God's Word

[Heavyduty053]

Let me inject something here, that question has been arount longer than i can remember, If God wanted man to be good why did he create Satan or why don't God just get rid of Satan if he is the problem.

First God didn't create Satan, he was already an angel who decided upon himself that he wanted to be the most powerful of all including God himself. Satan tried to create and overthrow of the throne and was cast down. He was not created to mean hateful abusive cause temptations upon mankind this was his choice. After he was cast out of heaven he vowed to take as many of Gods creation away from him as he could in the time he has left, therefore he roams the earth day and night looking for souls to devour. Well guess what is is making a heck of a dent into his vow, guess thats why the scripture said, "Broad is the way of destruction, and there will be many that go there in and narrow is the way to eternal life, and few that find it.

Why don't God just do away with satan, when free will of choice was established on the cross, satan was already there watching and even thought Jesus conquered death and hell that final day on the cross, satan was allowed to tempt mankind every way imaginable because truth is God only wants the people who are faithful and who trys to do right. Satan's time for eternal destruction is coming and all who choose to follow him. Truth is this, on judgement day all of us will have to stand for ourself and answer for what we have or have not done. The worst being rejection of Jesus. If you are not welcomed into the joy of thy lord then satan's emps will be there to drag you screaming and crying into his domain of eternal torture. I am sure there are some who will disagree with me and thats alright i know whats coming and i will try to share the word of God as long as i am able to because thats what i am supposed to do.

[kliklok00]

my question is.........whose word? In my somewhat limited experience, 5 people can read the same passage and each can take it to mean something completely different. (Kinda like Iraq articles) How does one know if their interpretation is correct?

Exactly! Countless people "feel led" by "God's word," yet, there are uncountable versions of the Bible available today with ZERO originals. With all the "choices" available, it is no wonder that battles have raged for centuries over doctrine, creed, etc. Gee whiz, how many various denominations of the Christian church are in existence...all claiming the same God? How does that work? It seems the Bible is man's attempt to explain who/what God is...and while the attempt is noble, God is still shrouded in a sense of mystery that (in my opinion) will never go away.

[jgreene]

nothing like logging onto DINARVETS to see a 3 page debate bewteen the lost and found....lol

[doctorron3]

<br /><br /><br />

1. Why not just end satan then??

2. Hmm, well he is already aware of the choices we will make before creating us. So yes we are robots just ignorant ones according to your logic.

3. Why not just destroy him, why simply "boot" him? Makes absolutely no sense. God burns his human creations, but simply demotes satan to hell to rule there?? Ummmm ok. Yes man had a choice, a choice that god was AWARE of so why would he be surprised about the outcome of our choices??

4. He was around and visible yet they chose satan? ya ok

5. Umm, no god did condemn us. You are hung up on this idea that he gave us free will and thus a choice but for some reason you can not grasp the very basic infantile idea that your god is omniscient therefor he knows the choices we will make before creating us. WHY WOULD GOD CREATE PEOPLE KNOWING THEY WILL SIN???? lets take a poll and see if you'll be the first believer to actual address this issue for once.

"My point is we have freedom of choice, I think the day will come soon when God does says enough and that will be the 2nd return of Jesus Christ. "

- No we don't, not if your god is omniscient. For us to have been given free will either means A. your god is a sadistic monster worse than every dictator that ever lived, or B. it's simply not true. I'll go with the ladder.

[joekooltrips]

Exactly! Countless people "feel led" by "God's word," yet, there are uncountable versions of the Bible available today with ZERO originals. With all the "choices" available, it is no wonder that battles have raged for centuries over doctrine, creed, etc. Gee whiz, how many various denominations of the Christian church are in existence...all claiming the same God? How does that work? It seems the Bible is man's attempt to explain who/what God is...and while the attempt is noble, God is still shrouded in a sense of mystery that (in my opinion) will never go away.

