targ. pseudo-Jonathan ad loc.).

Rachel's envy at her sister's fertility (comp. Gen. xxx. 1) is only once (Gen. R. xlv. 6) interpreted by the Rabbis as indicating one of the characteristics of women. Most of the Rabbis consider the idea of Rachel being an envious woman as incompatible with what has been previously said of her. They declare that Rachel was not envious of her sister's fertility, but of her righteousness; she thought that if Leah had not been a better woman than she, she would not have had children. Besides, Rachel was afraid that her father, seeing that she had no children by Jacob, might marry her to Esau (Midr. Agadat Bereshit li. 1; Gen. R. lxxi. 9). She therefore insisted that Jacob pray to God for children, arguing that his father, Isaac, had done so(comp. Gen. xxv. 21). Jacob objecting on the ground that his father had one wife only, while he himself had two, and that though one of them was childless, he had children by the other, she urged him to follow Abraham's example, and to take her handmaid for a wife (Midr. Agadat Bereshit l.c.; comp. Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxx. 1; Tan., Wayeẓe, 19; Gen. R. lxxi. 10). According to the "Sefer ha-Yashar" (section "Wayeẓe," p. 46a, Leghorn, 1870), Rachel herself prayed God to give her children, and God finally answered her prayer.

Her Self-Abnegation.

In the episode of the mandrakes, when Leah reproached her sister for having robbed her of her husband (Gen. xxx. 14-15), Rachel's feelings were wounded, and she replied bitterly: "Jacob is not thy husband; he is mine. It was for my sake that he came here and served our father for so many years. Had I not revealed to thee our signs, he would never have become thy husband" (Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxx. 15). The affair of the mandrakes is generally represented by the Rabbis as unfavorable to Rachel; and it was due to her mode of obtaining them (comp. Gen. l.c.) that she was not buried in the cave of Machpelah by the side of her husband (Gen. R. lxxii. 2). God remembered Rachel on Rosh ha-Shanah (Ber. 29a; R. H. 11a), and it was particularly her self-abnegation at the time of her sister's marriage which gained for her the divine clemency (Gen. R. lxxiii. 2; Midr. Agadah to Gen. xxx. 22).

Rachel's words at the birth of Joseph, "The Lord shall add to me another son" (Gen. xxx. 24), show that she was a prophetess. She knew that Jacob was to have only twelve sons, and, Joseph being the eleventh son, she prayed for only one son more (Tan., Wayeẓe, 20). According to Gen. R. (lxxii. 6), this prayer of Rachel caused Leah's seventh child, which at the time of conception was a son, to be transformed into a daughter; otherwise Rachel would have been the mother of only one son (comp., however, Ber. 60a, and Targ. pseudo-Jonathan to Gen. xxx. 21).

The Rabbis differ as to the reason why Rachel stole her father's teraphim. Some consider that she did so in order to conceal Jacob's flight; others, that her object was to turn her father from idolatry (Pirḳe R. El. xxxvi.; Gen. R. lxxiv. 4; "Sefer ha-Yashar," section "Wayeẓe," p. 47a).

As Rachel's death occurred fifteen years after her marriage, she must have died at the age of thirty-six (Seder 'Olam Rabbah l.c.; Midr. Tadshe, in Epstein, "Mi-Ḳadmoniyyot ha-Yehudim," Supplement, p. xxi., where the number 37 must be corrected to 36). The "Sefer ha-Yashar" (section "Wayishlaḥ," p. 56b), however, gives her age at the time of her death as forty-five. Rachel's early decease was due, according to the general opinion of the Rabbis, to Jacob's involuntary curse uttered when Laban was searching for the teraphim, "With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live" (Gen. xxxi. 32), he not knowing that Rachel had taken the images. R. Judan's opinion, however, was that Rachel died before Leah because, although she was the younger sister, she spoke before Leah when they were addressed by their husband (ib. xxxi. 14; Midr. Agadat Bereshit li. 3; Pirḳe R. El. l.c.; Gen. R. lxxiv. 3, 6).

Traditional Tomb of Rachel.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)"Rachel Mourning for Her Children."