Religion replaces GOD, and denominations replace "HIS" word with "Theirs". You have to read and compare if what the greeks translated, is what is actually written, i mean todays hebrew language has vowels, ancient hebrew does not. Hebrew is also a babylonian dialect , to some it's a verb, not even a language, but you have to do lots of digging to un-cover these truths and lies......

[doctorron3]

1. Why not just end Satan then??

Neo,

I only offer the scriptures as proof. Let me, please, lay this out. Hopefully in a simple fashion, then we can come back and discuss detail, if you so choose. In Rev 5:11 you have Myriads of Myriads, roughly 100 million angels. If you have a universe or even multi-verse, teeming with lower and higher dimensional beings, populated with those to whom you have given free choice, what do you do when one steps aside? (Actually the meaning of Apostasy, standing aside from the truth, first one, Satan. More on that later.) You cause one being to cease to exist for questioning you. Either it is free will or not. Even if no one questioned your ability to obliterate instantly a being that you created, at some point in time, someone would have said ‘why did you obliterate and what is the proof that you are right’?

When the biblical record of Job was inspired, the conversation between God and Satan revealed something very interesting. Satan goes to God and says; he only serves you for what he can get out of you. Job 2: 2, 3 “have you considered my servant Job? You will find no one like him on earth... Satan’s reply: Skin for Skin, There is nothing the man will grudge to save himself”. Yes, take everything away and he will curse you. So, really that challenge extends to all humans, Satan to God: “They only serve you for what they can get out of you”. (Lord, I will love you forever if the Dinar RV’s @ $3.80.)

Now, look at the Genesis account. Gen 3: 1 Satan asks the question: “Is it true that God has forbidden you to eat from any tree in the garden”? A simple question that leads to the deceptive conclusion that God is withholding knowledge from Adam and Eve and they really would be better off if they listened to him. 1 Timothy 2:14 says: “it was the woman yielding to deception, who fell into sin”.

So far, a pattern of challenges and lies, but there is so much more, however, for the sake of brevity, I will wind up soon. We next go to Jesus at John 8: 44. Here he speaks of Satan and reveals more: “Your father is the Devil and you choose to carry out your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and is not rooted in the truth: there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie he is speaking his own language for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Does it come together a little bit at this point? He was the first liar and why did he do such a thing? He exercised his free choice and made a challenge against God’s human creation, ultimately questioning His right to rule over them and calling Him a liar.

2 more things with Jesus to finish this off; after he was lead off into the wilderness from his baptism he was tempted by Satan. Especially we should look at Matthew 4:8, 9. “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory. ‘All these, he said, ‘I will give you, if you will only fall down and do me homage’. In those 2 verses there are a lot of things revealed, but especially pertinent to our discussion is what Satan wanted from Jesus, that is Homage or in fact worship.

Lastly, we see in the Lord’s Prayer a key to all of this. Many people pray this prayer thousands of times without even giving thought to the thing that Jesus put first. Mat 6:9 “our Father in Heaven, thy name be hallowed”. Hallowed: to honor as Holy or make Holy. One could assert that we are just saying Lord you are ‘Holy’. However, Jesus made that the most prominent part of the prayer for a key reason: Because Satan had called the Maker a liar and impugned the Holiness of His name. That is even why Jesus himself came and gave his life in our behalf:

To prove God is not a liar and to redeem us from the sin foisted on us by Satan and our progenitors. (To fulfill the law, to preach the good news and a few other things as well.)

To summarize: A created being chose to stand against God to procure praise and worship for himself, in effect to steal Adam and Eve from God. The True God, in His wisdom, chose not to wipe out Satan, humans, and the crown Jewel of his physical creation, the Earth, because he knew that it must be proved, beyond a doubt, that he was The True God. He allowed this to happen such that incontrovertible proof is given. Further, this proof being given to creation both visible and invisible shows that He is the one with the right to rule and to make rules.

[kliklok00]

1. Why not just end Satan then??

To summarize: A created being chose to stand against God to procure praise and worship for himself, in effect to steal Adam and Eve from God. The True God, in His wisdom, chose not to wipe out Satan, humans, and the crown Jewel of his physical creation, the Earth, because he knew that it must be proved, beyond a doubt, that he was The True God. He allowed this to happen such that incontrovertible proof is given. Further, this proof being given to creation both visible and invisible shows that He is the one with the right to rule and to make rules.

Ron...who is God "proving" all of this too? His own creations? I find it strange that a being who creates life feels compelled to have to prove anything to that very creation. And if that said creation doesn't believe this proof? Eternal punishment?

So God creates life...He then feels compelled to prove a point to this created life...and if His created life chooses to not believe the evidence it is condemned to an eternal torment for ever?

And on another point, it seems this "free will" or this gift of "choice" is a bit over rated---I mean if I utilize my free will and choose not to believe, I'm condemned to be tormented forever because of my "free" choice. Somehow I don't see how that is a "free" choice...its like having a gun to my head---choose Me or I pull the trigger and you die.

[doctorron3]

Ron...who is God "proving" all of this too? His own creations? I find it strange that a being who creates life feels compelled to have to prove anything to that very creation. And if that said creation doesn't believe this proof? Eternal punishment?

So God creates life...He then feels compelled to prove a point to this created life...and if His created life chooses to not believe the evidence it is condemned to an eternal torment for ever?

And on another point, it seems this "free will" or this gift of "choice" is a bit over rated---I mean if I utilize my free will and choose not to believe, I'm condemned to be tormented forever because of my "free" choice. Somehow I don't see how that is a "free" choice...its like having a gun to my head---choose Me or I pull the trigger and you die.

Really this was an answer about Satan.

Did you not think about it? First of all if he is truly a wise God, he would in fact care what his creatures think. A loving God would do so as well, he would care what the outcome for all creation would be as a result of this great controversy.

He at no time felt compelled to prove a point, a challenge was made to him. There were 3 possible outcomes: 1. destroy everything and start over, 2. Destroy Satan and dare anyone to question Him. 3. Prove His wisdom and let no one prevent His purpose from being fulfilled.

A loving God does not believe nor promote eternal torment, period. In the book of Jeremiah he plainly chastised the Israelites for burning their children in the Fire. In their false worship that they had promulgated on the hills and high places of Israel they had adopted the forms of paganism where they sacrificed their sons and their daughters in the Fire. The loving God said to them: "that was no command of mine, nor did it ever enter into my thought". He was angered by their devotion to these false gods which brought about the first destruction of their 'false' religious system.

Satan, his demons death and even Hell (Greek Hades) itself are sent to the lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14. How can you burn something that is not a real thing? Death is real, but an abstract concept. The God of the living had it recorded as an assurance to us at 1 Cor 15:26 says the last enemy to be abolished is death. That death that was brought upon us by Satan decieving Eve and Adam going along for the ride. What happened to Adam and Eve? They simply died. Other ones who were righteous in the Bible, they simply died. Same outcome.

Now if you really want to get deep. Tell me which is really worse: 1. Ceasing to exist? or 2. Being tormented eternally?

[Markinsa]

2 Corinthians 4

New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way, we never give up. ² We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this.

³ If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. ⁴ Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

⁵ You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake. ⁶ For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

⁷ We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves.

⁸ We are pressed on every side by troubles, but we are not crushed. We are perplexed, but not driven to despair. ⁹ We are hunted down, but never abandoned by God. We get knocked down, but we are not destroyed. ¹⁰ Through suffering, our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies.

¹¹ Yes, we live under constant danger of death because we serve Jesus, so that the life of Jesus will be evident in our dying bodies. ¹² So we live in the face of death, but this has resulted in eternal life for you.

¹³ But we continue to preach because we have the same kind of faith the psalmist had when he said, “I believed in God, so I spoke.” ¹⁴ We know that God, who raised the Lord Jesus, will also raise us with Jesus and present us to himself together with you. ¹⁵ All of this is for your benefit. And as God’s grace reaches more and more people, there will be great thanksgiving, and God will receive more and more glory.