Rachel's death was so deeply felt by Jacob that he considered it the greatest of all his sorrows (Ruth R. i. 3). He buried her on the road to Ephrath because he foresaw that the Israelites, when driven into captivity along that road, would need her intercession with God in their behalf (Midr. Agadah toGen. xxxv. 19; Gen. R. lxxxii. 11). Jer. xxxi. 15 (see Biblical Data, above) is the source of the midrashic legend that when the Israelites were driven into captivity by Nebuzar-adan, and the supplications of the Patriarchs and of Moses proved of no avail, Rachel arose from her grave and implored God's clemency, basing her plea upon her own self-abnegation with regard to her sister. God thereupon promised her the restoration of Israel (Lam. R., Petiḥta, 25).

Rachel was one of the four Jewish matriarchs, all of whom were prophetesses (Ber. 60a), and who are often referred to in the liturgy, Rachel being mentioned before Leah. As the four different plants with which the Jews were commanded to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev. xxiii. 40) are considered by the Rabbis to symbolize the four matriarchs, Rachel, who died the youngest, they consider symbolized by the willows of the brook, which fade sooner than any other plant (Lev. R. xxx. 10).

 

The Jewish Encyclopaedia? WOW!

Get a grip, this is the most unbiased writings of all times. Rachael is the blessed one, not Leah. Get a grip people, know who is blessed and who is not. I don't care what or who the "Rabbis" considered or blessed I believe the Word.

Research this, you will find it true just like Ismael was not the chosen, (as being the first born), Isaac was, Esau was not the chosen one, Jacob was. Who was Jacobs' chosen? Joseph! It's not always the first born, in fact it never was. Was Reuben the chosen one?  NO! Was Noah's first son the chosen? No!  Was Abram (Abraham) the first born? NO! But, who was chosen?

 

Read the Word! Read the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch.

Wm13

[ronscarpa]

The Jewish Encyclopaedia? WOW!

Get a grip, this is the most unbiased writings of all times. Rachael is the blessed one, not Leah. Get a grip people, know who is blessed and who is not. I don't care what or who the "Rabbis" considered or blessed I believe the Word.

Research this, you will find it true just like Ismael was not the chosen, (as being the first born), Isaac was, Esau was not the chosen one, Jacob was. Who was Jacobs' chosen? Joseph! It's not always the first born, in fact it never was. Was Reuben the chosen one?  NO! Was Noah's first son the chosen? No!  Was Abram (Abraham) the first born? NO! But, who was chosen?

 

Read the Word! Read the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch.

Wm13

 

Waterman13 ... please don't get your pants in a wad ... we were discussing "Rachel's age", so that's why I posted what I did ... Not what's in these other books.  I've read all of them, and even have a four book parallel - The Bible, Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees.  I'm very aware what is in them, so please get over yourself.  Please read carefully what I wrote preceding the JE post above. I am totally a man of the WORD, and what it has to say. I'm not a follower of rabbinic opinion vs. what the Bible has to say, but I'm always open to truth. I don't believe in futile arguments that are based on opinion and have NO eternal value; so if I offended you - please forgive me.

Nuff said...I'm done with this thread...!   

[waterman13]

My pants aren't in a wad! I'm done with this thread too!

[Djorgie]

I apologize as well... My comments were not meant to upset anyone or agitate the disagreement. I just stated what I believe. We can't always agree on everything but, we can try to understand one another and definitely forgive one another for even the most petty things.

 

Blessings my Brothers and Sisters!

[ronscarpa]

I apologize as well... My comments were not meant to upset anyone or agitate the disagreement. I just stated what I believe. We can't always agree on everything but, we can try to understand one another and definitely forgive one another for even the most petty things.

 

Blessings my Brothers and Sisters!

 

Be Blessed Djorgie....Thanks for your humble spirit..! (+1) When I saw it I had to respond....RON   

[waterman13]

Ron, I forgive you no hard feelings. I love you and your postings.

Just frustrated I guess.

All is good!

Wm13

Edited July 30, 2014 by waterman13

[ronscarpa]

Ron, I forgive you no hard feelings. I love you and your postings.

Just frustrated I guess.

All is good!

Wm13

 

Ditto...Waterman13 - I always appreciate your posts (+1)...Be Blessed...RON