¹⁶ That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. ¹⁷ For our present troubles are small and won’t last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! ¹⁸ So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.

-

[kliklok00]

Now if you really want to get deep. Tell me which is really worse: 1. Ceasing to exist? or 2. Being tormented eternally?

Personally, I think being tormented eternally is the worse form of punishment imaginable. Ceasing to exist is a form of punishment when compared to "eternal life in heaven," but if you take the comparison out of the picture, it isn't really a punishment. In other words, those who believe in and accept Jesus while they live in physical, human form will receive the "gift" of eternal life. Those who don't believe and accept Jesus wil be "punished" by not being given the gift of life. When I question various doctrinal belief systems or ideologies from the Christian faith, I often get chastised for not believing everything I am told is "truth." It has been my experience that most Christians believe in eternal torment for all non-believers...and this includes those who have lived/died and never heard of Jesus. From my study of the Bible, I have come to the conclusion that eternal torment is not for any man, woman or child. If one believes and accepts, one is rewarded with life ever after. If one denies, one is rewarded(?)...or should I say "receives"?...death ever after. Those who live see this as a punishment...those who die are not capable of seeing it for they no longer exist.

I say what I say from my study of the Bible...but let me also say I am often "confused" when it comes to things of the Bible...we do not have the original texts. What we have are copies of copies that have been dissected by theologians over centuries of time. This causes me to be suspect of my very own belief system! My point is I find it difficult at best to defend my beliefs...and thus I cannot in good conscience condemn someone who does not believe like I believe. I am not stating you (Ron) have condemned me...I'm just explaining my beliefs so you might understand where I am coming from.

2 Corinthians 4

New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way, we never give up. ² We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this.

³ If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. ⁴ Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

⁵ You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake. ⁶ For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

⁷ We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves.

⁸ We are pressed on every side by troubles, but we are not crushed. We are perplexed, but not driven to despair. ⁹ We are hunted down, but never abandoned by God. We get knocked down, but we are not destroyed. ¹⁰ Through suffering, our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies.

¹¹ Yes, we live under constant danger of death because we serve Jesus, so that the life of Jesus will be evident in our dying bodies. ¹² So we live in the face of death, but this has resulted in eternal life for you.

¹³ But we continue to preach because we have the same kind of faith the psalmist had when he said, “I believed in God, so I spoke.” ¹⁴ We know that God, who raised the Lord Jesus, will also raise us with Jesus and present us to himself together with you. ¹⁵ All of this is for your benefit. And as God’s grace reaches more and more people, there will be great thanksgiving, and God will receive more and more glory.

¹⁶ That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. ¹⁷ For our present troubles are small and won’t last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! ¹⁸ So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.

-

Amen...very uplifting. It is so easy to get distracted (at least in my world)...

[Markinsa]

Exactly! Countless people "feel led" by "God's word," yet, there are uncountable versions of the Bible available today with ZERO originals. With all the "choices" available, it is no wonder that battles have raged for centuries over doctrine, creed, etc. Gee whiz, how many various denominations of the Christian church are in existence...all claiming the same God? How does that work? It seems the Bible is man's attempt to explain who/what God is...and while the attempt is noble, God is still shrouded in a sense of mystery that (in my opinion) will never go away.

Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?

by Rich Deem

Introduction

Many skeptics believe that the Bible has been drastically changed over the centuries. In reality, the Bible has been translated into a number of different languages (first Latin, then English and other languages, see History of the Bible). However, the ancient manuscripts (written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) have been reliably copied over the centuries - with very few alterations.

Old Testament

How do we know the Bible has been kept in tact for over 2,000 years of copying? Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts which have an 800-1000 years gap between them we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies.

New Testament

There are tens of thousands of manuscripts from the New Testament, in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor. Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "GallicWars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).

Manuscript Evidence for Ancient Writings

Author Writtenv Earliest Copy Time Span# Mss.

Author: Caesar

Written: 100-44 B.C.

Earliest Copy: 900 A.D.

Time Span: 1,000 yrs

#MMS: 10

Author: Plato

Written: 427-347 B.C.

Earliest Copy: 900 A.D.

Time Span: 1,200 yrs

#MMS: 7

Author: Thucydides

Written: 460-400 B.C.

Earliest Copy: 900 A.D.

Time Span: 1,300 yrs

#MMS: 8

Author: Tacitus

Written: 100 A.D.

Earliest Copy: 1100 A.D.

Time Span: 1,000 yrs

#MMS: 20

Author: Suetonius

Written: 75-160 A.D.

Earliest Copy: 950 A.D.

Time Span: 800 yrs

#MMS: 8

Author: Homer (Iliad)

Written: 900 B.C.

Earliest Copy: 400 B.C.

Time Span: 500 yrs

#MMS: 643

Author: New Testament

Written: 40-100 A.D.

Earliest Copy: 125 A.D.

Time Span: 25-50 yrs

#MMS: 24,000

Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. In fact, it is nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus. These letters indicate that the entire New Testament was written in the first century A.D. In addition, there is internal evidence for a first century date for the writing of the New Testament. The book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul in prison, awaiting trial (Acts 28:30-31 (1)). It is likely that Luke wrote Acts during this time, before Paul finally appeared before Nero. This would be about 62-63 A.D., meaning that Acts and Luke were written within thirty years of ministry and death of Jesus. Another internal evidence is that there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke record Jesus' prophecy that the temple and city would be destroyed within that generation (Matthew 24:1-2 (2),Mark 13:1-2 (3), Luke 21:5-9,20-24,32(4)), no New Testament book refers to this event as having happened. If they had been written after 70 A.D., it is likely that letters written after 70 A.D. would have mentioned the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. As stated by Nelson Glueck, former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, and renowned Jewish archaeologist, "In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D."

Conclusion

With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be massive discrepancies - just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% (5) of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived. The Mormons, theological liberals as well as other cults and false religions such as Islam that claim the Bible has been tampered with are completely proven false by the extensive, historical manuscript evidence.

-

[kliklok00]

Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?

by Rich Deem

Conclusion

With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be massive discrepancies - just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% (5) of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived. The Mormons, theological liberals as well as other cults and false religions such as Islam that claim the Bible has been tampered with are completely proven false by the extensive, historical manuscript evidence.

-

Yes, I have read and studied many articles, books, theologians, etc., as to the reliability of the Bible...but lets not forget the early Roman Catholic Church canonized the Bible and included the Apocrypha...which later "reformers" decided to un-canonize. My point being, today's Catholics and some (if not most) Orthodox Christians believe the Apocrypha is part of the Bible, while today's Protestants accept the canonicity by the RCC of the Bible as long as the Apocrypha is not included...so how is one to decide which is biblical and which isn't? How does a manuscript become unBiblical? So I am right back to where I started...you quote Scripture and you can define each verse as saying a certain thing. I can take those same passages of Scripture and find "men of God" who will define them differently! I'm not arguing with you about their validity...I'm just stating that it is very difficult to decide what is really being said. I typically fall back on "His ways are not my ways...His thoughts are not my thoughts."

[Markinsa]

Yes, I have read and studied many articles, books, theologians, etc., as to the reliability of the Bible...but lets not forget the early Roman Catholic Church canonized the Bible and included the Apocrypha...which later "reformers" decided to un-canonize. My point being, today's Catholics and some (if not most) Orthodox Christians believe the Apocrypha is part of the Bible, while today's Protestants accept the canonicity by the RCC of the Bible as long as the Apocrypha is not included...so how is one to decide which is biblical and which isn't? How does a manuscript become unBiblical? So I am right back to where I started...you quote Scripture and you can define each verse as saying a certain thing. I can take those same passages of Scripture and find "men of God" who will define them differently! I'm not arguing with you about their validity...I'm just stating that it is very difficult to decide what is really being said. I typically fall back on "His ways are not my ways...His thoughts are not my thoughts."

Here's something to think about:

Jesus said:

John 5:39

³⁹ “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! ⁴⁰ Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

Everything in the Scriptures has to be true. If any part of it is a lie, then Jesus isn't who he said he was. The Old Testament is the PROOF Jesus used to identify and claim who he is. How could he rightfully claim his Divinity if any part of the old testament was false? He couldn't. In the article written above you see the reliablity of the scriptures. You can search the internet to find out the reasons why the Apocrypha aren't included in the Bible the Protestants use. Don't let Satan take you down the rabbit hole for rabbits that aren't there. Don't let him destract you and lead you away from the truth.

-+

[Ricky G.H.]

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Lucifer

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

the Authorized King James Version or KJV, is the word of God and the glory of the English language. For almost 400 years it has led multitudes to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and a whole new life in him and his word. The King James Bible has spread across the world reaching mankind generation after generation. It has saved, comforted, exhorted, rebuked, admonished, warned, enlightened, and edified without ceasing.

King James VI & I, founding monarch of Great Britain, not only commanded the translation of the Authorised Version but he actually took an active role in developing the rules for translators and encouraging the completion of the work. The King's College website states,

By divine providence, the King James Bible is still available to the true church today but, unfortunately, a plethora of modern perversions of the scriptures have sprouted forth from the earth like a field of so many tares. Men of corrupt minds have developed and sold many of these scurrilous productions that they call Bibles. Notwithstanding this grievous situation, the Authorised Version stands alone as the word of God. It is tried, true, and tested. For those that love it, the modern versions with their missing verses and inserted heresies are only impostors. The Authorized King James Bible alone speaks with the voice of authority and holiness and has done so for almost four centuries.

For those looking for God, the website at this link may help you in your journey. It contains articles on heaven, hell, comparative religion, and much more; for those that are saved, the Deception Series provides critical information and insight on these last days

Do you think that God does not or did not have the power by His Holy Spirit to inspire the writing of his word and not the power to have it physically done? of course he does. The Almighty whom holds every atom in his hand. The Authorized King James was transcribed

I beg you, please don't spend your time trying to disprove the Bible, but spend your short time that you may have trying to find the lord. none of us know how much time we may have left. May God have mercy on us all

[kliklok00]

I beg you, please don't spend your time trying to disprove the Bible, but spend your short time that you may have trying to find the lord. none of us know how much time we may have left. May God have mercy on us all

Ricky...if you are speaking directly to me, please don't fret. I'm not trying to disprove the Bible...I don't doubt it is the written Word of God. I am stating I do not understand it...as I grow older, I seem to come upon more questions than answers. I read/study the NKJV although I do like the NASB also. My debates on Dinar Vets (off topic) are meant to share experiences/thoughts of mine when it comes to things of God and hopefully find other's points of view to be helpful. On a more personal note, a little over 20 years ago (almost 25 now) I found myself at the bottom of the ladder so to speak. I did not believe in the God of the Bible at that time...yet, I did believe there must be a god of some sort (I believe in creation vs. big bang). I prayed daily for eight years for this "god" to direct me to the truth...it was a long journey but long story short, He lead me to Christ. From that point on I have grown in knowledge and understanding...until about four years ago where I hit a huge faith-shaking road block. I fall back to His promises...I will never leave you nor forsake you (even though at times I "feel" forsaken by Him). I also reflect back on people like Martin Luther...he suffered times of doubt so bad he became ill. But back to my point...don't fret about me and my spiritual condition---I am not out to "prove" God's word is wrong...I'm simply trying to get a deeper understanding of it (and thus, Him). :D

[dhardage]

I beg you, please don't spend your time trying to disprove the Bible, but spend your short time that you may have trying to find the lord. none of us know how much time we may have left. May God have mercy on us all

I'm sorry, but from what I have read here, and on other sites (mostly here though) .......God is not merciful at all. So praying won't help anyone. Once I find Him, IF I find Him, I will know absolutely that I will spend eternity in Hell for the slightest mistake. I would rather take my chances than live in fear for the rest of my life.

Edited July 24, 2012 by dhardage

[kliklok00]

I'm sorry, but from what I have read here, and on other sites (mostly here though) .......God is not merciful at all. So praying won't help anyone. Once I find Him, IF I find Him, I will know absolutely that I will spend eternity in Hell for the slightest mistake. I would rather take my chances than live in fear for the rest of my life.

This is definitely not the place to learn about the Bible (or the God of the Bible)...it is a good place to toss around opinions, advice, and such. Here is one of my opinions---don't live a life of fear! Try to live a life of thankfulness, joyfulness, compassion, giving and sharing. A life of expectancy (expect good things all the time). If you love life and love those who you have influence over, you actually accomplish a Biblical statute---love your neighbor as yourself.

As far as finding God...well, He will find you when the time comes as long as you are searching for Him. That sounds contrary, but from my experience, that is how it works...search for Him, live your life with joy, and out of nowhere He will reveal Himself (usually when you least expect it).

Like I said, this site is not a good place to learn about God...the best place to learn that is by personally reading the Bible. Oh, it can be extremely confusing at times, but for the most part, the Bible explains itself. You'll see where it teaches that God is indeed merciful. He is compassionate. He listens to and enjoys answering prayer. He will answer if you knock. He never breaks a promise. Also, I've learned from experience that He answers things (prayer, questions, etc.) in His time and not necessarily in the manner I want to hear/see an answer...but He answers nonetheless. He is a rock that one can anchor too...and again, from experience, if your are rooted and grounded in your spiritual life, all other aspects of life (no matter the circumstance) are typically enjoyed! Again, that sounds contrary, but it works...

[nstoolman1]

I'm sorry, but from what I have read here, and on other sites (mostly here though) ....... God is not merciful at all so praying won't help anyone. Once I find Him, IF I find Him, I will know absolutely that I will spend eternity in Hell for the slightest mistake. I would rather take my chances than live in fear for the rest of my life.

In the beginning God creates everything.

He creates the first humans.

His creations, while living in a perfect, place get stupid and listen to a smooth talking fallen angel.

They do what the Lord forbade them. They want to be like God and have the Knowledge of good and evil.

God knows in advance that his children will fail and sets into motion a plan to save his children.

Spin forward a few thousand years and a child is born to a humble shepherd and a virgin.

This child grows to be a man that walks and speaks to many and does His fathers work to save his children.

A man that willingly gave his life so that ALL might have eternal life with the Father.

How many of you would willingly climb on to a cross and have your hands and feet spiked to the wood and then allow a spear to be shoved in your side.

All for the sake of strangers.

You state "God is not merciful at all".

On the contrary. If all those things don't show a kind and merciful God then I don't know what to tell you.

You don't send your own Son to be sacrificed on a cross if you don't want to save your creations from eternal damnation.

I am not a scholarly individual nor am I a experienced debater. I may not have this perfect but I know my God loves me and has been very merciful to me. I can not count all the blessings I have received. Read "The Lord is my Shepherd" It is in Psalms. I think it is #23.

Satan wants you to doubt Gods mercy so you will stay seperated from Gods mercy and love.

[joekooltrips]

Yes, I have read and studied many articles, books, theologians, etc., as to the reliability of the Bible...but lets not forget the early Roman Catholic Church canonized the Bible and included the Apocrypha...which later "reformers" decided to un-canonize. My point being, today's Catholics and some (if not most) Orthodox Christians believe the Apocrypha is part of the Bible, while today's Protestants accept the canonicity by the RCC of the Bible as long as the Apocrypha is not included...so how is one to decide which is biblical and which isn't? How does a manuscript become unBiblical? So I am right back to where I started...you quote Scripture and you can define each verse as saying a certain thing. I can take those same passages of Scripture and find "men of God" who will define them differently! I'm not arguing with you about their validity...I'm just stating that it is very difficult to decide what is really being said. I typically fall back on "His ways are not my ways...His thoughts are not my thoughts."

Edited July 25, 2012 by joekooltrips

[joekooltrips]

Yes, I have read and studied many articles, books, theologians, etc., as to the reliability of the Bible...but lets not forget the early Roman Catholic Church canonized the Bible and included the Apocrypha...which later "reformers" decided to un-canonize. My point being, today's Catholics and some (if not most) Orthodox Christians believe the Apocrypha is part of the Bible, while today's Protestants accept the canonicity by the RCC of the Bible as long as the Apocrypha is not included...so how is one to decide which is biblical and which isn't? How does a manuscript become unBiblical? So I am right back to where I started...you quote Scripture and you can define each verse as saying a certain thing. I can take those same passages of Scripture and find "men of God" who will define them differently! I'm not arguing with you about their validity...I'm just stating that it is very difficult to decide what is really being said. I typically fall back on "His ways are not my ways...His thoughts are not my thoughts."

All the more reason to read these un-canonized books these so- called scholars took out, you'll begin to see the agenda these so-called scholars had/have for us.

In the beginning God creates everything.

He creates the first humans.

His creations, while living in a perfect, place get stupid and listen to a smooth talking fallen angel.

They do what the Lord forbade them. They want to be like God and have the Knowledge of good and evil.

God knows in advance that his children will fail and sets into motion a plan to save his children.

Spin forward a few thousand years and a child is born to a humble shepherd and a virgin.

This child grows to be a man that walks and speaks to many and does His fathers work to save his children.

A man that willingly gave his life so that ALL might have eternal life with the Father.

How many of you would willingly climb on to a cross and have your hands and feet spiked to the wood and then allow a spear to be shoved in your side.

All for the sake of strangers.

You state "God is not merciful at all".

On the contrary. If all those things don't show a kind and merciful God then I don't know what to tell you.

You don't send your own Son to be sacrificed on a cross if you don't want to save your creations from eternal damnation.

I am not a scholarly individual nor am I a experienced debater. I may not have this perfect but I know my God loves me and has been very merciful to me. I can not count all the blessings I have received. Read "The Lord is my Shepherd" It is in Psalms. I think it is #23.

Satan wants you to doubt Gods mercy so you will stay seperated from Gods mercy and love.

Curious to know what begining your talking about.

[Ricky G.H.]

I'm sorry, but from what I have read here, and on other sites (mostly here though) .......God is not merciful at all. So praying won't help anyone. Once I find Him, IF I find Him, I will know absolutely that I will spend eternity in Hell for the slightest mistake. I would rather take my chances than live in fear for the rest of my life.

dhardage, Please take a look at the following information. It will inform you with the simple truth how you can be saved. The Lord Jesus Christ of you, me and all of us when he was hanging on that old rugged cross a little over 2000 years ago. He loves you dhardage or who ever you my be reading this. God Bless

God’s Simple Plan of Salvation

My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.”

In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

First, my friend, you must realize you are a sinner. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. “For the wages [payment] of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.

“ . . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. “ . . . He hath made Him [Jesus, Who knew no sin] to be sin for us . . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev. 17:11). “ . . . without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22).

“ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.

My friend, “God . . . commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”

Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Savior.

“But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12).

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).

Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.

Surely, you realize you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.

In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Just pray: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of Your merciful grace. Amen.”

Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.

You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.

If His plan is not perfectly clear, read this tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your soul is worth more than all the world.

“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).

Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.

God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth:

Pray -- you talk to God.

Read your Bible -- God talks to you.

Witness -- you talk for God.

You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)

“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).

Copyright: Robert Ford Porter, 1991

[Ricky G.H.]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Ricky G.H.]

John, 3;16 For God so loved the World, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting Life.